8 ms·

If I understand correctly, israel mandates a third shot (to do normal stuff), as do many places in north america, either now or soon. And I can only imagine man

If I understand correctly, israel mandates a third shot (to do normal stuff), as do many places in north america, either now or soon. And I can only imagine many people would be happy to mandate a fourth as soon as possible. What I find most frustrating is that politicians are happy to make these mandates live, during an ongoing situation where we actually don't know a lot about how effective things are (and in the case of the latest variant, we know they are not effective). It's one thing to provide treatment to people that want it, and to share the latest thinking and advice. But it becomes pretty ridiculous when the latest musings go unfiltered into mandates. I read there is an omicron specific vaccine that will be ready in a couple months. Will that then immediately be forced on everyone, even if they've already had their 3-4 shots? What if we invent another thing? Vaccines make sense, but real time forcing people to take them as soon as they're invented doesn't. I have my three shots, but I'm terrified now that the precident is set that a government can force me to take something that I might not want to. When was the last time anyone actually trusted a government?

Daishiman 5y ago
> And I can only imagine many people would be happy to mandate a fourth as soon as possible. I'm sorry but I'm not understanding the logic. The booster was recommended after several rounds of research across multiple countries suggested it was a good idea, with Israel doing some of the first testing and reaching the conclusion that it was worthwhile (and it was, by a substantial margin). Their research is now indicating that this is about as far as it goes, which is quite reasonable as most vaccination regimens generally require two or three shots to achieve maximum effect. The subtext of what you're saying is that politicans came to a knee-jerk conclusion that a third shot was necessary and inductively any further shot will so as well. The science does not bear this out, and the third shot was backed by science, not by politicians wanting to do something. Your position sounds like misplaced skepticism.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- timr 5y ago
  > I'm sorry but I'm not understanding the logic. The booster was recommended after several rounds of research across multiple countries suggested it was a good idea, with Israel doing some of the first testing and reaching the conclusion that it was worthwhile (and it was, by a substantial margin). You are misinformed. There is a paucity of data supporting boosters, what little exists is for people over 65 (to be fair, the argument in support of boosters seems robust for this group), and the FDA and CDC advisory committees both recommended against boosting of younger populations. They were bypassed. Two long-time FDA scientists resigned over the issue: https://www.cnn.com/2021/09/13/health/boosters-not-needed-lancet-review/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2021/09/13/health/boosters-not-needed-la... They wrote a scathing review of the situation in the Lancet: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(21)02046-8/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6... Paul Offit (inventor of the Rotavirus vaccine, member of CDC ACIP, and vaccine advocate) is on the record saying that he doesn't advise his own 20-something son to get a booster dose: https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2022/01/should-teens-get-booster-omicron/621222/ https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2022/01/should-te... https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2021/12/omicron-dr-paul-offit-is-skeptical-of-boosters-for-all.html https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2021/12/omicron-dr-paul-offi... The headlong rush toward boosters in all age groups is simply not supported by evidence. (edit: I used the word "mandatory" above; this was a mistake in my own wordering, and I removed it. CDC ACIP recommended that older populations should get a booster, but did not do this for those under 50. I incorrectly summarized this as "recommended against mandatory boosters".)
  - kyrra 5y ago
    And many (most?) of these policies ignore natural immunity that people are getting from catching COVID.
    - Daishiman 5y ago
      They do https://academic.oup.com/cid/advance-article/doi/10.1093/cid/ciac022/6507165 https://academic.oup.com/cid/advance-article/doi/10.1093/cid... .
ErikVandeWater 5y ago
> When was the last time anyone actually trusted a government? My feeling is that people trust the government to the extent it does things their perceived enemies dislike. It's not about evaluating what's good for yourself or others; just knowing that your enemy dislikes it is a good enough signal that it's the right thing to do. Also, if your perceived enemy likes something that happens, that means it was automatically a wrong thing to do. The government is just a cudgel each side uses against the other. And each side adds nails to the cudgel each time they possess it, even though they know its possession is likely to return to the enemy.
- sokoloff 5y ago
  When considering how much power the federal government should ideally have, it’s wise to always remember that: one day, a party that you dislike will wield that power. Don’t think about what good you could do with all that power (because you’ll likely undershoot your positive intent anyway), but think about what bad someone who thought the opposite of what you want could do. It’s easier to destroy things than to build then up, so even if they also undershoot their positive intent, they can likely deliver on the things you’d find negative.
  - kcplate 5y ago
    I wish more people considered this, but sadly most don’t.
- jimkleiber 5y ago
  I'd add that most of us probably trust most governments a lot more than we think we do, especially in the US.
yed 5y ago
If you’re in the US, the federal vaccine mandate was quashed by the Supreme Court, so no need to be terrified.
- Blackstrat 5y ago
  It was a weak decision. They allowed the CMS mandate to stand which provides the government yet another back door to coerce the population.
- colechristensen 5y ago
  Locally, the mayor decided to mandate vaccines for restaurant customers. I really doubt he has the legal authority if tested in court, but here it is. I am vaccinated but excluded from basically all of the public sphere if I don’t want to go around proving it (I don’t, might for certain circumstances still).
  - ghaff 5y ago
    And it's still in place for federal contractors, and it's still in place for states, and it's presumably still in place for private businesses.
    - yed 5y ago
      The federal contractor mandate is not in place, it was put on hold by the courts and none so far has sided with the Feds. The federal private business mandate is gone, it was quashed by the Supreme Court. What states decide is separate from what the federal government decides and varies from state to state, which is how the system is supposed to work.
shock-value 5y ago
> and in the case of the latest variant, we know they are not effective I assume you are talking about stopping spread, which could be accurate. I further assume you are not referring to reducing illness severity, because they obviously are effective at that. But that benefit extends beyond the individual insofar as it reduces strain on the overall healthcare system -- ensuring that even those who have injuries or illnesses that have nothing to do with the disease in question receive adequate care. Therefore a vaccine mandate (or restrictions placed upon those who aren't vaccinated) can still be justified.
- FridayoLeary 5y ago
  It's moving the goalpoasts. The reason the vaccine enjoyed so much initial support was because it was supposed to make covid go away. The politicians seem to think even though the reality has changed, support for the vaccine has remained constant.
  - Izkata 5y ago
    > The reason the vaccine enjoyed so much initial support was because it was supposed to make covid go away. Eh, not really. Even that didn't actually come from the vaccine trials; Pfizer and Moderna never tested for infection/transmission, and only made claims on symptoms/disease. Stopping infection/transmission just sorta popped out of politicians/media in early 2021, not actual research - that came a month or two later, and from what I remember the strongest claim was that it might help.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
  - kittiepryde 5y ago
    That's not really how vaccines work. No force fields are deployed, you'll still catch COVID, but, you're immune system is now got some training in how to handle the situation. I don't remember the promise that, the vaccine would end COVID, I do remember seeing somewhere that if vaccination rates were high enough ( greater than 90%??, been quite awhile now since I read that article ) that herd immunity could be achievable and the spread would eventually end. At least in the US, vaccination rates never even got close.
throwaway984393 5y ago
If they don't mandate, people will die. If they do mandate, potentially less people will die. By mandating before there's some kind of irrefutable proof that it'll help, they're saying that saving people's lives is worth any social or economic headache. Also: your government is, I take it, some form of representative democracy? Saying you don't trust the government is identical to saying you don't trust the people of your nation. My suggestion is to try to fix that rather than just accept it blithely. edit: Haha, I love how quickly I get downvoted for giving rational views of cost/benefit and politics.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- peteradio 5y ago
  Personal choices rarely come under democratic rule and only begrudgingly.
threeseed 5y ago
a) Billions of doses of vaccines have been administered. We know a lot about their effectiveness. b) Current vaccines with a booster are effective at preventing hospitalisations. It is enough to get the world through Omicron but special vaccines maybe useful for those who are immuno-compromised. c) Children have been forced to take vaccines for decades. It's not new. d) People trust their government every day. Who do you think builds the roads, operates the hospitals and other essential services, sets out safety regulations etc.
- andrei_says_ 5y ago
  In the US hospitals are private, charge astronomical amounts for the tiniest things and their price lists are secret. It is horrifying, brutal, inhumane. Also hospitals intentionally understaff, and pay their staff the absolute minimum while paying millions and millions to their CEOs. In addition to recommending procedures treatments and drugs as profit maximizers.
  - yucky 5y ago
    >Also hospitals intentionally understaff, and pay their staff the absolute minimum Nurses and doctors make more in the US than any other country. Are you referring to other support staff?
    - andrei_says_ 5y ago
      Is it difficult to imagine that U.S. nurses can be paid better than nurses in other countries but at the same time not paid well enough and exploited beyond their breaking point? A bit of context: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/19/opinion/nurses-staffing-hospitals-covid-19.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/19/opinion/nurses-staffing-h... Here's a response by an anonymous staff member at LA's Children's Hospital: ( https://old.reddit.com/r/LosAngeles/comments/s7wfqo/we_know_the_real_cause_of_the_crisis_in_our/htcjyc7/ https://old.reddit.com/r/LosAngeles/comments/s7wfqo/we_know_... ) Summary: Hospitals cut costs by staffing the bare minimum. Patients aren’t receiving the care the should be. Nurses are experiencing moral distress and leaving en masse. I work at CHLA. We are losing experienced nurses due to the lowest wages in the LA area for the level of care we give. Shameful for a hospital that is Best Children’s Hospital in the west. The pay discrepancy between the executives and staff is criminal We need more publicity about this. Help the nurses out and let’s get more eyes on this issue, particularly CHLA. Celebrities love that place and use it for PR often. Let’s give the nurses some badly needed PR. They are non-union and notoriously underpaid. Best care for kids maybe but also best kept secret in worker’s dissatisfaction
heavyset_go 5y ago
> I have my three shots, but I'm terrified now that the precident is set that a government can force me to take something that I might not want to. That precedent was already set by the Supreme Court in Jacobson v. Massachusetts in 1905.
- Proven 5y ago
- nathanaldensr 5y ago
  It's well known by now that that case specifically addresses a state, not the federal government, and that it was a matter of a fine, not a forced injection.
  - heavyset_go 5y ago
    The OP said "a government" and I'm willing to bet that they also think that a vaccine mandate enforced with a fine is "force", because they seem to think that they're being forced to be vaccinated already.
  - Tagbert 5y ago
    How have you been fairing since your recent forced injection?
divbzero 5y ago
In what places or contexts are boosters mandated? As far as I know they aren’t in the US right now.
- akvadrako 5y ago
  Some places in Europe, for example Austria.
- rkk3 5y ago
  In many college's Boosters are mandated for students, who are simultaneously the least likely to benefit from more protection and have a higher likelihood of side effects.
- jgb1984 5y ago
  Unfortunately several European countries consider people with 2 shots unvaccinated by now, and more countries are scheduled to follow that strategy. France, Italy and Austria are the ones I know of. They consider the original 2nd shot to "expire" after 6 months, so you are forced to take the booster unless you want to live like a hermit. I strongly dislike this.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
Something1234 5y ago
To the people asking for caution about these vaccines, how long did it take from development to roll out for the polio shot? Was there the same reluctance?
- rajup 5y ago
  Apples and oranges. One disease killed and maimed millions of children while the other disease is nothing more than a flu (for most of the population).
- lenkite 5y ago
  How many "boosters" did the polio vaccine need ? The polio vaccine was a real vaccine that provided 90% LIFELONG immunity protection to all three types of poliovirus not this Covid vaccine crap that required "re-definition" of the word vaccine. Covid vaccines have created many, many new billionaires. https://www.forbes.com/sites/giacomotognini/2021/04/06/meet-the-40-new-billionaires-who-got-rich-fighting-covid-19/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/giacomotognini/2021/04/06/meet-... Covid is Big Pharma's ultimate wet dream where they can continually keep pushing mandated 'boosters' for every new variant onto the gullible public through uncertainty and fear. And make sure to 'generously donate' to the health-committee politicians enforcing recommendations/mandates. https://www.statnews.com/feature/prescription-politics/federal-full-data-set/ https://www.statnews.com/feature/prescription-politics/feder... https://theintercept.com/2021/12/14/pfizer-moderna-covid-vaccines-2020-dark-money/ https://theintercept.com/2021/12/14/pfizer-moderna-covid-vac...
- native_samples 5y ago
  Six years and that wasn't enough time. The initial Polio vaccines were a disaster: they caused polio in the people who took them. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/labs/pmc/articles/PMC2928990/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/labs/pmc/articles/PMC2928990/ Abstract: The Salk inactivated poliovirus vaccine is one of the most rapid examples of bench‐to‐bedside translation in medicine. In the span of 6 years, the key basic lab discoveries facilitating the development of the vaccine were made, optimization and safety testing was completed in both animals and human volunteers, the largest clinical trial in history of 1.8 million children was conducted, and the results were released to an eagerly awaiting public. Such examples of rapid translation cannot only offer clues to what factors can successfully drive and accelerate the translational process but also what mistakes can occur (and thus should be avoided) during such a swift process. In this commentary, we explore the translational path of the Salk polio vaccine from the key basic science discoveries to the 1954 Field Trials and delve into the scientific and sociopolitical factors that aided in its rapid development. Moreover, we look at the Cutter and Wyeth incidents after the vaccine’s approval and the errors that led to them. The Cutter incident: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/labs/pmc/articles/PMC1383764/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/labs/pmc/articles/PMC1383764/ In April 1955 more than 200 000 children in five Western and mid-Western USA states received a polio vaccine in which the process of inactivating the live virus proved to be defective. Within days there were reports of paralysis and within a month the first mass vaccination programme against polio had to be abandoned. Subsequent investigations revealed that the vaccine, manufactured by the California-based family firm of Cutter Laboratories, had caused 40 000 cases of polio, leaving 200 children with varying degrees of paralysis and killing 10. This isn't restricted to the past. It can still happen today. https://abcnews.go.com/Health/wireStory/polio-cases-now-caused-vaccine-wild-virus-67287290 https://abcnews.go.com/Health/wireStory/polio-cases-now-caus... LONDON -- Four African countries have reported new cases of polio linked to the oral vaccine, as global health numbers show there are now more children being paralyzed by viruses originating in vaccines than in the wild.
StanislavPetrov 5y ago
Anyone who has read the data understands that the third immunotherapy shot (the "booster") reduces the chances of death or serious illness from COVID by a few hundred thousandths of a percent. This vanishingly small reduction in risk from COVID is matched or exceeded by the similarly small risks posed by this additional dose of immunotherapy. The unsubstantiated proposition that even more injections of this experimental immunotherapy will do less harm than good is one that should be rejected by people who believe in science and objective reality unless and until hard data of the benefits is offered. To me, this situation is very similar to someone who thinks that doubling or tripling the amount of medication they take to treat an ailment translates into double or triple the desire results. This isn't the case, and is often very dangerous. Everyone, especially young people who plan on living a long time, should be very wary and skeptical of taking multiple doses of experimental immunotherapies (or any other new, experimental drug) with unknown risks and no proven benefits.
hffftz 5y ago
pipodeclown 5y ago
I really don't get this 'precedent being set' argument. I do agree that these extraordinary powers being granted to governments should have a due date build into the law as to make clear that this is a temporary measure for an extraordinary situation. Unfortunately, in many places, that's not the case. In my view, extraordinary situations do however require and justify extraordinary measures. You didn't hear people during WWII saying they were terrified of precedents being set by the government forcing blackouts and curfews on them? It was understood that that extraordinary situation required extraordinary measures and nobody expected governments to continue those measures after the imminent danger had passed because some precedent was set. People are rioting all over the world in the middle of a pandemic because they have to stay indoors a bit, and life is being made a bit more difficult if you don't want to get a shot. What do you seriously think the response will be if those types of measures would continue once the pandemic has passed?

Daishiman 5y ago

> And I can only imagine many people would be happy to mandate a fourth as soon as possible. I'm sorry but I'm not understanding the logic. The booster was recommended after several rounds of research across multiple countries suggested it was a good idea, with Israel doing some of the first testing and reaching the conclusion that it was worthwhile (and it was, by a substantial margin). Their research is now indicating that this is about as far as it goes, which is quite reasonable as most vaccination regimens generally require two or three shots to achieve maximum effect. The subtext of what you're saying is that politicans came to a knee-jerk conclusion that a third shot was necessary and inductively any further shot will so as well. The science does not bear this out, and the third shot was backed by science, not by politicians wanting to do something. Your position sounds like misplaced skepticism.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
timr 5y ago
> I'm sorry but I'm not understanding the logic. The booster was recommended after several rounds of research across multiple countries suggested it was a good idea, with Israel doing some of the first testing and reaching the conclusion that it was worthwhile (and it was, by a substantial margin). You are misinformed. There is a paucity of data supporting boosters, what little exists is for people over 65 (to be fair, the argument in support of boosters seems robust for this group), and the FDA and CDC advisory committees both recommended against boosting of younger populations. They were bypassed. Two long-time FDA scientists resigned over the issue: https://www.cnn.com/2021/09/13/health/boosters-not-needed-lancet-review/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2021/09/13/health/boosters-not-needed-la... They wrote a scathing review of the situation in the Lancet: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(21)02046-8/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6... Paul Offit (inventor of the Rotavirus vaccine, member of CDC ACIP, and vaccine advocate) is on the record saying that he doesn't advise his own 20-something son to get a booster dose: https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2022/01/should-teens-get-booster-omicron/621222/ https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2022/01/should-te... https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2021/12/omicron-dr-paul-offit-is-skeptical-of-boosters-for-all.html https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2021/12/omicron-dr-paul-offi... The headlong rush toward boosters in all age groups is simply not supported by evidence. (edit: I used the word "mandatory" above; this was a mistake in my own wordering, and I removed it. CDC ACIP recommended that older populations should get a booster, but did not do this for those under 50. I incorrectly summarized this as "recommended against mandatory boosters".)
- kyrra 5y ago
  And many (most?) of these policies ignore natural immunity that people are getting from catching COVID.
  - Daishiman 5y ago
    They do https://academic.oup.com/cid/advance-article/doi/10.1093/cid/ciac022/6507165 https://academic.oup.com/cid/advance-article/doi/10.1093/cid... .

ErikVandeWater 5y ago

> When was the last time anyone actually trusted a government? My feeling is that people trust the government to the extent it does things their perceived enemies dislike. It's not about evaluating what's good for yourself or others; just knowing that your enemy dislikes it is a good enough signal that it's the right thing to do. Also, if your perceived enemy likes something that happens, that means it was automatically a wrong thing to do. The government is just a cudgel each side uses against the other. And each side adds nails to the cudgel each time they possess it, even though they know its possession is likely to return to the enemy.

sokoloff 5y ago
When considering how much power the federal government should ideally have, it’s wise to always remember that: one day, a party that you dislike will wield that power. Don’t think about what good you could do with all that power (because you’ll likely undershoot your positive intent anyway), but think about what bad someone who thought the opposite of what you want could do. It’s easier to destroy things than to build then up, so even if they also undershoot their positive intent, they can likely deliver on the things you’d find negative.
- kcplate 5y ago
  I wish more people considered this, but sadly most don’t.
jimkleiber 5y ago
I'd add that most of us probably trust most governments a lot more than we think we do, especially in the US.

yed 5y ago

If you’re in the US, the federal vaccine mandate was quashed by the Supreme Court, so no need to be terrified.

Blackstrat 5y ago
It was a weak decision. They allowed the CMS mandate to stand which provides the government yet another back door to coerce the population.
colechristensen 5y ago
Locally, the mayor decided to mandate vaccines for restaurant customers. I really doubt he has the legal authority if tested in court, but here it is. I am vaccinated but excluded from basically all of the public sphere if I don’t want to go around proving it (I don’t, might for certain circumstances still).
- ghaff 5y ago
  And it's still in place for federal contractors, and it's still in place for states, and it's presumably still in place for private businesses.
  - yed 5y ago
    The federal contractor mandate is not in place, it was put on hold by the courts and none so far has sided with the Feds. The federal private business mandate is gone, it was quashed by the Supreme Court. What states decide is separate from what the federal government decides and varies from state to state, which is how the system is supposed to work.

shock-value 5y ago

> and in the case of the latest variant, we know they are not effective I assume you are talking about stopping spread, which could be accurate. I further assume you are not referring to reducing illness severity, because they obviously are effective at that. But that benefit extends beyond the individual insofar as it reduces strain on the overall healthcare system -- ensuring that even those who have injuries or illnesses that have nothing to do with the disease in question receive adequate care. Therefore a vaccine mandate (or restrictions placed upon those who aren't vaccinated) can still be justified.

FridayoLeary 5y ago
It's moving the goalpoasts. The reason the vaccine enjoyed so much initial support was because it was supposed to make covid go away. The politicians seem to think even though the reality has changed, support for the vaccine has remained constant.
- Izkata 5y ago
  > The reason the vaccine enjoyed so much initial support was because it was supposed to make covid go away. Eh, not really. Even that didn't actually come from the vaccine trials; Pfizer and Moderna never tested for infection/transmission, and only made claims on symptoms/disease. Stopping infection/transmission just sorta popped out of politicians/media in early 2021, not actual research - that came a month or two later, and from what I remember the strongest claim was that it might help.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- kittiepryde 5y ago
  That's not really how vaccines work. No force fields are deployed, you'll still catch COVID, but, you're immune system is now got some training in how to handle the situation. I don't remember the promise that, the vaccine would end COVID, I do remember seeing somewhere that if vaccination rates were high enough ( greater than 90%??, been quite awhile now since I read that article ) that herd immunity could be achievable and the spread would eventually end. At least in the US, vaccination rates never even got close.

throwaway984393 5y ago

If they don't mandate, people will die. If they do mandate, potentially less people will die. By mandating before there's some kind of irrefutable proof that it'll help, they're saying that saving people's lives is worth any social or economic headache. Also: your government is, I take it, some form of representative democracy? Saying you don't trust the government is identical to saying you don't trust the people of your nation. My suggestion is to try to fix that rather than just accept it blithely. edit: Haha, I love how quickly I get downvoted for giving rational views of cost/benefit and politics.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
peteradio 5y ago
Personal choices rarely come under democratic rule and only begrudgingly.

threeseed 5y ago

a) Billions of doses of vaccines have been administered. We know a lot about their effectiveness. b) Current vaccines with a booster are effective at preventing hospitalisations. It is enough to get the world through Omicron but special vaccines maybe useful for those who are immuno-compromised. c) Children have been forced to take vaccines for decades. It's not new. d) People trust their government every day. Who do you think builds the roads, operates the hospitals and other essential services, sets out safety regulations etc.

andrei_says_ 5y ago
In the US hospitals are private, charge astronomical amounts for the tiniest things and their price lists are secret. It is horrifying, brutal, inhumane. Also hospitals intentionally understaff, and pay their staff the absolute minimum while paying millions and millions to their CEOs. In addition to recommending procedures treatments and drugs as profit maximizers.
- yucky 5y ago
  >Also hospitals intentionally understaff, and pay their staff the absolute minimum Nurses and doctors make more in the US than any other country. Are you referring to other support staff?
  - andrei_says_ 5y ago
    Is it difficult to imagine that U.S. nurses can be paid better than nurses in other countries but at the same time not paid well enough and exploited beyond their breaking point? A bit of context: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/19/opinion/nurses-staffing-hospitals-covid-19.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/19/opinion/nurses-staffing-h... Here's a response by an anonymous staff member at LA's Children's Hospital: ( https://old.reddit.com/r/LosAngeles/comments/s7wfqo/we_know_the_real_cause_of_the_crisis_in_our/htcjyc7/ https://old.reddit.com/r/LosAngeles/comments/s7wfqo/we_know_... ) Summary: Hospitals cut costs by staffing the bare minimum. Patients aren’t receiving the care the should be. Nurses are experiencing moral distress and leaving en masse. I work at CHLA. We are losing experienced nurses due to the lowest wages in the LA area for the level of care we give. Shameful for a hospital that is Best Children’s Hospital in the west. The pay discrepancy between the executives and staff is criminal We need more publicity about this. Help the nurses out and let’s get more eyes on this issue, particularly CHLA. Celebrities love that place and use it for PR often. Let’s give the nurses some badly needed PR. They are non-union and notoriously underpaid. Best care for kids maybe but also best kept secret in worker’s dissatisfaction

heavyset_go 5y ago

> I have my three shots, but I'm terrified now that the precident is set that a government can force me to take something that I might not want to. That precedent was already set by the Supreme Court in Jacobson v. Massachusetts in 1905.

Proven 5y ago
nathanaldensr 5y ago
It's well known by now that that case specifically addresses a state, not the federal government, and that it was a matter of a fine, not a forced injection.
- heavyset_go 5y ago
  The OP said "a government" and I'm willing to bet that they also think that a vaccine mandate enforced with a fine is "force", because they seem to think that they're being forced to be vaccinated already.
- Tagbert 5y ago
  How have you been fairing since your recent forced injection?

divbzero 5y ago

In what places or contexts are boosters mandated? As far as I know they aren’t in the US right now.

akvadrako 5y ago
Some places in Europe, for example Austria.
rkk3 5y ago
In many college's Boosters are mandated for students, who are simultaneously the least likely to benefit from more protection and have a higher likelihood of side effects.
jgb1984 5y ago
Unfortunately several European countries consider people with 2 shots unvaccinated by now, and more countries are scheduled to follow that strategy. France, Italy and Austria are the ones I know of. They consider the original 2nd shot to "expire" after 6 months, so you are forced to take the booster unless you want to live like a hermit. I strongly dislike this.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

Something1234 5y ago

To the people asking for caution about these vaccines, how long did it take from development to roll out for the polio shot? Was there the same reluctance?

rajup 5y ago
Apples and oranges. One disease killed and maimed millions of children while the other disease is nothing more than a flu (for most of the population).
lenkite 5y ago
How many "boosters" did the polio vaccine need ? The polio vaccine was a real vaccine that provided 90% LIFELONG immunity protection to all three types of poliovirus not this Covid vaccine crap that required "re-definition" of the word vaccine. Covid vaccines have created many, many new billionaires. https://www.forbes.com/sites/giacomotognini/2021/04/06/meet-the-40-new-billionaires-who-got-rich-fighting-covid-19/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/giacomotognini/2021/04/06/meet-... Covid is Big Pharma's ultimate wet dream where they can continually keep pushing mandated 'boosters' for every new variant onto the gullible public through uncertainty and fear. And make sure to 'generously donate' to the health-committee politicians enforcing recommendations/mandates. https://www.statnews.com/feature/prescription-politics/federal-full-data-set/ https://www.statnews.com/feature/prescription-politics/feder... https://theintercept.com/2021/12/14/pfizer-moderna-covid-vaccines-2020-dark-money/ https://theintercept.com/2021/12/14/pfizer-moderna-covid-vac...
native_samples 5y ago
Six years and that wasn't enough time. The initial Polio vaccines were a disaster: they caused polio in the people who took them. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/labs/pmc/articles/PMC2928990/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/labs/pmc/articles/PMC2928990/ Abstract: The Salk inactivated poliovirus vaccine is one of the most rapid examples of bench‐to‐bedside translation in medicine. In the span of 6 years, the key basic lab discoveries facilitating the development of the vaccine were made, optimization and safety testing was completed in both animals and human volunteers, the largest clinical trial in history of 1.8 million children was conducted, and the results were released to an eagerly awaiting public. Such examples of rapid translation cannot only offer clues to what factors can successfully drive and accelerate the translational process but also what mistakes can occur (and thus should be avoided) during such a swift process. In this commentary, we explore the translational path of the Salk polio vaccine from the key basic science discoveries to the 1954 Field Trials and delve into the scientific and sociopolitical factors that aided in its rapid development. Moreover, we look at the Cutter and Wyeth incidents after the vaccine’s approval and the errors that led to them. The Cutter incident: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/labs/pmc/articles/PMC1383764/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/labs/pmc/articles/PMC1383764/ In April 1955 more than 200 000 children in five Western and mid-Western USA states received a polio vaccine in which the process of inactivating the live virus proved to be defective. Within days there were reports of paralysis and within a month the first mass vaccination programme against polio had to be abandoned. Subsequent investigations revealed that the vaccine, manufactured by the California-based family firm of Cutter Laboratories, had caused 40 000 cases of polio, leaving 200 children with varying degrees of paralysis and killing 10. This isn't restricted to the past. It can still happen today. https://abcnews.go.com/Health/wireStory/polio-cases-now-caused-vaccine-wild-virus-67287290 https://abcnews.go.com/Health/wireStory/polio-cases-now-caus... LONDON -- Four African countries have reported new cases of polio linked to the oral vaccine, as global health numbers show there are now more children being paralyzed by viruses originating in vaccines than in the wild.

StanislavPetrov 5y ago

Anyone who has read the data understands that the third immunotherapy shot (the "booster") reduces the chances of death or serious illness from COVID by a few hundred thousandths of a percent. This vanishingly small reduction in risk from COVID is matched or exceeded by the similarly small risks posed by this additional dose of immunotherapy. The unsubstantiated proposition that even more injections of this experimental immunotherapy will do less harm than good is one that should be rejected by people who believe in science and objective reality unless and until hard data of the benefits is offered. To me, this situation is very similar to someone who thinks that doubling or tripling the amount of medication they take to treat an ailment translates into double or triple the desire results. This isn't the case, and is often very dangerous. Everyone, especially young people who plan on living a long time, should be very wary and skeptical of taking multiple doses of experimental immunotherapies (or any other new, experimental drug) with unknown risks and no proven benefits.

hffftz 5y ago

pipodeclown 5y ago

I really don't get this 'precedent being set' argument. I do agree that these extraordinary powers being granted to governments should have a due date build into the law as to make clear that this is a temporary measure for an extraordinary situation. Unfortunately, in many places, that's not the case. In my view, extraordinary situations do however require and justify extraordinary measures. You didn't hear people during WWII saying they were terrified of precedents being set by the government forcing blackouts and curfews on them? It was understood that that extraordinary situation required extraordinary measures and nobody expected governments to continue those measures after the imminent danger had passed because some precedent was set. People are rioting all over the world in the middle of a pandemic because they have to stay indoors a bit, and life is being made a bit more difficult if you don't want to get a shot. What do you seriously think the response will be if those types of measures would continue once the pandemic has passed?