47 ms·

Non-Tesla Supercharger Pilot

89 points by punnerud 5y ago

dontreact 5y ago
Interesting how much hate I have seen for how Tesla didn’t do this before and how little enthusiasm or support there seems to be for this. This seems great!
- SQueeeeeL 5y ago
  The charging infrastructure has already been somewhat built out using the standard from other companies. Tesla having their own port caused a bifurcation which ultimately harmed EVs...
  - wlesieutre 5y ago
    Back in 2014 Tesla offered up access to all of their supercharger related patents for free, but anyone who wanted to take advantage would have to agree to never attempt to enforce any other patent against Tesla or against any other company using your technology to make electric vehicles. So obviously no one used it because "give out free access to all of your future electric car technology forever" is a pretty shit trade for "we'll share our couple year head start on charging" in the long term, and now we have incompatible charging networks.
  - surfmike 5y ago
    I’ve been to non-Tesla charging stations with three different port types (regular charging, then CCS and Chademo for high speed). So I wouldn’t blame Tesla entirely for that.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- mupuff1234 5y ago
  For a company that received billions in subsidies having open infrastructure really shouldn't be a choice IMO. But the government is probably more to blame for not making it mandatory.
  - toomuchtodo 5y ago
    No other automaker built a network [1], and Tesla used vehicle profits from the S and X to do it. The subsidies received were used to bootstrap manufacturing capacity, and all other automakers were eligible for them if they had built EVs (Tesla's DOE loan was paid back 9 years early, with interest [2]). Only recently did they open a manufacturing facility in China solely to build Supercharger stations [3] (older versions of Superchargers were bespoke, built with Model S and X stacked inverters; newer versions are purpose built). TLDR Tesla recognized the charging story was crucial to EV sales, and spent the capital to have a superior product. To this day, no other automaker is doing the same. [1] Electrify America doesn't count, as it was funded out of VW's Dieselgate settlement, which is also why it couldn't be VW branded and the EA brand was created: https://www.cnbc.com/2019/05/10/vws-2-billion-penalty-for-diesel-scam-builds-ev-charging-network-across-us.html https://www.cnbc.com/2019/05/10/vws-2-billion-penalty-for-di... [2] https://www.tesla.com/blog/tesla-repays-department-energy-loan-nine-years-early https://www.tesla.com/blog/tesla-repays-department-energy-lo... (May 22, 2013: Tesla Motors announced that it has paid off the entire loan awarded to the company by the Department of Energy in 2010. In addition to payments made in 2012 and Q1 2013, today’s wire of almost half a billion dollars ($451.8M) repays the full loan facility with interest. Following this payment, Tesla will be the only American car company to have fully repaid the government.) [3] https://insideevs.com/news/531709/tesla-completes-supercharger-factory/ https://insideevs.com/news/531709/tesla-completes-supercharg... (Tesla Completes Supercharger Factory In Shanghai; It will make 10,000 units (stalls) per year.)
    - clouddrover 5y ago
      > No other automaker built a network False. In North America, Electrify America (https://www.electrifyamerica.com/ https://www.electrifyamerica.com/) and Electrify Canada (https://www.electrify-canada.ca/ https://www.electrify-canada.ca/) are automaker built. Trying to claim it "doesn't count" is just childish. GM is funding EVgo's build of 350 kW chargers: https://insideevs.com/news/546869/gm-evgo-boost-charging-plan/ https://insideevs.com/news/546869/gm-evgo-boost-charging-pla... And of course you have Ionity in Europe: https://ionity.eu/ https://ionity.eu/
- davedx 5y ago
  I cautiously support this. I'm glad they're monitoring congestion closely :)
- ericmay 5y ago
  I think it's because if you're a Tesla owner, it's hard to be against this but it's really hard to be for it when you know that with superchargers in some locations/routes being at insane capacity that this will only make things worse. So if you own a Tesla and you're concerned you'll be shouted down. If you were previously complaining then now you don't have as much to complain about so you just don't post. I'm really curious to see how Tesla handles this. Will there be a surcharge or will it be more expensive for non-Tesla EVs? Will you be able to get priority in some fashion? Will Tesla, if it's truly an energy company and not an automaker begin to slowly not make as many cars? I mean if I can get a Model Y version of a Mercedes for $5k less and use all of Tesla's infrastructure ya know maybe that's an attractive option? ETC. As an investor though I love it because my thesis is Tesla is just a slow-moving all-encompassing energy conglomerate that makes cars and this is furthering that thesis.
  - ProblemFactory 5y ago
    > superchargers in some locations/routes being at insane capacity that this will only make things worse If that happens, Tesla should set a price for other EVs which makes it profitable for them, and then just build as many charging locations as there is demand for. Everyone wins.
    - ericmay 5y ago
      Yea I'm generally onboard - how long until people start complaining about the "Tesla Tax" though? Or "why do I have to use the Tesla app"?
  - fonix 5y ago
    Unless I misread the article it will be more expensive for non-tesla evs (the mentioned about the cost going towards supporting just that and building it out furhter), tesla's would pay the same. There would be no priority given either way afaik.
wlesieutre 5y ago
This has been going on for a few months now, and will probably spread in Europe. Remains to be seen what happens in the US, since Tesla has their own charging connector here. European Teslas use CCS, but obviously that wasn't an option for the first years of the US supercharger built-out, so it seems we're stuck with their proprietary connector here. Tesla does appear to be planning some superchargers in Texas with CCS connectors available, because they're required as a condition of grant money: https://insideevs.com/news/556749/tesla-grant-application-superchargers-texas/ https://insideevs.com/news/556749/tesla-grant-application-su... Could be they'll start doing that at other new construction if they want to bring non-Tesla supercharger access to the US. Or maybe they can make a Tesla-to-CCS cable adapter and sell it to people who want to join the supercharger club. Or maybe they won't do anything.
- rosstex 5y ago
  >European Teslas use CCS, but obviously that wasn't an option for the first years of the US supercharger built-out Why not?
  - jefftk 5y ago
    CCS didn't exist yet: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_Charging_System https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_Charging_System
    - wlesieutre 5y ago
      Doing a bit of looking, CCS was standardized in 2011 and first couple charging stations went up in 2012, which is actually similar timing to Tesla's superchargers. But I would assume the Supercharger system was designed in-concert with the Model S and they were well along in development. If they really wanted to they probably could have got on board in 2011 with the other manufacturers and made it happen. I thought CCS came along a couple of years later. Add that alongside the UX to reasons I don't want a Tesla.
      - InTheArena 5y ago
ocdtrekkie 5y ago
"With your Tesla, you’ll also have access to the lowest Supercharger pricing." This feels like something that would be illegal if say, a gas station had a deal to give better gas prices to Toyota owners.
- joenathanone 5y ago
  My old S has free supercharging for life, the cost is subsidized in the price of the vehicle.
- cmer 5y ago
  If Toyota had their own gas stations, I'm pretty sure they could offer a discount to their customers. Why not?
  - __s 5y ago
    Antitrust
    - fastball 5y ago
      How does that violate any antitrust laws?
  - mminer237 5y ago
    I think the main issue would be tying under antitrust law, although that probably would only apply under the current DoJ approach if they sold the gas below cost.
- speedgoose 5y ago
  If gas station were invented today, each company would require a monthly subscription.
- atwebb 5y ago
  Gas stations already do this, they offer deals to certain credit cards, grocery chains, or even if you buy a car wash.
mft_ 5y ago
Ooof, this makes me conflicted. On the one hand, it's great to share empty supercharger capacity with all EVs, making EVs generally more attractive - and of course, more money for Tesla from charging maybe = even more superchargers. On the other hand, the biggest challenges with an EV vs. ICE car are (obviously) range and charging. With this in mind, the supercharger network, and supercharger capacity generally being ample, probably rate pretty high when choosing a Tesla. It mightn't take many instances of having to wait to charge due to non-Teslas filling up supercharger capacity for that USP to fade and the Tesla ownership experience to be significantly damaged.
- davedx 5y ago
  I'm not a frequent user of superchargers. So far I have had one experience where I had to wait about 25 minutes before a stall became available (a Tesla-only supercharger with quite a lot of capacity too). It is unusual enough that it doesn't damage my ownership experience... petrol stations have queues too when they're busy.
- Navarr 5y ago
  I mean, essentially what's happening here is that Tesla is exploring becoming the replacement of a Gas Station. The benefit of not waiting by being a Tesla customer is a pretty high benefit, but could you imagine that same benefit with ICE vehicles? A gas station that you can't fuel at unless you have a specific brand of car? This change was and is likely inevitable.
  - _fat_santa 5y ago
    > The benefit of not waiting by being a Tesla customer is a pretty high benefit, but could you imagine that same benefit with ICE vehicles? A gas station that you can't fuel at unless you have a specific brand of car? The best way Tesla can solve this is by building more of them. So you would have way more cars using the chargers but you would have physically more chargers so it would even out (in the best case scenario). What has me wondering is, how will charge time affect the economics of these places? If you pull into just about any gas station now, you can fill your tank in 5-10minutes, more or less depending on the pump but it's exponentially less time than even waiting for an EV to charge. With more folks stopped in these places for longer, I wonder how the economics of these places will evolve.
i_am_proteus 5y ago
>With this pilot, some stations are now accessible to Non-Tesla EV drivers in selected countries via the Tesla app Why should it be necessary to install software in order to fuel a vehicle? What benefit exists for the consumer? I have noticed this as a trend in physical services, I was asked by a grocery store to install software prior to purchasing groceries, however they were gracious after I declined, and permitted me to purchase groceries using only my debit card.
- meragrin_ 5y ago
  > Why should it be necessary to install software in order to fuel a vehicle? What benefit exists for the consumer? As far as gas pumps and chargers, less chance of the interface being vandalized? In Tesla's case, I would imagine it is more an easy adaptation to current infrastructure without major changes to the chargers themselves.
- davedx 5y ago
  It's not necessary for regular charging poles, but you do need some way to identify yourself. Using an app is a bit more environmentally friendly than mailing out loads of plastic cards. Personally I don't know why chargepoles don't just support chip and pin, at least in Europe - almost all parking places here do now.
  - kzrdude 5y ago
    Why identify yourself? Isn't it enough to use a payment system?
    - barelysapient 5y ago
      Probably because Tesla isn't into retail point of sale and would rather reuse existing app based infrastructure.
      - natch 5y ago
        Also important to note Tesla drivers don’t need to use the app for charging. Although it does have helpful features if they do, like being able to check on the charge remotely. The described experience of selecting a charger, pressing start charging / stop charging etc. is only for non-Teslas because they don’t have the integration.
o_m 5y ago
It's a weird move by Tesla. I haven't considered any other EV brand because of Tesla's superior charging network.
- hadrien01 5y ago
  That's probably thanks to the EU. The EC and some EEA governments have been pushing Tesla to open up their network, notably Germany and Norway.
- toomuchtodo 5y ago
  Tesla will receive government subsidies for opening up its network. Considering the $600 million they've spent to deploy it globally, that seems reasonable.
- flurdy 5y ago
  I think that is changing. In certain countries the alternative networks are now comparable. And I think this is also to increase their own revenue. If it affects the availability for their own cars they can just ramp up the non-Tesla prices. It may also be to be one step ahead of legislation that might make it mandatory. Or as part of government grants etc. I did notice they were only opening this up on the less busy superchargers.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- Bayart 5y ago
  It's only weird if you think it's really Tesla's choice. It's not happening in the EU for no reason.
api 5y ago
They should make a Chademo adapter. It would take some doing since it's a bit more than a simple dongle, but there are a lot of cars out there that have fewer fast charge options. I have a Leaf and would buy this and get a Tesla account in a heartbeat if they offered this.
- haspok 5y ago
  Chademo is already deprecated in Europe (where this trial is happening), so don't hold your breath. If you need fast DC charging, sorry, but you bought the wrong car...
  - api 5y ago
    It's apparently possible to convert one to CCS, but that would cost more than a mega-dongle. There's talk of Nissan making a kit. It's basically the jack plus a software update so it's not that involved. They've sold CCS Leaf models in other markets. There are a good number of Chademo chargers around here. Tesla has better coverage though so it would be nice.
- Tagbert 5y ago
  In the US, Nissan has abandoned Chademo. All newer models will use CCS. I would not expect any more Chademo charger stations to be added.
rohan_ 5y ago
Commodify your complement https://www.gwern.net/Complement https://www.gwern.net/Complement
aeharding 5y ago
The electric car is here to save the auto industry, not the planet.
- llampx 5y ago
  Agreed. And this is from someone who would like to buy one. I have no misgivings that I am saving the planet by doing so.
- xeromal 5y ago
  I'm curious how this is related to the article? lol
  - aeharding 5y ago
    > Launched in November 2021, our Non-Tesla Supercharger pilot will continue to expand to new sites and countries in support of our mission to accelerate the world’s transition to sustainable energy.
nkotov 5y ago
I wish they would build out more stations first. We have three Supercharger stations in my area within a 50 mile radius and every time I had to use one, the lot was almost always full.
martin_a 5y ago
Interesting move. While I understand some of the fears of Tesla owners about congested charging stations, as a non-Tesla EV owner I appreciate this opening. I'm willing to pay more for good infrastructure and Tesla sure is providing that. So is Ionity and fastned but most others (speaking about Germany) fail to do that. Maybe Tesla should outsource the charging stuff to not get in conflict with antitrust laws or sth. like that, but I'd love to see another big player provide good charging infrastructure for all EVs.
tgtweak 5y ago
If anyone here has charged outside the tesla network for a non-tesla EV, the prices being charged for electricity is absurd. I've heard rates as high as 45c/kWh. How can the government be hellbent on giving EV tax credits and incentives and turn a blind eye to the 5x markup being charged at charge stations. Canada has several 350KW fast chargers that are 20c per minute. You can pull down 4KW a minute on many fast charge cars (Hyundai Ioniq5, Kia EV6, Porsche Taycan, Lucid Air for example). A drive-up 70% charge (good for ~200 miles) on an Ioniq5 would cost you $3.60 Canadian dollars or just under $3 USD. Electrify America's fast-chargers in California for example are $0.43/kWh - that's $26 USD for the same charge. Electricity costs in California are only about 50% higher than Ontario, so that doesn't account for the markup. Even with a paid monthly membership, you're still at $18 per charge compared to the <$5 cost of power. Guess what - 200 miles on a 35mpg gas car in San Francisco is $23. I really think some progress needs to be made on charge costs. Granted it's cheaper than gas and it's a free market, I don't think it's in the industry's best interest to keep on this track. edit: Just checked PG&E's business EV rate plans... they max out during peak at $0.31/kWh and that is only from 4-9pm. It is $0.13 or $0.11 for the remainder of the day. https://www.pge.com/en_US/small-medium-business/energy-alternatives/clean-vehicles/ev-charge-network/electric-vehicle-rate-plans.page https://www.pge.com/en_US/small-medium-business/energy-alter...
- thatfrenchguy 5y ago
  ElectrifyAmerica is $0.31 a kWh with a $4 a month subscription (that you can cancel at any time), it’s pretty reasonable, given you’ll basically take it on any road trip where you charge more than 33kwh. $0.31 is less than what PGE charges me most of a time at home, and less than most Tesla Superchargers in the area! Your example about per minute rates is a bit misleading, given most people who’ll use those PetroCanada stations won’t have such a fast charging car and that petrocanada will charge more when they switch to per-kWh pricing.
  - tgtweak 5y ago
    I added the discounted membership cost, again it's still pretty heavily marked up over the cost of that power being charged to the stations (which is way lower than you PG&E peak residential rates). edit: You can head to the business BEV calculator and calculate for 200 cars doing full charges daily between 6am and 10pm (200 mile charges), every day of the month, the total monthly cost for power divided by the number of charges gets you to ~$10.50/charge power cost. So they're marking it up 80% in the cheapest case. If you only charge during peak hours (4-9pm) you could come out slightly ahead of the cost of energy assuming you paid for the membership.
phgn 5y ago
> More customers using the Supercharger network enables faster expansion. This seems like the core motivation here -- more people using the chargers justifies a larger investment and a better user experience (more availability) in the short term. About EV charging: Can Tesla set their own electricity price freely? If so, would you change the charger you use based on how much it costs at different places? I wonder if there's profit to be made in running more EV chargers, especially if they can adjust the charging price based on demand in each location.
- theluketaylor 5y ago
  > Can Tesla set their own electricity price freely? This varies wildly by jurisdiction. In some places electricity costs are highly regulated and they would have no control. In other places only utilities are allowed to sell power by the kWh, so charging is sold by time. Here in Canada our measurement regulator has dragged their heels on a standard for DC comsumption measuring, so even utilities like BC and Quebec Hydro can't sell DC fast charging power by the kWh. It is unlikely there will ever be much profit in selling DC fast charging power. DC fast chargers are a huge capital expense (100k-250k per cabinet for 100 kW+ plus installation that can easily run 3-4 figures) and drawing that much power in bursts comes with huge added costs from the utility. You can save on bursts with battery buffers, but that also raises the initial capital outlay. It's fine though, gas stations don't make any money selling fuel. All their money comes from the captive audience. Charging batteries has gotten a lot better, but it still creates a highly captive audience.
  - phgn 5y ago
    > It's fine though, gas stations don't make any money selling fuel. All their money comes from the captive audience. Interesting thought -- EV charging might be even easier to make money from then, once there's sufficient adoption. I imagine many more people would get a drink or a meal if they have to wait half an hour anyways. In that sense having EV chargers would be a large customer driver for businesses, one they'd probably pay for (maybe they do already?). Are gas stations normally franchised out, or owned by a single company?
gwbas1c 5y ago
The EU mandates the CCS charging connector. We really need to do the same thing in the US. Every auto manufacturer, except Tesla, is going with CCS. (Even Nissan announced that they are dropping Chdemo in the US and switching to CCS.) Tesla's proprietary supercharger is just like Betamax: They were first to the market, but the market didn't adopt their standard. There will even be people who bemoan that "supercharger was better" even though CCS supports faster charge rates than supercharger. (CCS has bigger pins than Supercharger.) Edit: Betamax had a smaller cartridge size limiting the physical amount of tape that would fit in a given cassette. Even though on paper Betamax was "better," a complete movie had to use a slower tape speed than VHS. Thus, the VHS version of a movie often had a clearer picture than Betamax.
- InTheArena 5y ago
  Every Tesla super-charger I have been has a reasonable amount of usage. Every third party one I have seen is either empty, broken, or has a old beat up Nissan Leaf sitting there overnight. Hopefully that will change, but right now, Tesla owns the market.
- throwaway894345 5y ago
  People need to relax. We're still in the early days of EVs--things will stabilize, probably around CCS in this particular case, but there's no need to look at this with some kind of schadenfreude. I doubt Tesla cares if the market converges on CCS or not, it's not like they were betting the farm on their proprietary connector. They just needed something to fast charge cars and no such thing existed when they began work on their supercharger fleet. It's really not a big deal for anyone except various deeply committed Tesla critics.
- josephcsible 5y ago
  Hasn't Tesla sold more EVs in the US than every other automaker combined? Even if literally every other automaker uses CCS, wouldn't Tesla's connector still have more market share? And their connector isn't it proprietary. They offered it freely (under terms quite similar in spirit to GPLv3, actually) to anyone who wanted it, but they just didn't get any takers.
sputknick 5y ago
What I want as a Tesla owner, is more non-supercharger charging. My biggest inconvenience is to travel, and stay at a hotel without charging, then I have to drive out of my way every few days find a supercharger, sit and wait while it charges then drive back. If hotels (which already have electricity) could install a few 20A-30A chargers that I could use overnight, it would make traveling with a Tesla significantly easier.
- InTheArena 5y ago
  This. Destination chargers are highly underrated.
- pedrocr 5y ago
  I've started inquiring about this on all hotel stays even if I know I probably don't strictly need it. It at least gives the signal that this is something I value. In Europe with 230V if places just install normal outlets it's already a big benefit. It's easy to get 30 to 50% charge overnight from those. With 110V that's more limited and a proper slow charger may be needed.
  - Handytinge 5y ago
    Oh I've never understood this correctly. My country has 240v/10a power points as standard. Do Americans charge at less than half the speed of this? This explains the constent complaints about "lines at superchargers", an issue I've never encountered.
    - pedrocr 5y ago
      In the US houses are supplied with 240V split phase. So most outlets are 120V from one of the two parts of the same phase. There are some outlets (e.g., for a drier) that use the whole 240V and with those getting high amps is also easy because US homes also usually have higher total power supplied than in Europe and they have standardized plugs that mean higher amps are available (without going to the industrial plugs we use in Europe). But if all you have is a pre-existing 120V outlet then it's very slow. So in more cases they need to do an upgrade but when they do the result is usually pretty good.
drewg123 5y ago
This seems like a net-negative for Tesla, in terms of customer retention. My inital reactions to this as a current Tesla owner: o I'm not looking forward to additional crowding at superchargers. o I'm EV enthusiast who road-trips and who is locked into Tesla due to the supercharger network. So I'm excited because this makes other car brands far more attractive, and means my next car will likely not be a Tesla. Neither of these reactions is good for Tesla.
- mabub24 5y ago
  It seems inevitable that Tesla will have to start catering more in the future to a upscale/luxury market (even if they are technically already, despite the popular perception that works in their favor that EVs = Tesla's for many people), which might be difficult for them with some of their QC issues. Hopefully, they can get that under control and not end up like the Jaguar of the EV market.
- throwaway894345 5y ago
  FWIW, Tesla has a CCS adapter. Not sure if it's available in all locations or not (and apparently it only supports model s and x atm), but I imagine it will be made more widely available (why would Tesla want to lock you into its own charging stations when they make their money on car sales?). https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/CCS/CCS_Combo_2_Adapter_en.pdf https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/CCS/CCS_Combo_2_Ad...
  - drewg123 5y ago
    I say "locked in" mainly because the tesla network is the only reliable network in the USA. There are many horror stories about other vendors' fast chargers.
thepasswordis 5y ago
This is why the comparisons to ford are so absurd. Tesla is a car manufacturer, and the gas station (chargers), and the oil company (grid tech, battery tech). Not only that: Tesla has said that they will start licensing their FSD tech to other companies.
martythemaniak 5y ago
What I think is happening. 1. They've spent a decade building the largest, highest quality network. From site selection, permitting, building components, construction, they are probably the most capital efficient org out there. 2. Others are catching up, eventually the supercharger network will be a commodity. 3. They have plenty of capital, so they can just get ahead and outbuild everyone else. There's only so many chargers a geolocation needs. They may come to dominate fast charging. 4. It's still clunky for non Tesla's, but about the same as the competition. The Tesla charging experience is still gonna be a step ahead.
- HWR_14 5y ago
  Point 3 about limited need starts falling apart in cities. Sure, in the suburbs you can put chargers in your garage. But in cities people need to use the super chargers regularly because their apartment complex only has one charger per hundred cars or something similar, and the percentage of EVs keeps growing.

89 points by punnerud 5y ago

Interesting how much hate I have seen for how Tesla didn’t do this before and how little enthusiasm or support there seems to be for this. This seems great!

SQueeeeeL 5y ago
The charging infrastructure has already been somewhat built out using the standard from other companies. Tesla having their own port caused a bifurcation which ultimately harmed EVs...
- wlesieutre 5y ago
  Back in 2014 Tesla offered up access to all of their supercharger related patents for free, but anyone who wanted to take advantage would have to agree to never attempt to enforce any other patent against Tesla or against any other company using your technology to make electric vehicles. So obviously no one used it because "give out free access to all of your future electric car technology forever" is a pretty shit trade for "we'll share our couple year head start on charging" in the long term, and now we have incompatible charging networks.
- surfmike 5y ago
  I’ve been to non-Tesla charging stations with three different port types (regular charging, then CCS and Chademo for high speed). So I wouldn’t blame Tesla entirely for that.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
mupuff1234 5y ago
For a company that received billions in subsidies having open infrastructure really shouldn't be a choice IMO. But the government is probably more to blame for not making it mandatory.
- toomuchtodo 5y ago
  No other automaker built a network [1], and Tesla used vehicle profits from the S and X to do it. The subsidies received were used to bootstrap manufacturing capacity, and all other automakers were eligible for them if they had built EVs (Tesla's DOE loan was paid back 9 years early, with interest [2]). Only recently did they open a manufacturing facility in China solely to build Supercharger stations [3] (older versions of Superchargers were bespoke, built with Model S and X stacked inverters; newer versions are purpose built). TLDR Tesla recognized the charging story was crucial to EV sales, and spent the capital to have a superior product. To this day, no other automaker is doing the same. [1] Electrify America doesn't count, as it was funded out of VW's Dieselgate settlement, which is also why it couldn't be VW branded and the EA brand was created: https://www.cnbc.com/2019/05/10/vws-2-billion-penalty-for-diesel-scam-builds-ev-charging-network-across-us.html https://www.cnbc.com/2019/05/10/vws-2-billion-penalty-for-di... [2] https://www.tesla.com/blog/tesla-repays-department-energy-loan-nine-years-early https://www.tesla.com/blog/tesla-repays-department-energy-lo... (May 22, 2013: Tesla Motors announced that it has paid off the entire loan awarded to the company by the Department of Energy in 2010. In addition to payments made in 2012 and Q1 2013, today’s wire of almost half a billion dollars ($451.8M) repays the full loan facility with interest. Following this payment, Tesla will be the only American car company to have fully repaid the government.) [3] https://insideevs.com/news/531709/tesla-completes-supercharger-factory/ https://insideevs.com/news/531709/tesla-completes-supercharg... (Tesla Completes Supercharger Factory In Shanghai; It will make 10,000 units (stalls) per year.)
  - clouddrover 5y ago
    > No other automaker built a network False. In North America, Electrify America (https://www.electrifyamerica.com/ https://www.electrifyamerica.com/) and Electrify Canada (https://www.electrify-canada.ca/ https://www.electrify-canada.ca/) are automaker built. Trying to claim it "doesn't count" is just childish. GM is funding EVgo's build of 350 kW chargers: https://insideevs.com/news/546869/gm-evgo-boost-charging-plan/ https://insideevs.com/news/546869/gm-evgo-boost-charging-pla... And of course you have Ionity in Europe: https://ionity.eu/ https://ionity.eu/
davedx 5y ago
I cautiously support this. I'm glad they're monitoring congestion closely :)
ericmay 5y ago
I think it's because if you're a Tesla owner, it's hard to be against this but it's really hard to be for it when you know that with superchargers in some locations/routes being at insane capacity that this will only make things worse. So if you own a Tesla and you're concerned you'll be shouted down. If you were previously complaining then now you don't have as much to complain about so you just don't post. I'm really curious to see how Tesla handles this. Will there be a surcharge or will it be more expensive for non-Tesla EVs? Will you be able to get priority in some fashion? Will Tesla, if it's truly an energy company and not an automaker begin to slowly not make as many cars? I mean if I can get a Model Y version of a Mercedes for $5k less and use all of Tesla's infrastructure ya know maybe that's an attractive option? ETC. As an investor though I love it because my thesis is Tesla is just a slow-moving all-encompassing energy conglomerate that makes cars and this is furthering that thesis.
- ProblemFactory 5y ago
  > superchargers in some locations/routes being at insane capacity that this will only make things worse If that happens, Tesla should set a price for other EVs which makes it profitable for them, and then just build as many charging locations as there is demand for. Everyone wins.
  - ericmay 5y ago
    Yea I'm generally onboard - how long until people start complaining about the "Tesla Tax" though? Or "why do I have to use the Tesla app"?
- fonix 5y ago
  Unless I misread the article it will be more expensive for non-tesla evs (the mentioned about the cost going towards supporting just that and building it out furhter), tesla's would pay the same. There would be no priority given either way afaik.

wlesieutre 5y ago

This has been going on for a few months now, and will probably spread in Europe. Remains to be seen what happens in the US, since Tesla has their own charging connector here. European Teslas use CCS, but obviously that wasn't an option for the first years of the US supercharger built-out, so it seems we're stuck with their proprietary connector here. Tesla does appear to be planning some superchargers in Texas with CCS connectors available, because they're required as a condition of grant money: https://insideevs.com/news/556749/tesla-grant-application-superchargers-texas/ https://insideevs.com/news/556749/tesla-grant-application-su... Could be they'll start doing that at other new construction if they want to bring non-Tesla supercharger access to the US. Or maybe they can make a Tesla-to-CCS cable adapter and sell it to people who want to join the supercharger club. Or maybe they won't do anything.

rosstex 5y ago
>European Teslas use CCS, but obviously that wasn't an option for the first years of the US supercharger built-out Why not?
- jefftk 5y ago
  CCS didn't exist yet: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_Charging_System https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_Charging_System
  - wlesieutre 5y ago
    Doing a bit of looking, CCS was standardized in 2011 and first couple charging stations went up in 2012, which is actually similar timing to Tesla's superchargers. But I would assume the Supercharger system was designed in-concert with the Model S and they were well along in development. If they really wanted to they probably could have got on board in 2011 with the other manufacturers and made it happen. I thought CCS came along a couple of years later. Add that alongside the UX to reasons I don't want a Tesla.
    - InTheArena 5y ago

ocdtrekkie 5y ago

"With your Tesla, you’ll also have access to the lowest Supercharger pricing." This feels like something that would be illegal if say, a gas station had a deal to give better gas prices to Toyota owners.

joenathanone 5y ago
My old S has free supercharging for life, the cost is subsidized in the price of the vehicle.
cmer 5y ago
If Toyota had their own gas stations, I'm pretty sure they could offer a discount to their customers. Why not?
- __s 5y ago
  Antitrust
  - fastball 5y ago
    How does that violate any antitrust laws?
- mminer237 5y ago
  I think the main issue would be tying under antitrust law, although that probably would only apply under the current DoJ approach if they sold the gas below cost.
speedgoose 5y ago
If gas station were invented today, each company would require a monthly subscription.
atwebb 5y ago
Gas stations already do this, they offer deals to certain credit cards, grocery chains, or even if you buy a car wash.

mft_ 5y ago

Ooof, this makes me conflicted. On the one hand, it's great to share empty supercharger capacity with all EVs, making EVs generally more attractive - and of course, more money for Tesla from charging maybe = even more superchargers. On the other hand, the biggest challenges with an EV vs. ICE car are (obviously) range and charging. With this in mind, the supercharger network, and supercharger capacity generally being ample, probably rate pretty high when choosing a Tesla. It mightn't take many instances of having to wait to charge due to non-Teslas filling up supercharger capacity for that USP to fade and the Tesla ownership experience to be significantly damaged.

davedx 5y ago
I'm not a frequent user of superchargers. So far I have had one experience where I had to wait about 25 minutes before a stall became available (a Tesla-only supercharger with quite a lot of capacity too). It is unusual enough that it doesn't damage my ownership experience... petrol stations have queues too when they're busy.
Navarr 5y ago
I mean, essentially what's happening here is that Tesla is exploring becoming the replacement of a Gas Station. The benefit of not waiting by being a Tesla customer is a pretty high benefit, but could you imagine that same benefit with ICE vehicles? A gas station that you can't fuel at unless you have a specific brand of car? This change was and is likely inevitable.
- _fat_santa 5y ago
  > The benefit of not waiting by being a Tesla customer is a pretty high benefit, but could you imagine that same benefit with ICE vehicles? A gas station that you can't fuel at unless you have a specific brand of car? The best way Tesla can solve this is by building more of them. So you would have way more cars using the chargers but you would have physically more chargers so it would even out (in the best case scenario). What has me wondering is, how will charge time affect the economics of these places? If you pull into just about any gas station now, you can fill your tank in 5-10minutes, more or less depending on the pump but it's exponentially less time than even waiting for an EV to charge. With more folks stopped in these places for longer, I wonder how the economics of these places will evolve.

i_am_proteus 5y ago

>With this pilot, some stations are now accessible to Non-Tesla EV drivers in selected countries via the Tesla app Why should it be necessary to install software in order to fuel a vehicle? What benefit exists for the consumer? I have noticed this as a trend in physical services, I was asked by a grocery store to install software prior to purchasing groceries, however they were gracious after I declined, and permitted me to purchase groceries using only my debit card.

meragrin_ 5y ago
> Why should it be necessary to install software in order to fuel a vehicle? What benefit exists for the consumer? As far as gas pumps and chargers, less chance of the interface being vandalized? In Tesla's case, I would imagine it is more an easy adaptation to current infrastructure without major changes to the chargers themselves.
davedx 5y ago
It's not necessary for regular charging poles, but you do need some way to identify yourself. Using an app is a bit more environmentally friendly than mailing out loads of plastic cards. Personally I don't know why chargepoles don't just support chip and pin, at least in Europe - almost all parking places here do now.
- kzrdude 5y ago
  Why identify yourself? Isn't it enough to use a payment system?
  - barelysapient 5y ago
    Probably because Tesla isn't into retail point of sale and would rather reuse existing app based infrastructure.
    - natch 5y ago
      Also important to note Tesla drivers don’t need to use the app for charging. Although it does have helpful features if they do, like being able to check on the charge remotely. The described experience of selecting a charger, pressing start charging / stop charging etc. is only for non-Teslas because they don’t have the integration.

o_m 5y ago

It's a weird move by Tesla. I haven't considered any other EV brand because of Tesla's superior charging network.

hadrien01 5y ago
That's probably thanks to the EU. The EC and some EEA governments have been pushing Tesla to open up their network, notably Germany and Norway.
toomuchtodo 5y ago
Tesla will receive government subsidies for opening up its network. Considering the $600 million they've spent to deploy it globally, that seems reasonable.
flurdy 5y ago
I think that is changing. In certain countries the alternative networks are now comparable. And I think this is also to increase their own revenue. If it affects the availability for their own cars they can just ramp up the non-Tesla prices. It may also be to be one step ahead of legislation that might make it mandatory. Or as part of government grants etc. I did notice they were only opening this up on the less busy superchargers.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
Bayart 5y ago
It's only weird if you think it's really Tesla's choice. It's not happening in the EU for no reason.

api 5y ago

They should make a Chademo adapter. It would take some doing since it's a bit more than a simple dongle, but there are a lot of cars out there that have fewer fast charge options. I have a Leaf and would buy this and get a Tesla account in a heartbeat if they offered this.

haspok 5y ago
Chademo is already deprecated in Europe (where this trial is happening), so don't hold your breath. If you need fast DC charging, sorry, but you bought the wrong car...
- api 5y ago
  It's apparently possible to convert one to CCS, but that would cost more than a mega-dongle. There's talk of Nissan making a kit. It's basically the jack plus a software update so it's not that involved. They've sold CCS Leaf models in other markets. There are a good number of Chademo chargers around here. Tesla has better coverage though so it would be nice.
Tagbert 5y ago
In the US, Nissan has abandoned Chademo. All newer models will use CCS. I would not expect any more Chademo charger stations to be added.

rohan_ 5y ago

Commodify your complement https://www.gwern.net/Complement https://www.gwern.net/Complement

aeharding 5y ago

The electric car is here to save the auto industry, not the planet.

llampx 5y ago
Agreed. And this is from someone who would like to buy one. I have no misgivings that I am saving the planet by doing so.
xeromal 5y ago
I'm curious how this is related to the article? lol
- aeharding 5y ago
  > Launched in November 2021, our Non-Tesla Supercharger pilot will continue to expand to new sites and countries in support of our mission to accelerate the world’s transition to sustainable energy.

nkotov 5y ago

I wish they would build out more stations first. We have three Supercharger stations in my area within a 50 mile radius and every time I had to use one, the lot was almost always full.

martin_a 5y ago

Interesting move. While I understand some of the fears of Tesla owners about congested charging stations, as a non-Tesla EV owner I appreciate this opening. I'm willing to pay more for good infrastructure and Tesla sure is providing that. So is Ionity and fastned but most others (speaking about Germany) fail to do that. Maybe Tesla should outsource the charging stuff to not get in conflict with antitrust laws or sth. like that, but I'd love to see another big player provide good charging infrastructure for all EVs.

tgtweak 5y ago

If anyone here has charged outside the tesla network for a non-tesla EV, the prices being charged for electricity is absurd. I've heard rates as high as 45c/kWh. How can the government be hellbent on giving EV tax credits and incentives and turn a blind eye to the 5x markup being charged at charge stations. Canada has several 350KW fast chargers that are 20c per minute. You can pull down 4KW a minute on many fast charge cars (Hyundai Ioniq5, Kia EV6, Porsche Taycan, Lucid Air for example). A drive-up 70% charge (good for ~200 miles) on an Ioniq5 would cost you $3.60 Canadian dollars or just under $3 USD. Electrify America's fast-chargers in California for example are $0.43/kWh - that's $26 USD for the same charge. Electricity costs in California are only about 50% higher than Ontario, so that doesn't account for the markup. Even with a paid monthly membership, you're still at $18 per charge compared to the <$5 cost of power. Guess what - 200 miles on a 35mpg gas car in San Francisco is $23. I really think some progress needs to be made on charge costs. Granted it's cheaper than gas and it's a free market, I don't think it's in the industry's best interest to keep on this track. edit: Just checked PG&E's business EV rate plans... they max out during peak at $0.31/kWh and that is only from 4-9pm. It is $0.13 or $0.11 for the remainder of the day. https://www.pge.com/en_US/small-medium-business/energy-alternatives/clean-vehicles/ev-charge-network/electric-vehicle-rate-plans.page https://www.pge.com/en_US/small-medium-business/energy-alter...

thatfrenchguy 5y ago
ElectrifyAmerica is $0.31 a kWh with a $4 a month subscription (that you can cancel at any time), it’s pretty reasonable, given you’ll basically take it on any road trip where you charge more than 33kwh. $0.31 is less than what PGE charges me most of a time at home, and less than most Tesla Superchargers in the area! Your example about per minute rates is a bit misleading, given most people who’ll use those PetroCanada stations won’t have such a fast charging car and that petrocanada will charge more when they switch to per-kWh pricing.
- tgtweak 5y ago
  I added the discounted membership cost, again it's still pretty heavily marked up over the cost of that power being charged to the stations (which is way lower than you PG&E peak residential rates). edit: You can head to the business BEV calculator and calculate for 200 cars doing full charges daily between 6am and 10pm (200 mile charges), every day of the month, the total monthly cost for power divided by the number of charges gets you to ~$10.50/charge power cost. So they're marking it up 80% in the cheapest case. If you only charge during peak hours (4-9pm) you could come out slightly ahead of the cost of energy assuming you paid for the membership.

phgn 5y ago

> More customers using the Supercharger network enables faster expansion. This seems like the core motivation here -- more people using the chargers justifies a larger investment and a better user experience (more availability) in the short term. About EV charging: Can Tesla set their own electricity price freely? If so, would you change the charger you use based on how much it costs at different places? I wonder if there's profit to be made in running more EV chargers, especially if they can adjust the charging price based on demand in each location.

theluketaylor 5y ago
> Can Tesla set their own electricity price freely? This varies wildly by jurisdiction. In some places electricity costs are highly regulated and they would have no control. In other places only utilities are allowed to sell power by the kWh, so charging is sold by time. Here in Canada our measurement regulator has dragged their heels on a standard for DC comsumption measuring, so even utilities like BC and Quebec Hydro can't sell DC fast charging power by the kWh. It is unlikely there will ever be much profit in selling DC fast charging power. DC fast chargers are a huge capital expense (100k-250k per cabinet for 100 kW+ plus installation that can easily run 3-4 figures) and drawing that much power in bursts comes with huge added costs from the utility. You can save on bursts with battery buffers, but that also raises the initial capital outlay. It's fine though, gas stations don't make any money selling fuel. All their money comes from the captive audience. Charging batteries has gotten a lot better, but it still creates a highly captive audience.
- phgn 5y ago
  > It's fine though, gas stations don't make any money selling fuel. All their money comes from the captive audience. Interesting thought -- EV charging might be even easier to make money from then, once there's sufficient adoption. I imagine many more people would get a drink or a meal if they have to wait half an hour anyways. In that sense having EV chargers would be a large customer driver for businesses, one they'd probably pay for (maybe they do already?). Are gas stations normally franchised out, or owned by a single company?

gwbas1c 5y ago

The EU mandates the CCS charging connector. We really need to do the same thing in the US. Every auto manufacturer, except Tesla, is going with CCS. (Even Nissan announced that they are dropping Chdemo in the US and switching to CCS.) Tesla's proprietary supercharger is just like Betamax: They were first to the market, but the market didn't adopt their standard. There will even be people who bemoan that "supercharger was better" even though CCS supports faster charge rates than supercharger. (CCS has bigger pins than Supercharger.) Edit: Betamax had a smaller cartridge size limiting the physical amount of tape that would fit in a given cassette. Even though on paper Betamax was "better," a complete movie had to use a slower tape speed than VHS. Thus, the VHS version of a movie often had a clearer picture than Betamax.

InTheArena 5y ago
Every Tesla super-charger I have been has a reasonable amount of usage. Every third party one I have seen is either empty, broken, or has a old beat up Nissan Leaf sitting there overnight. Hopefully that will change, but right now, Tesla owns the market.
throwaway894345 5y ago
People need to relax. We're still in the early days of EVs--things will stabilize, probably around CCS in this particular case, but there's no need to look at this with some kind of schadenfreude. I doubt Tesla cares if the market converges on CCS or not, it's not like they were betting the farm on their proprietary connector. They just needed something to fast charge cars and no such thing existed when they began work on their supercharger fleet. It's really not a big deal for anyone except various deeply committed Tesla critics.
josephcsible 5y ago
Hasn't Tesla sold more EVs in the US than every other automaker combined? Even if literally every other automaker uses CCS, wouldn't Tesla's connector still have more market share? And their connector isn't it proprietary. They offered it freely (under terms quite similar in spirit to GPLv3, actually) to anyone who wanted it, but they just didn't get any takers.

sputknick 5y ago

What I want as a Tesla owner, is more non-supercharger charging. My biggest inconvenience is to travel, and stay at a hotel without charging, then I have to drive out of my way every few days find a supercharger, sit and wait while it charges then drive back. If hotels (which already have electricity) could install a few 20A-30A chargers that I could use overnight, it would make traveling with a Tesla significantly easier.

InTheArena 5y ago
This. Destination chargers are highly underrated.
pedrocr 5y ago
I've started inquiring about this on all hotel stays even if I know I probably don't strictly need it. It at least gives the signal that this is something I value. In Europe with 230V if places just install normal outlets it's already a big benefit. It's easy to get 30 to 50% charge overnight from those. With 110V that's more limited and a proper slow charger may be needed.
- Handytinge 5y ago
  Oh I've never understood this correctly. My country has 240v/10a power points as standard. Do Americans charge at less than half the speed of this? This explains the constent complaints about "lines at superchargers", an issue I've never encountered.
  - pedrocr 5y ago
    In the US houses are supplied with 240V split phase. So most outlets are 120V from one of the two parts of the same phase. There are some outlets (e.g., for a drier) that use the whole 240V and with those getting high amps is also easy because US homes also usually have higher total power supplied than in Europe and they have standardized plugs that mean higher amps are available (without going to the industrial plugs we use in Europe). But if all you have is a pre-existing 120V outlet then it's very slow. So in more cases they need to do an upgrade but when they do the result is usually pretty good.

drewg123 5y ago

This seems like a net-negative for Tesla, in terms of customer retention. My inital reactions to this as a current Tesla owner: o I'm not looking forward to additional crowding at superchargers. o I'm EV enthusiast who road-trips and who is locked into Tesla due to the supercharger network. So I'm excited because this makes other car brands far more attractive, and means my next car will likely not be a Tesla. Neither of these reactions is good for Tesla.

mabub24 5y ago
It seems inevitable that Tesla will have to start catering more in the future to a upscale/luxury market (even if they are technically already, despite the popular perception that works in their favor that EVs = Tesla's for many people), which might be difficult for them with some of their QC issues. Hopefully, they can get that under control and not end up like the Jaguar of the EV market.
throwaway894345 5y ago
FWIW, Tesla has a CCS adapter. Not sure if it's available in all locations or not (and apparently it only supports model s and x atm), but I imagine it will be made more widely available (why would Tesla want to lock you into its own charging stations when they make their money on car sales?). https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/CCS/CCS_Combo_2_Adapter_en.pdf https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/CCS/CCS_Combo_2_Ad...
- drewg123 5y ago
  I say "locked in" mainly because the tesla network is the only reliable network in the USA. There are many horror stories about other vendors' fast chargers.

thepasswordis 5y ago

This is why the comparisons to ford are so absurd. Tesla is a car manufacturer, and the gas station (chargers), and the oil company (grid tech, battery tech). Not only that: Tesla has said that they will start licensing their FSD tech to other companies.

martythemaniak 5y ago

What I think is happening. 1. They've spent a decade building the largest, highest quality network. From site selection, permitting, building components, construction, they are probably the most capital efficient org out there. 2. Others are catching up, eventually the supercharger network will be a commodity. 3. They have plenty of capital, so they can just get ahead and outbuild everyone else. There's only so many chargers a geolocation needs. They may come to dominate fast charging. 4. It's still clunky for non Tesla's, but about the same as the competition. The Tesla charging experience is still gonna be a step ahead.

HWR_14 5y ago
Point 3 about limited need starts falling apart in cities. Sure, in the suburbs you can put chargers in your garage. But in cities people need to use the super chargers regularly because their apartment complex only has one charger per hundred cars or something similar, and the percentage of EVs keeps growing.