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While Apple is definitely a monopolist, this is probably the one monopoly we all have to hope they're allowed to maintain. Safari on iOS is basically the sole d

While Apple is definitely a monopolist, this is probably the one monopoly we all have to hope they're allowed to maintain. Safari on iOS is basically the sole defense of the open web. Once Apple is forced to fold on this, every website will be built solely to run on the Chromium code base exclusively. The fact web developers have to use open standards to support iOS is basically the only reason we have open standards on the web today.

kevin_thibedeau 5y ago
Imagine if Firefox had been allowed 16 years to become the premier iOS browser.
root_axis 5y ago
I'd hardly call it "a defense of the open web", Apple has hamstrung Safari for years to keep the App Store on iOS competitive with the exploding capabilities of every other modern browser. Chromium is popular because people like it.
- ocdtrekkie 5y ago
  This is exactly the narrative that Google's marketing folks have screamed to the heavens and any shill outlet that will publish it, yes. :) Chrome is not popular because people like it. Chrome is popular because Google forces over 80% of phones on the planet to ship with it as default, and because people trying to install Adobe Reader and Adobe Flash Player would suddenly discover their default browser was now Google Chrome. And then, once they had a decent install base... a lot of other people installed Chrome because some poorly written website that didn't follow web standards told them it'd only work well if they installed Chrome. Like Gmail, the world's most popular email client.
  - Jensson 5y ago
    Still better than banning competing browser engines entirely like Apple does.
  - lenkite 5y ago
    People can install alternative browsers (real ones not shallow skins) on both Android and Chromebook. You cannot do that on iOS.
  - root_axis 5y ago
    > Chrome is popular because Google forces over 80% of phones on the planet to ship with it as default This is false. Yet, even if it were true, Chrome's 75% marketshare outside of mobile is strong evidence that it's pretty popular.
    - Dylan16807 5y ago
      > This is false. What's false about it? It's either chrome or chrome-based, isn't it? Or can you actually get the play store if you have a default browser of firefox? > Chrome's 75% marketshare outside of mobile Is covered by the rest of the sentence.
  - adam_arthur 5y ago
    It became popular because it was faster and better, despite the memory hog memes. One of the rare cases where a non default option overtook the defaults.
    - disgruntledphd2 5y ago
      Nope. It became popular because Google advertised it on their homepage for years.
      - adam_arthur 5y ago
        Doesn't matter, Safari and IE were defaults, no advertising needed. Chrome wouldn't have prevailed if those browsers were even close to as good at the time.
    - lwkl 5y ago
      Microsoft also was forced by the EU to offer a browser choice in a fresh install of Windows. At least in Europe this probably offered a lot of visibility to alternative web browsers. Also IE felt years behind the competition and the situation isn't even remotely comparable to Safari. It seems like the Safari team made some efforts to catch up. While they aren't at the same point as Firefox or Chromium they did catch up a little bit over the last year. The situation with IE was completely different. Microsoft used IE to push proprietary standards like ActiveX and it felt like there wasn't really a active development team for Internet Explorer or that Microsoft IE wasn't a priority. The first thing isn't true for Safari and while it feels like Safari wasn't a priority for Apple they announced making more of an effort if I remember correctly and if they don't Safari will probably go down the same road as IE.
      - ClumsyPilot 5y ago
        The situation is totally identical, the 'distinctions' you outlined are debatable, but even if true, have no relevance to the antitrust law. This is the equivalent of just like 'well he stabbed a man, but the guy deserved it and was a filthy pleb"
  - ahtihn 5y ago
    So if the only reason people use Chrome is that it comes pre-installed on Android, it shouldn't matter if it's allowed on iOS right? Most people would keep using the pre-installed Safari right?
  - pininja 5y ago
    I don’t disagree that these phones, installers, and design prompts contribute to significant market share. It doesn’t change my opinion that Chrome has the best performance, developer experience, and latest API features. It’s the only browser trying to give web apps access to the expensive hardware I paid for. I know it’s a hot take to like that, but unfortunately tons of my desktop software must be connected to the internet anyways to make sure I’ve paid a subscription bolted on a few versions ago :( I prefer the sandbox and portability of a web app when that’s my alternative.
summerlight 5y ago
It's fairly easy for Apple to prove their pure intention of "protecting the open web". Just implement web push notification and a few other top feature requests from ordinary web developers.
- ocdtrekkie 5y ago
  "Just implement all of what Google tells you to, then you will prove you support the open web" This is the root of the problem: Google isn't the open web, Google is the one closing it. Also, Chrome's notification API is, in practice, that thing I have to shut off when people keep asking why porn ads are constantly popping up on their PC in the bottom right corner. Probably not a great model for others to follow.
lenkite 5y ago
Safari isn't protecting the web, it's killing it https://httptoolkit.tech/blog/safari-is-killing-the-web/ https://httptoolkit.tech/blog/safari-is-killing-the-web/ The largest Safari complaint is unrelated to experimental features from the Chrome team: it's the showstopping bugs in implemented features, made worse by Safari's slow release cycle.
- cute_boi 5y ago
  This assumes Google ships features that are useful to people. But, what do we get in return? A privacy-invading feature like FLoC which thankfully has been disbanded. And Google even controls specs. Thankfully, due to safari web is free from the monopoly of Chrome. Today some website doesn't work in firefox. Do you think that is good for the web? I understand the shenanigans of Apple here. They just want to make sure people make apps instead of the website so, that they can egregiously charge a yearly fee + 30% of revenue. But safari does protect the web in some way by challenging Google.
  - AaronFriel 5y ago
    Google isn't the only company shipping a browser. They may be the highest by market share, but I think that Firefox, Brave, and numerous others would like to be able to compete on the merits on iOS. They cannot.
    - cute_boi 5y ago
      Brave Engine - Google Chromium Edge - Google Chromium Vivaldi - Google Chromium Opera - Guess what? Yes its Google Chromium Electron - Google Chromium The only two other engines are: Webkit Firefox Firefox is barely surviving and is using funds from Google. If Google stop those funds, its gone. Webkit is from Apple and if you look on my apple it is only alternative till today. If IOS allow other browser then you should know web will be in hands of Google. Google can do whatever they like. And web being in hands of Google is dangerous.
      - 5y ago
jameslk 5y ago
We must have Apple's monopoly so we can prevent Google's monopoly? And if we tear down Apple's monopoly somehow we won't be able to tear down Google's? Or am I missing something in this logic
- kgc 5y ago
  Because Google gives away their stuff for "free" it's difficult to make a monopoly claim against them.
  - jameslk 5y ago
    Wasn't Internet Explorer free?
Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago
No. The correct course of action is this: dismantle one monopoly, by forcing Apple to allow alternative appstores and whatever apps users want to run, them dismantle another monopoly, by, I don't know, splitting Chrome to a separate company from Google or something.
- ocdtrekkie 5y ago
  I agree, but we have to deal with Chrome first, and then we can deal with Apple on this issue. The moment Safari stops being required on iOS, the web is dead as an open platform, and good luck getting it back. Even spinning off Chrome might not be enough: Even if it's not Google, it'd still be the entire web platform controlled and implemented by one group.
  - Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago
    The moment Safari stops being required on iOS nothing will change at all, because very few users will run to install chrome. Safari would still come pre-installed and used by default. However, it would probably develop faster. As for 'over group' - no, with the crucial advantage of Chrome bundled with Android and Google gone, other players will pick up quickly, competing for those lucrative deals with the search engines. Currently this space is dead because nobody dares competing with Alphabet.
artez333 5y ago
Hey apple! Here is what I do to your safari users: if(/iPad|iPhone|iPod/.test(navigator.userAgent) && /WebKit/i.test(avigator.userAgent)) document.body.remove() If you don't support mobile PWA notifications, we don't support your users. Thank you!

kevin_thibedeau 5y ago

Imagine if Firefox had been allowed 16 years to become the premier iOS browser.

root_axis 5y ago

I'd hardly call it "a defense of the open web", Apple has hamstrung Safari for years to keep the App Store on iOS competitive with the exploding capabilities of every other modern browser. Chromium is popular because people like it.

ocdtrekkie 5y ago
This is exactly the narrative that Google's marketing folks have screamed to the heavens and any shill outlet that will publish it, yes. :) Chrome is not popular because people like it. Chrome is popular because Google forces over 80% of phones on the planet to ship with it as default, and because people trying to install Adobe Reader and Adobe Flash Player would suddenly discover their default browser was now Google Chrome. And then, once they had a decent install base... a lot of other people installed Chrome because some poorly written website that didn't follow web standards told them it'd only work well if they installed Chrome. Like Gmail, the world's most popular email client.
- Jensson 5y ago
  Still better than banning competing browser engines entirely like Apple does.
- lenkite 5y ago
  People can install alternative browsers (real ones not shallow skins) on both Android and Chromebook. You cannot do that on iOS.
- root_axis 5y ago
  > Chrome is popular because Google forces over 80% of phones on the planet to ship with it as default This is false. Yet, even if it were true, Chrome's 75% marketshare outside of mobile is strong evidence that it's pretty popular.
  - Dylan16807 5y ago
    > This is false. What's false about it? It's either chrome or chrome-based, isn't it? Or can you actually get the play store if you have a default browser of firefox? > Chrome's 75% marketshare outside of mobile Is covered by the rest of the sentence.
- adam_arthur 5y ago
  It became popular because it was faster and better, despite the memory hog memes. One of the rare cases where a non default option overtook the defaults.
  - disgruntledphd2 5y ago
    Nope. It became popular because Google advertised it on their homepage for years.
    - adam_arthur 5y ago
      Doesn't matter, Safari and IE were defaults, no advertising needed. Chrome wouldn't have prevailed if those browsers were even close to as good at the time.
  - lwkl 5y ago
    Microsoft also was forced by the EU to offer a browser choice in a fresh install of Windows. At least in Europe this probably offered a lot of visibility to alternative web browsers. Also IE felt years behind the competition and the situation isn't even remotely comparable to Safari. It seems like the Safari team made some efforts to catch up. While they aren't at the same point as Firefox or Chromium they did catch up a little bit over the last year. The situation with IE was completely different. Microsoft used IE to push proprietary standards like ActiveX and it felt like there wasn't really a active development team for Internet Explorer or that Microsoft IE wasn't a priority. The first thing isn't true for Safari and while it feels like Safari wasn't a priority for Apple they announced making more of an effort if I remember correctly and if they don't Safari will probably go down the same road as IE.
    - ClumsyPilot 5y ago
      The situation is totally identical, the 'distinctions' you outlined are debatable, but even if true, have no relevance to the antitrust law. This is the equivalent of just like 'well he stabbed a man, but the guy deserved it and was a filthy pleb"
- ahtihn 5y ago
  So if the only reason people use Chrome is that it comes pre-installed on Android, it shouldn't matter if it's allowed on iOS right? Most people would keep using the pre-installed Safari right?
- pininja 5y ago
  I don’t disagree that these phones, installers, and design prompts contribute to significant market share. It doesn’t change my opinion that Chrome has the best performance, developer experience, and latest API features. It’s the only browser trying to give web apps access to the expensive hardware I paid for. I know it’s a hot take to like that, but unfortunately tons of my desktop software must be connected to the internet anyways to make sure I’ve paid a subscription bolted on a few versions ago :( I prefer the sandbox and portability of a web app when that’s my alternative.

summerlight 5y ago

It's fairly easy for Apple to prove their pure intention of "protecting the open web". Just implement web push notification and a few other top feature requests from ordinary web developers.

ocdtrekkie 5y ago
"Just implement all of what Google tells you to, then you will prove you support the open web" This is the root of the problem: Google isn't the open web, Google is the one closing it. Also, Chrome's notification API is, in practice, that thing I have to shut off when people keep asking why porn ads are constantly popping up on their PC in the bottom right corner. Probably not a great model for others to follow.

lenkite 5y ago

Safari isn't protecting the web, it's killing it https://httptoolkit.tech/blog/safari-is-killing-the-web/ https://httptoolkit.tech/blog/safari-is-killing-the-web/ The largest Safari complaint is unrelated to experimental features from the Chrome team: it's the showstopping bugs in implemented features, made worse by Safari's slow release cycle.

cute_boi 5y ago
This assumes Google ships features that are useful to people. But, what do we get in return? A privacy-invading feature like FLoC which thankfully has been disbanded. And Google even controls specs. Thankfully, due to safari web is free from the monopoly of Chrome. Today some website doesn't work in firefox. Do you think that is good for the web? I understand the shenanigans of Apple here. They just want to make sure people make apps instead of the website so, that they can egregiously charge a yearly fee + 30% of revenue. But safari does protect the web in some way by challenging Google.
- AaronFriel 5y ago
  Google isn't the only company shipping a browser. They may be the highest by market share, but I think that Firefox, Brave, and numerous others would like to be able to compete on the merits on iOS. They cannot.
  - cute_boi 5y ago
    Brave Engine - Google Chromium Edge - Google Chromium Vivaldi - Google Chromium Opera - Guess what? Yes its Google Chromium Electron - Google Chromium The only two other engines are: Webkit Firefox Firefox is barely surviving and is using funds from Google. If Google stop those funds, its gone. Webkit is from Apple and if you look on my apple it is only alternative till today. If IOS allow other browser then you should know web will be in hands of Google. Google can do whatever they like. And web being in hands of Google is dangerous.
    - 5y ago

jameslk 5y ago

We must have Apple's monopoly so we can prevent Google's monopoly? And if we tear down Apple's monopoly somehow we won't be able to tear down Google's? Or am I missing something in this logic

kgc 5y ago
Because Google gives away their stuff for "free" it's difficult to make a monopoly claim against them.
- jameslk 5y ago
  Wasn't Internet Explorer free?

Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago

No. The correct course of action is this: dismantle one monopoly, by forcing Apple to allow alternative appstores and whatever apps users want to run, them dismantle another monopoly, by, I don't know, splitting Chrome to a separate company from Google or something.

ocdtrekkie 5y ago
I agree, but we have to deal with Chrome first, and then we can deal with Apple on this issue. The moment Safari stops being required on iOS, the web is dead as an open platform, and good luck getting it back. Even spinning off Chrome might not be enough: Even if it's not Google, it'd still be the entire web platform controlled and implemented by one group.
- Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago
  The moment Safari stops being required on iOS nothing will change at all, because very few users will run to install chrome. Safari would still come pre-installed and used by default. However, it would probably develop faster. As for 'over group' - no, with the crucial advantage of Chrome bundled with Android and Google gone, other players will pick up quickly, competing for those lucrative deals with the search engines. Currently this space is dead because nobody dares competing with Alphabet.

artez333 5y ago

Hey apple! Here is what I do to your safari users: if(/iPad|iPhone|iPod/.test(navigator.userAgent) && /WebKit/i.test(avigator.userAgent)) document.body.remove() If you don't support mobile PWA notifications, we don't support your users. Thank you!