5 ms·

A lot of non-programmer office workers I've met aren't capable of writing software. Full stop. They're simply too incompetent. It's an uncomfortable truth. I'm

A lot of non-programmer office workers I've met aren't capable of writing software. Full stop. They're simply too incompetent. It's an uncomfortable truth. I'm talking about scrum masters who have trouble navigating Jira, business analysts who aren't able to have a written conversation, product owners who struggle to create Outlook calendar invites. Imagine asking these same people to write software rather than just use it. It isn't just a matter of training, it's a matter of disposition, and the gap is wider than we as a society care to admit.

shrimp_emoji 5y ago
Does anyone not have trouble navigating Jira? I play Europa Universalis 4[0], and I feel like Jira is more complicated. 0: https://external-preview.redd.it/at0EwQpHU6A3xyU0KW80bc3aVMZnTJyuMdzpkg65XC8.jpg?auto=webp&s=c83bf8d4cb0f2ee61149507a931e1981400fde5a https://external-preview.redd.it/at0EwQpHU6A3xyU0KW80bc3aVMZ...
- nnadams 5y ago
  The interfaces of Paradox games only get better with each release in my opinion. Crusader Kings 3 looks polished and is easy to use. Leagues above CK2. I love the stackable tooltips that let you define terms in tooltips defining terms in menus.
- mrweasel 5y ago
  Jira isn’t nearly as bad as it’s made out to be, and I struggle to suggest any real alternative. The problem is that Jira do a lot of different things, and mixing those those things results in people having a bad time. An example: don’t try to use Kanban board unless you’re planning on doing so in all project. Jira will happily show “kanban” tickets in the same overview as an ITIL incident, resulting in teams having to mentally switch between different workflows.
  - drunkpotato 5y ago
    Jira isn't nearly as bad as it's made out to be, only because it's so, so, so much worse. It makes simple things obtuse and absurdly difficult, all in the name of flexibility that is more liability than feature. I hate Jira with the burning passion of a thousand fiery suns. I've used a bespoke ticketing system. I've used Trello. I've used stickies on a whiteboard. They each had their pros and cons, but every single one of them was infinitely better than the shithole that is Jira.
  - solarkraft 5y ago
    Jira is overloaded, a bit slow and a bit glitchy. But lots of software is. I tend to think that people mostly hate Jira because it reminds them of their dysfunctional processes and work in general. Personally, from my work experience, I despise Visual Studio and Outlook a lot more (Jira is clearly trying to be usable compared to these).
    - kwertyoowiyop 5y ago
      I despise Jira because it is a bloated sluggish mess, and clearly the execs at Atlassian don’t give a crap about improving its performance or fixing the rough edges of its interface. Never have I loved Devtrack more than when I had to use Jira.
  - claytonjy 5y ago
    I agree, but the need to know special rules like this is exactly why JIRA's UX is so awful. I want my project management tools to guide us into a pit of success, not a dark rabbit hole full of sharp object.
WatchDog 5y ago
I don't think you are necessarily wrong, but I'm not sure what this adds to the discussion. There are plenty of competent people in non-programming domains. If "no-code" solutions can help these people build tools useful to them, that seems like a great thing to me.
jacquesm 5y ago
> I'm talking about scrum masters who have trouble navigating Jira, business analysts who aren't able to have a written conversation, product owners who struggle to create Outlook calendar invites. None of those have anything to do with writing software. You are mentioning two commercial packages with shitty user interfaces and you're talking about the skill of writing, which is hard for most people who need to write out a logical argument instead of winging it. Apropos...
- ozim 5y ago
  It has to do with people not willing to put even faintest effort in learning how to use or operate stuff that they use on a daily basis. You don't have to know JIRA "in and out" to open a board and move tickets around. If you put in 30 mins one day to set up your workflow you are done for the rest of your life. Unless other people come by and mess with the workflow, which also is not problem of JIRA but of people. So it is not that people are stupid - it is more that people don't want to learn things. Learning things is hard. Which goes back to why normal people run in terror when they see command line or some code. Problem is with low code or no code platforms people still have to put in conscious effort to learn those tools and put the same effort understanding what they are doing. I think that is the point that *booleandilemma* is making. In the end from my POV biggest lie of "low code" is that it makes stuff simpler, but in reality it does not, you still have conditions and loops and all state to keep in mind while "low coding".
scandox 5y ago
A lot of programmers aren't capable of writing software. This is a nothing argument. Lots of office workers are very intelligent people.
marginalia_nu 5y ago
> I'm talking about scrum masters who have trouble navigating Jira I've been programming for 20 years and I still can't navigate Jira. The interface makes vim feel like a marvel of intuitive interface design.
- thr0wawayf00 5y ago
  8-year programmer here and I completely agree. JIRA is a perfect example of a tool that has grown so big and feature-flexible that very little is intuitive anymore.
solarkraft 5y ago
I have trouble seeing your argument. People are stupid? You may be surprised to see how good people are in their respective domains.

shrimp_emoji 5y ago

Does anyone not have trouble navigating Jira? I play Europa Universalis 4[0], and I feel like Jira is more complicated. 0: https://external-preview.redd.it/at0EwQpHU6A3xyU0KW80bc3aVMZnTJyuMdzpkg65XC8.jpg?auto=webp&s=c83bf8d4cb0f2ee61149507a931e1981400fde5a https://external-preview.redd.it/at0EwQpHU6A3xyU0KW80bc3aVMZ...

nnadams 5y ago
The interfaces of Paradox games only get better with each release in my opinion. Crusader Kings 3 looks polished and is easy to use. Leagues above CK2. I love the stackable tooltips that let you define terms in tooltips defining terms in menus.
mrweasel 5y ago
Jira isn’t nearly as bad as it’s made out to be, and I struggle to suggest any real alternative. The problem is that Jira do a lot of different things, and mixing those those things results in people having a bad time. An example: don’t try to use Kanban board unless you’re planning on doing so in all project. Jira will happily show “kanban” tickets in the same overview as an ITIL incident, resulting in teams having to mentally switch between different workflows.
- drunkpotato 5y ago
  Jira isn't nearly as bad as it's made out to be, only because it's so, so, so much worse. It makes simple things obtuse and absurdly difficult, all in the name of flexibility that is more liability than feature. I hate Jira with the burning passion of a thousand fiery suns. I've used a bespoke ticketing system. I've used Trello. I've used stickies on a whiteboard. They each had their pros and cons, but every single one of them was infinitely better than the shithole that is Jira.
- solarkraft 5y ago
  Jira is overloaded, a bit slow and a bit glitchy. But lots of software is. I tend to think that people mostly hate Jira because it reminds them of their dysfunctional processes and work in general. Personally, from my work experience, I despise Visual Studio and Outlook a lot more (Jira is clearly trying to be usable compared to these).
  - kwertyoowiyop 5y ago
    I despise Jira because it is a bloated sluggish mess, and clearly the execs at Atlassian don’t give a crap about improving its performance or fixing the rough edges of its interface. Never have I loved Devtrack more than when I had to use Jira.
- claytonjy 5y ago
  I agree, but the need to know special rules like this is exactly why JIRA's UX is so awful. I want my project management tools to guide us into a pit of success, not a dark rabbit hole full of sharp object.

WatchDog 5y ago

I don't think you are necessarily wrong, but I'm not sure what this adds to the discussion. There are plenty of competent people in non-programming domains. If "no-code" solutions can help these people build tools useful to them, that seems like a great thing to me.

jacquesm 5y ago

> I'm talking about scrum masters who have trouble navigating Jira, business analysts who aren't able to have a written conversation, product owners who struggle to create Outlook calendar invites. None of those have anything to do with writing software. You are mentioning two commercial packages with shitty user interfaces and you're talking about the skill of writing, which is hard for most people who need to write out a logical argument instead of winging it. Apropos...

ozim 5y ago
It has to do with people not willing to put even faintest effort in learning how to use or operate stuff that they use on a daily basis. You don't have to know JIRA "in and out" to open a board and move tickets around. If you put in 30 mins one day to set up your workflow you are done for the rest of your life. Unless other people come by and mess with the workflow, which also is not problem of JIRA but of people. So it is not that people are stupid - it is more that people don't want to learn things. Learning things is hard. Which goes back to why normal people run in terror when they see command line or some code. Problem is with low code or no code platforms people still have to put in conscious effort to learn those tools and put the same effort understanding what they are doing. I think that is the point that *booleandilemma* is making. In the end from my POV biggest lie of "low code" is that it makes stuff simpler, but in reality it does not, you still have conditions and loops and all state to keep in mind while "low coding".

scandox 5y ago

A lot of programmers aren't capable of writing software. This is a nothing argument. Lots of office workers are very intelligent people.

marginalia_nu 5y ago

> I'm talking about scrum masters who have trouble navigating Jira I've been programming for 20 years and I still can't navigate Jira. The interface makes vim feel like a marvel of intuitive interface design.

thr0wawayf00 5y ago
8-year programmer here and I completely agree. JIRA is a perfect example of a tool that has grown so big and feature-flexible that very little is intuitive anymore.

solarkraft 5y ago

I have trouble seeing your argument. People are stupid? You may be surprised to see how good people are in their respective domains.