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The vaxxed and unvaxxed populations both rely on the same medical infrastructure. So when the unvaxxed fill hospitals to recover or die, they are consuming scar

The vaxxed and unvaxxed populations both rely on the same medical infrastructure. So when the unvaxxed fill hospitals to recover or die, they are consuming scarce resources that are required by the population at large for other things like birth, cancer, surgery, etc. Sadly, we don't have an ethical way to let all the unvaxxed get covid without impacting the medical system negatively for the rest of us.

akomtu 5y ago
The same reasoning can be applied to obesity.
- kritiko 5y ago
  I highly recommend reading this series if you think obesity is a personal failure: https://slimemoldtimemold.com/2021/07/07/a-chemical-hunger-part-i-mysteries/ https://slimemoldtimemold.com/2021/07/07/a-chemical-hunger-p... Obviously, yes, medical conditions do place burdens on health systems. That's why we tax cigarettes highly. However, in spite of considerable public health initiatives, the obesity rate continues to rise...
- GavinMcG 5y ago
  Not really. Various groups may disproportionately take up health resources, but the risk we're talking about is acutely overwhelming health systems.
  - rory 5y ago
    This is definitely the most pressing issue, but shouldn't we also, as a society, build the ability to e.g. double ICU capacity when needed? We're not talking about 100x here. As much as I support vaccination, it feels like gaps in vaccination are also used as an excuse to blow off repairing an extremely fragile public health system. We've had two years at this point.
    - nicoburns 5y ago
      Two years doesn't seem like very long to double ICU capacity. How are you going to staff them? Nursing degrees take 3 years. Medical degrees much longer. And capacity to train doctors and nurses is also stretched by the pandemic and non-trivial to expand. I do agree that this is something governments ought to be looking into over the long term though.
      - rglullis 5y ago
        If the short-term problem is specific to Covid, you just need to bring/train people for that. Training people to assist Covid cases, run PCR tests, should be a matter of weeks, not years. Germany did it, I have 4 (four!) test centers on within a block of distance, all of them are filled with students and otherwise-unemployed people who got some minimal training.
        nicoburns 5y ago
        I don't think test centres are the problem. I live and the UK and the only time tests were scarce was a few days around Christmas when there was very high demand.
      - rory 5y ago
        A standard nursing degree in Europe takes three years. That's not a scientific law, it's not like it takes 365 * 3 * 2/3 = 17520 hours to learn how to be useful in an ICU. An LPN can be done in a year. We trained mechanical engineers in as little time during WWII. If we're to treat this like an emergency, why aren't we treating it like an emergency?
        spookthesunset 5y ago
        > If we're to treat this like an emergency, why aren't we treating it like an emergency? Because in truth it probably never was. We assembled fully staffed field hospitals that went completely unused.
- wk_end 5y ago
  ...only if (and if only!) obesity were a problem that could be solved by a couple of quick, free shots at the local pharmacy.
  - rkk3 5y ago
    "free shots"... hah those shots cost Tens of billions of dollars if not more. It was a totally worthwhile investment to make (we probably should have invested more in it) - but lets not pretend like there is nothing we could do about obesity if threw 100 Billion at the problem.
  - bluedino 5y ago
    It'd be interesting to see what big pharma could come up with in a year.
- tehjoker 5y ago
  Obesity isn't contagious and doesn't have spiky behavior in hospitalizations. We also know a reliable cure even if its very difficult to put into practice (impossible for some).
  - heurisko 5y ago
    Obesity is one of the big contributors to Covid infections that require complex hospital care. The two are linked. That's why I think vaccination schemes that offered free food were undermining the "following the science" bit. As was the banning of the popular "Parkrun" in the UK, which is a collective outdoor exercise event, during the lockdown. So many policies have undermined the "follow the science" bit in my mind.
    - tehjoker 5y ago
      one run and one meal is not gonna make or break someones weight. one vaccine might save their life
      - heurisko 5y ago
        You edited your comment. > one run and one meal is not gonna make or break someones weight On the contrary, we have had two years of this pandemic. Government messaging could have been a lot stronger on the benefits of exercise. That's 2 years for people to become healthier. And "one vaccine" has turned into one vaccine plus boosters. Everyone is going to get Covid at some point. General fitness will remain one of the best long term ways of combating the virus. The Parkrun is a weekly occurrence, and is popular even for those who do not have an interest in exercise as a hobby, as it is informal. As such, it acts as an important gateway to a healthier lifestyle. I'm by no means alone in seeing banning it as counterproductive, and not "following the science". https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-59816344 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-59816344 If the government wants to serverely curtail individual liberties, then I expect good reasons for doing so. It's not good to encourage blind adherance to illogical policies.
- trinovantes 5y ago
  Junk food has consumption tax Also, assuming their obesity is a life style choice instead of type 1 diabetes, I suspect many obese people would be willing to take a easy vaccine if it exists considering how big the lose-weight-quick industry is
- rtikulit 5y ago
  Obesity isn't exogenous, infectious or subject to exponential growth. Even a superficial consideration of the facts shows that analogies between obesity and covid are unsound.
- squeaky-clean 5y ago
  Next time I have to postpone an elective surgery for 3 months because obesity cases have filled the ICU, then you can apply the same reasoning.
rglullis 5y ago
Cigarette use kills 480000 people every year in the US alone. 300 billion dollars estimated to be spent per year with treatment of smoking-related illness. I don't want even to look at the numbers of the more critical epidemic on the US: obesity and metabolic diseases. By arguing that "the unvaxxed" are a burden and that they deserve discrimination, you are opening the gates for those arguing that smokers should be forced to stop smoking, or that obese people need to be forced to stricter diets.
- mattigames 5y ago
  Smokers, obese people and metabolic diseases are not filling up hospitales at the unsustainable rate unvaxxed people are; and none of those can be quickly fixed with a pinch in the arm, not even nicotine addiction.
  - lliamander 5y ago
    And most of the people (vaxxed or not) who need critical care with COVID have those pre-existing conditions.
  - rglullis 5y ago
    Yeah, at this time of the year they are being filled by all types of seasonal respiratory diseases, like it happened for most years in recent times, even before Covid. The flu shot is widely available and recommended for most over-55 (I think?), but you don't hear anyone claiming that it should become mandatory.
    - mattigames 5y ago
      So let me get this straight, what you are asking is why not add one more huge problem to an already near-collapse system because there are already huge similar issues that caused it to be in that state?
      - rglullis 5y ago
        What I am saying is that we have for two years already heard that the restrictions and mandates were to avoid overloading a then-unprepared-and-taken-by-surprise health system, but the US still can't even have large-scale availability of rapid tests. I am also saying that if problem of the health system is lack of personnel, then firing healthcare workers who refuse the vaccine (even after being infected) is counter-productive and can only be seen as a bone-headed political move. But most of all what I am saying is that we should not accept the policy theater. Making this about vaxxed vs unvaxxed is just yet-another way for governments (worldwide) to hide their ineptitude. It's been two years already. Countries in Europe with comparable levels of vaccination to the US are already treating Covid as "just a endemic, seasonal respiratory disease". Yet the US still wants to pretend that things just don't get solved because of rednecks and "problematic people" that need to submit to the will of the elite.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
ipaddr 5y ago
The numbers are equal now with the new variant.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

akomtu 5y ago

The same reasoning can be applied to obesity.

kritiko 5y ago
I highly recommend reading this series if you think obesity is a personal failure: https://slimemoldtimemold.com/2021/07/07/a-chemical-hunger-part-i-mysteries/ https://slimemoldtimemold.com/2021/07/07/a-chemical-hunger-p... Obviously, yes, medical conditions do place burdens on health systems. That's why we tax cigarettes highly. However, in spite of considerable public health initiatives, the obesity rate continues to rise...
GavinMcG 5y ago
Not really. Various groups may disproportionately take up health resources, but the risk we're talking about is acutely overwhelming health systems.
- rory 5y ago
  This is definitely the most pressing issue, but shouldn't we also, as a society, build the ability to e.g. double ICU capacity when needed? We're not talking about 100x here. As much as I support vaccination, it feels like gaps in vaccination are also used as an excuse to blow off repairing an extremely fragile public health system. We've had two years at this point.
  - nicoburns 5y ago
    Two years doesn't seem like very long to double ICU capacity. How are you going to staff them? Nursing degrees take 3 years. Medical degrees much longer. And capacity to train doctors and nurses is also stretched by the pandemic and non-trivial to expand. I do agree that this is something governments ought to be looking into over the long term though.
    - rglullis 5y ago
      If the short-term problem is specific to Covid, you just need to bring/train people for that. Training people to assist Covid cases, run PCR tests, should be a matter of weeks, not years. Germany did it, I have 4 (four!) test centers on within a block of distance, all of them are filled with students and otherwise-unemployed people who got some minimal training.
      - nicoburns 5y ago
        I don't think test centres are the problem. I live and the UK and the only time tests were scarce was a few days around Christmas when there was very high demand.
    - rory 5y ago
      A standard nursing degree in Europe takes three years. That's not a scientific law, it's not like it takes 365 * 3 * 2/3 = 17520 hours to learn how to be useful in an ICU. An LPN can be done in a year. We trained mechanical engineers in as little time during WWII. If we're to treat this like an emergency, why aren't we treating it like an emergency?
      - spookthesunset 5y ago
        > If we're to treat this like an emergency, why aren't we treating it like an emergency? Because in truth it probably never was. We assembled fully staffed field hospitals that went completely unused.
wk_end 5y ago
...only if (and if only!) obesity were a problem that could be solved by a couple of quick, free shots at the local pharmacy.
- rkk3 5y ago
  "free shots"... hah those shots cost Tens of billions of dollars if not more. It was a totally worthwhile investment to make (we probably should have invested more in it) - but lets not pretend like there is nothing we could do about obesity if threw 100 Billion at the problem.
- bluedino 5y ago
  It'd be interesting to see what big pharma could come up with in a year.
tehjoker 5y ago
Obesity isn't contagious and doesn't have spiky behavior in hospitalizations. We also know a reliable cure even if its very difficult to put into practice (impossible for some).
- heurisko 5y ago
  Obesity is one of the big contributors to Covid infections that require complex hospital care. The two are linked. That's why I think vaccination schemes that offered free food were undermining the "following the science" bit. As was the banning of the popular "Parkrun" in the UK, which is a collective outdoor exercise event, during the lockdown. So many policies have undermined the "follow the science" bit in my mind.
  - tehjoker 5y ago
    one run and one meal is not gonna make or break someones weight. one vaccine might save their life
    - heurisko 5y ago
      You edited your comment. > one run and one meal is not gonna make or break someones weight On the contrary, we have had two years of this pandemic. Government messaging could have been a lot stronger on the benefits of exercise. That's 2 years for people to become healthier. And "one vaccine" has turned into one vaccine plus boosters. Everyone is going to get Covid at some point. General fitness will remain one of the best long term ways of combating the virus. The Parkrun is a weekly occurrence, and is popular even for those who do not have an interest in exercise as a hobby, as it is informal. As such, it acts as an important gateway to a healthier lifestyle. I'm by no means alone in seeing banning it as counterproductive, and not "following the science". https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-59816344 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-59816344 If the government wants to serverely curtail individual liberties, then I expect good reasons for doing so. It's not good to encourage blind adherance to illogical policies.
trinovantes 5y ago
Junk food has consumption tax Also, assuming their obesity is a life style choice instead of type 1 diabetes, I suspect many obese people would be willing to take a easy vaccine if it exists considering how big the lose-weight-quick industry is
rtikulit 5y ago
Obesity isn't exogenous, infectious or subject to exponential growth. Even a superficial consideration of the facts shows that analogies between obesity and covid are unsound.
squeaky-clean 5y ago
Next time I have to postpone an elective surgery for 3 months because obesity cases have filled the ICU, then you can apply the same reasoning.

rglullis 5y ago

Cigarette use kills 480000 people every year in the US alone. 300 billion dollars estimated to be spent per year with treatment of smoking-related illness. I don't want even to look at the numbers of the more critical epidemic on the US: obesity and metabolic diseases. By arguing that "the unvaxxed" are a burden and that they deserve discrimination, you are opening the gates for those arguing that smokers should be forced to stop smoking, or that obese people need to be forced to stricter diets.

mattigames 5y ago
Smokers, obese people and metabolic diseases are not filling up hospitales at the unsustainable rate unvaxxed people are; and none of those can be quickly fixed with a pinch in the arm, not even nicotine addiction.
- lliamander 5y ago
  And most of the people (vaxxed or not) who need critical care with COVID have those pre-existing conditions.
- rglullis 5y ago
  Yeah, at this time of the year they are being filled by all types of seasonal respiratory diseases, like it happened for most years in recent times, even before Covid. The flu shot is widely available and recommended for most over-55 (I think?), but you don't hear anyone claiming that it should become mandatory.
  - mattigames 5y ago
    So let me get this straight, what you are asking is why not add one more huge problem to an already near-collapse system because there are already huge similar issues that caused it to be in that state?
    - rglullis 5y ago
      What I am saying is that we have for two years already heard that the restrictions and mandates were to avoid overloading a then-unprepared-and-taken-by-surprise health system, but the US still can't even have large-scale availability of rapid tests. I am also saying that if problem of the health system is lack of personnel, then firing healthcare workers who refuse the vaccine (even after being infected) is counter-productive and can only be seen as a bone-headed political move. But most of all what I am saying is that we should not accept the policy theater. Making this about vaxxed vs unvaxxed is just yet-another way for governments (worldwide) to hide their ineptitude. It's been two years already. Countries in Europe with comparable levels of vaccination to the US are already treating Covid as "just a endemic, seasonal respiratory disease". Yet the US still wants to pretend that things just don't get solved because of rednecks and "problematic people" that need to submit to the will of the elite.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

ipaddr 5y ago

The numbers are equal now with the new variant.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]