10 ms·

This is the fundamental issue with coronavirus mitigation measures. There are circumstances in which "drop everything" makes sense - if coronavirus were ten tim

by throwaway22032 5y ago

This is the fundamental issue with coronavirus mitigation measures. There are circumstances in which "drop everything" makes sense - if coronavirus were ten times more fatal, we'd do it naturally. But in general, looking at life from a perspective of "what is the minimum possible quality of life we can have" is depressing and fundamentally incompatible with the human spirit. I tend to think that people who operate in this way are subhuman, in the genuine sense of the word - they seem more like bureaucratic automatons than living beings with spirits and hopes and dreams. Like, yeah, I will take the risk of contracting coronavirus to play the piano, because I want the piano in my life. The piano is what life is, life is not simply breathing and eating.

laserlight 5y ago
> if coronavirus were ten times more fatal, we'd do it naturally. What if people didn’t? What then? How would that be different from today?
spookthesunset 5y ago
For two years we’ve been asked to park our problems and to act like literally all that matters is the spread of Covid. Nothing else matters. Just a myopic fixation on the spread of one highly infectious respiratory virus. Even a year after vaccines we are still being asked to treat Covid like it is the #1 priority in our lives. More important than our well being, our mental health, our communities, our children, or anything else. Heaven help you if your value system is incompatible with such an idea. Be prepared to be yelled at, called names, lose your career, and become marginalized.
- giantg2 5y ago
  "Even a year after vaccines we are still being asked to treat Covid like it is the #1 priority in our lives. More important than our well being, our mental health, our communities, our children, or anything else." Depends on where you live. There are many rural/red areas that are basically back to normal.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- edgyquant 5y ago
  Well put. I’m a 29 year old male who moved to a new city right before covid and my life has basically been put on hold for two years now with my only access to meeting potential partners being Tinder (or bars, I suppose.) All the activities I try to join (other than my BJJ classes) are remote. Chess club is remote (might as well just play chess.com) my bipolar support group is remote, etc.
  - standardUser 5y ago
    I am very curious, which city? I moved to NYC in early pandemic and have had an extremely robust dating and social life. Even in 2020 dating was not difficult here. And for the past year or so life has been 95% normal, with big events, shows, packed bars, etc.
- hydrok9 5y ago
  How about if you have anxiety issues and the reduced inflow of air from masks gives you panic attacks? This has been my life for this pandemic. I take medication but it does not stop them 100% from happening, and I have to use anti-anxiety techniques most times I put one on to stop from being overwhelmed by anticipation. Does anyone care about people like me? It sure feels like they don't. And I have seen my physical and mental condition degrade largely due to this (I was never personally panicked by the virus itself). There are others like me and it is deeply upsetting that we have to suffer like this.
  - PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago
    [ EDIT: other commenters response to this comment made me go look up some original research on the topic. As a result, I fully retract what I've said below. I found several papers that report substantial restrictions of airflow from wearing a correctly fitted N95 mask. I was wrong, and I apologize for the misinformation. I did try to explicitly say that I was not doubting someone's experiences, but I apologize for appearing to do that too. I've left the text up because that seems more honest. ] I do not want to seek to diminish your very real anxiety and panic issues. But you should be aware that there is no actual reduced inflow of air due to mask wearing, certainly not one that you would detect physiologically. In 2020, there were numerous demonstrations of this, both with actual measurements (lung volume, blood oxygen etc.) and with more anecdotal illustrations such as vigorous exercise even while wearing multiple masks. Your mental conditions matter, and I hope you are able find ways to live reasonably happily without too much anxiety.
    - hydrok9 5y ago
      I do not want to seek to diminish your very real belief that my issues are not real. But they are. My panic attacks in public started when I had to wear masks. When I am anxious or stressed, my breathing shallows. When this happens and I am wearing a mask, i have even less airflow coming in. I have tested this by simply lowering my mask, and examining how much air enters my nasal cavity. It is a huge difference. Or, I should say, it makes a huge difference to my mental state, even if the change in oxygen is relatively small. My psychiatrist, therapist and gp all confirmed this. Frankly, you should trust people with these actual conditions. We are living it, you aren't.
- subsubzero 5y ago
  The north star for most countries and cities has always been cases over hospitalizations or deaths. With vaccine intake high in most developed countries a covid infection is like a cold or a bad flu for some. I think the time has come to rethink this goal of cases being a metric to shut down everything and let society return to some sense of normalcy while still maintaining a safety mandate for those with special conditions(who could potentially die from covid). Another thing to note, the CDC has mentioned that cloth masks are not effective against omnicron, I know this firsthand as my whole family wore them and we all spread it to each other as the masks did not stop the spread despite hospital levels of disinfection and extreme precaution. With that being said most kids masks are cloth and surgical masks or n95/kn95 masks(cdc says these are effective) are not made for little kids. So whats going on is kids are forced to wear masks that will not protect them against omicron. Lastly, although the sample size is low my daughter and other kids in her class got covid and had zero symptoms or very minor ones at worst(they were all fully vaccinated) so I wonder what is the benefit of these extreme precautions that don't really seem relevant based on government health declarations(cloth masks don't work, kids[who don't have serious medical issues] have good protection against covid due to age).
  - hammock 5y ago
    Sounds like you are on a path to awakening so I don't want to discourage you, but it might be worth sharing additional data and context to parts of your comment. >With vaccine intake high in most developed countries a covid infection is like a cold or a bad flu for some. That may be more driven by the mildness of Omicron than it is by the protective effect of the vaccine. For example, the latest data show that vaccinated (but not boosted) are getting sick and dying at higher rates than unvaccinated. One source (14 per 100k vs 10 per 100k): https://publichealthscotland.scot/media/11318/22-01-26-covid19-winter_publication_report.pdf https://publichealthscotland.scot/media/11318/22-01-26-covid... >Another thing to note, the CDC has mentioned that cloth masks are not effective against omnicron This is something that is in all likelihood not variant-specific. In other words, cloth masks were always ineffective, however with the increased transmissibility of Omicron, this fact of ineffectiveness has become readily apparent.
    - 5y ago
- standardUser 5y ago
  I have to assume you live on the West Coast. I have spent a couple months in and around SF during pandemic, but I live in NYC and have travelled to many other places. The West Coast experience seems to be a singularly restrictive experience. I'd hesitate to assume the entire nation is experiencing things the same way as you describe them (they are not). Though it does seem like many students across the nation are getting the super-restrictive experience as well.
  - dymk 5y ago
    It also depends where on the West Coast you live, of course. It's more of a city/rural divide. I live south of Seattle. Seattle is restrictive, everybody outside is wearing masks, many restaurants are still take-out only, business are open for limited hours. But you go 40 minutes south to, say, Puyallup, and the COVID restrictions are much more relaxed (if present at all).
    - techsupporter 5y ago
      > Puyallup, and the COVID restrictions are much more relaxed (if present at all). Meanwhile, the medical group I work for in Seattle is being absolutely swamped by patients being transferred from overwhelmed hospital and urgent care facilities in Pierce and Thurston counties. We've had to stop doing anything but COVID-related care and the only reason we have the capacity to do that is because we don't operate an emergency room so we can't take on the worst-of-the-worst cases. According to our daily COVID update report, we have a handful of patients who gave residence addresses--we ask for this because the county and state departments of health want it for statistics, among other reasons--inside Seattle and just a few more inside King County. It's a very stressful time for many of us, and it isn't helped by the disparity in level of care, let's say, over COVID prevention measures even inside the region.
      - dymk 5y ago
        I'd imagine this is also due, at least in part, to Pierce County / South Sound having a lower vaccination rate than the Seattle metro area.
- jasonlotito 5y ago
  > For two years we’ve been asked to park our problems and to act like literally all that matters is the spread of Covid. The problem is only half the population really followed through. These measures are still needed more because half the population effectively thinks COVID is no big deal or a hoax.
  - xigoi 5y ago
    Many of the restrictions were mandatory, so all people had to follow through…
    - ajford 5y ago
      Yeah, just because it was mandatory doesn't mean people followed through. I live in a very progressive city and we still had many people refusing to follow mask mandates at the height of pre-vaccine pandemic. People ripping down mask signs, spitting on people, arguing at the doors to a store, etc.
      - xigoi 5y ago
        Interesting, I haven't noticed any of that. Maybe my country has a different mentality. I do see some people not having the masks cover their nose, but definitely nowhere near 50%, more like 5% at worst.
        ajford 5y ago
        Totally get that. A friend of mine from Finland said compliance with mandates and safety advisories was a lot better back home than those in the US. There's a lot of people in the US arguing that mask mandates and other medical precautions are "violating their freedom".
      - spookthesunset 5y ago
        As they should. Mask mandates were always more religion than science. Calmer heads decades from now will suggest as much.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- Mockapapella 5y ago
  Just to throw my anecdote into the ring -- I live in a mid sized city in the midwest. People have largely stopped wearing masks since about March of last year in all places except for hospitals (and even then it's just those crappy generic blue masks). My GF and I actually had a bit of culture shock when we took a trip to Chicago a few weeks ago and 95%+ people were wearing masks everywhere they went, along with private businesses requiring masks and proof of vaccination. It's not like the people around here aren't aware of COVID-19 and the subsequent variants, we just kind of moved on.
criddell 5y ago
I have a feeling that if the same people were tasked with setting road speed limits, they would set it to 20 mph and argue that 30,000 lives will be saved each year. They aren't wrong, but it's misjudging the risk most of us are willing to accept for the benefits of being able to move around quickly.
- throwaway22032 5y ago
  Ah, that one's actually happening. There are actual attempts to ban cars in my neighbourhood now because some people judge that the marginal effects of air pollution outweigh the enormous benefit of me being able to visit my friends and family in literally a quarter of the time. These people don't think about benefit. It's only cost. I've come to think of them as simply being depressed, in the chemical imbalance sense.
  - jasonshaev 5y ago
    And here you are making pseudoscientific judgements (chemical imbalance?!) about a huge number of people you've lumped into a group and referred to as "these people." I'm seriously surprised you haven't been downvoted off this thread.
- cardanome 5y ago
  You are grossly misrepresenting the argument. It is about 30mph inside cities. Which is a great idea, not just for saving lives but for substantially increasing quality of life of everyone living there. The greatest cause of noise in cities is traffic. Setting a strict speed limit would substantially reduce this. (Also side benefits like better air quality and so on) And traffic would actually flow better, so you might not even reach your destination that much later. You can be protect your individual freedom at all cost and treat everything as a zero sum game or you can bee cooperative and help build a better world for everyone by compromising a bit.
- thehappypm 5y ago
  They’d probably ban cars, airplanes, multi story buildings, solid food..
gglitch 5y ago
> Like, yeah, I will take the risk of contracting coronavirus to play the piano, because I want the piano in my life. I'm sympathetic to your point (and I love to play piano), but I can't help but ask, if we slightly reword your claim: would you be willing to take responsibility for spreading coronavirus to n other people so you can play the piano? Edit, to be clear: I'm not talking about the piano, or surface transmission; I'm talking about the values.
- hammock 5y ago
  48 million Americans get food poisoning every year, many dying. Are you going to stop cooking for your family and friends?
  - gglitch 5y ago
    Yeeeaaah, I realize my point was easy to make a caricature of, but that's a pretty specious caricature. I'm talking about an effort to balance safety and freedom from a more collective and thoughtful perspective.
- jaywalk 5y ago
  How is him playing the piano spreading anything aside from possibly joy and happiness? What a ridiculous thing to say.
  - gglitch 5y ago
    Yeah, sorry for not being more clear, but I wasn't talking about that person, or the piano, or about the odds of someone contracting COVID from surfaces. I was using the quote to illustrate what I see as a difficult pair of values to balance that situations like masks in classrooms, or other shared-space restrictions, really throw into painfully high relief: how do we collectively, as a society, balance our own personal inclinations (i.e., in this case, to play the piano, or in OP, to let our kids go unmasked) with whatever risks we impose on other people (i.e., in this case, which for the record I totally agree is excessive, that the shared piano will help spread disease; or in the outer case, that fewer masks in the classroom could lead to, e.g., more sick grandparents, or teachers)?
eli_gottlieb 5y ago
>There are circumstances in which "drop everything" makes sense - if coronavirus were ten times more fatal, we'd do it naturally. It was pretty damn fatal when we had no containment measures or vaccines. We're in a totally different situation now, and need to get out of the "minimize cases" mentality.
- nradov 5y ago
  When we had no containment measures or vaccines the CDC estimated the infection fatality rate at about 0.6%.
mdavis6890 5y ago
I upvoted your comment for your overall sentiment about focusing on what life is really about, and not driving to the lowest-common-denominator of quality of life. But I'd also like to downvote you for the this comment: "I tend to think that people who operate in this way are subhuman, in the genuine sense of the word" >> It's not right, not useful, and not reflective. Much better is to assume others are also smart, well-educated and well-intentioned, and then try to genuinely understand why they believe or act the way they do.
lemmsjid 5y ago
Perhaps instead I might be following Covid guidelines for the following reasons: so I don't pass the infection onto those who are indeed vulnerable; so I don't overtax an already overtaxed healthcare system and healthcare workers. Part of the ineffable human spirit, IMHO, is altruism: which in this case can manifest as taking on a set of mild day to day inconveniences in order to help others be happier and safer. I do believe altruism is a (not exclusively) human characteristic, which means that part of 'joie de vive', alongside wine, piano playing, etc., is knowing one is doing something for others. Honestly, I don't think it's as extreme as "if coronavirus were ten times more fatal" that would lead us to naturally take on mitigations. Instead, it would be if the death rate were evenly spread across age groups. Then, the motivation for avoiding some piano playing would be the immediate cost to self or close friends, rather than the abstract cost to some other group. All that said I am quite sympathetic to the motivation behind your argument, but I believe you and GP are ignoring some motivations people might have for following or being 'bureaucratic automatons'.
- Zanneth 5y ago
  At this point, the most vulnerable have a sophisticated arsenal of tools to prevent themselves from being seriously affected by the virus. Vaccines, antivirals, masks like N95 that work to protect the wearer, etc. In my opinion it is no longer the duty of the non-vulnerable, especially children, to carry the burden of the pandemic because of the extremely negative consequences of these countermeasures.
- tmnvix 5y ago
  > so I don't pass the infection onto those who are indeed vulnerable; so I don't overtax an already overtaxed healthcare system and healthcare workers This seems reasonable and is a common point of view. It does make me curious though. Did you get a yearly flu shot prior to Covid? If not, has Covid changed your mind about this?
  - lemmsjid 5y ago
    A good question. I've done the yearly flu shot for over a decade. But before that I was A) not a flu shot getter, B) a more reckless driver, and C) etc. etc. My sense of the impact of my actions on other peoples safety seems to have grown over the years, from a near complete lack of consciousness in my teens and early twenties to a stronger feeling today. Probably a not unusual path. And people including myself are good at rationalizing their choices, good or bad. To the subject of the article: If our child's school decided to not require masks (they currently do) I would go ahead with that without undue worry about the children, assuming the school were representing the will of the teachers. I believe overall the teachers should have the strongest say in the matter because they're the highest risk group involved.
jasonshaev 5y ago
Referring to other humans as "subhuman" is disrespectful, at best. Where do you get off saying ANYONE isn't a "living being[s] with spirits and hopes and dreams?" Having different priorities than you do does not make someone "subhuman" and I would seriously reconsider the language you are using.
- throwaway22032 5y ago
mcguire 5y ago
You would take that risk, everyone you know will take that risk, everyone they know will take that risk....
jancsika 5y ago
> I tend to think that people who operate in this way are subhuman, in the genuine sense of the word - they seem more like bureaucratic automatons than living beings with spirits and hopes and dreams. Quick capsule hypothesis-- you tend toward thinking in a way that results in you having written the word "subhuman" on HN because an active pandemic tends to increase feelings of disgust in the affected population. Did you consider that possibility? Edit: wording
- throwaway22032 5y ago
  Why look for a statistical hypothesis when I have the actual reasoning? I specifically want to exclude bureaucratic people from my life, it's not a new thing since coronavirus. I don't find the "pandemic" disgusting at all, to be honest, it's a low severity virus. I've had it, zero negative effect. I genuinely find it bizarre that people would have an issue with me using a potentially slightly offensive word to describe someone, but have no issue with the use of force to seperate people from their families. Like, you need to go right back to basics on your entire thought process there because there's been a complete logical breakdown.
autoexec 5y ago
> Like, yeah, I will take the risk of contracting coronavirus to play the piano, because I want the piano in my life. The problem comes when it's "I will take the risk of infecting others who are vulnerable, of contributing to overwhelming the already struggling healthcare system, and of damaging the economy to play the piano, because it doesn't matter how many people are infected or are dying every single day I care more about myself getting the things I want right now than I care about any of those things." There's no need to frame the issue as if folks are being told they can't do anything they enjoy ever again and have to devote their whole lives to simply breathing and eating either. It's a false dichotomy that we have to choose between common sense measures for the good of our community and limiting ourselves to "what is the minimum possible quality of life we can have". We can instead make smart choices based on the degree of community spread which can mean putting off certain activities, but often times just means putting on a mask and washing our hands. It's not a huge ask.
ajford 5y ago
To me, this ignores the fact that a death of a loved/cared for individual is the most "minimum quality of life" you can get. Sure, being able to go watch a family movie together used to be a big family thing, but we can't do that anymore. Our QOL has dropped in that regard, but it's far less impactful than saying to heck with it and going to the theater and having my kid or an in-law catch Covid and die. Long Covid even indicates there's a chance that surviving Covid leaves you with a long-term impact to QOL. Why take that risk over minor irritation in the near term? Sure, masks are tedious and annoying. But to my youngest, so are shirts and shoes. If he had his choice, he'd run around all damn day in underwear or shorts. But society as a whole benefits from a general adherence to everyone wearing shirts and shoes in public. He's got the same feelings towards seatbelts. Just like masks, seatbelts are only a half-measure. They don't prevent you from dying in a car crash, but they give some modicum of benefit overall. There's a higher chance of surviving a crash with a seatbelt on, even if it's not guaranteed. All of these "I'm done with masks/precautions" statements are made in a void while ignoring the ripple effect that stems from that. There's a turning point where life will have to resume one way or another, but the longer we can go as a civilization with a reduced QOL the better the chances of resolving the pandemic with fewer deaths all around.
- AllegedAlec 5y ago
  > To me, this ignores the fact that a death of a loved/cared for individual is the most "minimum quality of life" you can get. Counterpoint: my grandmother spent her last two years in perpetual loneliness because of covid measures in care homes preventing our family from ensuring full time visitors.
  - ajford 5y ago
    Up front here, I'm in no way attempting to demean your loss. As a counter-counterpoint; Buddy of mine by way of a local community group lost his elderly mother in a care home because someone decided to come in to visit last year while unknowingly covid-positive. It swept through the wing and at least three other residents died from Covid complications. My friend himself ended up catching it from his mother and was in ICU when she passed herself. Lack of social connections can be overcome with virtual communications. It's not the same as true face to face interaction, but it beats killing someone with your mere presence.

laserlight 5y ago

> if coronavirus were ten times more fatal, we'd do it naturally. What if people didn’t? What then? How would that be different from today?

spookthesunset 5y ago

For two years we’ve been asked to park our problems and to act like literally all that matters is the spread of Covid. Nothing else matters. Just a myopic fixation on the spread of one highly infectious respiratory virus. Even a year after vaccines we are still being asked to treat Covid like it is the #1 priority in our lives. More important than our well being, our mental health, our communities, our children, or anything else. Heaven help you if your value system is incompatible with such an idea. Be prepared to be yelled at, called names, lose your career, and become marginalized.

giantg2 5y ago
"Even a year after vaccines we are still being asked to treat Covid like it is the #1 priority in our lives. More important than our well being, our mental health, our communities, our children, or anything else." Depends on where you live. There are many rural/red areas that are basically back to normal.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
edgyquant 5y ago
Well put. I’m a 29 year old male who moved to a new city right before covid and my life has basically been put on hold for two years now with my only access to meeting potential partners being Tinder (or bars, I suppose.) All the activities I try to join (other than my BJJ classes) are remote. Chess club is remote (might as well just play chess.com) my bipolar support group is remote, etc.
- standardUser 5y ago
  I am very curious, which city? I moved to NYC in early pandemic and have had an extremely robust dating and social life. Even in 2020 dating was not difficult here. And for the past year or so life has been 95% normal, with big events, shows, packed bars, etc.
hydrok9 5y ago
How about if you have anxiety issues and the reduced inflow of air from masks gives you panic attacks? This has been my life for this pandemic. I take medication but it does not stop them 100% from happening, and I have to use anti-anxiety techniques most times I put one on to stop from being overwhelmed by anticipation. Does anyone care about people like me? It sure feels like they don't. And I have seen my physical and mental condition degrade largely due to this (I was never personally panicked by the virus itself). There are others like me and it is deeply upsetting that we have to suffer like this.
- PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago
  [ EDIT: other commenters response to this comment made me go look up some original research on the topic. As a result, I fully retract what I've said below. I found several papers that report substantial restrictions of airflow from wearing a correctly fitted N95 mask. I was wrong, and I apologize for the misinformation. I did try to explicitly say that I was not doubting someone's experiences, but I apologize for appearing to do that too. I've left the text up because that seems more honest. ] I do not want to seek to diminish your very real anxiety and panic issues. But you should be aware that there is no actual reduced inflow of air due to mask wearing, certainly not one that you would detect physiologically. In 2020, there were numerous demonstrations of this, both with actual measurements (lung volume, blood oxygen etc.) and with more anecdotal illustrations such as vigorous exercise even while wearing multiple masks. Your mental conditions matter, and I hope you are able find ways to live reasonably happily without too much anxiety.
  - hydrok9 5y ago
    I do not want to seek to diminish your very real belief that my issues are not real. But they are. My panic attacks in public started when I had to wear masks. When I am anxious or stressed, my breathing shallows. When this happens and I am wearing a mask, i have even less airflow coming in. I have tested this by simply lowering my mask, and examining how much air enters my nasal cavity. It is a huge difference. Or, I should say, it makes a huge difference to my mental state, even if the change in oxygen is relatively small. My psychiatrist, therapist and gp all confirmed this. Frankly, you should trust people with these actual conditions. We are living it, you aren't.
subsubzero 5y ago
The north star for most countries and cities has always been cases over hospitalizations or deaths. With vaccine intake high in most developed countries a covid infection is like a cold or a bad flu for some. I think the time has come to rethink this goal of cases being a metric to shut down everything and let society return to some sense of normalcy while still maintaining a safety mandate for those with special conditions(who could potentially die from covid). Another thing to note, the CDC has mentioned that cloth masks are not effective against omnicron, I know this firsthand as my whole family wore them and we all spread it to each other as the masks did not stop the spread despite hospital levels of disinfection and extreme precaution. With that being said most kids masks are cloth and surgical masks or n95/kn95 masks(cdc says these are effective) are not made for little kids. So whats going on is kids are forced to wear masks that will not protect them against omicron. Lastly, although the sample size is low my daughter and other kids in her class got covid and had zero symptoms or very minor ones at worst(they were all fully vaccinated) so I wonder what is the benefit of these extreme precautions that don't really seem relevant based on government health declarations(cloth masks don't work, kids[who don't have serious medical issues] have good protection against covid due to age).
- hammock 5y ago
  Sounds like you are on a path to awakening so I don't want to discourage you, but it might be worth sharing additional data and context to parts of your comment. >With vaccine intake high in most developed countries a covid infection is like a cold or a bad flu for some. That may be more driven by the mildness of Omicron than it is by the protective effect of the vaccine. For example, the latest data show that vaccinated (but not boosted) are getting sick and dying at higher rates than unvaccinated. One source (14 per 100k vs 10 per 100k): https://publichealthscotland.scot/media/11318/22-01-26-covid19-winter_publication_report.pdf https://publichealthscotland.scot/media/11318/22-01-26-covid... >Another thing to note, the CDC has mentioned that cloth masks are not effective against omnicron This is something that is in all likelihood not variant-specific. In other words, cloth masks were always ineffective, however with the increased transmissibility of Omicron, this fact of ineffectiveness has become readily apparent.
  - 5y ago
standardUser 5y ago
I have to assume you live on the West Coast. I have spent a couple months in and around SF during pandemic, but I live in NYC and have travelled to many other places. The West Coast experience seems to be a singularly restrictive experience. I'd hesitate to assume the entire nation is experiencing things the same way as you describe them (they are not). Though it does seem like many students across the nation are getting the super-restrictive experience as well.
- dymk 5y ago
  It also depends where on the West Coast you live, of course. It's more of a city/rural divide. I live south of Seattle. Seattle is restrictive, everybody outside is wearing masks, many restaurants are still take-out only, business are open for limited hours. But you go 40 minutes south to, say, Puyallup, and the COVID restrictions are much more relaxed (if present at all).
  - techsupporter 5y ago
    > Puyallup, and the COVID restrictions are much more relaxed (if present at all). Meanwhile, the medical group I work for in Seattle is being absolutely swamped by patients being transferred from overwhelmed hospital and urgent care facilities in Pierce and Thurston counties. We've had to stop doing anything but COVID-related care and the only reason we have the capacity to do that is because we don't operate an emergency room so we can't take on the worst-of-the-worst cases. According to our daily COVID update report, we have a handful of patients who gave residence addresses--we ask for this because the county and state departments of health want it for statistics, among other reasons--inside Seattle and just a few more inside King County. It's a very stressful time for many of us, and it isn't helped by the disparity in level of care, let's say, over COVID prevention measures even inside the region.
    - dymk 5y ago
      I'd imagine this is also due, at least in part, to Pierce County / South Sound having a lower vaccination rate than the Seattle metro area.
jasonlotito 5y ago
> For two years we’ve been asked to park our problems and to act like literally all that matters is the spread of Covid. The problem is only half the population really followed through. These measures are still needed more because half the population effectively thinks COVID is no big deal or a hoax.
- xigoi 5y ago
  Many of the restrictions were mandatory, so all people had to follow through…
  - ajford 5y ago
    Yeah, just because it was mandatory doesn't mean people followed through. I live in a very progressive city and we still had many people refusing to follow mask mandates at the height of pre-vaccine pandemic. People ripping down mask signs, spitting on people, arguing at the doors to a store, etc.
    - xigoi 5y ago
      Interesting, I haven't noticed any of that. Maybe my country has a different mentality. I do see some people not having the masks cover their nose, but definitely nowhere near 50%, more like 5% at worst.
      - ajford 5y ago
        Totally get that. A friend of mine from Finland said compliance with mandates and safety advisories was a lot better back home than those in the US. There's a lot of people in the US arguing that mask mandates and other medical precautions are "violating their freedom".
    - spookthesunset 5y ago
      As they should. Mask mandates were always more religion than science. Calmer heads decades from now will suggest as much.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
Mockapapella 5y ago
Just to throw my anecdote into the ring -- I live in a mid sized city in the midwest. People have largely stopped wearing masks since about March of last year in all places except for hospitals (and even then it's just those crappy generic blue masks). My GF and I actually had a bit of culture shock when we took a trip to Chicago a few weeks ago and 95%+ people were wearing masks everywhere they went, along with private businesses requiring masks and proof of vaccination. It's not like the people around here aren't aware of COVID-19 and the subsequent variants, we just kind of moved on.

criddell 5y ago

I have a feeling that if the same people were tasked with setting road speed limits, they would set it to 20 mph and argue that 30,000 lives will be saved each year. They aren't wrong, but it's misjudging the risk most of us are willing to accept for the benefits of being able to move around quickly.

throwaway22032 5y ago
Ah, that one's actually happening. There are actual attempts to ban cars in my neighbourhood now because some people judge that the marginal effects of air pollution outweigh the enormous benefit of me being able to visit my friends and family in literally a quarter of the time. These people don't think about benefit. It's only cost. I've come to think of them as simply being depressed, in the chemical imbalance sense.
- jasonshaev 5y ago
  And here you are making pseudoscientific judgements (chemical imbalance?!) about a huge number of people you've lumped into a group and referred to as "these people." I'm seriously surprised you haven't been downvoted off this thread.
cardanome 5y ago
You are grossly misrepresenting the argument. It is about 30mph inside cities. Which is a great idea, not just for saving lives but for substantially increasing quality of life of everyone living there. The greatest cause of noise in cities is traffic. Setting a strict speed limit would substantially reduce this. (Also side benefits like better air quality and so on) And traffic would actually flow better, so you might not even reach your destination that much later. You can be protect your individual freedom at all cost and treat everything as a zero sum game or you can bee cooperative and help build a better world for everyone by compromising a bit.
thehappypm 5y ago
They’d probably ban cars, airplanes, multi story buildings, solid food..

gglitch 5y ago

> Like, yeah, I will take the risk of contracting coronavirus to play the piano, because I want the piano in my life. I'm sympathetic to your point (and I love to play piano), but I can't help but ask, if we slightly reword your claim: would you be willing to take responsibility for spreading coronavirus to n other people so you can play the piano? Edit, to be clear: I'm not talking about the piano, or surface transmission; I'm talking about the values.

hammock 5y ago
48 million Americans get food poisoning every year, many dying. Are you going to stop cooking for your family and friends?
- gglitch 5y ago
  Yeeeaaah, I realize my point was easy to make a caricature of, but that's a pretty specious caricature. I'm talking about an effort to balance safety and freedom from a more collective and thoughtful perspective.
jaywalk 5y ago
How is him playing the piano spreading anything aside from possibly joy and happiness? What a ridiculous thing to say.
- gglitch 5y ago
  Yeah, sorry for not being more clear, but I wasn't talking about that person, or the piano, or about the odds of someone contracting COVID from surfaces. I was using the quote to illustrate what I see as a difficult pair of values to balance that situations like masks in classrooms, or other shared-space restrictions, really throw into painfully high relief: how do we collectively, as a society, balance our own personal inclinations (i.e., in this case, to play the piano, or in OP, to let our kids go unmasked) with whatever risks we impose on other people (i.e., in this case, which for the record I totally agree is excessive, that the shared piano will help spread disease; or in the outer case, that fewer masks in the classroom could lead to, e.g., more sick grandparents, or teachers)?

eli_gottlieb 5y ago

>There are circumstances in which "drop everything" makes sense - if coronavirus were ten times more fatal, we'd do it naturally. It was pretty damn fatal when we had no containment measures or vaccines. We're in a totally different situation now, and need to get out of the "minimize cases" mentality.

nradov 5y ago
When we had no containment measures or vaccines the CDC estimated the infection fatality rate at about 0.6%.

mdavis6890 5y ago

I upvoted your comment for your overall sentiment about focusing on what life is really about, and not driving to the lowest-common-denominator of quality of life. But I'd also like to downvote you for the this comment: "I tend to think that people who operate in this way are subhuman, in the genuine sense of the word" >> It's not right, not useful, and not reflective. Much better is to assume others are also smart, well-educated and well-intentioned, and then try to genuinely understand why they believe or act the way they do.

lemmsjid 5y ago

Perhaps instead I might be following Covid guidelines for the following reasons: so I don't pass the infection onto those who are indeed vulnerable; so I don't overtax an already overtaxed healthcare system and healthcare workers. Part of the ineffable human spirit, IMHO, is altruism: which in this case can manifest as taking on a set of mild day to day inconveniences in order to help others be happier and safer. I do believe altruism is a (not exclusively) human characteristic, which means that part of 'joie de vive', alongside wine, piano playing, etc., is knowing one is doing something for others. Honestly, I don't think it's as extreme as "if coronavirus were ten times more fatal" that would lead us to naturally take on mitigations. Instead, it would be if the death rate were evenly spread across age groups. Then, the motivation for avoiding some piano playing would be the immediate cost to self or close friends, rather than the abstract cost to some other group. All that said I am quite sympathetic to the motivation behind your argument, but I believe you and GP are ignoring some motivations people might have for following or being 'bureaucratic automatons'.

Zanneth 5y ago
At this point, the most vulnerable have a sophisticated arsenal of tools to prevent themselves from being seriously affected by the virus. Vaccines, antivirals, masks like N95 that work to protect the wearer, etc. In my opinion it is no longer the duty of the non-vulnerable, especially children, to carry the burden of the pandemic because of the extremely negative consequences of these countermeasures.
tmnvix 5y ago
> so I don't pass the infection onto those who are indeed vulnerable; so I don't overtax an already overtaxed healthcare system and healthcare workers This seems reasonable and is a common point of view. It does make me curious though. Did you get a yearly flu shot prior to Covid? If not, has Covid changed your mind about this?
- lemmsjid 5y ago
  A good question. I've done the yearly flu shot for over a decade. But before that I was A) not a flu shot getter, B) a more reckless driver, and C) etc. etc. My sense of the impact of my actions on other peoples safety seems to have grown over the years, from a near complete lack of consciousness in my teens and early twenties to a stronger feeling today. Probably a not unusual path. And people including myself are good at rationalizing their choices, good or bad. To the subject of the article: If our child's school decided to not require masks (they currently do) I would go ahead with that without undue worry about the children, assuming the school were representing the will of the teachers. I believe overall the teachers should have the strongest say in the matter because they're the highest risk group involved.

jasonshaev 5y ago

Referring to other humans as "subhuman" is disrespectful, at best. Where do you get off saying ANYONE isn't a "living being[s] with spirits and hopes and dreams?" Having different priorities than you do does not make someone "subhuman" and I would seriously reconsider the language you are using.

throwaway22032 5y ago

mcguire 5y ago

You would take that risk, everyone you know will take that risk, everyone they know will take that risk....

jancsika 5y ago

> I tend to think that people who operate in this way are subhuman, in the genuine sense of the word - they seem more like bureaucratic automatons than living beings with spirits and hopes and dreams. Quick capsule hypothesis-- you tend toward thinking in a way that results in you having written the word "subhuman" on HN because an active pandemic tends to increase feelings of disgust in the affected population. Did you consider that possibility? Edit: wording

throwaway22032 5y ago
Why look for a statistical hypothesis when I have the actual reasoning? I specifically want to exclude bureaucratic people from my life, it's not a new thing since coronavirus. I don't find the "pandemic" disgusting at all, to be honest, it's a low severity virus. I've had it, zero negative effect. I genuinely find it bizarre that people would have an issue with me using a potentially slightly offensive word to describe someone, but have no issue with the use of force to seperate people from their families. Like, you need to go right back to basics on your entire thought process there because there's been a complete logical breakdown.

autoexec 5y ago

> Like, yeah, I will take the risk of contracting coronavirus to play the piano, because I want the piano in my life. The problem comes when it's "I will take the risk of infecting others who are vulnerable, of contributing to overwhelming the already struggling healthcare system, and of damaging the economy to play the piano, because it doesn't matter how many people are infected or are dying every single day I care more about myself getting the things I want right now than I care about any of those things." There's no need to frame the issue as if folks are being told they can't do anything they enjoy ever again and have to devote their whole lives to simply breathing and eating either. It's a false dichotomy that we have to choose between common sense measures for the good of our community and limiting ourselves to "what is the minimum possible quality of life we can have". We can instead make smart choices based on the degree of community spread which can mean putting off certain activities, but often times just means putting on a mask and washing our hands. It's not a huge ask.

ajford 5y ago

To me, this ignores the fact that a death of a loved/cared for individual is the most "minimum quality of life" you can get. Sure, being able to go watch a family movie together used to be a big family thing, but we can't do that anymore. Our QOL has dropped in that regard, but it's far less impactful than saying to heck with it and going to the theater and having my kid or an in-law catch Covid and die. Long Covid even indicates there's a chance that surviving Covid leaves you with a long-term impact to QOL. Why take that risk over minor irritation in the near term? Sure, masks are tedious and annoying. But to my youngest, so are shirts and shoes. If he had his choice, he'd run around all damn day in underwear or shorts. But society as a whole benefits from a general adherence to everyone wearing shirts and shoes in public. He's got the same feelings towards seatbelts. Just like masks, seatbelts are only a half-measure. They don't prevent you from dying in a car crash, but they give some modicum of benefit overall. There's a higher chance of surviving a crash with a seatbelt on, even if it's not guaranteed. All of these "I'm done with masks/precautions" statements are made in a void while ignoring the ripple effect that stems from that. There's a turning point where life will have to resume one way or another, but the longer we can go as a civilization with a reduced QOL the better the chances of resolving the pandemic with fewer deaths all around.

AllegedAlec 5y ago
> To me, this ignores the fact that a death of a loved/cared for individual is the most "minimum quality of life" you can get. Counterpoint: my grandmother spent her last two years in perpetual loneliness because of covid measures in care homes preventing our family from ensuring full time visitors.
- ajford 5y ago
  Up front here, I'm in no way attempting to demean your loss. As a counter-counterpoint; Buddy of mine by way of a local community group lost his elderly mother in a care home because someone decided to come in to visit last year while unknowingly covid-positive. It swept through the wing and at least three other residents died from Covid complications. My friend himself ended up catching it from his mother and was in ICU when she passed herself. Lack of social connections can be overcome with virtual communications. It's not the same as true face to face interaction, but it beats killing someone with your mere presence.