6 ms·

The case against masks is quite trivial and generalizable across most industries. Today, a teacher now has two realistic options: a) self-isolate indefinitely

by throwaway22032 5y ago

The case against masks is quite trivial and generalizable across most industries. Today, a teacher now has two realistic options: a) self-isolate indefinitely, either teaching remotely or quitting their job b) contract coronavirus at some point Given that, masks are an irrelevance. A teacher who is clinically vulnerable and unwilling to roll the dice is left only with the option to quit their job, regardless of whether masks are used, or windows are left open, or whatever else. Coronavirus is too contagious for any sort of avoidance strategy to actually work. It's not like, say, cooking chicken, in which you can basically solve food poisoning.

damontal 5y ago
We are all getting coronavirus
zemvpferreira 5y ago
I mix in society, wear masks everywhere, and have yet to contract coronavirus.
- naasking 5y ago
  > I mix in society, wear masks everywhere, and have yet to contract coronavirus. Or you did and were asymptomatic. Something on the order of 70% of cases are largely asymptomatic IIRC. Unless you're claiming you got a PCR test every 21 days since the beginning of the pandemic?
  - zemvpferreira 5y ago
    I have not (only a few tests so far) but I'll do you one better. I have a few doctors friends who mix in society, wear masks everywhere, work in covid wards and have yet to contract coronavirus. They have to take an ungodly amount of PCRs. Point is, a lot of people have been infected so far, but not all people.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- JasonFruit 5y ago
  c) get lucky
  - mandmandam 5y ago
    Statistically speaking, isn't that just normal luck? Aren't 80% or so of infections mild to symptom free?
- mdorazio 5y ago
  You have yet to get coronavirus. There’s a pretty good chance that you will before the year is out. Omicron is extremely infectious even among the fully vaccinated. For example, among my friends group all of us are fully vaccinated and boosted, and so far 60% have gotten omicron despite wearing masks in public, washing hands frequently, etc. I expect further mutations in the future will probably happen and similarly reduce vaccine effectiveness in preventing infection.
  - Jcampuzano2 5y ago
    Depending on what test people are getting, there may be a good portion of the population who have gotten Omicron but don't know it if they had very mild symptoms. Plenty of us have off days, or may feel a little sick but don't assume it is Covid because of expecting extreme reactions even when it absolutely could be due to its symptoms overlapping others and many people being affected very little or even being asymptomatic.
- scatters 5y ago
  How do you know that? Unless you've been taking PCR tests at least weekly, it's more likely that you've had at least one asymptomatic infection.
- throwaway22032 5y ago
  We're three months in to Omicron and only two years in, your situation right now is irrelevant. The only way you're getting away with this is either by having some innate immunity, or by simply not noticing you've had it. I wouldn't have realised if not for a friend saying "get a test", my only symptom was a purple line on a bit of paper. I actually felt better than normal because I went out drinking less.
- DeWilde 5y ago
  More likely, you've had contact with it but it did not cause any symptoms. I don't think it is possible to avoid Coronavirus at this point. Unless someone had barricaded themselves in for the past 2 years they are likely to have had contact with the virus at this point.
- restingrobot 5y ago
  You will get COVID at some point, and it won't be because you were careful, you forgot to wear a mask, or you encountered unvaccinated/unmasked people. It will be because this virus is endemic and at some point everyone will get it. The idea that somehow getting or not getting COVID is due to level of diligence is absurd on its face.
- zdragnar 5y ago
  I've been exposed to covid-positive people multiple times in my home (each time they found out they were positive after), no masking involved. I get tested after each exposure and have yet to get it either. Wearing masks and not catching covid is like wearing a bandana and not getting into a bike accident. It is an extremely contagious aerosolized virus that cloth masks simply aren't sufficient to stop. Meanwhile, the effects of perpetual masking are obvious- harmful to deaf people, harmful to the development of speech and socialization in children, asthmatics and more.
  - skrbjc 5y ago
    Funnily enough, I've seen many people riding bikes in the street with no helmet, but wearing a cloth mask.
    - brimble 5y ago
      I've found myself leaving them on on the walk back to the car a whole lot more now that it's Winter. Zero extra safety, but it keeps the face warm.
      - shard 5y ago
        I was already regularly wearing masks in the winter before the pandemic for the same reason, it kept my face nice and warm. Of course it was cloth masks, not N95. But I did wear N95 when the air quality was especially bad.
    - mosdave 5y ago
      https://stanfordreview.org/stanford-bicycles-helmets-masks/ https://stanfordreview.org/stanford-bicycles-helmets-masks/
  - Panther34543 5y ago
    > Meanwhile, the effects of perpetual masking are obvious- harmful to deaf people, harmful to the development of speech and socialization in children, asthmatics and more. There's a ton more. I now have tons of facial scars due to continuous breakouts over the past two years due to masks (and, yes, I've spent about $2k trying all sorts of silk and other supposedly "comfortable" masks). Another thing that hasn't been talked about is cartilage deformities in young children due to the pressure of masks on developing features. My sister is a plastic surgeon and she has talked about this quite a bit, but it hasn't gotten much media attention. The pressure caused by elastic loops around the ear is quite harmful to the correct development of the ear by permanently modifying the cartilage of the concha in growing children[0]. She also mentioned that there may be affects on the shape of the nose if a mask is worn tight enough. A "celestial" nose is a nose shape with an upturned tip, stereotypically considered a sign of attractiveness in many cultures and a common feature of celebrities. It's the most requested shape for those interested in rhinoplasties. Forcing young children to wear tight masks is quite literally deforming them. [0]: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7302120 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7302120
wonderwonder 5y ago
My kids school district did not require masks but highly recommended them. I figured I would send the kids to school with masks as I did not want to be disrespectful to their teachers who I assumed would be masked out of concern with being around so many children all day. None of their teachers wore masks, so that was the end of that. Essentially 15% of people including teachers and students wear masks. None of the adults (school staff) in their on campus after school program are masked either.
- jedberg 5y ago
  Do you know what the positivity rate is of your school population? Our school requires masks at all times on campus, inside or outside, vaccinated or not (we're in California). However, prior to omicron we had 0 cases (school has about 500 people at it teachers+staff+kids). With Omicron we've only had 37 cases.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - wonderwonder 5y ago
    Official numbers say we have 10 active cases and 35 total for the year in my kids elementary school which has ~750 people on campus. My kid is one of those positive cases so he is quarantined for 10 days. Keeping my youngest home as well just to be sure he does not infect anyone, just assuming he is positive as well but no symptoms. They go to the same school. Prior to omicron I think they only had 5 positive cases at the school, no masks during delta either. At this point just assumed that if no one else is masking, there is no point and the kids are not going to keep them on if the teachers don't make them or wear them themselves. Assuming wife and I have it currently as well as we are not isolating from our kid but no symptoms. Wife and I are just working from home to avoid infecting anyone at work.
nkrisc 5y ago
The point of masking and being cautious at this point is not to avoid ever catching COVID, because it seems certain now that everyone will catch it at some point. The point is to be the last person to catch it when hospitals are at normal capacity and everything else is back to normal, just in case you happen to have a very poor reaction to it. It also just sounds kind of miserable. I also avoid catching the flu as much as possible. And if I ever go back to commuting by train, I’ll probably wear masks on the train too. I used to get colds all the time just from riding a completely packed train with sick people coughing and sneezing all over.
- spookthesunset 5y ago
  In this post-vaccine world we now live in, is slowing the spread of Covid really the absolute most important thing we all need to focus on? Shouldn’t we move on at this point? What is the end goal here? Why are fully vaccinated adults continuing to freak out about Covid?
  - davidw 5y ago
    Once again: people are dying, right now, because they can't get access to health care, because hospitals in some places are overflowing with mostly unvaccinated people with COVID. This seems like a fairly location-specific issue, so I would expect that different places could do different things at different times. We can and are focusing on other things, but hospital capacity is a good one to work on keeping down. Once that's down, I guess we see where we are and probably lift some restrictions.
    - spookthesunset 5y ago
      Where are people dying because they cannot get access to healthcare?
      - davidw 5y ago
        https://healthandwelfare.idaho.gov/news/idaho-activates-crisis-standards-care-three-health-districts-southern-idaho https://healthandwelfare.idaho.gov/news/idaho-activates-cris... - comes to mind. Here where I live in Oregon, during the Delta surge, people were waiting on "elective" surgeries for things like cancer treatment, and the hospital system was pretty clear that some ended up dying because the hospital was overloaded.
restingrobot 5y ago
There is inconclusive evidence that children are vectors of transmission to teachers. At the very least it is the same as any public gathering. So your "options" would apply to every aspect of life, (Grocery store, restaurant, etc.)
- throwaway22032 5y ago
  Yes, hence my use of the term "generalizable".
  - restingrobot 5y ago
    >generalizable across most industries. I was trying to point out that it is not just industries, its literally life. This is anecdotal, but many of the teachers I personally know are anti-in person learning, but still willing to eat out a restaurant, which makes me question their true motives for remote learning.
    - throwaway22032 5y ago
      Ah, yes, I agree. My eyes tend to glaze over whenever I hear "because covid" now, it's devoid of meaning and simply means "I don't want to" most of the time.
wrycoder 5y ago
C) Take a COVID therapeutic and get well. If only the powers that be would take that approach.
zeku 5y ago
I still wear my mask to slow the transmission of covid so that less vulnerable people die, and so that our hospitals can stop being overrun. I also personally think of this as well: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/27/health/coronavirus-mask-protection.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/27/health/coronavirus-mask-p... Masking may reduce the severity of your covid infection, which would be pretty sweet. So it's not an all or nothing.

damontal 5y ago

We are all getting coronavirus

zemvpferreira 5y ago

I mix in society, wear masks everywhere, and have yet to contract coronavirus.

naasking 5y ago
> I mix in society, wear masks everywhere, and have yet to contract coronavirus. Or you did and were asymptomatic. Something on the order of 70% of cases are largely asymptomatic IIRC. Unless you're claiming you got a PCR test every 21 days since the beginning of the pandemic?
- zemvpferreira 5y ago
  I have not (only a few tests so far) but I'll do you one better. I have a few doctors friends who mix in society, wear masks everywhere, work in covid wards and have yet to contract coronavirus. They have to take an ungodly amount of PCRs. Point is, a lot of people have been infected so far, but not all people.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
JasonFruit 5y ago
c) get lucky
- mandmandam 5y ago
  Statistically speaking, isn't that just normal luck? Aren't 80% or so of infections mild to symptom free?
mdorazio 5y ago
You have yet to get coronavirus. There’s a pretty good chance that you will before the year is out. Omicron is extremely infectious even among the fully vaccinated. For example, among my friends group all of us are fully vaccinated and boosted, and so far 60% have gotten omicron despite wearing masks in public, washing hands frequently, etc. I expect further mutations in the future will probably happen and similarly reduce vaccine effectiveness in preventing infection.
- Jcampuzano2 5y ago
  Depending on what test people are getting, there may be a good portion of the population who have gotten Omicron but don't know it if they had very mild symptoms. Plenty of us have off days, or may feel a little sick but don't assume it is Covid because of expecting extreme reactions even when it absolutely could be due to its symptoms overlapping others and many people being affected very little or even being asymptomatic.
scatters 5y ago
How do you know that? Unless you've been taking PCR tests at least weekly, it's more likely that you've had at least one asymptomatic infection.
throwaway22032 5y ago
We're three months in to Omicron and only two years in, your situation right now is irrelevant. The only way you're getting away with this is either by having some innate immunity, or by simply not noticing you've had it. I wouldn't have realised if not for a friend saying "get a test", my only symptom was a purple line on a bit of paper. I actually felt better than normal because I went out drinking less.
DeWilde 5y ago
More likely, you've had contact with it but it did not cause any symptoms. I don't think it is possible to avoid Coronavirus at this point. Unless someone had barricaded themselves in for the past 2 years they are likely to have had contact with the virus at this point.
restingrobot 5y ago
You will get COVID at some point, and it won't be because you were careful, you forgot to wear a mask, or you encountered unvaccinated/unmasked people. It will be because this virus is endemic and at some point everyone will get it. The idea that somehow getting or not getting COVID is due to level of diligence is absurd on its face.
zdragnar 5y ago
I've been exposed to covid-positive people multiple times in my home (each time they found out they were positive after), no masking involved. I get tested after each exposure and have yet to get it either. Wearing masks and not catching covid is like wearing a bandana and not getting into a bike accident. It is an extremely contagious aerosolized virus that cloth masks simply aren't sufficient to stop. Meanwhile, the effects of perpetual masking are obvious- harmful to deaf people, harmful to the development of speech and socialization in children, asthmatics and more.
- skrbjc 5y ago
  Funnily enough, I've seen many people riding bikes in the street with no helmet, but wearing a cloth mask.
  - brimble 5y ago
    I've found myself leaving them on on the walk back to the car a whole lot more now that it's Winter. Zero extra safety, but it keeps the face warm.
    - shard 5y ago
      I was already regularly wearing masks in the winter before the pandemic for the same reason, it kept my face nice and warm. Of course it was cloth masks, not N95. But I did wear N95 when the air quality was especially bad.
  - mosdave 5y ago
    https://stanfordreview.org/stanford-bicycles-helmets-masks/ https://stanfordreview.org/stanford-bicycles-helmets-masks/
- Panther34543 5y ago
  > Meanwhile, the effects of perpetual masking are obvious- harmful to deaf people, harmful to the development of speech and socialization in children, asthmatics and more. There's a ton more. I now have tons of facial scars due to continuous breakouts over the past two years due to masks (and, yes, I've spent about $2k trying all sorts of silk and other supposedly "comfortable" masks). Another thing that hasn't been talked about is cartilage deformities in young children due to the pressure of masks on developing features. My sister is a plastic surgeon and she has talked about this quite a bit, but it hasn't gotten much media attention. The pressure caused by elastic loops around the ear is quite harmful to the correct development of the ear by permanently modifying the cartilage of the concha in growing children[0]. She also mentioned that there may be affects on the shape of the nose if a mask is worn tight enough. A "celestial" nose is a nose shape with an upturned tip, stereotypically considered a sign of attractiveness in many cultures and a common feature of celebrities. It's the most requested shape for those interested in rhinoplasties. Forcing young children to wear tight masks is quite literally deforming them. [0]: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7302120 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7302120

wonderwonder 5y ago

My kids school district did not require masks but highly recommended them. I figured I would send the kids to school with masks as I did not want to be disrespectful to their teachers who I assumed would be masked out of concern with being around so many children all day. None of their teachers wore masks, so that was the end of that. Essentially 15% of people including teachers and students wear masks. None of the adults (school staff) in their on campus after school program are masked either.

jedberg 5y ago
Do you know what the positivity rate is of your school population? Our school requires masks at all times on campus, inside or outside, vaccinated or not (we're in California). However, prior to omicron we had 0 cases (school has about 500 people at it teachers+staff+kids). With Omicron we've only had 37 cases.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- wonderwonder 5y ago
  Official numbers say we have 10 active cases and 35 total for the year in my kids elementary school which has ~750 people on campus. My kid is one of those positive cases so he is quarantined for 10 days. Keeping my youngest home as well just to be sure he does not infect anyone, just assuming he is positive as well but no symptoms. They go to the same school. Prior to omicron I think they only had 5 positive cases at the school, no masks during delta either. At this point just assumed that if no one else is masking, there is no point and the kids are not going to keep them on if the teachers don't make them or wear them themselves. Assuming wife and I have it currently as well as we are not isolating from our kid but no symptoms. Wife and I are just working from home to avoid infecting anyone at work.

nkrisc 5y ago

The point of masking and being cautious at this point is not to avoid ever catching COVID, because it seems certain now that everyone will catch it at some point. The point is to be the last person to catch it when hospitals are at normal capacity and everything else is back to normal, just in case you happen to have a very poor reaction to it. It also just sounds kind of miserable. I also avoid catching the flu as much as possible. And if I ever go back to commuting by train, I’ll probably wear masks on the train too. I used to get colds all the time just from riding a completely packed train with sick people coughing and sneezing all over.

spookthesunset 5y ago
In this post-vaccine world we now live in, is slowing the spread of Covid really the absolute most important thing we all need to focus on? Shouldn’t we move on at this point? What is the end goal here? Why are fully vaccinated adults continuing to freak out about Covid?
- davidw 5y ago
  Once again: people are dying, right now, because they can't get access to health care, because hospitals in some places are overflowing with mostly unvaccinated people with COVID. This seems like a fairly location-specific issue, so I would expect that different places could do different things at different times. We can and are focusing on other things, but hospital capacity is a good one to work on keeping down. Once that's down, I guess we see where we are and probably lift some restrictions.
  - spookthesunset 5y ago
    Where are people dying because they cannot get access to healthcare?
    - davidw 5y ago
      https://healthandwelfare.idaho.gov/news/idaho-activates-crisis-standards-care-three-health-districts-southern-idaho https://healthandwelfare.idaho.gov/news/idaho-activates-cris... - comes to mind. Here where I live in Oregon, during the Delta surge, people were waiting on "elective" surgeries for things like cancer treatment, and the hospital system was pretty clear that some ended up dying because the hospital was overloaded.

restingrobot 5y ago

There is inconclusive evidence that children are vectors of transmission to teachers. At the very least it is the same as any public gathering. So your "options" would apply to every aspect of life, (Grocery store, restaurant, etc.)

throwaway22032 5y ago
Yes, hence my use of the term "generalizable".
- restingrobot 5y ago
  >generalizable across most industries. I was trying to point out that it is not just industries, its literally life. This is anecdotal, but many of the teachers I personally know are anti-in person learning, but still willing to eat out a restaurant, which makes me question their true motives for remote learning.
  - throwaway22032 5y ago
    Ah, yes, I agree. My eyes tend to glaze over whenever I hear "because covid" now, it's devoid of meaning and simply means "I don't want to" most of the time.

wrycoder 5y ago

C) Take a COVID therapeutic and get well. If only the powers that be would take that approach.

zeku 5y ago

I still wear my mask to slow the transmission of covid so that less vulnerable people die, and so that our hospitals can stop being overrun. I also personally think of this as well: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/27/health/coronavirus-mask-protection.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/27/health/coronavirus-mask-p... Masking may reduce the severity of your covid infection, which would be pretty sweet. So it's not an all or nothing.