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Rolling stops are how a fair number of folks drive, especially when there is no traffic on a cross street. I was in a small down growing up, and you'd slow to m

Rolling stops are how a fair number of folks drive, especially when there is no traffic on a cross street. I was in a small down growing up, and you'd slow to maybe 1-3 MPH, then turn. I know everyone on HN get's outraged by these decisions with FSD (and regulators do too). One thing I think this exposes is actually human driving. This is in fact common - the system is reflecting things back to us. I was on road up higher and the number of people on their phones is mind boggling. THey will literally sit at a green because they are so checked out, they will be texting while merging. It's madness.

grepfru_it 5y ago
today i approached a 4 way stop. the car to the left of me arrived later, as I was coming to a complete stop. well the driver to the left used a rolling stop and continued through the stop line. then he had the audacity to beep at me as he cut me off.
- katbyte 5y ago
  The issue there is not so much the rolling stop but not respect right of way. Personally I think almost all stop signs should be replaced with roundabouts as it better represents how people want to drive and allows for rolling stops but that’s just me
  - Sohcahtoa82 5y ago
    A stop sign at the end of a neighborhood road at the intersection of a main thorough street makes sense. But four-way stop signs absolutely should not be a thing. Anywhere a 4-way stop exists should certainly be a roundabout. The only problem is that roundabouts in the USA are exceedingly rare in most of the country. There would need to be a massive education campaign for them to work for most people. There are an alarming number of Americans that think that the people already on the roundabout have to yield for the people coming on.
    - ak217 5y ago
      It depends on the location. There are plenty of city intersections where 4-way stops are completely appropriate, and a roundabout would be impossible because it would have a much bigger footprint (and would block trucks and emergency vehicles).
      - beachy 5y ago
        Some places use virtual roundabouts, where the roundabout part is simply a small painted circle on the road. Emergency vehicles can drive straight over it
        caf 5y ago
        There's also formed roundabouts where most of it is raised but only by a small amount, so that emergency vehicles with large tires can drive straight over it but still discourages light vehicles from doing the same.
  - ak217 5y ago
    We have a heavily trafficked roundabout in our neighborhood and it's a big hazard to pedestrians because drivers take it way too fast and fail to yield to pedestrians in the crosswalks around it. Aside from that, the roundabout is great but takes up a lot more space than an intersection would. Maybe some bumps to calm the traffic approaching the roundabout would help. The problem that I see is just insufficient respect for traffic laws. I'm not sure what to do about it, aside from more police presence.
    - caf 5y ago
      Maybe some bumps to calm the traffic approaching the roundabout would help. Yes, that seems to be a somewhat common solution, eg: https://goo.gl/maps/XJ8SNDDrQBhBu1nH8 https://goo.gl/maps/XJ8SNDDrQBhBu1nH8
  - asdff 5y ago
    They kinda suck because American drivers stop at roundabouts even when the sign says to yield
  - FireBeyond 5y ago
    I do like the Australian perspective, where I learned to drive before I moved to the US. There's no concept of "right of way" on Australian roads. There's only "duty to yield". It might seem like a subtle concept/difference, but when it comes time to stand up in court/ be pulled over/ avoid an accident, it frames things better. Too many in the US are "it's my road, asshole, I got the right of way".
metabagel 5y ago
If a police officer sees you roll through a stop where I live (southern California), you will be ticketed.
- SuoDuanDao 5y ago
  If you lack the situational awareness to recognise a police car in the vicinity, it's probably better to actually come to a stop. I suspect that's part of why the law works well enough.
  - metabagel 5y ago
    I was going to argue with you that rolling stops are dangerous, but I ran into this interesting article which recommends replacing stop signs with more informative indicators: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/adaptive-behavior/201605/death-stop-sign https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/adaptive-behavior/20...
- asdff 5y ago
  If a police officer sees you do a donut in the middle of an intersection where i live (also southern california) you will just flee home and do it again tomorrow night. Traffic enforcement varies strikingly in California it seems.
AlexandrB 5y ago
Setting aside legality, It's hard to believe that Tesla's FSD has the ability to successfully evaluate its current context (weather, time of day, visibility, vehicle "body language") and decide when a rolling stop is safe and when it's not. Not that humans always do this well either, but resorting to rolling stops always while ignoring the circumstances seems like a bad move.
- tahoeskibum 5y ago
  I have FSD Beta and I can tell you I have never seen FSD do a rolling stop.
  - lolpython 5y ago
    It does it in “assertive” mode. https://www.techtimes.com/amp/articles/270296/20220109/tesla-full-self-driving-beta-assertive-mode-tesla-tesla-full-self-driving-beta-tesla-fsd.htm https://www.techtimes.com/amp/articles/270296/20220109/tesla...
  - bhauer 5y ago
    In the Assertive profile, it can do rolling stops, but only under circumstances where it is very safe, such as four-way stops with no other driving vehicles present.
  - qubitcoder 5y ago
    I have FSD Beta as well. Even in Assertive mode, I've never actually seen it do a rolling stop, including rural areas with nothing around. I'm not saying it doesn't happen. In fact, I'd prefer it didn't--or at least provide an option to toggle it on and off.
deleted 5y ago
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spamizbad 5y ago
Right, but the promise of self-driving vehicles is about them being safer than humans. Humans are irrational and impulsive. Those actions disrupt the flow of traffic. The idea is that a self-driving vehicle can be safer than a human because it will do things like follow speed limits, always come to a complete stop, etc. If self-driving vehicles are simply going to operate like facsimiles of human driving behavior their benefits are greatly diminished.
- bhauer 5y ago
  I think as long as autonomous drive systems are intermingling on regular roads with human drivers, they need to behave like human drivers. Human drivers will get angry with autonomous systems, especially during rush hour, if they adhere strictly to all laws such as full stops and speed limits. As others have pointed out, this may force us to contend with the laws first since it's clear local enforcement and laws are not aligned. When a majority of driving is autonomous, laws will likely evolve slightly. If/when all driving is autonomous, then things get really interesting: short following distance, peer-to-peer intersections without stops, etc.
  - newaccount74 5y ago
    Humans get outraged all the time. If you drive exactly at the speed limit, they get angry, if you drive 5km/h over they get angry that you don't drive 10km/h over it, others get angry that you are tailgating them when they are driving exactly as fast as allowed and will brake check you --- I really think autonomous cars should just mechanically stick to the rules, then they are at least predictable.
- jliptzin 5y ago
  I don’t see anything wrong with copying human driving behavior except without any risk of drunk driving, driving and texting, falling asleep at the wheel, having a heart attack or stroke at the wheel etc. The average truck driver appears to be morbidly obese and gets little to no physical exercise, yet they drive enormous trucks that can do insane amounts of damage if they suffer a heart attack or stroke, personally I can’t wait for self driving vehicles to come online. EDIT: Not really sure why I am getting downvoted for this, you can search google and get maybe hundreds if not thousands of results about truck/bus drivers and heart attacks/strokes causing deadly crashes, but they get maybe 1% of the media attention of an FSD video rolling through a stop sign https://fox4kc.com/news/family-says-driver-of-tractor-trailer-had-heart-attack-before-cass-county-crash-that-killed-5/amp/ https://fox4kc.com/news/family-says-driver-of-tractor-traile...
elif 5y ago
Not to mention that a rolling stop itself is inherently safer when a 360 view is evaluated 200 times per second with superhuman response latency.
- mikeyouse 5y ago
  Sure in a perfect world.. but then again.. https://twitter.com/TaylorOgan/status/1488187856749318154 https://twitter.com/TaylorOgan/status/1488187856749318154
  - elif 5y ago
    The Tesla crept into the parked cars to see around the corner, and the driver applied brakes.. I don't see any exceptional behavior here other than the driver using the touchscreen while driving.
    - elif 5y ago
      like literally im curious what your point is? are you assuming that the car would have otherwise moved forward? there was no AEB alert so there was not an unanticipated vehicle detected...
      - mikeyouse 5y ago
        That's exactly the problem -- the driver had to hit the brakes because his car had started to pull into the path of a fast-moving UPS truck that his Tesla doesn't pick up until the last second. The "360º view" scanned "200 times per second" and acted upon with "superhuman latency" still randomly decides to pull out in front of traffic. Either the cameras are buggy or the software is, but we can do better.
        elif 5y ago
        i dont think you understand the clip. it is a right turn onto a 2 lane road, where the right lane is protected by parked cars. the tesla pulls into the PROTECTED lane to see around the parked cars. you are assuming that it would have then decided to pull into traffic, but that belief is pretty unfounded. When FSD cannot see well enough to decide that a turn is safe, it will literally sit there for minutes. Yes, i am quite certain it would have done that in the protected parking lane.
bhauer 5y ago
Rolling stops were only enabled in the "Aggressive" FSD Beta driving profile, one of three available profiles. Several FSD Beta testers used the Aggressive profile in areas where rolling stops are common. They did this because when using the other profiles, they would be embarrassed or honked at because their car insisted on always coming to a full stop. Anyone familiar with driving in Los Angeles knows that when it's safe to do so (e.g., when there is no cross traffic on a turn), a rolling stop is extremely common. So common that it is plausible that people behind you might honk if you insist on doing a full stop and then cautiously proceed. Especially during rush-hour. By the same token, most people in Los Angeles drive 5 to 10 MPH over the posted speed limits. Driving at the posted speed limit will cause other drivers to hate you.
- jjulius 5y ago
  I truly don't understand this line of reasoning. "Oh no, I've been honked at! Someone in a car, who I'll never meet, doesn't like me! I guess I'd better start driving a bit more unsafely so that people don't honk at me!". I'll ignore someone honking at me if it means I'm driving more safely. And I've driven in LA plenty of times. It might be the norm for LA drivers, sure, but I would also argue that that whole region could use at least a bit more patience when on the road. The speed limit differential gets into a bit more of a grey area, though, in regards to laws that require you to maintain a speed that's in line "with the flow of traffic". It's similar in Atlanta; posted speed limit might be 55, but you're likely going to be going at least 70 in the slow lane in order to maintain the flow.
  - camjohnson26 5y ago
    To be fair, road rage shootings on highways have been trending up. There’s some LA drivers I wouldn’t want to upset either.
    - jjulius 5y ago
      Last time I was there I had someone get out of their vehicle and get angry as fuck at me - screaming, calling me a piece of shit, mother fucker, etc. - because they turned into oncoming traffic (my lane) to get around a garbage truck, found me there driving in my right of way, and demanded I back up and make room for them. Everyone else on the road in LA seem generally grumpy and impatient. Granted, I usually drive pretty fast and am aware of my tendency to be impatient behind the wheel, but it seems, anecdotally at least, like LA is worse than many other areas in that regard. The first 20 minutes driving around after I leave LAX are usually spent thinking, "I'm crazy, but these people put me to goddamn shame and I need to adapt quickly," lol.
Johnny555 5y ago
Driving drunk is also how a fair number of people drive, especially in remote areas when home is far from the bar. I'm not sure that modeling human behavior is the right way to design a self driving car.
- harambae 5y ago
  The human behavior here (slow rolling stop signs) at least in theory can prevent being rear-ended by someone who is used to everyone else in the area doing that (of course it's the rear-ender's fault in a crash... but still an annoyance for everyone involved) There's no benefit to the computer swerving in and out of the lane like a drunk driver, or taking an intentionally inefficient route like a crooked taxi driver, or other pure-downside criminality.
  - Johnny555 5y ago
    The human behavior can also result in an accident when a car or pedestrian that expects the car to stop walks out in front of the car. In theory, the car should be paying attention in all directions at the same time and won't get into an accident, but car sensors are not infallible, especially when detecting pedestrians, moreso if they are partially obscured by foliage, newspaper stands, etc. Automated cars should stop 100% of the time at intersections where they are required to do so. When the stop signs are changed to "Self-driving yield" signs, then the cars can do a rolling stop. So my point wasn't that cars should act like drunk drivers, but that modeling human behaviors is not the right mindset for self-driving cars.
r00fus 5y ago
4-way stops are so fuel inefficient. Would traffic circles be more efficient with automated vehicles?
- Ekaros 5y ago
  Or equal crossings that is yield to right. Or just have yield signs. Both means that no need to stop unless other traffic.
  - r00fus 5y ago
    Fully blind intersections are a nightmare for 4-way yields. Not to mention non-automotive traffic that may not be seen. Easy to retrofit a 4-way intersection into a roundabout.
deleted 5y ago
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noobermin 5y ago
This sort of thinking is why America has the highest deaths and injuries on the road per capita of any developed country.
- alanh 5y ago
  Is it, or do we simply have more miles driven per capita? We are a big country. Not Monaco, where you could walk to anywhere else in Monaco to join a friend for breakfast
  - iainmerrick 5y ago
    Wikipedia has a decent breakdown with multiple metrics: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-related_death_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-r... Looks to me like the US is still on the highish side for deaths per vehicle-mile compared to the EU and Canada, although not that high by worldwide standards.
Osiris 5y ago
No one wants to crash their car. People do rolling stops because they are generally perfectly safe.

grepfru_it 5y ago

today i approached a 4 way stop. the car to the left of me arrived later, as I was coming to a complete stop. well the driver to the left used a rolling stop and continued through the stop line. then he had the audacity to beep at me as he cut me off.

katbyte 5y ago
The issue there is not so much the rolling stop but not respect right of way. Personally I think almost all stop signs should be replaced with roundabouts as it better represents how people want to drive and allows for rolling stops but that’s just me
- Sohcahtoa82 5y ago
  A stop sign at the end of a neighborhood road at the intersection of a main thorough street makes sense. But four-way stop signs absolutely should not be a thing. Anywhere a 4-way stop exists should certainly be a roundabout. The only problem is that roundabouts in the USA are exceedingly rare in most of the country. There would need to be a massive education campaign for them to work for most people. There are an alarming number of Americans that think that the people already on the roundabout have to yield for the people coming on.
  - ak217 5y ago
    It depends on the location. There are plenty of city intersections where 4-way stops are completely appropriate, and a roundabout would be impossible because it would have a much bigger footprint (and would block trucks and emergency vehicles).
    - beachy 5y ago
      Some places use virtual roundabouts, where the roundabout part is simply a small painted circle on the road. Emergency vehicles can drive straight over it
      - caf 5y ago
        There's also formed roundabouts where most of it is raised but only by a small amount, so that emergency vehicles with large tires can drive straight over it but still discourages light vehicles from doing the same.
- ak217 5y ago
  We have a heavily trafficked roundabout in our neighborhood and it's a big hazard to pedestrians because drivers take it way too fast and fail to yield to pedestrians in the crosswalks around it. Aside from that, the roundabout is great but takes up a lot more space than an intersection would. Maybe some bumps to calm the traffic approaching the roundabout would help. The problem that I see is just insufficient respect for traffic laws. I'm not sure what to do about it, aside from more police presence.
  - caf 5y ago
    Maybe some bumps to calm the traffic approaching the roundabout would help. Yes, that seems to be a somewhat common solution, eg: https://goo.gl/maps/XJ8SNDDrQBhBu1nH8 https://goo.gl/maps/XJ8SNDDrQBhBu1nH8
- asdff 5y ago
  They kinda suck because American drivers stop at roundabouts even when the sign says to yield
- FireBeyond 5y ago
  I do like the Australian perspective, where I learned to drive before I moved to the US. There's no concept of "right of way" on Australian roads. There's only "duty to yield". It might seem like a subtle concept/difference, but when it comes time to stand up in court/ be pulled over/ avoid an accident, it frames things better. Too many in the US are "it's my road, asshole, I got the right of way".

metabagel 5y ago

If a police officer sees you roll through a stop where I live (southern California), you will be ticketed.

SuoDuanDao 5y ago
If you lack the situational awareness to recognise a police car in the vicinity, it's probably better to actually come to a stop. I suspect that's part of why the law works well enough.
- metabagel 5y ago
  I was going to argue with you that rolling stops are dangerous, but I ran into this interesting article which recommends replacing stop signs with more informative indicators: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/adaptive-behavior/201605/death-stop-sign https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/adaptive-behavior/20...
asdff 5y ago
If a police officer sees you do a donut in the middle of an intersection where i live (also southern california) you will just flee home and do it again tomorrow night. Traffic enforcement varies strikingly in California it seems.

AlexandrB 5y ago

Setting aside legality, It's hard to believe that Tesla's FSD has the ability to successfully evaluate its current context (weather, time of day, visibility, vehicle "body language") and decide when a rolling stop is safe and when it's not. Not that humans always do this well either, but resorting to rolling stops always while ignoring the circumstances seems like a bad move.

tahoeskibum 5y ago
I have FSD Beta and I can tell you I have never seen FSD do a rolling stop.
- lolpython 5y ago
  It does it in “assertive” mode. https://www.techtimes.com/amp/articles/270296/20220109/tesla-full-self-driving-beta-assertive-mode-tesla-tesla-full-self-driving-beta-tesla-fsd.htm https://www.techtimes.com/amp/articles/270296/20220109/tesla...
- bhauer 5y ago
  In the Assertive profile, it can do rolling stops, but only under circumstances where it is very safe, such as four-way stops with no other driving vehicles present.
- qubitcoder 5y ago
  I have FSD Beta as well. Even in Assertive mode, I've never actually seen it do a rolling stop, including rural areas with nothing around. I'm not saying it doesn't happen. In fact, I'd prefer it didn't--or at least provide an option to toggle it on and off.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

spamizbad 5y ago

Right, but the promise of self-driving vehicles is about them being safer than humans. Humans are irrational and impulsive. Those actions disrupt the flow of traffic. The idea is that a self-driving vehicle can be safer than a human because it will do things like follow speed limits, always come to a complete stop, etc. If self-driving vehicles are simply going to operate like facsimiles of human driving behavior their benefits are greatly diminished.

bhauer 5y ago
I think as long as autonomous drive systems are intermingling on regular roads with human drivers, they need to behave like human drivers. Human drivers will get angry with autonomous systems, especially during rush hour, if they adhere strictly to all laws such as full stops and speed limits. As others have pointed out, this may force us to contend with the laws first since it's clear local enforcement and laws are not aligned. When a majority of driving is autonomous, laws will likely evolve slightly. If/when all driving is autonomous, then things get really interesting: short following distance, peer-to-peer intersections without stops, etc.
- newaccount74 5y ago
  Humans get outraged all the time. If you drive exactly at the speed limit, they get angry, if you drive 5km/h over they get angry that you don't drive 10km/h over it, others get angry that you are tailgating them when they are driving exactly as fast as allowed and will brake check you --- I really think autonomous cars should just mechanically stick to the rules, then they are at least predictable.
jliptzin 5y ago
I don’t see anything wrong with copying human driving behavior except without any risk of drunk driving, driving and texting, falling asleep at the wheel, having a heart attack or stroke at the wheel etc. The average truck driver appears to be morbidly obese and gets little to no physical exercise, yet they drive enormous trucks that can do insane amounts of damage if they suffer a heart attack or stroke, personally I can’t wait for self driving vehicles to come online. EDIT: Not really sure why I am getting downvoted for this, you can search google and get maybe hundreds if not thousands of results about truck/bus drivers and heart attacks/strokes causing deadly crashes, but they get maybe 1% of the media attention of an FSD video rolling through a stop sign https://fox4kc.com/news/family-says-driver-of-tractor-trailer-had-heart-attack-before-cass-county-crash-that-killed-5/amp/ https://fox4kc.com/news/family-says-driver-of-tractor-traile...

elif 5y ago

Not to mention that a rolling stop itself is inherently safer when a 360 view is evaluated 200 times per second with superhuman response latency.

mikeyouse 5y ago
Sure in a perfect world.. but then again.. https://twitter.com/TaylorOgan/status/1488187856749318154 https://twitter.com/TaylorOgan/status/1488187856749318154
- elif 5y ago
  The Tesla crept into the parked cars to see around the corner, and the driver applied brakes.. I don't see any exceptional behavior here other than the driver using the touchscreen while driving.
  - elif 5y ago
    like literally im curious what your point is? are you assuming that the car would have otherwise moved forward? there was no AEB alert so there was not an unanticipated vehicle detected...
    - mikeyouse 5y ago
      That's exactly the problem -- the driver had to hit the brakes because his car had started to pull into the path of a fast-moving UPS truck that his Tesla doesn't pick up until the last second. The "360º view" scanned "200 times per second" and acted upon with "superhuman latency" still randomly decides to pull out in front of traffic. Either the cameras are buggy or the software is, but we can do better.
      - elif 5y ago
        i dont think you understand the clip. it is a right turn onto a 2 lane road, where the right lane is protected by parked cars. the tesla pulls into the PROTECTED lane to see around the parked cars. you are assuming that it would have then decided to pull into traffic, but that belief is pretty unfounded. When FSD cannot see well enough to decide that a turn is safe, it will literally sit there for minutes. Yes, i am quite certain it would have done that in the protected parking lane.

bhauer 5y ago

Rolling stops were only enabled in the "Aggressive" FSD Beta driving profile, one of three available profiles. Several FSD Beta testers used the Aggressive profile in areas where rolling stops are common. They did this because when using the other profiles, they would be embarrassed or honked at because their car insisted on always coming to a full stop. Anyone familiar with driving in Los Angeles knows that when it's safe to do so (e.g., when there is no cross traffic on a turn), a rolling stop is extremely common. So common that it is plausible that people behind you might honk if you insist on doing a full stop and then cautiously proceed. Especially during rush-hour. By the same token, most people in Los Angeles drive 5 to 10 MPH over the posted speed limits. Driving at the posted speed limit will cause other drivers to hate you.

jjulius 5y ago
I truly don't understand this line of reasoning. "Oh no, I've been honked at! Someone in a car, who I'll never meet, doesn't like me! I guess I'd better start driving a bit more unsafely so that people don't honk at me!". I'll ignore someone honking at me if it means I'm driving more safely. And I've driven in LA plenty of times. It might be the norm for LA drivers, sure, but I would also argue that that whole region could use at least a bit more patience when on the road. The speed limit differential gets into a bit more of a grey area, though, in regards to laws that require you to maintain a speed that's in line "with the flow of traffic". It's similar in Atlanta; posted speed limit might be 55, but you're likely going to be going at least 70 in the slow lane in order to maintain the flow.
- camjohnson26 5y ago
  To be fair, road rage shootings on highways have been trending up. There’s some LA drivers I wouldn’t want to upset either.
  - jjulius 5y ago
    Last time I was there I had someone get out of their vehicle and get angry as fuck at me - screaming, calling me a piece of shit, mother fucker, etc. - because they turned into oncoming traffic (my lane) to get around a garbage truck, found me there driving in my right of way, and demanded I back up and make room for them. Everyone else on the road in LA seem generally grumpy and impatient. Granted, I usually drive pretty fast and am aware of my tendency to be impatient behind the wheel, but it seems, anecdotally at least, like LA is worse than many other areas in that regard. The first 20 minutes driving around after I leave LAX are usually spent thinking, "I'm crazy, but these people put me to goddamn shame and I need to adapt quickly," lol.

Johnny555 5y ago

Driving drunk is also how a fair number of people drive, especially in remote areas when home is far from the bar. I'm not sure that modeling human behavior is the right way to design a self driving car.

harambae 5y ago
The human behavior here (slow rolling stop signs) at least in theory can prevent being rear-ended by someone who is used to everyone else in the area doing that (of course it's the rear-ender's fault in a crash... but still an annoyance for everyone involved) There's no benefit to the computer swerving in and out of the lane like a drunk driver, or taking an intentionally inefficient route like a crooked taxi driver, or other pure-downside criminality.
- Johnny555 5y ago
  The human behavior can also result in an accident when a car or pedestrian that expects the car to stop walks out in front of the car. In theory, the car should be paying attention in all directions at the same time and won't get into an accident, but car sensors are not infallible, especially when detecting pedestrians, moreso if they are partially obscured by foliage, newspaper stands, etc. Automated cars should stop 100% of the time at intersections where they are required to do so. When the stop signs are changed to "Self-driving yield" signs, then the cars can do a rolling stop. So my point wasn't that cars should act like drunk drivers, but that modeling human behaviors is not the right mindset for self-driving cars.

r00fus 5y ago

4-way stops are so fuel inefficient. Would traffic circles be more efficient with automated vehicles?

Ekaros 5y ago
Or equal crossings that is yield to right. Or just have yield signs. Both means that no need to stop unless other traffic.
- r00fus 5y ago
  Fully blind intersections are a nightmare for 4-way yields. Not to mention non-automotive traffic that may not be seen. Easy to retrofit a 4-way intersection into a roundabout.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

noobermin 5y ago

This sort of thinking is why America has the highest deaths and injuries on the road per capita of any developed country.

alanh 5y ago
Is it, or do we simply have more miles driven per capita? We are a big country. Not Monaco, where you could walk to anywhere else in Monaco to join a friend for breakfast
- iainmerrick 5y ago
  Wikipedia has a decent breakdown with multiple metrics: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-related_death_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-r... Looks to me like the US is still on the highish side for deaths per vehicle-mile compared to the EU and Canada, although not that high by worldwide standards.

Osiris 5y ago

No one wants to crash their car. People do rolling stops because they are generally perfectly safe.