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Damn, we've lost our mind in CA Banned visiting beaches during the early phases - you had to crowd into indoor spaces. What - actually - is the current death

Damn, we've lost our mind in CA Banned visiting beaches during the early phases - you had to crowd into indoor spaces. What - actually - is the current death rate among children from this thing? I wish these stories would come with actual data. Any questioning of the traditional line - gets slammed down. Quick note - if they say sky is falling (ie, kids > 5 dying at high rates - mandatory vaccination or no school on an unapproved vaccine for this age group) but won't actually share the data despite the incredible high number of cases (ie, should be able to do some analysis by now) they are probably hiding something. "Still, among Omicron cases reported to TESSy, 1.14% were hospitalised, 0.16% required ICU admission/respiratory support, and 0.06% died" - https://www.ecdc.europa.eu/en/news-events/weekly-epidemiological-update-omicron-variant-concern-voc-week-2-data-20-january-2022 https://www.ecdc.europa.eu/en/news-events/weekly-epidemiolog... Can anyone find an age based version of this?

jjulius 5y ago
>Banned visiting beaches during the early phases - you had to crowd into indoor spaces. You mean the beaches that were closed during the same time they had banned large indoor gatherings?
- s1artibartfast 5y ago
  Yes, and hiking trails
- errthrht 5y ago
  - jjulius 5y ago
    Breathe, it's going to be OK.
    - errthrht 5y ago
ch4s3 5y ago
> What - actually - is the current death rate among children from this thing? 835 total [1] [1] https://data.cdc.gov/NCHS/Provisional-COVID-19-Deaths-Focus-on-Ages-0-18-Yea/nr4s-juj3 https://data.cdc.gov/NCHS/Provisional-COVID-19-Deaths-Focus-...
- colechristensen 5y ago
  Out of about 75 million.
  - 3825 5y ago
    > In 2019, 608 child passengers age 12 and younger died in motor vehicle crashes, and more than 91,000 were injured. > Child restraint systems are often used incorrectly. An estimated 46% of car seats and booster seats are misused in a way that could reduce their effectiveness. https://www.cdc.gov/transportationsafety/child_passenger_safety/cps-factsheet.html https://www.cdc.gov/transportationsafety/child_passenger_saf... Do you also oppose mandating car seats and seat belts?
    - useragent86 5y ago
      That kind of argument is disingenuous flamebait and ought to be flagged. By the same logic, are car seats and seat belts injected into the body?
    - colechristensen 5y ago
      No, and indeed we already do. It also illustrates a point: some people are really quite paranoid about their kids and covid but happily take other higher risks like driving around their kids in cars, which even with safety devices pose a higher risk, citing the data you just posted. I would oppose checkpoints which denied people travel privileges unless their seatbelts were checked to be used properly.
  - ch4s3 5y ago
    Yes, that’s what I was pointing towards.
colechristensen 5y ago
In Minnesota, the first covid death for the 10-14 age group happened a few weeks ago. The death rate for school age children is very low. I think before anyone goes and decides if this vaccine deserved a mandate, they should decide conditions for which a vaccine should be considered for a mandate based on measured risks. What we’re having now is emotionally and politically motivated.
- jorts 5y ago
  It’s to protect teachers, staff, peoples families, and to slow the spread. It’s not political.
  - BrandonM 5y ago
    > It’s to protect teachers, staff, peoples families... The article says otherwise: > “We need to make sure schools are safe so that all parents are comfortable sending their children to school,” said Pan, a pediatrician whose legislation has strengthened oversight of vaccine exemptions in previous years. “And we want to keep schools open.”
  - useragent86 5y ago
    > to slow the spread Wow, I haven't heard that slogan since 2020. Do you still believe it? Because even the CDC and Pfizer execs and European newspapers are admitting that the vaccines don't prevent infection or transmission. > It’s not political. It's hard to fathom that you believe that, because even people in favor of vaccine mandates can recognize political influences, like the many billions of dollars being made by the corporations producing the vaccines and the money they donate to political campaigns.
    - jorts 5y ago
      > Do you still believe it? Yes, I still believe it. Sure, they don't prevent infection or transmission. The vaccines cause you to have less symptoms. By being less symptomatic you're less likely to spread the disease. > It's hard to fathom that you believe that Yes, I believe getting everyone vaccinated is not political. It's a public safety issue. Yes, I can understand that politicians can be influenced. Regardless of whether that's the case here I still would have no issue with pushing for everyone to get vaccinated. The billions being made by the corporations producing the vaccine are a pittance in comparison to all the negative consequences of letting it spread uncontrolled.
rrauenza 5y ago
Remember this also protects the teachers. In some places teachers were refusing to go back. (But I've also heard the transmission rate from children to teachers has been pretty low, but how low?) There's already a long list of required vaccinations for school... is this one any different? https://natomasunified.org/immunization-requirements-for-2021-2022-school-year Was the banning of beaches back when we all were hand sanitizing and wiping down our amazon packages and groceries when no one really understood the transmission mechanism? Now we know it is mostly airborne and rare to catch outside with enough distance.
- BrandonM 5y ago
  > There's already a long list of required vaccinations for school... is this one any different? To me, the answer is a clear Yes. Every vaccine on that list, to my knowledge, results in a much more complete immunity profile than the COVID-19 vaccine. The diseases on that list also impact children in rather devastating ways. COVID-19 vaccines seem to be more similar to the seasonal flu/cold vaccines than to any of the vaccines on that list. Respiratory diseases circulate around schools every year, and we haven't mandated vaccines for those. Do we have scientific models showing clear benefits for mandated COVID-19 vaccines for school-age children?
  - pianoben 5y ago
    Seasonal colds don't result in potentially months of "long-cold" symptoms, nor do they significantly increase the risk of diabetes, nor do they regularly hospitalize and kill people on a large scale.
    - BrandonM 5y ago
      I am operating from an assumption that COVID-19 is bad and kills people. Unlike the other mandated vaccines, though, vaccinated individuals still catch and spread COVID at high rates. But the reactions to me very much sound like, "We must do something, and this is something." I'm only asking for models here. Is the CA legislation based on scientific models showing that mandating COVID-19 vaccinations for all school-aged children will meaningfully impact health outcomes at the society level? Or is it motivated by a desire to overcome COVID by all means necessary, even ineffective ones?
cure 5y ago
> Banned visiting beaches during the early phases - you had to crowd into indoor spaces. As sibling comment says, large indoor gatherings were also not allowed. This was back when we knew next to nothing about COVID. We didn't know yet what was safe or not. We didn't know if it was transmitted via the air or via touch. We didn't know what was safe, and what was not. Hindsight is 20:20...
- crackercrews 5y ago
  > large indoor gatherings were also not allowed. Indoor gatherings were banned. But going to the mall wearing a bandana was allowed. And it was much more likely to transmit COVID than sitting outside at the beach.
  - encryptluks2 5y ago
    Apparently wasn't banned for the governor though. Never forget these rules are put into place by some of the biggest hypocrites.
- timr 5y ago
  > This was back when we knew next to nothing about COVID. We didn't know yet what was safe or not. We didn't know if it was transmitted via the air or via touch. We didn't know what was safe, and what was not. No, that's post-hoc rationalization. SARS-CoV2 is a coronavirus. After all was said and done...it behaves pretty much like other coronaviruses. We know a lot about coronaviruses, and did back then, as well: they're seasonal; they transmit via the air; they don't transmit readily outside; they're sensitive to heat and light; they don't live long on surfaces; they induce long-lasting B- and T-cell immunity after infection. Moreover, certain things we knew about SARS-CoV2 from very early on, but completely ignored. The original data out of China, for example, showed that the virus posed miniscule threat to children: https://twitter.com/BallouxFrancois/status/1485302410784432130?cxt=HHwWhICzrYqr7ZwpAAAA https://twitter.com/BallouxFrancois/status/14853024107844321...
  - clairity 5y ago
    yes, we knew in march 2020 what the outlines of this virus were going to be. the only uncertainty was how much it varied at the margins (like absolute transmissibility, reproduction rate, in vitro resilience, etc.), but we realized quickly that it didn't push those boundaries in any surprising ways. it was simply a novel coronavirus, which meant that deficient immune systems were going to be unprepared to fight it. we knew this already, and still proceeded to become hysterical over this one virus, rather than focusing on protecting the immune deficient specifically.
TacticalCoder 5y ago
> ... but won't actually share the data despite the incredible high number of cases (ie, should be able to do some analysis by now) they are probably hiding something. I don't know about that but the paper we had to sign to decide if we wanted to give our kid the vaccine or not was a "beautiful" example of a dark pattern: "Do you want your kid to get the vaccine? YES / NO. Pick one. Example reason for saying "NO": your kid has some rare medical condition (see with your doctor)" This was carefully crafted and nasty. Vaccine for kids ain't mandatory yet (at least not in the country where my kid goes to school). I'm 100% sure several parents got tricked into thinking you needed a valid medical reason to answer "NO". In addition to that, it was made in a hurry: kid came back with the paper in their backpack and you had 48 hours to answer, leaving many parents without any time to think / talk about it. FWIW I know several doctor friends who are fully vaccinated, who fought in ICUs during the previous waves, including one who got three shots already (he showed me his "covid pass", which contains a counter with the number of shots), and who totally refuse to give their kids the vaccine. I really don't see the point if you have an healthy kid, knowing that vaccinated people do still catch and transmit the virus. The interests of whom are served by vaccinating an healthy kid?
- encryptluks2 5y ago
  But Pfizer data shows that only 3 topups a year and they'll go from having %0.00009 chance of health issues to %0.000089.
prostoalex 5y ago
> Banned visiting beaches during the early phases - you had to crowd into indoor spaces. I don't know how it was implemented elsewhere, but in San Diego county it was forbidden to stay (or sit, or lay) on the beach, while walking and jogging was allowed. Lifeguards were tasked with harassing an occasional sunbather to get moving.
- encryptluks2 5y ago
  Sounds like the Nazi references in regards to restrictions might not be too far off.
BobbyJo 5y ago
I lost faith in the state of California when camping got banned. Meanwhile, every major trail and park near where I lived in San Jose was lined with tents like a heroin bazaar.

jjulius 5y ago

>Banned visiting beaches during the early phases - you had to crowd into indoor spaces. You mean the beaches that were closed during the same time they had banned large indoor gatherings?

s1artibartfast 5y ago
Yes, and hiking trails
errthrht 5y ago
- jjulius 5y ago
  Breathe, it's going to be OK.
  - errthrht 5y ago

ch4s3 5y ago

> What - actually - is the current death rate among children from this thing? 835 total [1] [1] https://data.cdc.gov/NCHS/Provisional-COVID-19-Deaths-Focus-on-Ages-0-18-Yea/nr4s-juj3 https://data.cdc.gov/NCHS/Provisional-COVID-19-Deaths-Focus-...

colechristensen 5y ago
Out of about 75 million.
- 3825 5y ago
  > In 2019, 608 child passengers age 12 and younger died in motor vehicle crashes, and more than 91,000 were injured. > Child restraint systems are often used incorrectly. An estimated 46% of car seats and booster seats are misused in a way that could reduce their effectiveness. https://www.cdc.gov/transportationsafety/child_passenger_safety/cps-factsheet.html https://www.cdc.gov/transportationsafety/child_passenger_saf... Do you also oppose mandating car seats and seat belts?
  - useragent86 5y ago
    That kind of argument is disingenuous flamebait and ought to be flagged. By the same logic, are car seats and seat belts injected into the body?
  - colechristensen 5y ago
    No, and indeed we already do. It also illustrates a point: some people are really quite paranoid about their kids and covid but happily take other higher risks like driving around their kids in cars, which even with safety devices pose a higher risk, citing the data you just posted. I would oppose checkpoints which denied people travel privileges unless their seatbelts were checked to be used properly.
- ch4s3 5y ago
  Yes, that’s what I was pointing towards.

colechristensen 5y ago

In Minnesota, the first covid death for the 10-14 age group happened a few weeks ago. The death rate for school age children is very low. I think before anyone goes and decides if this vaccine deserved a mandate, they should decide conditions for which a vaccine should be considered for a mandate based on measured risks. What we’re having now is emotionally and politically motivated.

jorts 5y ago
It’s to protect teachers, staff, peoples families, and to slow the spread. It’s not political.
- BrandonM 5y ago
  > It’s to protect teachers, staff, peoples families... The article says otherwise: > “We need to make sure schools are safe so that all parents are comfortable sending their children to school,” said Pan, a pediatrician whose legislation has strengthened oversight of vaccine exemptions in previous years. “And we want to keep schools open.”
- useragent86 5y ago
  > to slow the spread Wow, I haven't heard that slogan since 2020. Do you still believe it? Because even the CDC and Pfizer execs and European newspapers are admitting that the vaccines don't prevent infection or transmission. > It’s not political. It's hard to fathom that you believe that, because even people in favor of vaccine mandates can recognize political influences, like the many billions of dollars being made by the corporations producing the vaccines and the money they donate to political campaigns.
  - jorts 5y ago
    > Do you still believe it? Yes, I still believe it. Sure, they don't prevent infection or transmission. The vaccines cause you to have less symptoms. By being less symptomatic you're less likely to spread the disease. > It's hard to fathom that you believe that Yes, I believe getting everyone vaccinated is not political. It's a public safety issue. Yes, I can understand that politicians can be influenced. Regardless of whether that's the case here I still would have no issue with pushing for everyone to get vaccinated. The billions being made by the corporations producing the vaccine are a pittance in comparison to all the negative consequences of letting it spread uncontrolled.

rrauenza 5y ago

Remember this also protects the teachers. In some places teachers were refusing to go back. (But I've also heard the transmission rate from children to teachers has been pretty low, but how low?) There's already a long list of required vaccinations for school... is this one any different? https://natomasunified.org/immunization-requirements-for-2021-2022-school-year Was the banning of beaches back when we all were hand sanitizing and wiping down our amazon packages and groceries when no one really understood the transmission mechanism? Now we know it is mostly airborne and rare to catch outside with enough distance.

BrandonM 5y ago
> There's already a long list of required vaccinations for school... is this one any different? To me, the answer is a clear Yes. Every vaccine on that list, to my knowledge, results in a much more complete immunity profile than the COVID-19 vaccine. The diseases on that list also impact children in rather devastating ways. COVID-19 vaccines seem to be more similar to the seasonal flu/cold vaccines than to any of the vaccines on that list. Respiratory diseases circulate around schools every year, and we haven't mandated vaccines for those. Do we have scientific models showing clear benefits for mandated COVID-19 vaccines for school-age children?
- pianoben 5y ago
  Seasonal colds don't result in potentially months of "long-cold" symptoms, nor do they significantly increase the risk of diabetes, nor do they regularly hospitalize and kill people on a large scale.
  - BrandonM 5y ago
    I am operating from an assumption that COVID-19 is bad and kills people. Unlike the other mandated vaccines, though, vaccinated individuals still catch and spread COVID at high rates. But the reactions to me very much sound like, "We must do something, and this is something." I'm only asking for models here. Is the CA legislation based on scientific models showing that mandating COVID-19 vaccinations for all school-aged children will meaningfully impact health outcomes at the society level? Or is it motivated by a desire to overcome COVID by all means necessary, even ineffective ones?

cure 5y ago

> Banned visiting beaches during the early phases - you had to crowd into indoor spaces. As sibling comment says, large indoor gatherings were also not allowed. This was back when we knew next to nothing about COVID. We didn't know yet what was safe or not. We didn't know if it was transmitted via the air or via touch. We didn't know what was safe, and what was not. Hindsight is 20:20...

crackercrews 5y ago
> large indoor gatherings were also not allowed. Indoor gatherings were banned. But going to the mall wearing a bandana was allowed. And it was much more likely to transmit COVID than sitting outside at the beach.
- encryptluks2 5y ago
  Apparently wasn't banned for the governor though. Never forget these rules are put into place by some of the biggest hypocrites.
timr 5y ago
> This was back when we knew next to nothing about COVID. We didn't know yet what was safe or not. We didn't know if it was transmitted via the air or via touch. We didn't know what was safe, and what was not. No, that's post-hoc rationalization. SARS-CoV2 is a coronavirus. After all was said and done...it behaves pretty much like other coronaviruses. We know a lot about coronaviruses, and did back then, as well: they're seasonal; they transmit via the air; they don't transmit readily outside; they're sensitive to heat and light; they don't live long on surfaces; they induce long-lasting B- and T-cell immunity after infection. Moreover, certain things we knew about SARS-CoV2 from very early on, but completely ignored. The original data out of China, for example, showed that the virus posed miniscule threat to children: https://twitter.com/BallouxFrancois/status/1485302410784432130?cxt=HHwWhICzrYqr7ZwpAAAA https://twitter.com/BallouxFrancois/status/14853024107844321...
- clairity 5y ago
  yes, we knew in march 2020 what the outlines of this virus were going to be. the only uncertainty was how much it varied at the margins (like absolute transmissibility, reproduction rate, in vitro resilience, etc.), but we realized quickly that it didn't push those boundaries in any surprising ways. it was simply a novel coronavirus, which meant that deficient immune systems were going to be unprepared to fight it. we knew this already, and still proceeded to become hysterical over this one virus, rather than focusing on protecting the immune deficient specifically.

TacticalCoder 5y ago

> ... but won't actually share the data despite the incredible high number of cases (ie, should be able to do some analysis by now) they are probably hiding something. I don't know about that but the paper we had to sign to decide if we wanted to give our kid the vaccine or not was a "beautiful" example of a dark pattern: "Do you want your kid to get the vaccine? YES / NO. Pick one. Example reason for saying "NO": your kid has some rare medical condition (see with your doctor)" This was carefully crafted and nasty. Vaccine for kids ain't mandatory yet (at least not in the country where my kid goes to school). I'm 100% sure several parents got tricked into thinking you needed a valid medical reason to answer "NO". In addition to that, it was made in a hurry: kid came back with the paper in their backpack and you had 48 hours to answer, leaving many parents without any time to think / talk about it. FWIW I know several doctor friends who are fully vaccinated, who fought in ICUs during the previous waves, including one who got three shots already (he showed me his "covid pass", which contains a counter with the number of shots), and who totally refuse to give their kids the vaccine. I really don't see the point if you have an healthy kid, knowing that vaccinated people do still catch and transmit the virus. The interests of whom are served by vaccinating an healthy kid?

encryptluks2 5y ago
But Pfizer data shows that only 3 topups a year and they'll go from having %0.00009 chance of health issues to %0.000089.

prostoalex 5y ago

> Banned visiting beaches during the early phases - you had to crowd into indoor spaces. I don't know how it was implemented elsewhere, but in San Diego county it was forbidden to stay (or sit, or lay) on the beach, while walking and jogging was allowed. Lifeguards were tasked with harassing an occasional sunbather to get moving.

encryptluks2 5y ago
Sounds like the Nazi references in regards to restrictions might not be too far off.

BobbyJo 5y ago

I lost faith in the state of California when camping got banned. Meanwhile, every major trail and park near where I lived in San Jose was lined with tents like a heroin bazaar.