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> it affords you anonymity What? Bitcoin is radically transparent. The vast majority of crimes are committed with standard currencies like $USD. If 'crime' is

> it affords you anonymity What? Bitcoin is radically transparent. The vast majority of crimes are committed with standard currencies like $USD. If 'crime' is the only value you see, you're extremely ignorant. What is the bull case for $USD? What properties does it have that make it superior to currencies like $BTC in your opinion?

largbae 5y ago
One thing fiat currencies have that is underrated: a legal system to handle special cases. Recently, an apparently Bitcoin-rich man named Mircea Propescu died without sharing his private key(s). Now that fortune is gone with no recourse for next of kin. Maybe this is OK and everyone is happy to lose the safety net. But what about fraud? Do you want to have to take up arms to get your money back from someone who stole from you?
- joering2 5y ago
  For a starters, its not Bitcoin fault that someone did not have last will, or did not include the keys or their crypto in the last will. Second, when some large heist in the past happened on the chain, the largest exchanges announced they won't exchange proceeds from these addresses. It may still not be impossible to withdraw into fiat, but certainly it was harder. Eventually, there will be more regulation from US and other countries' bodies, some of it will benefit crypto holders, some inconvenience them some more. One example could be of a Government Body that oversees crypto fraud. If you had some coin stolen and you are able to prove they were yours and are unable to communicate with the party who took your coins, these assets can go into some form of public "coins on red notice list", where government puts them there, and exchanges can see the addresses and know not to accept or exchange these assets. If someone tries to, exchange can show them a notice information, instead of completing transaction. Another list government can maintain is "public call notice" (I'm just making these names up) similar to how public hearings are made. In this scenario, government can call up on an owner of some specific questionable coins to explain transactions behind. If no owner comes up in 30 days, these coins could be again put on "red notice" list. The bottom line is, since exchanges are regulated by governments, the governments will surely regulate even more. Ultimately because everything is transparent on a block chain, certain coins can become "dirty" just like money becomes tainted, and exchange or even possession of these coins can be made unlawful.
  - acdha 5y ago
    > For a starters, its not Bitcoin fault that someone did not have last will, or did not include the keys or their crypto in the last will. It’s not Ford’s fault that someone didn’t drive safely, and yet they’re required to build cars with safety features. Bitcoin’s design ensures that these mistakes happen regularly, and most users end up paying a “I can’t believe it’s not a bank” exchange to hold their Bitcoin for them due to the many irrecoverable risks if you do it yourself.
  - giaour 5y ago
    > For a starters, its not Bitcoin fault that someone did not have last will, or did not include the keys or their crypto in the last will. Since we can assume that some people will die without making arrangements to pass on their keys, then isn't it guaranteed that a non-inflationary cryptocurrency like BTC would eventually consist solely of lost, unreachable coins?
    - epolanski 5y ago
      No, but the reason would be simpler, the network dying because of low movement.
  - largbae 5y ago
    I think what you're describing is a centralized body that can use due process to resolve disputes. 4 legs good 2 legs better?
  - 01acheru 5y ago
    Since we cannot have an ever growing amount of BTC, you mean that in time more and more coins will be tainted? Assuming that frauds and heists and all that are constant but BTC generation is less than linear an ever growing percentage of coins will be tainted. Another thing: if someone steals money from me and I can prove it, and law can find him, and trial him, etc. I want the possibility to have my money back not some “coins on red notice”.
  - headsoup 5y ago
    Sounds like you're just talking the banking system and cash. Anonymity + regulation. They already regulate credit and banks have systems for fraud. What again does Bitcoin solve for over this?
CaptainZapp 5y ago
> What is the bull case for $USD? What properties does it have that make it superior to currencies like $BTC in your opinion? That I can spend USD in just about any shop or for any transaction, legal or not. While crypto "currencies"? I'd say: not so much.
- eric_cc 5y ago
  This is a short term advantage that is quickly evaporating. There are crypto credit cards now that allow you to achieve the same effect. Assuming this advantage disappears, are there any other bull cases for $USD?
  - squeaky-clean 5y ago
    I don't want a currency with a bull case. That means it discourages spending it in favor of holding it. I want a currency with an extremely slow bear case. Also my value of USD hasn't dropped 30% in the last month.
    - felipeko 5y ago
      It is a good thing to be encouraged to saving instead of spending. No one needs incentive to spend. You will spend if you have plenty to spend. Having a currency which gains in value will take you there.
      - 01acheru 5y ago
        > You will spend if you have plenty to spend. Having a currency which gains in value will take you there. That’s some pretty fanta-dreamy-economics. How can it possibly be true for everybody? Money from heaven?
        deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
      - Daishiman 5y ago
01acheru 5y ago
Maybe that you can buy bread with USD, or a house, or a car, or pay rent, or insurance, or gas, a coke on a vending machine, or stocks, or... well there are a lot of things you can do with USD that you cannot do with BTC right now.
- eric_cc 5y ago
  This advantage for $USD is already beginning to vanish. Assuming it does, are there any other reasons to be bullish $USD?
  - 01acheru 5y ago
    First of all I’m not seeing this advantage “beginning to vanish”. Even assuming it completely disappears we still need to solve: - energy inefficiency of BTC - extremely low number of transactions per unit of time - a currency lacking the possibility of reversing transfers is not compatible with most legal systems - full traceability of my wallet transactions open to the public - volatility And those are the first I can think of while paying little attention because I’m watching a movie…
    - eric_cc 5y ago
      Okay but the question was: what’s the bull case for $USD?
      - 01acheru 5y ago
        We started from your question “What properties does it have that make it superior to currencies like $BTC in your opinion?”. Then you changed subject about being bullish when replying. So you must either decide: are we talking about currencies or about speculative assets? There are no reasons to be bullish about currencies, that’s not their purpose.
        eric_cc 5y ago
        > There are no reasons to be bullish about currencies, that’s not their purpose. Whether you hold currencies, stocks, cryptos - these are all positions with various possible outcomes. A currency can become worthless through hyperinflation, for example. So yes, you absolutely should be sizing up your currency position and deciding whether it is to your advantage to hold it. You can say a currency bull case is that it’s stable representation of value. That thesis could play out or completely break down depending on how the government in control of the currency behaves themselves.
mcguire 5y ago
"What is the bull case for $USD?" Is Bitcoin a currency or an "investment"? (Here's a hint: you don't want a "bull case" for a currency.)
- eric_cc 5y ago
  > you don't want a "bull case" for a currency. Yes you do. Because currencies are a position to store value just like every other “investment”. Currencies can go bad and become literally worthless via hyperinflation, for example. And some currencies will hold their buying power better than others. To not consider whether your currency has a strong bull case… or whatever you want to call it… is basically blindly trusting it. That’s closer to faith and hope that logic.
epolanski 5y ago
Money has no properties or value. Both usd and bitcoin have an intrinsic value of zero. Unless you like staring at bills depicting national heroes, ofc. The reason you want money is that you know people around you want it and you can use it to acquire goods. Now, what makes USD a superior currency: - you don't need internet to use it - you don't need third party centralized unregulated services to use it (unless you want to run a full node) - you can exchange it with ease, in multiple formats. Give your daughter 0.0000000000045 bitcoins for lunch. - no fees for using it. - practically scales to infinity vs few hundreds transactions per minute. - doesn't require energy to run. The energy required by each transaction covers the needs (heating and transport included) of a family of 5 for days - very stable, I know how much things will cost a minute, hour or days from now, so my daughter eats even if whales are short squeezing markets by lunch time. - used mostly to buy services and goods vs never used to buy anything but other currencies. - inflationary, creates pressure to spend and invest rather than hoarding. Deflative currencies don't make sense to spend. Why would I buy X today at n bitcoins, if the deflative nature of bitcoin will make it more scarce and will make X cheaper. Why spend bitcoin today, if in few months there will be new highs and I can buy even more and so on. - de facto currency of international trade. Some countries like Russia try to do international trade in euro. What can have higher consensus? - 250 years of history - regulated through democratic means and under clear laws for the benefit of most; vs unregulated, mostly owned by few early anarco capitalists (i know people with thousands and thousands of bitcoin) and offshore scams. Basically very few people own most of bitcoins there are out there, very few people control most of the network. I think the list can get infinitely longer but it gets boring.

largbae 5y ago

One thing fiat currencies have that is underrated: a legal system to handle special cases. Recently, an apparently Bitcoin-rich man named Mircea Propescu died without sharing his private key(s). Now that fortune is gone with no recourse for next of kin. Maybe this is OK and everyone is happy to lose the safety net. But what about fraud? Do you want to have to take up arms to get your money back from someone who stole from you?

joering2 5y ago
For a starters, its not Bitcoin fault that someone did not have last will, or did not include the keys or their crypto in the last will. Second, when some large heist in the past happened on the chain, the largest exchanges announced they won't exchange proceeds from these addresses. It may still not be impossible to withdraw into fiat, but certainly it was harder. Eventually, there will be more regulation from US and other countries' bodies, some of it will benefit crypto holders, some inconvenience them some more. One example could be of a Government Body that oversees crypto fraud. If you had some coin stolen and you are able to prove they were yours and are unable to communicate with the party who took your coins, these assets can go into some form of public "coins on red notice list", where government puts them there, and exchanges can see the addresses and know not to accept or exchange these assets. If someone tries to, exchange can show them a notice information, instead of completing transaction. Another list government can maintain is "public call notice" (I'm just making these names up) similar to how public hearings are made. In this scenario, government can call up on an owner of some specific questionable coins to explain transactions behind. If no owner comes up in 30 days, these coins could be again put on "red notice" list. The bottom line is, since exchanges are regulated by governments, the governments will surely regulate even more. Ultimately because everything is transparent on a block chain, certain coins can become "dirty" just like money becomes tainted, and exchange or even possession of these coins can be made unlawful.
- acdha 5y ago
  > For a starters, its not Bitcoin fault that someone did not have last will, or did not include the keys or their crypto in the last will. It’s not Ford’s fault that someone didn’t drive safely, and yet they’re required to build cars with safety features. Bitcoin’s design ensures that these mistakes happen regularly, and most users end up paying a “I can’t believe it’s not a bank” exchange to hold their Bitcoin for them due to the many irrecoverable risks if you do it yourself.
- giaour 5y ago
  > For a starters, its not Bitcoin fault that someone did not have last will, or did not include the keys or their crypto in the last will. Since we can assume that some people will die without making arrangements to pass on their keys, then isn't it guaranteed that a non-inflationary cryptocurrency like BTC would eventually consist solely of lost, unreachable coins?
  - epolanski 5y ago
    No, but the reason would be simpler, the network dying because of low movement.
- largbae 5y ago
  I think what you're describing is a centralized body that can use due process to resolve disputes. 4 legs good 2 legs better?
- 01acheru 5y ago
  Since we cannot have an ever growing amount of BTC, you mean that in time more and more coins will be tainted? Assuming that frauds and heists and all that are constant but BTC generation is less than linear an ever growing percentage of coins will be tainted. Another thing: if someone steals money from me and I can prove it, and law can find him, and trial him, etc. I want the possibility to have my money back not some “coins on red notice”.
- headsoup 5y ago
  Sounds like you're just talking the banking system and cash. Anonymity + regulation. They already regulate credit and banks have systems for fraud. What again does Bitcoin solve for over this?

CaptainZapp 5y ago

> What is the bull case for $USD? What properties does it have that make it superior to currencies like $BTC in your opinion? That I can spend USD in just about any shop or for any transaction, legal or not. While crypto "currencies"? I'd say: not so much.

eric_cc 5y ago
This is a short term advantage that is quickly evaporating. There are crypto credit cards now that allow you to achieve the same effect. Assuming this advantage disappears, are there any other bull cases for $USD?
- squeaky-clean 5y ago
  I don't want a currency with a bull case. That means it discourages spending it in favor of holding it. I want a currency with an extremely slow bear case. Also my value of USD hasn't dropped 30% in the last month.
  - felipeko 5y ago
    It is a good thing to be encouraged to saving instead of spending. No one needs incentive to spend. You will spend if you have plenty to spend. Having a currency which gains in value will take you there.
    - 01acheru 5y ago
      > You will spend if you have plenty to spend. Having a currency which gains in value will take you there. That’s some pretty fanta-dreamy-economics. How can it possibly be true for everybody? Money from heaven?
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
    - Daishiman 5y ago

01acheru 5y ago

Maybe that you can buy bread with USD, or a house, or a car, or pay rent, or insurance, or gas, a coke on a vending machine, or stocks, or... well there are a lot of things you can do with USD that you cannot do with BTC right now.

eric_cc 5y ago
This advantage for $USD is already beginning to vanish. Assuming it does, are there any other reasons to be bullish $USD?
- 01acheru 5y ago
  First of all I’m not seeing this advantage “beginning to vanish”. Even assuming it completely disappears we still need to solve: - energy inefficiency of BTC - extremely low number of transactions per unit of time - a currency lacking the possibility of reversing transfers is not compatible with most legal systems - full traceability of my wallet transactions open to the public - volatility And those are the first I can think of while paying little attention because I’m watching a movie…
  - eric_cc 5y ago
    Okay but the question was: what’s the bull case for $USD?
    - 01acheru 5y ago
      We started from your question “What properties does it have that make it superior to currencies like $BTC in your opinion?”. Then you changed subject about being bullish when replying. So you must either decide: are we talking about currencies or about speculative assets? There are no reasons to be bullish about currencies, that’s not their purpose.
      - eric_cc 5y ago
        > There are no reasons to be bullish about currencies, that’s not their purpose. Whether you hold currencies, stocks, cryptos - these are all positions with various possible outcomes. A currency can become worthless through hyperinflation, for example. So yes, you absolutely should be sizing up your currency position and deciding whether it is to your advantage to hold it. You can say a currency bull case is that it’s stable representation of value. That thesis could play out or completely break down depending on how the government in control of the currency behaves themselves.

mcguire 5y ago

"What is the bull case for $USD?" Is Bitcoin a currency or an "investment"? (Here's a hint: you don't want a "bull case" for a currency.)

eric_cc 5y ago
> you don't want a "bull case" for a currency. Yes you do. Because currencies are a position to store value just like every other “investment”. Currencies can go bad and become literally worthless via hyperinflation, for example. And some currencies will hold their buying power better than others. To not consider whether your currency has a strong bull case… or whatever you want to call it… is basically blindly trusting it. That’s closer to faith and hope that logic.

epolanski 5y ago

Money has no properties or value. Both usd and bitcoin have an intrinsic value of zero. Unless you like staring at bills depicting national heroes, ofc. The reason you want money is that you know people around you want it and you can use it to acquire goods. Now, what makes USD a superior currency: - you don't need internet to use it - you don't need third party centralized unregulated services to use it (unless you want to run a full node) - you can exchange it with ease, in multiple formats. Give your daughter 0.0000000000045 bitcoins for lunch. - no fees for using it. - practically scales to infinity vs few hundreds transactions per minute. - doesn't require energy to run. The energy required by each transaction covers the needs (heating and transport included) of a family of 5 for days - very stable, I know how much things will cost a minute, hour or days from now, so my daughter eats even if whales are short squeezing markets by lunch time. - used mostly to buy services and goods vs never used to buy anything but other currencies. - inflationary, creates pressure to spend and invest rather than hoarding. Deflative currencies don't make sense to spend. Why would I buy X today at n bitcoins, if the deflative nature of bitcoin will make it more scarce and will make X cheaper. Why spend bitcoin today, if in few months there will be new highs and I can buy even more and so on. - de facto currency of international trade. Some countries like Russia try to do international trade in euro. What can have higher consensus? - 250 years of history - regulated through democratic means and under clear laws for the benefit of most; vs unregulated, mostly owned by few early anarco capitalists (i know people with thousands and thousands of bitcoin) and offshore scams. Basically very few people own most of bitcoins there are out there, very few people control most of the network. I think the list can get infinitely longer but it gets boring.