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Is compensation stagnation to blame for the great resignation?
- theknocker 5y ago[dead]
- move-on-by 5y agoMy reason was a new middle-manager who destroyed the team dynamics. I quit the manager, not the job. More followed behind me. More pay was just a nice side effect.
- llimos 5y agoI would say it's not the compensation stagnation in and of itself, but the lack of respect that it signifies.
- enigmatic02 5y agoFor anyone interested in non-exec roles at startups, there's hundreds of salary and equity data points here: https://topstartups.io/startup-salary-equity-database/ https://topstartups.io/startup-salary-equity-database/
- mgh2 5y agoSome data: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29937305 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29937305
- 8note 5y agoYes? But also, boomers are old now
- Spivak 5y agoYeah, this is less of an issue in tech where it’s not super common for people to be waiting on lifers to retire but a lot of my peers in your typical corporatey jobs have suddenly been tempted by a surge of openings for more senior positions that they have been, on paper, qualified for the last like 3-5 years ish.
- faangiq 5y agoYep. Rapacious boomers gone wild. So much for the hippy revolution.
- ggm 5y agoI think FOMO and the rumours of how easily FAANG paygrade is achieved has an effect. I stayed in the not for profit sector knowing it was lower down the payscale. Enough years, it doesn't matter. It helps that it pays well above normal non-dentist non-doctor non-lawyer non-podiatrist salary, even if it's below FAANG rate. I achieved my financial goals. They just don't run to a Tesla or a holiday home. So, I'm hardly poor or underpaid. To the contrary: I'm in the top 3% But if I was 20 or 30 years younger I could understand "I'm sorry I'm worth more" I haven't been paid more than a CPI raise in a decade but I did get sweet bonuses which probably made up for it. The FIRE movement may have a lot to do with it too. Not all FIRE believers want to be insta and vanlife. Some just want to drop out in a more mainstream manner.
- nathanaldensr 5y ago
- mrintellectual 5y agoCompensation stagnation may be a component, but it's likely only one of many factors. From what I can see, culture shift seems to be the primary driver of the Great Resignation.
- DisjointedHunt 5y agoWe certainly need more people who focus on "the work". It is tragic to see young minds be thrown into a culture where they think it is "normal" to abuse anyone based on race, white or black. The fact that this happens routinely in the valley is a pathetic narrative on how the justice system has turned cowardly instead of upholding the law. That said, as someone who has seen the effects of this virus . . which i do not believe everyone who refuses the shot appreciates, please, please consider getting vaccinated.
- theonething 5y ago> My wife and I will be starting our own business... Good on you! I dream of starting a home business with my wife. If you don't mind sharing, what kind of business?
- malandrew 5y agoNot judging you personally as genuine or not but it is in the OPs best interest not to share these details lest you or someone else on this thread that is a social justice warrior make a point to try and sabotage his solo adventure in the startup phase. The woke know no bounds when it comes to demolishing individuals.
- libraryatnight 5y agoThere's nothing woke about vaccines.
- null0pointer 5y ago
- DisjointedHunt 5y agoThis is a tale as old as time: The Incumbents in the early 90s were challenged by newer culture, they sneered. Smart people went to work for the newer culture and industries and refused to conform to wearing suits and playing corporate house. Many of the tech firms that are bleeding out have become everything they fought against. The MBA-isation of big tech is so jarring when you land in the valley coming in from Florida, Colorado or many a foreign country where the rules of engagement and speech are still "normal" ie, casual, ie, ideas win respect not rank, ie there are perspectives outside of what the headlines in techmeme alone speak to. If you work at a large tech firm today, you will see this play out every 6 months in the promotion discussions that have essentially dissolved into political horse trading and are the single most important events to anyone not directly involved in very very senior roles (Where you speak to investors or are involved in company-level change) This is so strange to live through as a mid/mid-senior level VP, Manager, Lead what have you. Here you are, apparently at the pinnacle of your achievement, having beaten thousands of intelligent people in competitive exams and studied at the most prestigious institutions only to . . . spend a significant portion of your promotion cycle trying to play the Game of Thrones with a bunch of MBAs ? Compensation is not a significant differentiator anymore as it has been in the past, infact, one may argue, for the top 10-15% of the company that handles the most crucial products, quitting and starting up would easily get them overnight valuations orders of magnitude returns over their expected 20 year earnings were they to continue climbing the corp ladder (Nuvia, anyone?) So, in short, the environment externally has changed. The environment internally has absorbed a lot of the lifers and MBAs from "Successful" incumbents to the point where the internal culture reflects everything that was wrong with those guys that these firms "Disrupted" and there's plenty of money to go around.
- Simon_O_Rourke 5y agoThis is as old as the dinosaurs, wherever there's money, or potential for high salaries, the talentless but highly vocal sociopaths will progressively rise to the top. It's not about MBA's or generational issues, it's all about your abilities to talk the talk, nothing more.
- DisjointedHunt 5y ago
- jchonphoenix 5y agoTom is being disingenuous here. And he's well aware where the sleight of hand lies. The VPE today is getting more equity but the startup is overvalued and won't exit to the public market at the save growth rate. 10 years ago, you'd get less equity but the valuation is also lower so your multiplier is significantly higher. Case and point, Peter Thiel's investment into FB at 5m valuation at today's market is likely a multi hundred million dollar valuation. Which VPE do you think is getting the better deal?
- effingwewt 5y agosmall nitpick it's 'case in point'.
- diordiderot 5y agoI've heard the phrase too poor to work thrown around a lot. The idea is that, in a lot of places, unskilled wages don't pay enough for a single bedroom and commute so you have to work two jobs. If you're going to love in poverty either way, why keep the job
- gremlinsinc 5y agoIf I were homeless, and getting a job wouldn't get me a home...yeah i probably might do odd jobs here and there for food/etc but that's it. Bare minimum.
- black_13 5y ago
- windex 5y agoA lot of employers took emplyees for granted during the pandemic using that as an excuse to cut salaries while still taking home immense salaries themselves. That's where it started. To add even more fuel to the fire in the tech enabled industries, the companies themselves reported great earnings.
- laurent92 5y agoThey also didn’t produce as good work as before the pandemic. The boredom of being home kills the creativity (Yes, I know, “not me”), the reduced communication killed collaboration effects (everyone became more siloed), and a lot of people got depressed. There is a reason why people pay more for butts-in-seats.
- joefife 5y agoI've found the complete opposite effect. Allowing people to work undisturbed has, for my team at least, allowed faster delivery of goals.
- kristopolous 5y agoNo they cut wages because the pandemic provided the excuse that permitted them to do so. They'd be terrible capitalists if they are paying people more then they had to. The wage difference is a function of power asymmetry, it's not the employer trying to do some kind of syndicalist wealth redistribution Many companies profits went up, yet they still slashed compensation. Well some of that profit was because they slashed.
- ramphastidae 5y agoIt’s no surprise that companies with broken cultures that value “butt in seats” struggled to adapt during the shift to remote work during pandemic. But that’s a problem with the companies, not remote work.
- ShamelessC 5y agoPeople quit because their bosses are like you - utterly tone-deaf and focused solely on output.
- jimbob45 5y agoThe one condition that allowed lower-class individuals to quit their jobs just ended (rent moratorium). Seems like this is a manufactured movement.
- throw8932894 5y agoIf we anchor inflation in some stable asset, like gold, data are very different. Gold is remarkably stable indicator, per hour salary of shoemakers in 15th and 20th century in gold are very similar.
- EdwardDiego 5y agoI recently moved on from a place where I'd built core systems I was very proud of, where I'd started my dev career 12 years previous. Why? Because when I'd ended up with full custody of my children two years prior to the pandemic, I needed to reduce my hours in the office, but I'd make them up at home. After a decade of doing unpaid overtime (prod problems, talking to product owners in a different timezone), I figured they knew I was good for it. But, no, it was a huge problem apparently. But then the pandemic happened, and working from home all the time was absolutely okay. I grew resentful that full time remote was quickly okay, but I'd been hauled over coals for wanting to leave an hour earlier to pick my youngest up from daycare before it closed. So, I moved on. And absolutely no regrets.
- endemic 5y agoYeah, any feelings of loyalty to a company are absolutely one-sided. They do not care about you at all; don’t think that “going above and beyond” will be rewarded.
- golergka 5y ago12 years at one place, and so ungrateful one. You must have increased your compensation twice!
- AniseAbyss 5y agoWork-life balance is much more important than money. This isn't the 1950s anymore people want to be involved in their kid's upbringing and have a social life.
- mkl95 5y agoI got a promotion recently... without a raise. I have seen some coworkers burn out after going through the same thing. In this industry it's really difficult to stay at some company for more than two years, because most of them have their special way of screwing over their employees.
- pg_1234 5y agoIf a promotion comes without a raise the only thing it is good for is negotiating better terms at your next job.
- mkl95 5y agoThis is the exact reason I haven't told them to fuck off yet. It's the first time I have that title, and it could help me get a better job in a few months.
- bennysomething 5y agoMy current company does this. In everything else they are really great employers, best I've come across but I've only just found this out and I'm up for promotion. I'm actually furious. I dont understand what kind of stupid thinking made them conclude it's ok to promote with no salary increase. Hey expect more of me for the same money!
- verve_rat 5y agoNo you didn't. No raise is not a promotion. What you got was screwed with your pants on. Tell them thanks, but no thanks. Fuck you, pay me.
- mkl95 5y agoI know, right. I called that shit out to HR and management. I sell my time for money, and I'm working more hours than ever, and those hours are more stressful than they used to be.
- nyellin 5y agoNo. I'm CEO of an early stage startup (robusta.dev) and we've been extremely successful in bringing talented engineers. It's the accomplishment I'm most proud of, more then our product or anything else. We pay competitive salaries and offer generous option grants, but it's not the reason why people join. I know this, because we typically work out the compensation once people have already decided to join (contingent on a fair offer, of course) Developers (at least the ones we're trying to hire) want end to end responsibility, to do meaningful work, to not be micromanaged, and to have their voice and opinion heard and taken into account. They don't want to be another cog in the machine turning out code according to preprocessed requirements. Our developers write their own user stories, go on calls with customers so they have the full picture, and can take on any responsibility in the company that isn't currently being handled well. We also let you work from home and manage your own hours. You're an adult, we don't want to decide for you how you work best. I'm open to hearing contrary opinions, but this has worked very well for us
- black_13 5y ago
- omegalulw 5y agoHow close are you to IPO?
- nyellin 5y agoWe're pretty far away. Why?
- omegalulw 5y agoA big reason for joining startups, even with a lower offer, is the IPO upside. I was wondering if that was relevant to your case.
- nyellin 5y agoThere's a trade-off. The closer you get to an IPO the less options you get (in terms of equity percentages). On the other hand, there is far more certainty that those options are worth something. At an early stage startup you can get very substantial equity, but in exchange for higher risk.
- rini17 5y agoWhy they compare executive compensation? There's shortage of executives?
- etempleton 5y agoMore and more responsibility with no increase in pay. I have seen people take on all the responsibility of a position without getting a promotion with the excuse, “they aren’t ready yet.” Well, then they shouldn’t be doing the job full time then. It certainly seems like you are just making excuses not to pay someone.
- oxymoran 5y agoI didn’t resign because of the pay. I resigned because they never replaced other people that quit, fired, or promoted, so those remaining continued to get more work with no increase in pay. Not that I would have stayed if they even doubled my salary, it was simply an absurd, impossible amount of work and stress and nobody there gave a damn about the toll that it was taking on us. So I found a new job and told my old job to kick rocks. My new job is actually more pay and less work, go figure.
- pg_1234 5y agoActually that is "because of the pay". The real equation is how much of your life do you trade (contracted hours, overtime, life-shortening stress, compromising your hopes and dreams) for financial compensation. If the money stays the same, but the job got worse, the pay got worse.
- xondono 5y agoI would be very curious to see a breakdown of average age per rank. I think a lot of us have been looking up the ranks for years seeing very little mobility, and all of the sudden there has been a shift up. I’ve been effectively managing r&d and production (I work in electronics) operations for small companies for about 4 years now, of course without the actual “title”. The amount of offers I’ve been getting for big managing positions has shot up significantly during the last year. In the companies I visit and work with, the “old timer that still holds the job at 70” figure has disappeared. I guess part of it was COVID, but something tells me going remote has also shown a lot of them the truth that they were holding the company back in some aspects. The ones who did it still visit and work on reduced schedules, but have become less hands on and are more trusting towards younger coworkers. People are resigning because there’s a bug reshuffling of the labor markets. My only fear right now is that, at least here in Spain, every company seems eager to go back to 5 days in the office, while everyone I know wants to keep some form of remote work(from full remote to 3 days remote 2 in office). We’ll se where everything lands on, but labor markets here have been always been a “buyers” market..
- hogrider 5y agoHow is this even a question when jumping ship is a 10 to 20% pay bump minimum and satying on a meager 5% or having increased responsibility for a year or longer before making a promotion official?