57 ms·
Aranese: Spain's little-known language
- iqanq 5y agoAnother language that is kept in life support with the taxes of all the citizens of the country for no clear benefit to the country as a whole.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- agubelu 5y agoApparently, maintaining a historical and cultural element such as a language is not worth spending a neglectable amount of tax money because... it doesn't provide monetary returns?
- iqanq 5y agoNothing that we pay for with our taxes provides a monetary return. That doesn't mean we should waste money, especially in a country like Spain.
- laurensr 5y agoI disagree wholeheartedly. Although an AI engine would probably consider this 'better' and 'more efficient' this doesn't mean it's morally the right thing to do.
- dasloop 5y agoOptimizing other’s culture
- lmm 5y agoIn my experience these movements are populated extensively by parents who won't put in the effort to learn "their" language pushing it on their children. (Speaking as a bitter Welsh guy)
- lbrito 5y ago>especially in a country like Spain Why specially Spain?
- iamacyborg 5y agoTheir economy hasn’t been doing very well.
- ggrrhh_ta 5y agoMaybe referring to the fact that Spain cannot afford spending money on its cultural heritage after having bailed out the banks with between 40 and 100 billion euros (or if those figures (from Wikipedia) are still too controversial, let's say at least a couple of billions only).
- la_oveja 5y agoIt is not wasting money if it helps mantaining cultural heritage. Just because you dont give it value, its not valueless.
- fritztastic 5y ago> especially in a country like Spain. Funny considering Catalonia pays more in taxes than Madrid.
- weatherlight 5y agoI'm not sure why you are being down voted for saying this. Citation here -> https://www.cnn.com/2017/09/27/europe/catalan-referendum-explained/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2017/09/27/europe/catalan-referendum-exp...
- elnatro 5y agoOld article. Please, be advised that the push for independence referendum in 2017 was illegal, as the autonomous communities can’t organize referendums (as per the Spanish Constitution). Note that the nationalists have made no proposal for a Constitutional change in that way.
- cronopios 5y agoThat's simply not true: Spanish Constitution do allow autonomous communities to organize referenda. As a matter of fact, quite a few have been held: * Basque Country, 1979-10-25: Referéndum sobre el proyecto de Estatuto de Autonomía para el País Vasco * Catalonia, 1979-10-25: Referéndum sobre el Estatuto de Autonomía de Cataluña * Andalusia, 1980-02-28: Referéndum sobre la iniciativa del proceso autonómico de Andalucía * Galicia, 1980-12-21: Referendum sobre el Estatuto de Autonomía de Galicia * Andalusia, 1981-10-20: Referéndum sobre el Estatuto de Autonomía de Andalucía * Catalonia, 2006-06-18: Referéndum sobre la reforma del Estatuto de Autonomía de Cataluña * Andalusia, 2007-02-18: Referéndum sobre la reforma del Estatuto de Autonomía de Andalucía
- elnatro 5y agoThose referendums were about constituting the regions as Autonomous Communities (what in USA is an “state”), or about updating their “estatuto de autonomía” (declaration of state). They were not about independence from Spain. Actually, Spain forbids independence clearly in its Constitution, as it is illegal in many other countries, like the USA for example.
- type0 5y ago> especially in a country like Spain. especially while Spain continues to waste money on entertainment consisting of animal cruelty
- Sporktacular 5y ago"Nothing that we pay for with our taxes provides a monetary return." What? Roads, schools, subsidised healthcare. Even the next sentence is a non-sequitur. You're talking crap.
- nine_k 5y agoEducation or healthcare provide returns which are not directly monetary.
- Sporktacular 5y agoThey provide a monetary return.
- melenaboija 5y agoCould you prove this? Specially education. It seems to me that educated communities bring investments of sectors that need some specific skills.
- Tor3 5y agoMy father was on sick leave for six months waiting for surgery. When he finally reached the start of the queue and got the operation he was back at work the week after, again becoming a taxpayer. Of course it pays to have working healthcare. And it even pays more to have a healthcare system which gets more people back to work as quick as possible. That's so short from "directly monetary" that I don't see the difference.
- harperlee 5y agoOk, a more charitative reading of the parent: it is (badly) referring to the idea that public services are not a bad idea just because they operate at a loss, due to their positive externalities. E.g. a road is a “bad investment” if you only look at direct profit (which is 0 if you dont set up a toll). Obviously they do provide value and that value can often be defined as indirect monetary return. There’s also value for the country that is not easy to monetize in money terms, such as more education helping voters be less manipulable.
- AniseAbyss 5y agoI'd argue that if a language needs to be subsidized its going to die off anyway. But whatever money has been spent on dumber things.
- dereg 5y agoBy this train of logic, Greece should bulldoze the Acropolis and turn it into a hotel.
- cowuser666 5y agoThe Acropolis benefits the nation of Greece significantly. If this is the reductio, I guess the point stands.
- Spooky23 5y agoIt would make a great munitions warehouse.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- fritztastic 5y ago> Another language that is kept in life support with the taxes of all the citizens of the country for no clear benefit to the country as a whole. Just because you don't see the benefit of the language and culture of a distinct region being maintained by its own people, doesn't mean there isn't any. The world would certainly be worse off if we lost all the diversity in it because people only see things in terms of investment/gain but are blind to the richness of allowing people to maintain their heritage. Besides which the only part of the article that mentions taxes is when aomeone mentioned Andorra being an independent nation and paying less taxes to be autonomous than the people of Val d'Aran pay to Spain. Additionally Catalonia, where they speak Catalan, has been trying to separate from Spain. If anything, these languages are not in "life support" at the cost of all the citizens of the nation, they are actually paying more taxes due to being a part of said nation and have all the right to keep their language- especially so given the history of the region when it comes to their treatment by "the country as a whole".
- TacticalCoder 5y ago> Besides which the only part of the article that mentions taxes is when someone mentioned Andorra being an independent nation and paying less taxes to be autonomous than the people of Val d'Aran pay to Spain. Nitpicking: Andorra doesn't "pay tax to be autonomous" to Spain, nor to France for that matters. Andorra is the oldest country in Europe whose borders haven't changed since it was created (1278). It's a tiny country but it's a sovereign country. It has its own parliament and its official language (which is neither spanish nor french but catalan). Andorrans pay less taxes because Andorra is autonomous.
- fritztastic 5y agoThank you for clarifying. English is my second language and grammar is not my strong skill.
- UncleSlacky 5y ago> Andorra is the oldest country in Europe whose borders haven't changed since it was created (1278) San Marino is older, but I'm not sure if its borders have changed.
- xhevahir 5y agoMaybe look on that as compensation for decades of suppression by the central government?
- nekcihc 5y agoWith such chauvinistic attitude there is "no clear benefit" for tourists to visit Spain and leave money, that adds to taxes. There is a Georgian saying for this type of behaviour: do not disgrace your whole nation(with your personal arrogant attitude).
- zeruch 5y agoThen I suppose the planet should just switch en masse to English or Mandarin...you know, for beneficial "efficiency" because that is the sole purpose of human existence.
- lmm 5y agoThis but unironically. Languages are tools for communication. If you want the best future for your children, focus on giving them access to the most widespread languages with the broadest and deepest literary cultures.
- zeruch 5y agoThere are very few languages without depth of tradition, either/and oral or written. And your premise is predicated on "the best future" being an objective standard that all people seek, which is by and large, not the case. I don't disagree with your position in the abstract, but I think its a little too rigid for a world growing both increasingly "small" and contactable in all spaces, yet parochial in terms of people wanting to hold onto their local traditions. The two can in fact coincide, if everyone realizes that seeking total homogeneity isnt that great of a goal, even if it helps 'scaling'.
- mendigou 5y agoI'm curious, are you a native English speaker? I'm not, but I speak 7 languages. I can tell you they are not just "tools for communication". They are expressions of culture and you can see in them how people think. There are things I can say in Spanish that I can't say in German or Japanese, not because of lack of vocabulary (well, that too) but because the concepts just don't translate. And this happens in both directions. Even my behavior changes when I'm speaking some languages. Edit: it goes without saying but I believe that that diversity of cultures is a great thing we should cherish.
- iamacyborg 5y ago> you can see in them how people think. This is something that’s really difficult for folks to comprehend if they don’t speak more than one language but it’s a known phenomenon. https://qz.com/977356/being-bilingual-makes-you-experience-time-differently/ https://qz.com/977356/being-bilingual-makes-you-experience-t...
- gerardvivancos 5y agoHistorically, those taxes had been used to pay for wars and other acts that were used to spread Castillian in regions it was not spoken. Both in the Peninsula and South America. Nowadays, taxpayers money funds institutions that preserve and promote Castillian. Maybe don’t try to kill languages and life support won’t be needed. Also, it makes more sense to spend in preserving something fragile than to promote something already popular and strong. I am inclined to think it is not the taxpayers money that you are after
- overkalix 5y agoA classic of Spanish nationalism: produce laws/actions that create obstacles in the use of other languages, leading to Spanish being overwhelmingly used. Then those asymmetries in use are utilized to justify other laws that further deepen the inequality.
- mchaver 5y agoI think if Spain had taken a more Swiss approach towards federalization and language, it would be a much stronger nation. A lot of regional tension is a result of the central government blocking or overriding local decisions and political parties using non-Castillian identity as a scapegoat.
- cronopios 5y agoI wholeheartedly agree with you! Unfortunately, most don't see it that way. All those partisan attitudes make me sad.
- throwaway1777 5y agoThere are some other languages in Spain like Basque (pretty well known), Galician and Aragonese https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aragonese_language https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aragonese_language
- PaulDavisThe1st 5y agoLet's not forget Valencian, which if I understand correctly the Catalans gently pat on the head and say "there, there dear, if you want to pretend to be a different language from Catalan, we won't get in your way", while the Valencians irritatedly insist "It's not Catalan! It's a different language!"
- maxmalkav 5y agoIt’s complicated than that. Valencian is at best a dialect of Catalan, the differences are not significant enough to considere them two separate languages. The rejection of considering Valencian as Catalan has some links to Blaverism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blaverism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blaverism a “weird” Spanish nationalist movement from Valencia with marked Anti-Catalan character. Oficial languages in Spain are Basque, Catalan, Galician and Spanish (obviously). They survive others such as Aragonese, Bable or Extremeñu. Plus the Spanish dialects such as the Southern ones.
- PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago> the differences are not significant enough to considere them two separate languages. There are beach-front plaques in at least 2 towns near Valencia that, ahem, vigorously dispute your position :) Also, s/Spanish/Castillian/ surely?
- elnatro 5y agoWhy shouldn’t the language be called Spanish? What about Italian or German?
- Bayart 5y agoAranese is fairly normal Gascon speech, I don't think it qualifies as its own subdialect [1]. This being said, there's something to be said about Gascon as a whole potentially being its own language, as is considered Catalan. Among Occitan dialects, it's highly eccentric. As for Aranese speakers, to me (I have some amount of Limousin and Provençal) native ones [2] are understandable to the same extent as other Gascon speakers, but new speakers who bring Castellan phonological features are incomprehensible. If it manages to survives in this environment, it could truly be a new language in the making. [1]: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Isoglosas_gasc%C3%B3n-oc_(principales_ciudades).svg https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Isoglosas_gasc%C3%B3... [2]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdYpvY6Efos https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdYpvY6Efos
- nekcihc 5y agoImagine my first time discovering when I found out that Limousin(car) (apparently)is named after a region and that there is language named Limousin.
- Bayart 5y agoIt's also the name of a cattle breed that's native to the region [1] and famed for its meat, as well as the name by which the very language discusses in this thread used to go by during the Middle Ages (as the Limousin dialect formed the basis for the normalized form of Occitan, that was used by the Troubadour movement ever since its inception by Eble II of Ventadorn). [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limousin_cattle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limousin_cattle
- mrlonglong 5y agoIt's also a girl's name - Limousine. We had a French girl by that name stay with us on an exchange visit.
- rjtavares 5y agoI mean, it's only a Limousine if it comes fron the french region of Limousin. Otherwise it's just an unnecessarily long sparkling car.
- davidw 5y ago> Val d'Aran is the only community within Spain's contiguous borders that's located on the northern slopes of the Pyrenees. That seems to hint at something not in the contiguous borders - but Llivia is still on the southern slopes from what I can tell.
- mkl 5y agoI think maybe they meant Catalonia and failed at rewording Wikipedia [1], which says: "This valley constitutes the only contiguous part of Catalonia located on the northern side of the Pyrenees." Your point still stands, that the wording is strange in Wikipedia, and River Runner agrees [2] that Llívia is on the south side. I think the BBC's wording is doubly incorrect, as there are other places in Spain north of the Pyrenees, e.g. Irun [3]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Val_d%27Aran https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Val_d%27Aran [2] https://river-runner-global.samlearner.com/?lng=1.975577687580511&lat=42.463363706966675 https://river-runner-global.samlearner.com/?lng=1.9755776875... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irun https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irun
- Mordisquitos 5y agoIn fact, they're wrong because of a much more subtle and little-known example. The village of Luzaide/Valcarlos (Basque/Castilian names) in Navarre is actually on the northern slopes of the Pyrenees by a tiny bit: - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luzaide/Valcarlos https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luzaide/Valcarlos - https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/343733 https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/343733
- pants-no-pants 5y agoThere is a similar situation in northern Italy, where there is an area known as Val di Non. Their dialect sounds as much French as Italian, even though it's south of Innsbruck, far from France. These things seem to have one thing in common — they are areas historically isolated from one another, usually by mountains or valleys. Before cars (or even roads) were common, you could almost throw a rock at the next town over, but to actually go there would take a day or more.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- scrown 5y agoAny other aranese speakers in HN? Beth aranés més per ací?
- 0x142857 5y agoara ara
- martibravo 5y agoFun fact: The Catalan Government gave Aranese the same recognition as Catalan, so the small minority of Aranese speakers in Catalonia can communicate and do business with the Govt. in their language. Note: only in use by the Catalan Govt. Not the Spanish Govt.
- Mordisquitos 5y agoAnother fun fact: the name Aran, like many place names in the western half of the Pyrenees (especially north Aragon), derives from proto-Basque languages that used to be spoken in the broad area. In particular, the name Aran comes from "haran" which means "valley", making Val d'Aran (or "Aran Valley") a tautological placename: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tautological_place_names#Other https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tautological_place_nam...
- pagutierrezn 5y agoTo make the matter even more interesting, the term "Aran" is a basque toponim for "valley". So, Val d'Aran means "Valley of valley". It seems that basque was spoken there between XII and XIII according to wikipedia