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Over 10% of Tesla Model S EVs Fail Germany’s Strict Inspection After 3 Years
- lnxg33k1 5y ago
- optimiz3 5y agoWell Tesla doesn't have a US PR or marketing team so now what?
- brianwawok 5y agoHe can drive his Ford and enjoy his quality Oppo smart phone I guess.
- PickledHotdog 5y agoThe commenter didn't say anything about marketing or PR - just that the object had to look good. That said, Musk is a fairly adept marketer - he sure as heck doesn't invent things
- burke 5y ago> Primary problems stated for the Model S were issues with the suspension wishbones, as well as problems with fog lights and low beams.
- patd 5y agoOther sources seem to write it the other way around : headlights but also wishbones. But nobody seems to quote the TUV directly or link to the actual report
- nmehner 5y agoAFAIK there is only a press release: https://www.tuev-verband.de/pressemitteilungen/e-autos-hauptuntersuchung https://www.tuev-verband.de/pressemitteilungen/e-autos-haupt... and a powerpoint presentation https://www.tuev-verband.de/?tx_epxelo_file[id]=858582&cHash=e3d9e0baf0f0ac8fd9daebd1e8ea8a19 https://www.tuev-verband.de/?tx_epxelo_file[id]=858582&cHash... . "In addition to defects in the fog light and the low beam, the Model S at the HU mainly has problems with the wishbones. " so not a lot of information in there either.
- drewg123 5y agoIts not the wishbone, but my 4 year old / 40k mile model X had an issue with the ball joints being worn out a few months ago.
- namdnay 5y agoFog lights/low beams issues probably just means they weren't set correctly by the dealership before being sent to test
- ethagknight 5y agoI happened to watch a Munro Model S Plaid teardown last night, and they were talking about a new “virtual ball” wheel link that they thought was interesting/curious.. I would think novelties in wheel-to-vehicle connections would be a solved matter, obviously not. Not a riveting video per se, but somewhat on topic… https://youtu.be/xcmf7ZqqKTE https://youtu.be/xcmf7ZqqKTE
- NullPrefix 5y agoWrench monkeys in the intro are working with face gags (non N95 masks), but the Munro himself can do it without one. Tells a lot about this old geezer.
- NullPrefix 5y agoWhy y'all downvoting me? He's old, that a risk factor for the consequences of face non covering.
- 11thEarlOfMar 5y agoYou're dismissive of an exceptional auto quality technologist.
- ethagknight 5y agoAlso, not substantive whatsoever to the topic. Please be considerate.
- literallycancer 5y agoN95 is just a filtration standard. You can't really tell whether the mask satisfies it from the outline alone.
- NullPrefix 5y agoN95 implies it's a respirator, not a medicinal mask or face cloth. Respirators have different outline.
- tcskeptic 5y agoThe Munro guys have talked about how rapidly Tesla quality has advanced— going from amateur on early model s to impressive of later model 3s. I wonder how much of this is that early amateur hour stuff? I take the Munro guys opinion pretty seriously.
- Neil44 5y agoDue to how long they’ve been making the S now I’d say it’s more likely to be a couple of specific manufacturing issues, like the wishbones and dipped beams mentioned.
- baybal2 5y agoI don't take this guy too serious. He seem to know little about what has been happening in car engineering for the last 30 years, and I am not a car engineer, having to say that.
- panick21_ 5y agoThat company literally worked on many major car projects for those 30 years. What do you think have they been doing? They were involved in the RAM truck overall that made it really popular for example. Their costumers are literally car companies who want to know if competitors are using new technologies that they might be able to use. If you want to see an example of what the produce, check out this report that they sold for 10$ (usually these cost many 100k$). This is a 23,793 pages report on every details and new technology in the i3. https://munrolive.com/support-%2F-store/ols/products/bmw-i3-reports https://munrolive.com/support-%2F-store/ols/products/bmw-i3-...
- freemint 5y agoHe also fell for Plasma Kinetics grift which seems to run into some basic physics problems https://youtube.com/watch?v=-8NQkOeRNpg https://youtube.com/watch?v=-8NQkOeRNpg so I am not sure in how far Munro can be trusted on things which are not fasteners.
- enragedcacti 5y ago
- blakesterz 5y agoThe average defect rate for all cars from 2-3 years old in Germany is 4.7 percent. The Smart Fortwo Electric Drive performed best of all, with only 3.5% showing any defects. BMW's i3 was not far behind, clocking in with 4.7 percent. 5.7% of Renault Zoes presented with defects in a below-average result. The Tesla Model S. 10.7 percent of the model showed up for testing with a defect of some sort. Not only was this the worst EV in the study, the Model S placed third-to-last out of all cars.
- tyingq 5y agoI don't know if it still exists, but the comprehensive TÜV inspections in Germany used to create a sort of grey market for US military people stationed there. Personal vehicles for US military were plated by the US government, and weren't subject to the TÜV. So you could get otherwise nice german cars at bargain prices, with the caveat that you had really no idea why they failed. It could be something like emissions issues, or something safety related, but subtle and hard to find.
- tjansen 5y agoThe 10% is not as bad as it sounds, because the author fails to mention that these statistics are heavily in favour of expensive cars with a good dealership network. And Tesla has no dealerships at all, as far as I know. When you own something like a BMW, you typically don't drive the car to the inspection yourself. Especially not if it's a leased or company car. Instead, you bring your car to the dealership (or they will pick it up), they inspect the car, fix any issues they encounter and only then bring in an official inspector for the actual inspection. This way, the inspector will hardly find any issues. Also, dealerships typically don't chose TÜV, but one of their competitors that do the inspection at the dealership. TÜV is where people go who want to save money by skipping the dealership. Most people who do this drive cheaper cars. That's why cheap cars are always having much worse numbers in these statistics. They are alternative statistics, like ADAC's (Germany's equivalent to AAA), but they all have the same problem. There are no good statistics for German cars. They all favour expensive German brands because those who the statistics will never see a broken car. The dealerships will always take care of that. I'd rather trust US-based Consumer Reports than TÜV or ADAC statistics.
- microtherion 5y agoA Renault Zoe costs roughly a third of a Tesla model S new. Which one is supposed to be the "cheap car" again?
- benjamir 5y agoI'm not a Tesla fanboy, but: have a crash with the Zoe and you will know what cheap crap looks like (0 star NCAP).
- HarryHirsch 5y agoTesla is a luxury brand, yet one out of ten Teslas manages to show up with suspension problems at the 3-year roadworthiness inspection. That's quite something - one would think that the suspension is a solved problem, cars have has suspensions for over 100 years, coaches before that. That's just another symptom of appalling quality control.
- mnd999 5y ago
- HPsquared 5y agoHow much of that is worn tyres? I know that's a very common thing cars fail on, and a sports sedan like the Model S will be particularly susceptible. I suppose EVs, not going in for maintenance as frequently as ICE cars, won't get the same frequency of professionals looking at things like tyres.
- rsynnott 5y agoPer the article, it had a much higher defect rate than other electric cars (where you’d expect tire problems due to weight).
- universa1 5y agoGiven the weather conditions in Germany, without having any statistics at hand, I still would expect most people to switch tires twice a year for summer/winter seasons... ...especially since if you are on "summer" tires in the winter, insurance won't pay (simplified).
- arpinum 5y agoArticle fails to mention how many of these defects are due to low beam alignment issues, which is normally a quick adjustment done by dealers before the inspection. Article writer likely knows what they are doing and disguises the numbers.
- giantg2 5y agoYeah, I was wondering the same thing. Are they dead bulbs and alignment. What else is there really to fail on?
- jarym 5y agoMaybe Teslas aren’t as reliable - I don’t have any evidence to say they are. I do know that unlike most other cars Tesla don’t have a mandatory service schedule to maintain warranty which might be one explanation for higher-than-average statutory failure rates.
- stevespang 5y ago
- lkrubner 5y agoTesla, the stock, is currently priced as if it will never face competition. Even with the big correction of recent weeks, it is still priced at more than several of its competitors combined. This is not a rational price. The fact is that the market will soon be flooded with excellent electric cars from Toyota, Mercedes, BMW and more. This article certainly should worry anyone holding Tesla stock: less than 4% of the BMW Smart Fortwo Electric Drive showed defects, compared to 10% of the Teslas. And this is in the year 2022. It's only going to get worse and worse from here on out, as the big companies bring their whole networks to bear. Even worse, whereas Toyota, Mercedes, and BMW have international networks of dealerships, Tesla has only a very small base of institutional support to work with. It simply isn't rational to hold Tesla stock. The preponderance of evidence favors the idea that Tesla will shrink and the other companies will grow, in the electric market.
- brianwawok 5y agoBeen waiting for 10 years for the legacy manufacturers to flood the market with BEV. As recently as a year ago, Toyota was still betting in hydrogen. Basically, I’ll believe it when you see it. Right now the BEV market is basically Tesla or sacrifices.
- HarryHirsch 5y agoGet a Nissan Leaf.
- myko 5y agoThe reason Tesla wins out here to me is the super charging network and range. I'd prefer another car company, one without Elon's erratic behavior and substandard build quality, but overall they are the best electric vehicle and will be until someone else can compete on range and charging.
- steveBK123 5y agoExactly this. In most of US, ex-California, the non-Tesla charging networks are about 4 years behind on install locations/quantities. Plus they have tons of software issues (tons of EV reviews with drivers unable to charge at ElectrifyAmerica, etc). Meanwhile in 3.5 years of owning a Tesla, they have been filling in every gap in my trip charging needs, and introducing redundant charging locations on my journeys. In the NYC area, 200-300mi trips in the Tesla have evolved quickly with a BEV- * 2018 - OK there's one route to go on this journey that has charger, I've topped us up to 90% before we go, so don't miss the turn & everyone time your bladder to this one stop * 2019 - Alright we are at 90% and there's a couple places we can charge along the way, as long as we take routes A or B.. and the backup charger on route B might be 10mi off the highway driving through some backroads at night in rural NJ * 2020 - Oh cool they added chargers to a couple more of those NJTP/I95 rest stops * 2021 - OK there are chargers at basically all the NJTP/I95 rest stops I used to stop for gas * 2022 - It's winter & the battery is above 50%, we'll pass 2 chargers on the way to/from regardless of which route we go .. so we'll charge whenever is convenient to someone needing to stop for drink or bathroom So living in 2022 with a Tesla charging network, it's hard for me to imagine going back to my 2018 style of driving with the very attractive MachE / Polestar2 / Taycan / Ioniq 5 / etc.
- Bluecobra 5y agoMove fast and break things is job 1!
- xxs 5y agoWell the cars literally move fast, esp. in Germany no speed limit on the highways (yes most of the highways do actually have speed limit)
- fallingknife 5y agoWell that got them to the market leader position in EVs with a trillion dollar market cap, so it's been a good strategy so far.
- the_mitsuhiko 5y agoNote that this is model S specific and a German issue. There is a very simple reason why this is happening which has to do with things that play a huge role in Germany but not anywhere else. * unrestricted highway speeds * a structural deficiency on the model S which causes the A-arms to break at high speeds * no mandatory manufacturer service but mandatory car safety inspections Without unrestricted highway speeds the a-arms are unlikely to break. With mandatory manufacturer service intervals broken A-arms would be spotted ahead of the car safety inspection (TUeV). Likely without that a-arm deficiency this wouldn't happen either. So I would not expect the model 3 to show the same statistics. If this topic is of interest to you, google for "Model S Querlenker" on the German internet and you will find many affected folks. Yet that particular issue is not anywhere else as widespread because people just drive slower.
- enragedcacti 5y agoWe've seen a good number of suspension failures in US Teslas as well, including 3/Y although the reasons are different compared to the S/X. https://insideevs.com/news/447593/tesla-suspension-issues-owners-true-stories/ https://insideevs.com/news/447593/tesla-suspension-issues-ow...
- formerly_proven 5y agoSounds like the Model S needs the speed limiter adjusted down to ensure safe operation.
- chefkoch 5y agoAnd how do you explain that a belgian consumer group came to a similar conclusion? Top speed on belgian highways is 120 km/h.
- hiptobecubic 5y agoThat explains why they break quickly, but not why they break more quickly than other cars.
- ranieuwe 5y agoSo they should make better cars that do not have this problem. Which is what everybody else seems to do (except for Dacia).
- wcoenen 5y agoI was curious about the original source. From what I understand from [1], it's only available in paper format: The TÜV Report 2022 is available from Friday, November 12, 2021 at a price of EUR 5.40 in TÜV SÜD service centers and in retail outlets. It can also be ordered at [2]. [1] https://www.tuvsud.com/de-de/publikationen/tuev-report https://www.tuvsud.com/de-de/publikationen/tuev-report [2] https://www.tuev-media.de/tuev-report-2022 https://www.tuev-media.de/tuev-report-2022
- yayachiken 5y agoIt is quite annoying because the defects you can have in the HU inspections in Germany are well-defined and sorted into multiple tiers: * No defects (Ohne Mängel) → pass * Negligible defects (Geringe Mängel) → pass, but owner is expected to fix the defects asap. * Significant defects (Erhebliche Mängel) → no pass, with possiblity to re-check those specific defects for a smaller fee. * Dangerous defects (Gefährliche Mängel) → no pass, car may only drive to a place where the defects are fixed. * Not roadworthy (Verkehrsunsicher) → no pass, car may not even leave the inspection yard, license plates get invalidated, authorities are notified. The article talks about some cars having "notable defects" and some cars having "any defects", and there is no indication whether they actually lump some of those defect tiers together there. It is actually quite common to have some negligible defects during any inspection, which includes stuff like broken license plate lights. Also defects on wear parts like spent brake plates obviously impact road-worthiness, so if you do not maintain your new car well and drive lice a racer, you can still get one of the higher tier defects in the first inspection. If you take your car to a shop to do the inspection, pretty much every mechanic will at least look around for the most common stuff. Even the untrustworthy shops will usually do that as they can then try to upsell you additional repairs. Also it would be good to know if they actually found structural defects like suspension or chassis issues. Those should not happen in the first inspection at all. In fact, for cheap cars defects like these are usually the death sentence. Older beater cars usually pretty much double their sell price by just having passed the HU for another 2 years.
- emptybottle 5y agoIf it wasn’t already abundantly clear, T takes a silicon valley approach to cars. Ship the MVP and fix bugs later. Owners are effectively beta testing these cars, and participating in a 3-5 year upgrade cycle (just like a smartphone) I’ll stick with legacy Japanese auto manufacturers myself, but I don't think many T owners are surprised by reliability issues or expecting much more than a flashy toy out of their vehicle.
- seanmcdirmid 5y agoAre Model 3s not common in Germany? If not, then why they not mention Model 3 performance on TUV inspections as well? Is it just that they haven’t been around for 3 years yet?
- alkonaut 5y agoWhen I get an EV it has a lot fewer moving parts than my current car so I’ll expect both better reliability and lower maintenance costs. It’s certainly worth looking out for these stats from countries that have rigorous inspections. It would also be worth seeing the average repair and service costs once it’s out of warranty.
- renewiltord 5y agoThings like this don’t matter. Tesla buyers will continue to buy them because other cars simply do not compare. People have been talking this up for the better part of a decade. “No automotive grade screen” and stuff like that. But if you are in the market for a Tesla, the substitutes are all not good enough yet.
- Tempest1981 5y agoLots of suspension issues... The Model Y is now shipping with a new single piece rear casting, reducing 70 parts to 2 parts: https://electrek.co/2021/01/11/tesla-starts-production-model-y-massive-single-piece-rear-casting/ https://electrek.co/2021/01/11/tesla-starts-production-model... We'll see if that improves things in a few years. Or if new issues arise with the high-pressure die casting process.
- seshagiric 5y agoBugs, issues, problems are part of any new system being designed/ built. In my opinion, the bigger question is will Tesla fix these issues. They can take a headstrong view and say their product is best or they can iteratively fix the issues.