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Or you know you could just ask people for their id like they ask people for the vaccination status in SF. You have to have a id to drive a car. You have to hav

Or you know you could just ask people for their id like they ask people for the vaccination status in SF. You have to have a id to drive a car. You have to have an id to buy alcohol. Is it such a crime to ask for id when you vote?

josephcsible 5y ago
I 100% agree we should ask for ID at polling places. But does that really do any good if everyone's allowed to vote by mail for no reason?
- hansthehorse 5y ago
  ID is ok as long as it's stupid easy to obtain if you don't have what is the default national id drivers license. The faction that tries to suppress voting want voter ID so they can then restrict what ID is needed to get government issued ID without holding a drivers license. Voter ID isn't the issue, how to get the ID is. There is a solution though. Issue a national health card at birth with a requirement to have it reissued with a picture after age 18. So Medicare for all solves two issues. Health care and voter ID.
  - mbrumlow 5y ago
    Here is a site that I think was meant to show how bad it is, but could be condensed down if they wanted to actually help people. https://www.vote.org/voter-id-laws/ https://www.vote.org/voter-id-laws/ The info here seems to contradicts your statements, so if you don’t agree, don’t yell at me, talk to the site.
    - josephcsible 5y ago
      Requiring a copy of photo ID to be mailed is a joke. The entire point of photo ID is that you're supposed to make sure the picture on the ID matches the person who handed it to you.
- anonymouse008 5y ago
  I still get a gear ground when I remember what little information it takes to request a ballot and how much information was leaked in Equifax.
DarylZero 5y ago
If you require ID to vote then you have a situation where the GOP has an incentive to make it more expensive and more hassle to get ID. Fuck that.
- QuarterReptile 5y ago
  Hmm, a GOP conspiracy to make the DMV work poorly...
  - seanmcdirmid 5y ago
    The GOP was opposed to the motor voter law in the 90s because they didn’t want to have to nerf the DMVs?
kingkawn 5y ago
There shouldn’t be a state controlled process between the population and voting
- watersb 5y ago
  In the true sense that the people are the state, a democracy would hold that the people can push through changes to the system that might not be in the interest of those who currently hold power under the very system the people are trying to change. And yet... how does a population convince itself that elections are conducted fairly? Any change proposed in good faith is distorted by anyone who needs things to stay the way they are. Fear, uncertainty, doubt.
- eesmith 5y ago
  No age limits, anyone (including non-citizens) can vote, and there's no registration system? And people can vote as many times as they want, in as many districts as the like? All of these are current state controlled processes which restrict the population from voting.
readthenotes1 5y ago
It's a crime to vote in many countries without an id.
- eesmith 5y ago
  How is that relevant? Is the argument that if country X does Y then Y isn't bad for the US? Belgium requires people carry id with them all the time. Does that mean the US should be like Belgium and require everyone carry id? Sweden requires either an id or someone with an id who can vouch for you, which is less strict than some of the US states. Most of those countries have a national id system. Why wouldn't that be a prerequisite for the US?
  - eindiran 5y ago
    It's relevant because considering what other people/places consider normal allows you to recontextualize and examine the frame you are in. The idea that IDs should be required for voting is only a hyper-politicized issue focused on race in the US, and noticing that lets you break your thinking outside that frame to some extent. Ultimately I am against anything requiring IDs, but so long as I need to show my ID and vaccine card to get seated at a restaurant in SF, it doesn't seem outlandish to me at all that elections should require IDs. Regarding national IDs, I'm not sure what you think this would look like but frankly that is the whole point of the REAL ID initiative which began in the wake of the Patriot Act reauthorization in 2005. Perhaps you have objections in light of the changes brought on by the REAL ID Modernization Act wherein the SSN requirements were significantly defanged, but IMO the point still remains.
    - eesmith 5y ago
      The thing is, I'm aware about how voting is done outside of the US, at least to some extent. That doesn't explain how readthenotes1's comment is relevant. The amount of fraud in mail-in-voting is astoundingly low. Mandatory voter id doesn't seem to provide any benefits except for calming an artificial fear that was hyped just to pass mandatory id laws. I don't know why you say "focus on race" when the history shows that voter id requirements are there to elect Republicans, of which race is one correlated factor. Why can a gun license be used as valid id, but a state college id cannot? College students tend to vote for Democrats. Gun owners tend to vote Republican. Why do DMV offices (where you get ids) tend to close down in poor areas when there are cutbacks? Poor people tend to vote for Democrats. Now, if we really do look to other countries, we can ask why the DMV is in charge of issuing id. In at least some of those other countries, it is the police which are in charge of ids. So if we follow readthenotes1's suggestion see what other countries do, my point is that perhaps doing that correctly requires certain prerequisites that don't exist in the US. > so long as I need to show my ID and vaccine card to get seated at a restaurant in SF I didn't realize that getting seated at a restaurant was a constitutional right.
fshbbdssbbgdd 5y ago
When I voted by mail in California, the government sent me updates when my ballot was received and counted. If somebody was going around stealing identities to vote fraudulently, wouldn’t they be running the risk that every person they voted for could discover that a vote was cast in their name, triggering an investigation? Voter fraud is a serious crime, and unlike other similar crimes (like a fake credit application), the perpetrator doesn’t stand to make $$$$ for each act. They need to commit the crime at scale to change the result. If this form of fraud were happening en masse, surely there’d be tons of evidence of it? If campaign workers were going around trying to bribe people to vote, some of the people they are trying to bribe might unexpectedly be supporters of the other candidate, and would have a strong incentive to collect evidence of the bribery attempt and report it. It would make for some very interesting hidden camera videos and would be explosive news in the modern political environment.
- Bancakes 5y ago
  They can use deceased people probably. I've heard of such cases in eastern europe for fraud.
  - fshbbdssbbgdd 5y ago
    There’s documentation when people die. Someone in could check and see that those people voted (in a somewhat automated way), then trigger an investigation where authorities look up what address were those ballots mailed to. Again, seems very risky (at least in the US where elections are litigated and governments are scrutinizing individual votes in close elections to find cases like this). I’m not saying it never happens, but rather that it’s easy enough to discover that people who do it have a decent change of getting caught. That constraints how widespread the issue can be.
    - Bancakes 5y ago
      So assuming the scheme only works when everyone is in on it, would you be the one who reports it and gets punished and vilified? And who would you report it to? I'm not from thw US, and it brings a hopeful smile that conspiraces seem solvable over there.
krapp 5y ago
>Is it such a crime to ask for id when you vote? It's not a crime, but the US government has proven that it can't be trusted not to be virulently racist when the opportunity to disenfranchise minority voters presents itself, particularly at the state level. ID requirements for voting are the equivalent of tempting a drunk with a shot of whiskey.

josephcsible 5y ago

I 100% agree we should ask for ID at polling places. But does that really do any good if everyone's allowed to vote by mail for no reason?

hansthehorse 5y ago
ID is ok as long as it's stupid easy to obtain if you don't have what is the default national id drivers license. The faction that tries to suppress voting want voter ID so they can then restrict what ID is needed to get government issued ID without holding a drivers license. Voter ID isn't the issue, how to get the ID is. There is a solution though. Issue a national health card at birth with a requirement to have it reissued with a picture after age 18. So Medicare for all solves two issues. Health care and voter ID.
- mbrumlow 5y ago
  Here is a site that I think was meant to show how bad it is, but could be condensed down if they wanted to actually help people. https://www.vote.org/voter-id-laws/ https://www.vote.org/voter-id-laws/ The info here seems to contradicts your statements, so if you don’t agree, don’t yell at me, talk to the site.
  - josephcsible 5y ago
    Requiring a copy of photo ID to be mailed is a joke. The entire point of photo ID is that you're supposed to make sure the picture on the ID matches the person who handed it to you.
anonymouse008 5y ago
I still get a gear ground when I remember what little information it takes to request a ballot and how much information was leaked in Equifax.

DarylZero 5y ago

If you require ID to vote then you have a situation where the GOP has an incentive to make it more expensive and more hassle to get ID. Fuck that.

QuarterReptile 5y ago
Hmm, a GOP conspiracy to make the DMV work poorly...
- seanmcdirmid 5y ago
  The GOP was opposed to the motor voter law in the 90s because they didn’t want to have to nerf the DMVs?

kingkawn 5y ago

There shouldn’t be a state controlled process between the population and voting

watersb 5y ago
In the true sense that the people are the state, a democracy would hold that the people can push through changes to the system that might not be in the interest of those who currently hold power under the very system the people are trying to change. And yet... how does a population convince itself that elections are conducted fairly? Any change proposed in good faith is distorted by anyone who needs things to stay the way they are. Fear, uncertainty, doubt.
eesmith 5y ago
No age limits, anyone (including non-citizens) can vote, and there's no registration system? And people can vote as many times as they want, in as many districts as the like? All of these are current state controlled processes which restrict the population from voting.

readthenotes1 5y ago

It's a crime to vote in many countries without an id.

eesmith 5y ago
How is that relevant? Is the argument that if country X does Y then Y isn't bad for the US? Belgium requires people carry id with them all the time. Does that mean the US should be like Belgium and require everyone carry id? Sweden requires either an id or someone with an id who can vouch for you, which is less strict than some of the US states. Most of those countries have a national id system. Why wouldn't that be a prerequisite for the US?
- eindiran 5y ago
  It's relevant because considering what other people/places consider normal allows you to recontextualize and examine the frame you are in. The idea that IDs should be required for voting is only a hyper-politicized issue focused on race in the US, and noticing that lets you break your thinking outside that frame to some extent. Ultimately I am against anything requiring IDs, but so long as I need to show my ID and vaccine card to get seated at a restaurant in SF, it doesn't seem outlandish to me at all that elections should require IDs. Regarding national IDs, I'm not sure what you think this would look like but frankly that is the whole point of the REAL ID initiative which began in the wake of the Patriot Act reauthorization in 2005. Perhaps you have objections in light of the changes brought on by the REAL ID Modernization Act wherein the SSN requirements were significantly defanged, but IMO the point still remains.
  - eesmith 5y ago
    The thing is, I'm aware about how voting is done outside of the US, at least to some extent. That doesn't explain how readthenotes1's comment is relevant. The amount of fraud in mail-in-voting is astoundingly low. Mandatory voter id doesn't seem to provide any benefits except for calming an artificial fear that was hyped just to pass mandatory id laws. I don't know why you say "focus on race" when the history shows that voter id requirements are there to elect Republicans, of which race is one correlated factor. Why can a gun license be used as valid id, but a state college id cannot? College students tend to vote for Democrats. Gun owners tend to vote Republican. Why do DMV offices (where you get ids) tend to close down in poor areas when there are cutbacks? Poor people tend to vote for Democrats. Now, if we really do look to other countries, we can ask why the DMV is in charge of issuing id. In at least some of those other countries, it is the police which are in charge of ids. So if we follow readthenotes1's suggestion see what other countries do, my point is that perhaps doing that correctly requires certain prerequisites that don't exist in the US. > so long as I need to show my ID and vaccine card to get seated at a restaurant in SF I didn't realize that getting seated at a restaurant was a constitutional right.

fshbbdssbbgdd 5y ago

When I voted by mail in California, the government sent me updates when my ballot was received and counted. If somebody was going around stealing identities to vote fraudulently, wouldn’t they be running the risk that every person they voted for could discover that a vote was cast in their name, triggering an investigation? Voter fraud is a serious crime, and unlike other similar crimes (like a fake credit application), the perpetrator doesn’t stand to make $$$$ for each act. They need to commit the crime at scale to change the result. If this form of fraud were happening en masse, surely there’d be tons of evidence of it? If campaign workers were going around trying to bribe people to vote, some of the people they are trying to bribe might unexpectedly be supporters of the other candidate, and would have a strong incentive to collect evidence of the bribery attempt and report it. It would make for some very interesting hidden camera videos and would be explosive news in the modern political environment.

Bancakes 5y ago
They can use deceased people probably. I've heard of such cases in eastern europe for fraud.
- fshbbdssbbgdd 5y ago
  There’s documentation when people die. Someone in could check and see that those people voted (in a somewhat automated way), then trigger an investigation where authorities look up what address were those ballots mailed to. Again, seems very risky (at least in the US where elections are litigated and governments are scrutinizing individual votes in close elections to find cases like this). I’m not saying it never happens, but rather that it’s easy enough to discover that people who do it have a decent change of getting caught. That constraints how widespread the issue can be.
  - Bancakes 5y ago
    So assuming the scheme only works when everyone is in on it, would you be the one who reports it and gets punished and vilified? And who would you report it to? I'm not from thw US, and it brings a hopeful smile that conspiraces seem solvable over there.

krapp 5y ago

>Is it such a crime to ask for id when you vote? It's not a crime, but the US government has proven that it can't be trusted not to be virulently racist when the opportunity to disenfranchise minority voters presents itself, particularly at the state level. ID requirements for voting are the equivalent of tempting a drunk with a shot of whiskey.