23 ms·
The window to deploy surveillance-resistant systems is running out
- CodeGlitch 5y agoI mean.. Using Twitter doesn't help. Perhaps start there Mr Snowdon?
- edave64 5y agoHe what's that communication to reach people. You do public communicate where the public is.
- CodeGlitch 5y agoHe's famous enough to have his own web page running on his own server. Have an RSS feed so journalists and the like can get updates. This is basic stuff that anyone with an interest in technology can achieve with minimal funds.
- spicybright 5y ago"This is not a drill" makes me think there's an immediate threat that needs full attention, especially from snowden's account. Is this just more twitter slang to add emphasis?
- bitxbitxbitcoin 5y agoDefinitely Twitter slang to add emphasis. "This is not a drill" implies that people have been preparing a response and now is the time to execute it properly.
- spiderice 5y ago> there's an immediate threat that needs full attention I think that's exactly what Snowden is trying to say
- toyg 5y agoYou have to additionally consider that Snowden resides in a country under a "managed democracy" (to be charitable), and widely believed to be currently undergoing preparations for war. He probably expects his communication freedoms to be curtailed very, very shortly. To him it's definitely not a drill.
- Clubber 5y ago>Reminder to Silicon Valley: there’s an even chance that many governments in the world will be run by authoritarian movements in the future. Your window to deploy surveillance-resistant systems is running out. Tech companies don't have a great human rights history when there is money to be made. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_and_the_Holocaust https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_and_the_Holocaust
- tazjin 5y agoI think it's imperative that governments all over the world take steps to reduce dependence on American infrastructure. Russia is working on this, but it's a slow process - especially on the hardware side of things. If the US goes (more) rogue at some point, Europe will be left holding the bag. The sphere around Russia and China will make it, but what does Europe have?
- dbsmith83 5y agoThis is ironic considering Russia and China are already quite authoritarian societies. China is especially heavy handed on the surveillance side of things.
- sh4un 5y ago
- core-utility 5y ago> People in China are ok with surveillance because most of them tend not to do things like riot for every reason, or murder people for fun. Are you sure that it's a lack of entitlement causing this, and not - maybe - threat of "disappearance" or death for speaking out? The Tiananmen Square massacre was not that long ago, and many understand the repercussions of dissent in no uncertain terms.
- zepto 5y ago> Russia and China don't have the issues like in the US where every single individual believes they are entitled to some special rights and privileges because of entitlement. Not being entitled to rights as an individual is generally the complaint against the political systems of China and Russia.
- JaimeThompson 5y ago> every single individual believes they are entitled to some special rights and privileges because of entitlement That is a strange way to describe the US Constitution.
- sh4un 5y agoThe problem are the people who are blindly following along and calling the other 50% white supremacists for not following along. I think people are starting to give little credit to the tinfoil hat people because maybe out of all of us, their brand of crazy has merit.
- Stevvo 5y agoWe are talking about a global issue; political/cultural divisions that are for the most part confined to the US are not "the problem". Even within the US mass-surveillance predates the current political climate.
- weljlkjlkerg 5y agoVax passports most definitely are not confined to the US.
- Stevvo 5y agoIn Europe, and many other countries they are not a privacy issue; it's technically impossible to use them for surveillance as the QR codes do not contain any identifiable information.
- core-utility 5y agoThere's a saying going around that the difference between a conspiracy theory and truth is 6-9 months. In other words, look at what the conspiracy theories are today for an idea of what could be understood as truth in the future. Caveat: obviously this is not 100%.
- throwaway22032 5y agoThe term "conspiracy theory" is a slur intended to blur two distinct concepts into one. On the one hand, it means "insane school of thought". i.e. the Earth is flat. Something which is either totally off the wall, or at least unfalsifiable. On the other hand, it means "non-mainstream school of thought" i.e. phones are being used to track people. It might be true, might not (well, now we know it is), but it's totally plausible. Once you realise that you basically come to the conclusion that people who waffle on about "conspiracy theories" aren't using sound reasoning, because they're not interested in being understood.
- hdjjhhvvhga 5y agoI'm sorry, but appealing to companies makes no sense. For one, it is against their financial interests, and second, if it can be introduced, it can be reversed. He should appeal to the media instead: they should make people aware not how much control they are giving away now, but how dangerous it can become in the future. But it seems to me very few people would listen or care.
- pessimizer 5y ago> But it seems to me very few people would listen or care. Everybody cares, they just understand that they're powerless to change anything. The companies in question and the media share ownership.
- mrguyorama 5y agoNope, not everybody cares. My father is staunchly in the "I have nothing to hide" camp, more specifically, he thinks "what does it matter if <company> knows I do <thing>?" Meanwhile many of my other relatives are afraid of being tracked, but they attribute that tracking to spy chips bill gates put in the covid vaccine. Meanwhile, as my father above pointed out, they carry their phones with them everywhere, and use facebook prominently.
- core-utility 5y agoI'd be curious on the media using this from a fear angle. In everything you have to ask yourself "where's the incentive". For decades, the Media (big-M) have relied on fear for viewership, because it sells. Sounds like they could pretty easily sell government surveillance as fear if they chose to. There's a lot of information to be had in why they're not currently doing this, be it their own fear of US government, China, etc.
- lukifer 5y agoOne could interpret this call to action being targeted as much at individual workers in SV, and its general culture (as in, quit your high-paying VC-backed job, and work on something FOSS/federated). In either case, I agree appealing to corporations makes no sense; in those rare cases where their bottom lines aren't aligned with future authoritarian states, it's because they want to become quasi-authoritarian fiefs themselves.
- hatware 5y agoBut how will we create our utopia?
- sh4un 5y agoMake people who go to work have to share their income with those who don't want to work.
- ArtDev 5y agoMake corporations actually pay their taxes like the rest of us.
- weljlkjlkerg 5y agoYou can start by banning vax passports. .... as a start.
- pessimizer 5y agoTyphoid Mary still doesn't get to work in a kitchen in my utopia.
- brightstep 5y agoTech companies only stand to gain from partnering with an invasive government. The idea that they'd side with us over the state that regulates them and provides a market to seek profit is a fantasy
- viktorcode 5y agoUntil their clients learn about it. And then they stand to lose.
- mindslight 5y agoTheir clients are paying them to do exactly what they do. Do you perhaps mean their "data subjects" will change their behavior? That hasn't happened so far - advertising is a hell of a drug. How many people can even resist the upgrade treadmill for the overwhelmingly anti-user devices in their pockets?
- jrs235 5y agoUntil their primary/main client is/are governments.
- ativzzz 5y agoTech companies' clients are advertisers and businesses, whose interests align with those of the tech companies. We get the end product for free, and we are not the clients.
- teekert 5y agoI'm sorry, what is the context of this tweet? I don't read the news a lot, I apologize. Why the urgency?
- Jimmc414 5y agoEdward Snowden @Snowden This is not a drill. Matthew Green @matthew_d_green Reminder to Silicon Valley: there’s an even chance that many governments in the world will be run by authoritarian movements in the future. Your window to deploy surveillance-resistant systems is running out.
- teekert 5y agoOk, that's just a copy paste, but the message is: Encrypt all the things (no backdoors) so your civilians can't be spied on and their vital communications can't be disrupted. Right? That's the message (again)? I mean I agree, and I use services accordingly (Signal, NextCloud, Home Assistant) but, is there a special reason why he is saying it now, with some urgency? Did something happen?
- DoctorOW 5y agoIn terms of "Did something happen?" there's a fair number of examples of governments both failing and succeeding at strong arming tech companies for intelligence/defense/etc. However, the big event you seem worried about is a predicted near future event hasn't happened yet. Like a tech equivalent of climate change, all the little things over the years add up to one big urgent thing.
- zx85wes 5y agoDramatic escalation of the conflict between NATO and Russia is a matter of weeks. You can be sure governments in the west will use that 'good crisis' to crack down on civil liberties.
- lukifer 5y agoI don't think this is in response to anything specific. It's more an acknowledgement of an ongoing "boiling frog" problem. I recently heard Eliezer Yudkowsky make this comparison in the (somewhat) related domain of AI safety: let's say you gained reliable intel that aliens were invading in exactly 30 years. Do you begin acting immediately, or do you wait? Anything you could do now, you could probably do next year. But the problem is, there's no obvious point at which to act; on any given day, you keep kicking the ball down the road. The same logic applies even if the length of time is unknown (X years). There is a high probability of future crises regarding both AI safety, and authoritarian states leveraging surveillance and social algorithms. In both cases, if we wait for a clear instigating event, it may be too late.
- RcouF1uZ4gsC 5y agoI honestly don't think deploying surveillance resistant systems now will help against an authoritarian government. Imagine if WhatsApp, Messenger, and Apple Messages were all fully end-to-end encrypted. An authoritarian government comes in and demands that Facebook/Meta and Apple release a new version that is either not end-to-end encrypted or somehow allows the government to be able to see the messages. Do you really think they will resist? Do you see Tim Cook or Mark Zuckerberg willing to have all their wealth confiscated and spend the rest of their life in prison on the charges of assisting terrorism (remember, we are talking about an authoritarian government. Remember also what happened to the Russian oligarchs to defied Putin, and the Jack Ma in China)? So Facebook and Apple release the new version, and disallow using the old version (users get a popup saying they need to upgrade their app). Do you really think any significant portion of users will not "upgrade" their apps to the less secure version and lose out on all their existing chat history and networks? The people that would be aware of this and resist this, are likely using apps like Signal, Matrix, etc (apps that prize security over engagement and that have not come from the Silicon Valley tech giants).
- sh4un 5y agoMany people who care already have moved away from social media anthem likes. It always makes me laugh to see people talk about privacy security from their MacBooks with their apple, Facebook, Google, reddit, Instagram and YouTube accounts. Meanwhile they really happy to handout your info when LE asks.
- foxfluff 5y ago> An authoritarian government comes in and demands that Facebook/Meta and Apple release a new version That is why a surveillance resistant system should 1) have open protocol 2) have free & open & fully auditable implementations 3) be sufficiently simple that disjoint groups (and individuals) can maintain and audit compatible implementations. It's easy to make demands when the system is centralized; I don't think such a system can resist surveillance (or censorship or much else).
- choeger 5y agoWe are long beyond that point, sadly. We are right now in the process of a) becoming legally required to own and carry a particular kind of device and b) being legally unable to fully control said device and c) having that device explicitly working (again by legal requirement) against our own interests It will be interesting to watch how things will progress and whether governments or corporations will be the ones holding control over the devices. It will also be interesting to see how the mandatory usage and mandatory anti-user-services will be implemented in detail. I guess that mandatory usage will be a race between mobile payment and government services like eID and eLicense. Anti-user-services will take some time to be fully developed, but I guess the first thing will be content scanning in messenger apps, closely followed by a list of illegal words or names.
- core-utility 5y agoThe TV show Upload [1] has a group of people dubbed the "Ludds" (i.e. Luddites) that refuse to be party to the turn that the technological revolution has taken and stick to traditional ways of doing things. I strongly believe if that were to happen in our world today, much of Silicon Valley would be "Ludds", while a mass of non-tech people would happily welcome our new technological overlords. [1]: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt7826376/ https://www.imdb.com/title/tt7826376/
- phkahler 5y ago>> I strongly believe if that were to happen in our world today, much of Silicon Valley would be "Ludds", while a mass of non-tech people would happily welcome our new technological overlords. Which would be very interesting because it's the Ludds who are building that tech. But hey, it pays well...
- core-utility 5y agoIndeed a plot twist.
- paulcole 5y ago> much of Silicon Valley would be "Ludds" Bullshit. Much of Silicon Valley likes to think they would be Ludds but they do so while hailing an Uber from their iPhone and hoping that their DoorDash is devlivered on time so they can eat while they watch a HBO Max show and they hope that nobody stole their Amazon Prime package.
- carapace 5y agoTechnological progress and economic incentives seem (to me) to make ubiquitous surveillance unavoidable. Given that, it seems that the best solution would be to force our rulers to be subject to ubiquitous surveillance.
- bigyellow 5y agoMr. Snowden is trying very hard to stay relevant. I guess posting family pictures didn't have the desired effect, so he's going for doomporn now.
- KKKKkkkk1 5y agoSnowden is twitting from Moscow. Russians in a similar position have been formally labeled "foreign agents", imprisoned, or worse. I'm wondering how Snowden managed to avoid a similar fate.
- AyyWS 5y agoThe enemy of my enemy is my friend
- all2 5y agoKeep your friends close and your enemies closer.
- juanani 5y ago
- godshatter 5y agoThe US government wanted Snowden bad, going as far as to forcing the Bolivian President's jet to land because they thought Snowden might have been on it. A few European countries wouldn't let the plane traverse their airspace, presumably because of pressure being put on them by the US. Russia giving Snowden refugee status was a big middle finger to the West and the US in particular. It's just a bonus that every time he tweets he makes the US look bad.
- wbl 5y agoI don't wonder that hard about it. It's clear that he is dependent on staying in Putin's good graces to remain a free man.
- toss1 5y agoBecause he is their agent. Remember Russia has been the undisputed world champion of dezinformatsiya for centuries - they did a good job of making him appear as the "disgruntled principled whistleblower" they wanted. But most of the stuff he stole had little to do with the NSA activities they publicized, and much to do with key intelligence damage to the USA, including likely loss of lives. That's not protest, it's treason; do not expect him ever to leave RUS soil. I had vaguely thought of him as a good guy too at first, until I looked into it a little deeper.
- weljlkjlkerg 5y agoIt's painfully obvious OP is talking about a smart phone and a vax passport. You don't have to be "anti-vax" (which is a stupid stupid term) to be anti-vax-passport. The people pushing for vax passports have no clue what they are unleashing. It is absolutely fascist, evil and incredibly surprising to me that 99% of the people on this website are in 100% favor of it. EVIL.
- warning26 5y agoWhat? Literally everywhere that requires a vax card accepts paper versions too
- weljlkjlkerg 5y ago[flagged]
- warning26 5y agoDo you feel this strongly about driver’s licenses?
- drcongo 5y agoWait till they hear about actual passports!
- NeuNeurosis 5y agoWell there is an interesting history to passports. This article does a decent job of outlining how they morphed from a tool to help fight the Spanish Flu to what we see today. https://apposition.substack.com/p/papers-please https://apposition.substack.com/p/papers-please Also there is quite a bit of economic work that showcases the positive impact of removing such stringent barriers to the free movement of people.
- drcongo 5y ago
- mempko 5y agoIt's almost like Snowden forgot the US has the largest prison population ALREADY. The time ran out in the late 90s when all the Surveillance technology was being built by Silicon Valley.
- karaterobot 5y agoIn one HN thread, people complain about the U.S. not forcing people to get vaccinated, and in another thread it's about how the U.S. is becoming an authoritarian state. I take no position on these arguments, I just get spun around trying to track whether the U.S. is being overrun by libertarians or authoritarians sometimes.
- coding123 5y agoI SAW THAT TOO! LOL
- all2 5y agoYes. This country has a 10/90 split between the authoritarians (who mostly live in large cities and are themselves in semi-authoritarian conditions - New York, Los Angeles, Chicago, Seattle, etc. [0]) and the rest of the people (the Silent Majority) who live in suburbia and the Middle of NoWhere. Unfortunately the Silent Majority just wants to be left alone. They are getting more vocal (Tea Party during the Obama years, most pro-Trumpers, others) but they are slow to act and lack any sense of retaliation when they are shut down [1]. They think if they keep their heads down the totalitarian system developing at a national level will leave them alone. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_cities_by_population https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_cities_b..., about 35 million Americans live in cities larger than 1 million total pop [1] https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/irs-scandal-fast-facts/ar-BB19jlV0 https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/irs-scandal-fast-fac... > In May 2013, the Treasury Inspector General for Tax Administration released a report indicating the targeting involved delaying the processing of applications by certain conservative groups and requesting information from them that was later deemed unnecessary. [edit] remove unrelated statement [\edit]
- stavros 5y agoIt's almost as if there are more than two people here.
- mdoms 5y ago> I just get spun around trying to track whether the U.S. is being overrun by libertarians or authoritarians sometimes. You get spun around when different people make different arguments?
- tasha0663 5y agoCeci n'est pas une perceuse
- 2OEH8eoCRo0 5y ago
- whoomp12342 5y ago"The thing… Oh! My theory about advancing technologies as both our savior and our doom?" - olaf
- digisign 5y agoIt's kinda scary how fast all this happened. Try taking your kid to an amusement park without surrendering your personal history and current whereabouts. They don't even care to support other avenues because they already know almost no one is going to turn around after arriving, after seeing kids' puppy-dog eyes. Recent pandemic was the perfect excuse to hit fast-forward on eliminating cash (although not a major transmission factor) and privacy along with it. Never let a crisis go to waste, as they say.
- dang 5y agoWe've changed the url from https://twitter.com/Snowden/status/1486049822847250433 https://twitter.com/Snowden/status/1486049822847250433 to the original source it points to. Some of the comments were posted before the change, and will make more sense if you've looked at both. All: while I have you, please post thoughtful, substantive comments. Avoid snark, attack, flamebait, and ideological talking points. The latter lead to the repetitive, nasty sort of internet brawl we're trying to avoid here. We ban accounts that do that, so please don't do that. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- benpiper 5y agoWhat makes him think tech companies want "surveillance-resistant systems" (whatever that means)?
- throwawaygh 5y agoSurveillance-resistant systems are not an answer to authoritarianism. Private companies do not have freedom of operation in authoritarian regimes. It's a special sort of odd neoliberal fantasy where capitalists or technologists can route around an authoritarian social movement that seizes the power of the state. Do you want to know what happens to people who think they can route around an authoritarian regime with clever computer code? There's a relevant XKCD about a $5 wrench [1], except instead of a $5 wrnech it's the entire apparatus of a developed nation-state. If you really think authoritarianism is coming to your country, stop fucking around with prime numbers and get serious about the work of political persuasion. [1] https://xkcd.com/538/ https://xkcd.com/538/
- zwkrt 5y agoWhen authoritarianism comes around, it wont just be surveiling. An a11n regime needs the buy-in of private leadership because the goal is to turn the state into an all-encompasing master of peoples lives, and work is a large part of peoples lives (especially in an a11n regime!) Whether or not the state can surveil is a moot point if the owners of the tech are in on the game.
- throwawaygh 5y ago> a11n I'm not sure what this means, assuming weird auto-correct from authoritarian? > An a11n regime needs the buy-in of private leadership because... Only if that leadership is necessary to seize or hold power. An authoritarian regime in the US would not need buy-in from major tech companies.
- Tyr42 5y agoThey don't want to type the letters in the middle, so they dropped them and put a count of how many letters were dropped. I'm mostly familiar with a11y meaning accessibility.
- 0xcde4c3db 5y ago
- max_ 5y agoSilicon Valley power bearers neither care about privacy nor democracy, as well illustrated to their actions, as opposed to their lies (like Apple's Privacy scam or cooperation with authoritarian regimes). We should seriously start looking for heroes elsewhere.
- Kim_Bruning 5y agoIf you don't collect the data in the first place, a government can't come along and appropriate the treasure trove you just created. Sure governments can make laws, but most of the laws are far behind what companies are already collecting voluntarily it would seem.
- omgmajk 5y agoSome replies to that tweet are super strange. I have no idea what is going on there.
- naveen99 5y agoThe most eligible client of a surveillance resistant system is a challenger to the throne, not a pleb. Since the most powerful can optionally exercise their power through persuasion of a multitude of plebs, there is a natural 50/50 split of power between the masses and the elite.