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It's not such a problem right now thanks to the supply chain crunch, but there are a lot of us sitting on the sidelines waiting for EVs to achieve better mileag

It's not such a problem right now thanks to the supply chain crunch, but there are a lot of us sitting on the sidelines waiting for EVs to achieve better mileage before making the move. Our family has only one car, and it needs to be able to do not just the daily commute (for which I acknowledge at least 90% of the kilometers on this car will be used), but also the road trips. I rented a Model 3 LR to test out how realistic these trips are in Europe, driving 1,200km to Austria for a ski trip. 1. The stated range goes down the toilet at motorway speeds. Expected range plummeted from 500km to 300km. Actual range was more like 250km, probably thanks to the cold temperatures. This was a *50%* reduction. 2. We had to plan the trip carefully around chargers. There were 10 minute detours to find chargers, traffic jams at the chargers, and slow charging speeds (probably due to said cold). We tried to charge from about 10% to 80%, but this was taking more than an hour, and shifted to 10% to 60%, which was around 40 mins. Each stop averaged 1+ hour, including the detour, waiting, and charging. 3. There were no chargers at the lodge, and this meant a final charge before ascending the mounting to near 100% to ensure that despite the extreme cold we could make it all the way up and back down. We also wanted to ensure we had extra power in case we got stuck on the road and had heat. This final stop was another hour. All up, the EV added more than *eight hours* to our round trip. Some of this time might have been spent on toilet breaks and eating anyway, but nowhere near *eight hours.* Bear in mind this was all on a near new Tesla with a near new battery and presumably the fasted possible charge rate and some of the best range available in an EV right now. This is just a huge fail for road trips, and I'm so glad I rented one to find this out before buying. I'm hopeful battery technology like this makes it into production ASAP. There is so much R&D pouring into batteries right now.

nicoburns 5y ago
My understanding is that solid-state lithium ion batteries (which should roughly double capacity while also being much less fire prone) are likely to be the next big thing with pretty much all major car manufacturers working on bringing them to market and the estimated timeframe being 2025-2030.
- jabl 5y ago
  From what I've understood LFP (also much less fire prone) is poised to be the next big thing. But maybe that's more in the short term and for "budget" models.
  - axiosgunnar 5y ago
    does LFP stand for less fire prone?
    - jabl 5y ago
      LFP stands for LiFePO4, or lithium iron phosphate, a sort of battery chemistry. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_iron_phosphate_battery https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_iron_phosphate_battery
  - hvidgaard 5y ago
    It's cheaper but with less capacity, so I guess it's alright for the second car that is strictly used for commuting.
    - wbsss4412 5y ago
      Less energy density. Capacity is dependent on size of the pack. Notably it’s lower energy density by weight, but not substantially by volume.
      - hvidgaard 5y ago
        True, I was thinking about density. Unfortunately weight to size for an EV is complicated and more weight is not good.
  - nicoburns 5y ago
    LFP is pretty much already here. It's mainstream enough that's it's shipping in Teslas. The catch is that while LFP is cheaper and less fire-prone than more traditional lithium ion batteries, it's less energy dense. So it's unlikely to be solving range issues any time soon.
evandijk70 5y ago
My brother and I made a very similar road trip (Skiing holiday to Austria ~ 1000 km.) I drove a 'normal' car and he drove a tesla Model 3. He left an hour earlier and arrived 30 minutes after me (with a relatively full battery to avoid the need of destination charging). He has the car for a little over a year so he probably optimized the charging schedule a bit better, but I still wonder why there was such a big difference between his and your experience (1.5 extra hours vs 4 extra hours for a single trip). He did not have to wait at the chargers, so that could account for some of it.. We only stopped for gas, toilet breaks, and took a 15 minute break for coffee and lunch.
- IgorPartola 5y ago
  The person you are replying to says they rented the Tesla and your brother owns one. I wonder if the rented vehicle was somehow abused or poorly maintained.
  - MisterTea 5y ago
    > I wonder if the rented vehicle was somehow abused or poorly maintained. Very likely. Though more likely is the owner of a Tesla is more apt to the nuances of charging and planning ahead.
  - izacus 5y ago
    Or there were longer lines at the chargers. Or they chose different chargers. Or the chargers were broken/slow (common occurence). Or the car burned more power due to lower temperatures. There's a lot of variance that comes into driving an EV on a longer trip.
  - situationista 5y ago
    I own a Tesla and regularly make very long trips. Travel in an EV requires a completely different mindset from ICE and takes a little getting used to. I'm not surprised that a one-off road trip experience was less than smooth, but once you get into the habits of EV travel it's already a perfectly satisfactory experience.
- easton 5y ago
izacus 5y ago
> 1. The stated range goes down the toilet at motorway speeds. Expected range plummeted from 500km to 300km. Actual range was more like 250km, probably thanks to the cold temperatures. This was a 50% reduction. This, to me, is the worst part of buying an EV right now - the marketing does the Apple "30 hours of battery***" lie and it varies so horribly that it's hard to trust anything about it. I guess it would be easy if you're just a daily commuter, but I regularly do 800km trips and all projections show that it'll prolong an already long trip for hours.
- jaclaz 5y ago
  The 30 hours of battery life lie can be worked around with a (common enough nowadays) external battery pack/power bank, it's a lot of time I wonder how there isn't a market for "power bank trailers" for EV's, something that you can rent for the times you need the extra range (or actually buy if you need it often). Driving a car with a (low, not prone to lateral wind effects) trailer is inconvenient but doable when needed.
  - izacus 5y ago
    BMW gave out an ICE "range extender" for their i3s - so I guess that's the "power bank" approach to these.
- anovikov 5y ago
  Absolutely so does the gas mileage of normal cars. Whatever number you see on the sticker (in Europe) is a laughable lie, real life mileage is about 1.5x worse, and no one makes a fuss about it - it's just one of life's lies everyone adapted to ignore.
  - izacus 5y ago
    The difference between the number stated for my ICE car and the number actually achieved is a drop from about 750 to 650km at worst. It doesn't suddenly run out of gas when it's cold outside halfway through Germany.
- 5y ago
smarx007 5y ago
> motorway speeds Do you mean 110..130 km/h EU speeds or 150+ km/h Autobahn speeds?
- dagw 5y ago
  Driving 130 km/h can knock ~30% off your range compared to driving 90 km/h according to various sources[1]. Add cold on top of that and losing 50% over advertised range seems reasonable. If you want to optimize for range you should apparently aim for holding a constant 50-55 km/h. [1] https://teslike.com/ https://teslike.com/ https://cleantechnica.com/2018/07/15/tesla-range-plotted-relative-to-speed-temperature-graphs/ https://cleantechnica.com/2018/07/15/tesla-range-plotted-rel...
  - smarx007 5y ago
    > If you want to optimize for range you should apparently aim for holding a constant 50-55 km/h. I think rather 80-90 km/h, at least for Nissan Leaf, as well as from the table you linked (55 mph ~~ 89 km/h)
    - dagw 5y ago
      from the table you linked (55 mph ~~ 89 km/h) The table doesn't show any data below 55 mph. This site: https://cleantechnica.com/2018/07/15/tesla-range-plotted-relative-to-speed-temperature-graphs/ https://cleantechnica.com/2018/07/15/tesla-range-plotted-rel... has a graph that plots range vs speed all the way to 0 (for the Model S) and it shows the 'optimal' speed to be around 35 mph.
      - smarx007 5y ago
        My bad, didn't check the second link, thank you. The data looks too smooth. Is there raw data somewhere? Or analysis without too much regression applied?
    - gehen88 5y ago
      I own a Nissan Leaf and can confirm 90km/h is about the sweet spot for trip duration. Above it, you're draining battery faster than you can recharge it. Below it is unsafe on motorways. I usually set it at 104km/h, which makes the estimated range pretty much exactly match reality. However, for newer EVs the sweet spot will be at higher speeds, because those cars are able to recharge at much higher speed (at least 2 times faster).
yholio 5y ago
Charging rails alongside major roads is the obvious solution to this problem. It will enable much more than vacationing in urban EVs, also things like electric semis, long range buses etc. Since it is a fixed capital expenditure, you need suficient EVs on the road for it to make economic sense, but from that point forwards it's a no-brainer compared to stuffing every vehicle chock-full of rare minerals for the unlikely case of a ski trip to Austria.
- bmicraft 5y ago
  At that point you should probably make use of the preexisting "charging rails" and take the train (in central europe)
  - yholio 5y ago
    Because trains are known to split into family sized units that continue the journey on roads using battery power? The public transport trope is tiresome and unlikely to prevent the warming of the planet with a single fraction of a degree.
    - Ourgon 5y ago
      Car trains (or "Motorails") do. Park your car on the train at the head station, drive it off the train at the destination after having spent the night in a sleeper cabin and drive on to where you want to go. Since trains are electric it would be easy to retrofit the car carriers with charging infrastructure to make sure EVs are topped up for the "fan-out". Everything but the charging infrastructure is already in place and in use, at least in Europe - from the Netherlands [1] you can take such trains to Switzerland, Germany, Italy, Austria, Finland, Croatia, Slovakia and Turkey (via Austria). [1] https://www.treinreiswinkel.nl/reizen/autotrein https://www.treinreiswinkel.nl/reizen/autotrein
  - rad_gruchalski 5y ago
    Recent headline from Handelsblatt: 1 in 4 trains does not arrive on time. No, thanks.
- 5y ago
bryanlarsen 5y ago
As a counter-anecdote, we did a 3000km one-way trip this summer in a Tesla. We spend a grand total of 15 minutes waiting for a charger. In other words, significantly less than we would have waited for gas pumps. YMMV, but what enabled this: - it takes a bunch of time to shuffle kids through bathrooms - overnight hotel charging - we didn't eat in the car With a gas pump, you need to stay with the car while it's filling. With an electric, you can eat/bathroom/sleep. If you're doing a long trip with a family and want to stay sane, you need to budget time for that stuff anyways.
- buran77 5y ago
  > With a gas pump, you need to stay with the car while it's charging. Is that a realistic concern for anyone? The "charging" process at a gas pump takes around 1 minute (in Europe gas pumps have ~50 l/min flow rate, in the US it's 10 gal/min). At best you can get a battery recharge in 20min but more realistically today over 30min for 80% charge if the charging station hasn't reached peak charging capacity and starts lowering charging speeds for everyone. Usually the longest wait is during holiday season where at the middle of the highway everyone needs to fill up around the same time/place and queues form. This is not something EV tech can help with intrinsically, if you don't wait today it's because there aren't enough EVs on the road. Once most cars on the road are EVs wouldn't you have the exact same issue with queuing at busy charging station in holiday season? This will be exacerbated by the fact that charging takes longer than 1min, and too many cars charging at the same time would most likely lead to a drop in the overall charging rate of all cars in the station (it's unlikely charging station will support high-speed on all chargers simultaneously). The way we drive and refuel now revolve around the concept of the quick refill gas pump. We need to adjust our expectations, driving style/planning/habits, and technology - induction charging roads, "third rails", things that address any shortcomings of EVs, not just adapting old solutions to new problems.
  - SketchySeaBeast 5y ago
    Are there penalties for staying on the charger longer than required? My concern with a half hour required time to charge is that people will go to "get a quick bite" and leave their car at the station. The 5 minute run in to pee at the gas station could become a half hour "the restaurant was busy" addition.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
vlangber 5y ago
Very strange. The Norwegian version of AAA just tested lots of different EVs in winter conditions. Most cars lost 10-25%.The link below is in Norwegian, but the results table should be easy to understand: https://www.motor.no/aktuelt/motors-store-vintertest-av-rekkevidde-pa-elbiler/217132 https://www.motor.no/aktuelt/motors-store-vintertest-av-rekk...
- Gareth321 5y ago
  There is a lot of potential variation between their tests and my use. * Norway doesn't have speed limits which go anywhere near 160kph. I was on the Autobahn for most of my trip. How fast were they driving? 50-80kph appears to be a lot more efficient than 160kph. * Did they drive to maximise efficiency of power or time? I have a heavy foot accelerating. * Were they using the heater liberally? We were. I'm told this uses a lot of power, especially on models which don't have a heat pump. * Was brake regen high or low? For the record, I'm not arguing that the Model 3 can achieve better efficiency than I achieved. I was simply explaining that in my case, it was poor.
  - Teknoman117 5y ago
    Regarding efficiency, for your "average car", driving at 160 kph requires 3x the energy as 110 kph (aerodynamic drag mostly), while only increasing velocity by 1.45x. Simply put, you're requiring 2x the energy per kilometer, which pretty neatly lines up with losing half the manufacturer rated range.
- isoprophlex 5y ago
  Isn't it true that in most of Norway you'd be hard pressed to find places where you can drive faster than 80-90 km/h? Meanwhile, in germany, you have the autobahn...
  - merb 5y ago
    in a few years the autobahn will be limited to 130 km/h aswell I guess.
1234letshaveatw 5y ago
You can buy an EV for commuting and swap it with a friend for road trips. My experience has been that non-EV drivers are very excited for the opportunity to borrow one
- Gareth321 5y ago
  A cool idea but I'm the kind of person who would lose my cool if I found a scratch on my Tesla after friends borrowed it for a couple weeks. I would also feel decidedly uncool asking them to pay to fix it. We also have a strange law here in Denmark where if my friend is caught exceeding the speed limit by a significant margin, or driving dangerously, I lose the car.
breytex 5y ago
Did the exact same trip with a Model 3 2021, 1200km ski trip from Germany to Austria. Came back yesterday. I experienced it way differently. - We were able to make 300km with 90% to 10% battery (to not hurt the battery longevity too much) - Outside temp was -4 to +2 °C - Inside temp set to 20°C, seat heating 2/3 for two passengers - So a we made a charging break every 300km, so approx every 2-3 hours - Recharging those 80% at a supercharger takes about 30-50min depending on the Supercharger-version. - We had 0 traffic/wait times at the super chargers (we drove both directions on a sunday) - We would do a 10-15min break anyway every 2-3 hours to grab a coffee or do magic pee, so the extension of the charging breaks over our normal breaks aren't event that long - All superchargers had a <5min detour from the Autobahn Overall we spent approx. 2hrs more on breaks as we would have with a conventional car. I think thats a fair trade-off for 2-3 vacation trips a year, figuring in the time saved for normal refilling stops with a non-EV cars during commutes (when you are able to charge your EV at home). To me, the future of "driving into holiday fully electric" is already possible with a Tesla LR model. With other EVs without Supercharger-Access/smaller battery/slower charging speeds probably not so much. You can even save more time by using tools like ABRP[0]. This even gives you better charge-planning with shorter, time-optimized stops also figuring in detour times. [0]: https://abetterrouteplanner.com/ https://abetterrouteplanner.com/
- Gareth321 5y ago
  Thanks for sharing your experience. If I may ask, how long was each leg of the trip in total?
  - pulse7 5y ago
    Not parent, but calculation from given data: 1200km, charging every 300km for about 30-50min -> 4x 30-50min -> 120-200min -> 2h-3.3h in one direction -> 4h-6.6h in both directions
- kraftman 5y ago
  What's a magic pee?
  - 5y ago
sandworm101 5y ago
>> Expected range plummeted from 500km to 300km. Actual range was more like 250km, probably thanks to the cold temperatures. It is currently -17c where I am. Expected to go down to -28c in the next couple days. A 250km range in winter is simply unacceptable in my area (northernish canada). That is only a couple hours at highway speeds. But the real killer remains the absolute temperature limits on the batteries. If it cannot handle -45c without invalidating some warranty, then it just isn't useable. I cannot afford to spend that sort of money on something that I cannot park outside.
- xxpor 5y ago
  Where it can get that cold, are outlets near parking spots common for block heaters?
  - sandworm101 5y ago
    Common? They are ubiquitous. You won't see them at the mall, but every job location has them. At my work there are 4-foot poles at the end of every parking stall (1-pole for 4 spots) with outlets for everyone. The reality is that most cars start easily down to about -20 without external heat. But those outlets mean nothing in term of whether I can buy an EV. If the power goes out then we loose those outlets. Or what if I need to park somewhere without outlets such as at the airport? It is one thing for a car to not start. You can always tow it and warm it up somewhere else. But a car that will take damage if it gets cold is totally unacceptable.
    - xxpor 5y ago
      I agree with you, which makes me think that there's a misconception here. That seems completely insane, you can't predict the weather, especially say if you've parked at the airport for 2 weeks. Looking at the current Tesla warrenty: https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/downloads/tesla-new-vehicle-limited-warranty-en-us.pdf https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/downloads/tesla-ne... I think your info might be just out of date. I don't see any references to specific temps, just normal don't be dumb stuff (like exposing the battery to a fire) I did find this from 2014 though: https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/battery-warranty-and-temperature-below-30c-22f.32621/ https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/battery-warranty-and... This says the warranty at the time said: • Exposing the vehicle to ambient temperatures above 140°F (60°C) or below -22°F (-30°C) for more than 24 hours at a time” So it sounds like they took it out eventually?
nhoughto 5y ago
I don't have an EV but is in my future, and we do a long trip (500km) regularly, not sure how practical this is but i've always thought, is it worth buying a car for 100% of your needs? or get something for 90% and solve the 10% differently by renting? Buy and use an EV for all the easy daily stuff, then rent something more suitable for the yearly/less frequent long trip. Other than range we have a similar problem with space, for big trips we end up with tons of stuff and more space is useful but day to day less so. So the 90% EV could be smaller as well and still solve the problem. I do see the attraction of having one thing that solves 100% of the uses though.
foxyv 5y ago
I'm mostly waiting for the total cost of ownership to come down. Most TOC calculations are showing best case EVs against worst case ICE vehicles. With the difficulty to repair Teslas and with simple issues costing $15000+ to fix, I don't really feel comfortable spending an extra $20-40k. If Tesla wants to get people who are more budget conscious or who will depend on their vehicle as a single car family then they need to really up their parts and repair game. I don't want to buy a John Deer EV that spends most of it's time at the dealer getting fixed until the warranty runs out.

nicoburns 5y ago

My understanding is that solid-state lithium ion batteries (which should roughly double capacity while also being much less fire prone) are likely to be the next big thing with pretty much all major car manufacturers working on bringing them to market and the estimated timeframe being 2025-2030.

jabl 5y ago
From what I've understood LFP (also much less fire prone) is poised to be the next big thing. But maybe that's more in the short term and for "budget" models.
- axiosgunnar 5y ago
  does LFP stand for less fire prone?
  - jabl 5y ago
    LFP stands for LiFePO4, or lithium iron phosphate, a sort of battery chemistry. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_iron_phosphate_battery https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_iron_phosphate_battery
- hvidgaard 5y ago
  It's cheaper but with less capacity, so I guess it's alright for the second car that is strictly used for commuting.
  - wbsss4412 5y ago
    Less energy density. Capacity is dependent on size of the pack. Notably it’s lower energy density by weight, but not substantially by volume.
    - hvidgaard 5y ago
      True, I was thinking about density. Unfortunately weight to size for an EV is complicated and more weight is not good.
- nicoburns 5y ago
  LFP is pretty much already here. It's mainstream enough that's it's shipping in Teslas. The catch is that while LFP is cheaper and less fire-prone than more traditional lithium ion batteries, it's less energy dense. So it's unlikely to be solving range issues any time soon.

evandijk70 5y ago

My brother and I made a very similar road trip (Skiing holiday to Austria ~ 1000 km.) I drove a 'normal' car and he drove a tesla Model 3. He left an hour earlier and arrived 30 minutes after me (with a relatively full battery to avoid the need of destination charging). He has the car for a little over a year so he probably optimized the charging schedule a bit better, but I still wonder why there was such a big difference between his and your experience (1.5 extra hours vs 4 extra hours for a single trip). He did not have to wait at the chargers, so that could account for some of it.. We only stopped for gas, toilet breaks, and took a 15 minute break for coffee and lunch.

IgorPartola 5y ago
The person you are replying to says they rented the Tesla and your brother owns one. I wonder if the rented vehicle was somehow abused or poorly maintained.
- MisterTea 5y ago
  > I wonder if the rented vehicle was somehow abused or poorly maintained. Very likely. Though more likely is the owner of a Tesla is more apt to the nuances of charging and planning ahead.
- izacus 5y ago
  Or there were longer lines at the chargers. Or they chose different chargers. Or the chargers were broken/slow (common occurence). Or the car burned more power due to lower temperatures. There's a lot of variance that comes into driving an EV on a longer trip.
- situationista 5y ago
  I own a Tesla and regularly make very long trips. Travel in an EV requires a completely different mindset from ICE and takes a little getting used to. I'm not surprised that a one-off road trip experience was less than smooth, but once you get into the habits of EV travel it's already a perfectly satisfactory experience.
easton 5y ago

izacus 5y ago

> 1. The stated range goes down the toilet at motorway speeds. Expected range plummeted from 500km to 300km. Actual range was more like 250km, probably thanks to the cold temperatures. This was a 50% reduction. This, to me, is the worst part of buying an EV right now - the marketing does the Apple "30 hours of battery***" lie and it varies so horribly that it's hard to trust anything about it. I guess it would be easy if you're just a daily commuter, but I regularly do 800km trips and all projections show that it'll prolong an already long trip for hours.

jaclaz 5y ago
The 30 hours of battery life lie can be worked around with a (common enough nowadays) external battery pack/power bank, it's a lot of time I wonder how there isn't a market for "power bank trailers" for EV's, something that you can rent for the times you need the extra range (or actually buy if you need it often). Driving a car with a (low, not prone to lateral wind effects) trailer is inconvenient but doable when needed.
- izacus 5y ago
  BMW gave out an ICE "range extender" for their i3s - so I guess that's the "power bank" approach to these.
anovikov 5y ago
Absolutely so does the gas mileage of normal cars. Whatever number you see on the sticker (in Europe) is a laughable lie, real life mileage is about 1.5x worse, and no one makes a fuss about it - it's just one of life's lies everyone adapted to ignore.
- izacus 5y ago
  The difference between the number stated for my ICE car and the number actually achieved is a drop from about 750 to 650km at worst. It doesn't suddenly run out of gas when it's cold outside halfway through Germany.
5y ago

smarx007 5y ago

> motorway speeds Do you mean 110..130 km/h EU speeds or 150+ km/h Autobahn speeds?

dagw 5y ago
Driving 130 km/h can knock ~30% off your range compared to driving 90 km/h according to various sources[1]. Add cold on top of that and losing 50% over advertised range seems reasonable. If you want to optimize for range you should apparently aim for holding a constant 50-55 km/h. [1] https://teslike.com/ https://teslike.com/ https://cleantechnica.com/2018/07/15/tesla-range-plotted-relative-to-speed-temperature-graphs/ https://cleantechnica.com/2018/07/15/tesla-range-plotted-rel...
- smarx007 5y ago
  > If you want to optimize for range you should apparently aim for holding a constant 50-55 km/h. I think rather 80-90 km/h, at least for Nissan Leaf, as well as from the table you linked (55 mph ~~ 89 km/h)
  - dagw 5y ago
    from the table you linked (55 mph ~~ 89 km/h) The table doesn't show any data below 55 mph. This site: https://cleantechnica.com/2018/07/15/tesla-range-plotted-relative-to-speed-temperature-graphs/ https://cleantechnica.com/2018/07/15/tesla-range-plotted-rel... has a graph that plots range vs speed all the way to 0 (for the Model S) and it shows the 'optimal' speed to be around 35 mph.
    - smarx007 5y ago
      My bad, didn't check the second link, thank you. The data looks too smooth. Is there raw data somewhere? Or analysis without too much regression applied?
  - gehen88 5y ago
    I own a Nissan Leaf and can confirm 90km/h is about the sweet spot for trip duration. Above it, you're draining battery faster than you can recharge it. Below it is unsafe on motorways. I usually set it at 104km/h, which makes the estimated range pretty much exactly match reality. However, for newer EVs the sweet spot will be at higher speeds, because those cars are able to recharge at much higher speed (at least 2 times faster).

yholio 5y ago

Charging rails alongside major roads is the obvious solution to this problem. It will enable much more than vacationing in urban EVs, also things like electric semis, long range buses etc. Since it is a fixed capital expenditure, you need suficient EVs on the road for it to make economic sense, but from that point forwards it's a no-brainer compared to stuffing every vehicle chock-full of rare minerals for the unlikely case of a ski trip to Austria.

bmicraft 5y ago
At that point you should probably make use of the preexisting "charging rails" and take the train (in central europe)
- yholio 5y ago
  Because trains are known to split into family sized units that continue the journey on roads using battery power? The public transport trope is tiresome and unlikely to prevent the warming of the planet with a single fraction of a degree.
  - Ourgon 5y ago
    Car trains (or "Motorails") do. Park your car on the train at the head station, drive it off the train at the destination after having spent the night in a sleeper cabin and drive on to where you want to go. Since trains are electric it would be easy to retrofit the car carriers with charging infrastructure to make sure EVs are topped up for the "fan-out". Everything but the charging infrastructure is already in place and in use, at least in Europe - from the Netherlands [1] you can take such trains to Switzerland, Germany, Italy, Austria, Finland, Croatia, Slovakia and Turkey (via Austria). [1] https://www.treinreiswinkel.nl/reizen/autotrein https://www.treinreiswinkel.nl/reizen/autotrein
- rad_gruchalski 5y ago
  Recent headline from Handelsblatt: 1 in 4 trains does not arrive on time. No, thanks.
5y ago

bryanlarsen 5y ago

As a counter-anecdote, we did a 3000km one-way trip this summer in a Tesla. We spend a grand total of 15 minutes waiting for a charger. In other words, significantly less than we would have waited for gas pumps. YMMV, but what enabled this: - it takes a bunch of time to shuffle kids through bathrooms - overnight hotel charging - we didn't eat in the car With a gas pump, you need to stay with the car while it's filling. With an electric, you can eat/bathroom/sleep. If you're doing a long trip with a family and want to stay sane, you need to budget time for that stuff anyways.

buran77 5y ago
> With a gas pump, you need to stay with the car while it's charging. Is that a realistic concern for anyone? The "charging" process at a gas pump takes around 1 minute (in Europe gas pumps have ~50 l/min flow rate, in the US it's 10 gal/min). At best you can get a battery recharge in 20min but more realistically today over 30min for 80% charge if the charging station hasn't reached peak charging capacity and starts lowering charging speeds for everyone. Usually the longest wait is during holiday season where at the middle of the highway everyone needs to fill up around the same time/place and queues form. This is not something EV tech can help with intrinsically, if you don't wait today it's because there aren't enough EVs on the road. Once most cars on the road are EVs wouldn't you have the exact same issue with queuing at busy charging station in holiday season? This will be exacerbated by the fact that charging takes longer than 1min, and too many cars charging at the same time would most likely lead to a drop in the overall charging rate of all cars in the station (it's unlikely charging station will support high-speed on all chargers simultaneously). The way we drive and refuel now revolve around the concept of the quick refill gas pump. We need to adjust our expectations, driving style/planning/habits, and technology - induction charging roads, "third rails", things that address any shortcomings of EVs, not just adapting old solutions to new problems.
- SketchySeaBeast 5y ago
  Are there penalties for staying on the charger longer than required? My concern with a half hour required time to charge is that people will go to "get a quick bite" and leave their car at the station. The 5 minute run in to pee at the gas station could become a half hour "the restaurant was busy" addition.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

vlangber 5y ago

Very strange. The Norwegian version of AAA just tested lots of different EVs in winter conditions. Most cars lost 10-25%.The link below is in Norwegian, but the results table should be easy to understand: https://www.motor.no/aktuelt/motors-store-vintertest-av-rekkevidde-pa-elbiler/217132 https://www.motor.no/aktuelt/motors-store-vintertest-av-rekk...

Gareth321 5y ago
There is a lot of potential variation between their tests and my use. * Norway doesn't have speed limits which go anywhere near 160kph. I was on the Autobahn for most of my trip. How fast were they driving? 50-80kph appears to be a lot more efficient than 160kph. * Did they drive to maximise efficiency of power or time? I have a heavy foot accelerating. * Were they using the heater liberally? We were. I'm told this uses a lot of power, especially on models which don't have a heat pump. * Was brake regen high or low? For the record, I'm not arguing that the Model 3 can achieve better efficiency than I achieved. I was simply explaining that in my case, it was poor.
- Teknoman117 5y ago
  Regarding efficiency, for your "average car", driving at 160 kph requires 3x the energy as 110 kph (aerodynamic drag mostly), while only increasing velocity by 1.45x. Simply put, you're requiring 2x the energy per kilometer, which pretty neatly lines up with losing half the manufacturer rated range.
isoprophlex 5y ago
Isn't it true that in most of Norway you'd be hard pressed to find places where you can drive faster than 80-90 km/h? Meanwhile, in germany, you have the autobahn...
- merb 5y ago
  in a few years the autobahn will be limited to 130 km/h aswell I guess.

1234letshaveatw 5y ago

You can buy an EV for commuting and swap it with a friend for road trips. My experience has been that non-EV drivers are very excited for the opportunity to borrow one

Gareth321 5y ago
A cool idea but I'm the kind of person who would lose my cool if I found a scratch on my Tesla after friends borrowed it for a couple weeks. I would also feel decidedly uncool asking them to pay to fix it. We also have a strange law here in Denmark where if my friend is caught exceeding the speed limit by a significant margin, or driving dangerously, I lose the car.

breytex 5y ago

Did the exact same trip with a Model 3 2021, 1200km ski trip from Germany to Austria. Came back yesterday. I experienced it way differently. - We were able to make 300km with 90% to 10% battery (to not hurt the battery longevity too much) - Outside temp was -4 to +2 °C - Inside temp set to 20°C, seat heating 2/3 for two passengers - So a we made a charging break every 300km, so approx every 2-3 hours - Recharging those 80% at a supercharger takes about 30-50min depending on the Supercharger-version. - We had 0 traffic/wait times at the super chargers (we drove both directions on a sunday) - We would do a 10-15min break anyway every 2-3 hours to grab a coffee or do magic pee, so the extension of the charging breaks over our normal breaks aren't event that long - All superchargers had a <5min detour from the Autobahn Overall we spent approx. 2hrs more on breaks as we would have with a conventional car. I think thats a fair trade-off for 2-3 vacation trips a year, figuring in the time saved for normal refilling stops with a non-EV cars during commutes (when you are able to charge your EV at home). To me, the future of "driving into holiday fully electric" is already possible with a Tesla LR model. With other EVs without Supercharger-Access/smaller battery/slower charging speeds probably not so much. You can even save more time by using tools like ABRP[0]. This even gives you better charge-planning with shorter, time-optimized stops also figuring in detour times. [0]: https://abetterrouteplanner.com/ https://abetterrouteplanner.com/

Gareth321 5y ago
Thanks for sharing your experience. If I may ask, how long was each leg of the trip in total?
- pulse7 5y ago
  Not parent, but calculation from given data: 1200km, charging every 300km for about 30-50min -> 4x 30-50min -> 120-200min -> 2h-3.3h in one direction -> 4h-6.6h in both directions
kraftman 5y ago
What's a magic pee?
- 5y ago

sandworm101 5y ago

>> Expected range plummeted from 500km to 300km. Actual range was more like 250km, probably thanks to the cold temperatures. It is currently -17c where I am. Expected to go down to -28c in the next couple days. A 250km range in winter is simply unacceptable in my area (northernish canada). That is only a couple hours at highway speeds. But the real killer remains the absolute temperature limits on the batteries. If it cannot handle -45c without invalidating some warranty, then it just isn't useable. I cannot afford to spend that sort of money on something that I cannot park outside.

xxpor 5y ago
Where it can get that cold, are outlets near parking spots common for block heaters?
- sandworm101 5y ago
  Common? They are ubiquitous. You won't see them at the mall, but every job location has them. At my work there are 4-foot poles at the end of every parking stall (1-pole for 4 spots) with outlets for everyone. The reality is that most cars start easily down to about -20 without external heat. But those outlets mean nothing in term of whether I can buy an EV. If the power goes out then we loose those outlets. Or what if I need to park somewhere without outlets such as at the airport? It is one thing for a car to not start. You can always tow it and warm it up somewhere else. But a car that will take damage if it gets cold is totally unacceptable.
  - xxpor 5y ago
    I agree with you, which makes me think that there's a misconception here. That seems completely insane, you can't predict the weather, especially say if you've parked at the airport for 2 weeks. Looking at the current Tesla warrenty: https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/downloads/tesla-new-vehicle-limited-warranty-en-us.pdf https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/downloads/tesla-ne... I think your info might be just out of date. I don't see any references to specific temps, just normal don't be dumb stuff (like exposing the battery to a fire) I did find this from 2014 though: https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/battery-warranty-and-temperature-below-30c-22f.32621/ https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/battery-warranty-and... This says the warranty at the time said: • Exposing the vehicle to ambient temperatures above 140°F (60°C) or below -22°F (-30°C) for more than 24 hours at a time” So it sounds like they took it out eventually?

nhoughto 5y ago

I don't have an EV but is in my future, and we do a long trip (500km) regularly, not sure how practical this is but i've always thought, is it worth buying a car for 100% of your needs? or get something for 90% and solve the 10% differently by renting? Buy and use an EV for all the easy daily stuff, then rent something more suitable for the yearly/less frequent long trip. Other than range we have a similar problem with space, for big trips we end up with tons of stuff and more space is useful but day to day less so. So the 90% EV could be smaller as well and still solve the problem. I do see the attraction of having one thing that solves 100% of the uses though.

foxyv 5y ago

I'm mostly waiting for the total cost of ownership to come down. Most TOC calculations are showing best case EVs against worst case ICE vehicles. With the difficulty to repair Teslas and with simple issues costing $15000+ to fix, I don't really feel comfortable spending an extra $20-40k. If Tesla wants to get people who are more budget conscious or who will depend on their vehicle as a single car family then they need to really up their parts and repair game. I don't want to buy a John Deer EV that spends most of it's time at the dealer getting fixed until the warranty runs out.