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Union Pacific Addresses LA Cargo Thefts; Problem Requires Collective Effort

90 points by samename 5y ago

vondur 5y ago
Here's the problem from the article: "Criminals are caught and arrested, turned over to local authorities for booking, arraigned before the local courts, charges are reduced to a misdemeanor or petty offense, and the criminal is released after paying a nominal fine,” said the letter. “These individuals are generally caught and released back onto the streets in less than 24 hours. Even with all the arrests made, the no-cash bail policy and extended time frame for suspects to appear in court is causing re-victimization to Union Pacific by these same criminals.” The letter goes on to say criminals are boasting to Union Pacific officers that charges will be pled down to simple trespassing – which bears no serious consequence."
- tomlockwood 5y ago
  America has the highest incarceration rate in the world, though. Maybe the issues with American society aren't ones that can be addressed with more arrests and jail terms?
  - selectodude 5y ago
    The causes of crime is a different discussion from the crimes being caused. There should be more a holistic approach towards the causes but simply deciding not to prosecute is not the way out of this.
    - tomlockwood 5y ago
      But, is prosecution truly the way out of this? It doesn't appear to have been effective at preventing plenty of other crimes, in America. Why would it be any more effective in this case?
      - legutierr 5y ago
        If it’s the same criminals committing the same crime shortly after being released, keeping them in jail will reduce the opportunity they have to commit the crime again, at least for as long as they remain in jail.
        tomlockwood 5y ago
        I've absolutely heard this rhetoric about short jail terms before, though, about any number of crimes. Is there data to back this up?
        ridaj 5y ago
        I think the point was that the number of thefts made outside the prison by people who are in the prison is necessarily zero, unless they escaped. Do you need data to be convinced of this?
        tomlockwood 5y ago
        They're in prison until they aren't and at that point they may steal enough to make up for the stealing the imprisoning prevented.
        Swizec 5y ago
        The point of adding a 10s delay on incorrect password attempts isn’t to make it impossible to brute force passwords, it’s to slow an attacker from 600 tries per minute down to 6/min. This is enough of a deterrence to make brute forcing impractical. If you have to wait 7 days between train robberies instead of 24 hours, that’s a big hit to the business model. Maybe enough to make it impractical.
        tomlockwood 5y ago
        Your analogy doesn't really help because they aren't just "delayed". Money is wasted on incarcerating them, they come in close contact with criminals, and it makes their ability to get a job, lower.
    - markvdb 5y ago
      The Norwegian system is capital intensive, but good at preventing recidivism.[0][1][2] Evidence based policy works. Even starting the transition to evidence based policy in the US would be hard though. [0] https://scholarlycommons.law.emory.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1177 https://scholarlycommons.law.emory.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?a... [1] https://www.bbc.com/news/stories-48885846 https://www.bbc.com/news/stories-48885846 [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_in_Norway https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_in_Norway
      - ambrozk 5y ago
        As you say, going from what we have to what they have will be no simple matter. It would take decades of reform at the very least. In the meantime, it doesn't make sense to just stop improning people for minor crimes.
      - usbqk 5y ago
        A system that works in a country won’t work in another country that is culturally different, more heterogenous, etc.
        markvdb 5y ago
        It might not work as well, but there are certainly useful hints to be taken. At a bare minimum, it proves that recidivism is not laws-of-physics unavoidable.
  - henning 5y ago
    how would you feel if something like this personally affected you? say you depended on critical prescription drugs to be mailed to you and thieves were robbing the postal service, stealing your medication. what then?
    - tomlockwood 5y ago
      I'd want to reduce the crime rate. But hey, maybe a way of doing that is to reduce the price of medication and therefore its resale value, somehow. Maybe that's another topic we don't really want to interrogate here, though. :)
      - blackearl 5y ago
        Ripping and robbing a freight train is not the same situation at all. Things that aren't found as valuable are being tossed along the tracks.
      - creato 5y ago
  - twofornone 5y ago
    How do you solve the problem of a subculture which glorifies crime? These people don't care about your rules. They take pride in breaking them. They are not interested in your American Dream or your ideas of educational opportunity. Taking advantage of opportunity (or altruism) is an achievement, a victory over perceived weakness. Altruism is a respectable virtue, but forcing altruisum upon others at the hands of barbarism is tyrrany.
    - deanCommie 5y ago
      You start by disconfirming your beliefs. What is the American Dream? Is it a reality? Is it available to. The people in this subculture you're talking about (curious to hear more about this subculture)? Are the educational opportunities? Is crime glorification the cause, or the effect of a deeper problem? Why does this happen in the richest country in the world? Is it a bug or is it a feature? If it's a feature, what does it imply about those that are able to reach monumental amounts of wealth in this same society?
    - trophycase 5y ago
      Underrated comment. There's simply too many people who don't care at all about the rules or about participating in a functional society.
  - skinkestek 5y ago
    AFAIK the incarceration rate problems in US have more to do with locking up non violent drug users, the three strikes policy and probably other miguided efforts than with locking up actual thieves, robbers and murderers. But I am not an American.
    - tomlockwood 5y ago
      I've read some interesting things about this idea: https://www.prisonpolicy.org/reports/pie2020.html https://www.prisonpolicy.org/reports/pie2020.html > It’s true that police, prosecutors, and judges continue to punish people harshly for nothing more than drug possession. Drug offenses still account for the incarceration of almost half a million people, and nonviolent drug convictions remain a defining feature of the federal prison system. Police still make over 1 million drug possession arrests each year, many of which lead to prison sentences. Drug arrests continue to give residents of over-policed communities criminal records, hurting their employment prospects and increasing the likelihood of longer sentences for any future offenses. > Nevertheless, 4 out of 5 people in prison or jail are locked up for something other than a drug offense — either a more serious offense or an even less serious one. To end mass incarceration, we will have to change how our society and our justice system responds to crimes more serious than drug possession. We must also stop incarcerating people for behaviors that are even more benign.
  - VictorPath 5y ago
    America's incarceration rate is over nine times that of a country like Denmark's. You see the comments here from Americans - even more people need to be incarcerated, the DAs are too soft. People elect these DAs because they are tired of police brazenly murdering people on video and locking everyone up.
    - xyzzyz 5y ago
      US also has, like, heck of a lot more crime than Denmark. We don’t arrest and jail people for the hell of it.
      - beefield 5y ago
        And based on comments here, it seems that many of you guys seriously think that a solution is... arresting and jailing more people? Somehow brings mind the quote about doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. And from my European point of view, the three strikes thing is pretty much a definition of jailing people for the hell of it.
        throwaway1777 5y ago
        If someone committed the same crime in Europe you would put them in jail too, would you not?
        beefield 5y ago
        Context was how to reduce crime, not whether a specific crime should yield jail time.
        xyzzyz 5y ago
        Yes, that’s how the European country I moved to US from deals with crime. US is insanely lenient toward petty criminals compared to Europe.
    - throwaway1777 5y ago
      If someone robbed a train in Denmark would they go to jail? No one is saying we shouldn’t find ways to prevent people from committing crimes in the first place, but this experiment in california with having no consequences isn’t working, that’s pretty obvious.
  - throwaway73838 5y ago
    Did you not see the throngs of people stealing from trains? The solution here is not to remove disincentives for antisocial behavior. That would be like trying to put out a fire with gasoline.
    - tomlockwood 5y ago
      Do these measures actually disincentivize antisocial behavior over the life of the subject?
      - throwaway73838 5y ago
        I mean take the extremes. If there was no penalty, would people be more inclined to steal? What if the penalty was the most extreme? If you look to Singapore, you’ll find a country with very rough penalties by western standards. Yet that translates to almost no crime.
        tomlockwood 5y ago
        I can also think of plenty of countries that have even more severe punishments for criminals, that do have a lot of crime, though. Which just leads back to the idea that increased punishment isn't necessarily the solution here.
        throwaway73838 5y ago
        Well, harsh penalties mean nothing if you have a corrupt and/or underfunded police/criminal justice system. But if you combine a highly efficient and regulated justice system with proper funding and harsh penalties, you will soon have no crime. The problem of course, is people who will advocate for “criminal rights” instead of the rights of victims.
        tomlockwood 5y ago
        > Well, harsh penalties mean nothing if you have a corrupt and/or underfunded police/criminal justice system. Interesting... This sounds like America, to me. > The problem of course, is people who will advocate for “criminal rights” instead of the rights of victims. Unless the justice system is corrupt, right?
  - ridaj 5y ago
    I think it's a very good point but you also aren't going to convince a lot of people without offering concrete solutions to the immediate issue. What are they, in your opinion? I personally think if the company kept its trains moving and/or had better fences, it might prevent the thefts in the first place. But if your idea is let's not prosecute theft and focus on reducing economic inequalities, I'm not sure I buy it!
    - tomlockwood 5y ago
      You hit the nail on the head there - lets not smash the "more arrests and harsher punishments UP doesn't have to pay for (what a coincidence)" button, immediately, right?
  - PixyMisa 5y ago
    Stop jailing people for simple possession of drugs. Start jailing people for repeated burglary.
- johnnyo 5y ago
  One thing that sounded weird in that sentence, who is doing the arresting? Company employees? Do railway employees have arresting authority?
  - nathanaldensr 5y ago
    They have a police force. https://www.up.com/aboutup/community/safety/special_agents/index.htm https://www.up.com/aboutup/community/safety/special_agents/i...
    - dsjfladjsfkl 5y ago
    - stephen_g 5y ago
      Having many Federal Government departments having their own police forces (like "Postal Police") is weird enough to somebody from another country like me, but the idea of a private company being able to have their own police force is a whole another level - incredible and bizarre...
      - someguydave 5y ago
        The railroads in the US are pretty heavily regulated by various US government departments. It makes sense to have specialized police for the needs of the railroad.
        justsomehnguy 5y ago
        > specialized police for the needs of the railroad It's understandable, but for the most Europeans such police force should be a part of a government or a municipal authority, not a private one.
        FateOfNations 5y ago
        In Europe the railroad would also be part of a government entity....
- throwawaysea 5y ago
  This is exactly what happens in virtually all cities with progressive “restorative justice” policies. Many of these cities have district attorneys (city prosecution office) who effectively excuse crime by removing consequences such as jail time or fines. Many are funded by George Soros’s nonprofits, who are trying to normalize this type of criminal justice policy across the nation [1]. Unfortunately, this removal of deterrents induces additional crime - both in terms of frequency and severity from existing criminals but also in attracting criminals from other areas to these locations. I’ll dive into Seattle as an example of what happens. There was a great documentary made about Seattle’s chronic issue with repeat offenders cycling through the system without consequence or deterrence, titled “Seattle is Dying” [2]. One of the people featured in this documentary, Travis Berge, racked up over 100 police contacts, dozens of civil infractions, 47 criminal cases, and an attempted rape, just in the five years he lived in Seattle. He was repeatedly released and continued to victimize others. A year after this documentary came out, shortly after CHAZ (the infamous “autonomous zone”) and in the same park that was part of CHAZ, he ended up murdering his girlfriend. Former judges and politicians commented that this entire saga was preventable [3] but neither current politicians, nor the city attorney, nor activists who attacked this documentary admitted their fault. Instead they continued with the same policy of not prosecuting crimes. Downtown businesses in Seattle have repeatedly mentioned complained about the continued scourge of widespread shoplifting, loitering, trash, and other problems of blight that have made business difficult in Seattle. It got so bad that businesses were simply giving up on reporting crimes, just like private citizens have also given up [4]. Because the city ignored these issues, the business associations did their own work and put out a deeply-research report covering the pattern of prolific repeat offenders, titled “System Failure” [5]. This report was ignored by local politicians and attacked by progressive activists, journalists, and the homeless-industrial complex local to Seattle. The business association put out another similar report titled “System Failure 2” six months later [6], but it too resulted in no action from the city, simply because acknowledging the problem would be an indictment of the political ideology governing Seattle. Fast forward to 2020 and there was widespread lawlessness spurred on by the George Floyd incident. Extremist activists repeatedly provoked/attacked the police, destroyed businesses, set fires, and engaged in other crimes daily (like blocking highways). There were also notable incidents like CHAZ, which was a display of brazen contempt for law and order. At the end of this year, it came to light that the city attorney had removed all consequences even for the very few that were arrested [7]. The lack of cooperation from the city attorney’s office (in holding arrested suspects accountable), threats of defunding from an activist city council, and general lawlessness led to hundreds of police officers quitting [8], further exacerbating all the issues with crime. All these things add up slowly over time. It’s hard to notice the deterioration “live” as it is happening, but if you compare Seattle from 10 years ago to what it is today, the change is truly astonishing and depressing. To me, the consequence of not enforcing the law was always obvious, but I am guilty of not putting in an effort to speak up against what was happening. Most people who disagreed with what was happening also laughed it off, and didn’t take it seriously. This issue in LA with the railroads could just as easily happen in SF, Portland, Seattle, or other locations that have adopted a similar approach to managing crime. 1. https://www.politico.com/story/2016/08/george-soros-criminal-justice-reform-227519 https://www.politico.com/story/2016/08/george-soros-criminal... 2. https://komonews.com/news/local/komo-news-special-seattle-is-dying https://komonews.com/news/local/komo-news-special-seattle-is... 3. https://mynorthwest.com/2169605/retired-seattle-judge-berge-murder-preventable/ https://mynorthwest.com/2169605/retired-seattle-judge-berge-... 4. https://mynorthwest.com/1538741/uwajimaya-seattle-prolific-offenders/ https://mynorthwest.com/1538741/uwajimaya-seattle-prolific-o... 5. https://downtownseattle.org/files/advocacy/system-failure-prolific-offender-report-feb-2019.pdf https://downtownseattle.org/files/advocacy/system-failure-pr... 6. https://downtownseattle.org/files/advocacy/System-Failure-Part-2-Declines-Delays-and-Dismissals-Sept-2019.pdf https://downtownseattle.org/files/advocacy/System-Failure-Pa... 7. https://komonews.com/news/local/city-attorney-charges-brought-in-8-out-of-261-protest-related-arrests-in-seattle https://komonews.com/news/local/city-attorney-charges-brough... 8. https://www.king5.com/article/news/local/seattle/spd-warns-of-staffing-crisis-after-66-more-officers-leave/281-040a65b1-3165-4f24-8652-a5d10860aac7 https://www.king5.com/article/news/local/seattle/spd-warns-o...
- EricDeb 5y ago
  I'm not at all against these people being released after 24 hours on a misdemeanor. However if it's the 2nd, 3rd, or 4th time you've been caught stealing packages from trains the punishment should definitely be increased. Is that not how it works?
  - throwawaysea 5y ago
    No, unfortunately that’s not how it works at all. See my comment elsewhere in this discussion (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29963965 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29963965) for examples of how it actually plays out.
    - coin 5y ago
      Can’t see your comment, it’s been flagged/removed/censored
      - throwawaysea 5y ago
        That’s unfortunate. I did notice my comment had a little notice saying ‘flagged’ almost immediately after I posted it, but I thought that people could still access flagged content with a direct link. I’m not sure how these secret features of the website work.
        iancarroll 5y ago
        Your early-on blame towards George Soros (a magnet for conspiracy theorists, and with an article from 2016) does not help your comment. It’s fine to disagree with progressive prosecutors, but support for them has not been growing from a single person’s political campaign contributions.
        throwawaysea 5y ago
        But that is also why I included a source for that note about Soros in my original comment. Commentary on George Soros is often labeled as conspiracy theory, but the reality is that organizations (PACs) funded by him have made campaign contributions to the very DAs that have implemented restorative justice policies. This isn’t a conspiracy theory - election law requires public disclosure of their campaign contributions. Both left-leaning (https://www.latimes.com/local/california/la-me-prosecutor-campaign-20180523-story.html https://www.latimes.com/local/california/la-me-prosecutor-ca...) and right-learning (https://nypost.com/2021/12/16/how-george-soros-funded-progressive-das-behind-us-crime-surge/ https://nypost.com/2021/12/16/how-george-soros-funded-progre...) news outlets have covered Soros’s investments in getting progressive DAs elected.
- millzlane 5y ago
  There is no proof that anyone they arrested had their charges plead down. The mayor, govenor, and DA says they're charging criminals for felony crimes. So who do we believe?
  - nemothekid 5y ago
    >There is no proof that anyone they arrested had their charges plead down. Yes, the same story exists in San Francisco, and it's difficult to ascertain, at the surface level who is telling the truth. The DA says police isn't bringing them cases, and the police days the DA isn't prosectuting. Meanwhile the media runs with the story that "billionaire progressives" (the oxymoron that flies over everyone's head) are ruining west coast cities.
    - ya_throw 5y ago
      > "billionaire progressives" (the oxymoron that flies over everyone's head) The term accurately conveys the hypocrisy at the heart of US "Progressivism".
zamfi 5y ago
*UP, not Up This is about Union Pacific, the railroad.
- donw 5y ago
slivanes 5y ago
https://youtu.be/nQrTORBS-co https://youtu.be/nQrTORBS-co Terrible looking ghetto, video of the result of train looting.
- tjr225 5y ago
  You’d be amazed how much of our country resembles a third world if you look close enough. This includes virtually any city you can think of.
  - smabie 5y ago
    idk man, having lived in some third world countries for extended periods of time, I don't agree at all. Sure there's some really shitty parts of America, but the kind of living conditions you see everyday in 3rd world countries would be something that would be very unusual to see in America. I've described the living conditions of the very poor in America to locals in these 3rd world countries and the universal consensus among the locals is that life in America is pretty great in comparison.
    - beefield 5y ago
      There is large variation in the affluence of third world countries. And there are large portions of US and large portions of the more affluent third world countries that are comparable in many ways (e.g. infrastructure) - in my experience, that is.
  - swebs 5y ago
clavicat 5y ago
paul7986 5y ago
Social justice (“While we understand the well-intended social justice goals of the policy...”) doesn't seem to be working with the smash and grab thefts and now this seen in California. Is this same type of crime activities happening in other cities and do they too have the same lax laws?
- throwawaysea 5y ago
  It is definitely happening in other cities. See my other comment (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29963965 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29963965) for an example.
baskethead 5y ago
Gascon is the type of DA that you would see in a Batman movie, that is working for the villains. The decisions he has made on behalf of the criminals is shocking. It's as if he's trying to do as much damage as possible. The one that drew the line for me was the machete attack in Malibu by a homeless person where someone lost an eye and was disfigured. The assailant had months previously attacked someone with a knife, but Gascon only charged him with a misdemeanor so he was out and about. As far as I'm concerned, Gascon is working with the criminals to maximize their damage on our society. The same is going for Boudin, but it seems that he will lose his job soon.
- jeffbee 5y ago
  At first I thought you were confused across time and space, but apparently Gascon packed it up and went south and became the DA of LA County? WTF?
  - refurb 5y ago
    Yup, SF "upgraded" to Chesa Boudin and Gascon went South to LA to make it look more like SF.
topspin 5y ago
While one can appreciate the candid and not at all surprising UP explanation as to the effective abrogation of justice in our coastal la la land, this is also a cop-out: train looting isn't some unexpected phenomena that started earlier this month; here is video of this happening in Chicago at least two years ago[1]. These operators are not taking the necessary measures to protect cargo; they're wallowing in the hope that this is an aberration because any other approach will cost money. Unfortunately our increasingly 'low trust society' has a cost and UP et al. need to figure this out and adapt accordingly. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hB6lIqYoamo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hB6lIqYoamo
- rdtsc 5y ago
  What could they do? They increased the arrests (they have that authority, interestingly enough) and surveillance efforts, but the people they catch are back out on the street within 24 hours, just in time to catch the next train. Perhaps, alter their schedule to ensure the train never stops in certain areas so there is no chance to hop on and open the locks?
  - anovikov 5y ago
    How do they get out so quickly? Also i think in this particular case (since thefts are happening on private, fenced territory) it's easier to fix by a small adjustments in law, essentially allowing guards to shoot to kill on sight - so that thieves are not arrested, just eliminated. Normally that wouldn't be a possibility because of chances of mistakes, but here's there's no way to make a mistake - anyone within the fenced area not wearing a uniform and a service ID can be shot to kill on sight and that will be it. Put appropriate markings on fences.
    - rdtsc 5y ago
      Due to the LA’s “progressive” prosecutorial policies. It’s seemed to be designed to artificially lower the crime and incarceration stats. The train company actually runs it’s own police force. So it can arrest these people. Then they turn them over to the local authorities, which often doesn’t even book them. Some just pay a nominal fine like they might for speeding.
rdtsc 5y ago
> Union Pacific agents have made hundreds of arrests, but less than half are booked > charges are reduced to a misdemeanor or petty offense, and the criminal is released after paying a nominal fine So how does that affect statics? If they are not booked, and charges are dropped to a petty offense, it would look like the crime stats are trending down and the area is improving. “Look, burglaries and serious offenses are going, our policy is working so well!”
- fosk 5y ago
  And when this behavior is being translated to more traditional city crime where residents typically are the ones calling the police for help, it also has the effect of demoralizing the factual reporting of such crimes (because "nothing happens anyways"), further decreasing the statistics which just become fake. Then fast forward a few years, you end up in a situation like in San Francisco, where crime is clearly up to the roof everywhere you look, but you have local politicians saying - with confidence - that it is down instead.
  - rdtsc 5y ago
    I always imagine the DA people winking and nodding to each when they discuss the exciting downward trend in serious crimes due to their policy. They’d never put it “on paper”, so to speak, but they know exactly what’s going on.
    - fosk 5y ago
  - fmajid 5y ago
    The LA DA was previously DA of SF, and he was the main proponent of Prop. 47 that essentially decriminalized property crimes under $1000 so yes, he has form.
    - muzz 5y ago
      Wrong. Misdemeanors are crimes
Osmose 5y ago
I'd love to see how much revenue was lost from these thefts vs the average taxpayer cost of imprisoning all the involved folks for however long Union Pacific wishes they were locked up for. Ignoring the obvious slippery slope / long term effect objection, it'd be wild if it was actually cheaper to just pay the losses back and prosecute no one.
- nitrogen 5y ago
  One problem with this approach, even if it's true, is that when you combine overprosecution of victimless crimes with rampant victim-ful crime, everyone loses respect for the system.
- londgine 5y ago
  My guess is that in most cases it would be cheaper (in the short term) to simply have a train employee stand in from of the train distributing money for the robbers to walk away. Of course, long term that would have an awful ROI. The robbers would return every time, and more robbers would join them.
  - Osmose 5y ago
    If you squint and change who is giving out the money this kinda looks like universal basic income
- ApolloFortyNine 5y ago
  Using this same logic, why on earth should you ever pay for something less than $10? Maybe even $20. Just having the cop drive to the store to talk to you is going to cost more than that. Yea I know, this a bit facetious, this is essentially already the case.
- imgabe 5y ago
  The logical conclusion then would be that it is no longer economically viable to produce and sell the products on those trains, including things like EpiPens, so we simply would not have them. If that's what we want, then that's the direction we're headed. Want to buy something for less than $1000? Too bad, it's not worth producing since it can be stolen with impunity.
drewcoo 5y ago
[flagged]
exportgoldman2 5y ago
throwaway73838 5y ago
Anyone who believes that more severe penalties and a more potent criminal justice system has never been to Singapore. There’s a reason they have almost no crime there.
newbie789 5y ago
siruncledrew 5y ago
The longer this problem goes on at this level of severity, the bigger of a shitstorm the UP and DTLA are going to face. Customers, companies, and the government are going to be pissed if trade and distribution of important supplies gets impacted because UP and DTLA are playing the passive blame-game and not stepping up to put resources to address the problem. They can lie and say they are doing something, but where’s the effort when there’s videos of this happening and just a ton of garbage all over the place. This is turning in an environmental disaster at this point as well.
pea 5y ago
Showing my naivety, but could someone explain to me how these sort of things are becoming partisan left/right issues? I am based in Britain. I'm presuming London's mayor (Sadiq Khan) and many others comparable figures are significantly more left-leaning -- both economically and socially -- than their US counterparts in these cities. Yet, I can't imagine the London Metropolitan police would not come down on this sort of thing like a ton of bricks. It's not like socialist or communist countries haven't prosecuted or penalised theft historically. Similarly, I keep reading on Twitter that the left in the US wants to ban calculus. How is this a leftist policy? I am pretty sure Soviet Russia streamed students based on ability.
pmdulaney 5y ago
'The letter urged the District Attorney to reconsider the policy applied to these cases: “While we understand the well-intended social justice goals of the policy, we need our justice system to support our partnership efforts with local law enforcement, hold these criminals accountable, and most important, help protect our employees and the critical local and national rail network.”' I don't understand the "well-intended social justice goals of the policy". And I don't think Union Pacific does either; they are forced by the prevailing social justice social norms to say that they "understand" these goals.

90 points by samename 5y ago

Here's the problem from the article: "Criminals are caught and arrested, turned over to local authorities for booking, arraigned before the local courts, charges are reduced to a misdemeanor or petty offense, and the criminal is released after paying a nominal fine,” said the letter. “These individuals are generally caught and released back onto the streets in less than 24 hours. Even with all the arrests made, the no-cash bail policy and extended time frame for suspects to appear in court is causing re-victimization to Union Pacific by these same criminals.” The letter goes on to say criminals are boasting to Union Pacific officers that charges will be pled down to simple trespassing – which bears no serious consequence."

tomlockwood 5y ago
America has the highest incarceration rate in the world, though. Maybe the issues with American society aren't ones that can be addressed with more arrests and jail terms?
- selectodude 5y ago
  The causes of crime is a different discussion from the crimes being caused. There should be more a holistic approach towards the causes but simply deciding not to prosecute is not the way out of this.
  - tomlockwood 5y ago
    But, is prosecution truly the way out of this? It doesn't appear to have been effective at preventing plenty of other crimes, in America. Why would it be any more effective in this case?
    - legutierr 5y ago
      If it’s the same criminals committing the same crime shortly after being released, keeping them in jail will reduce the opportunity they have to commit the crime again, at least for as long as they remain in jail.
      - tomlockwood 5y ago
        I've absolutely heard this rhetoric about short jail terms before, though, about any number of crimes. Is there data to back this up?
        ridaj 5y ago
        I think the point was that the number of thefts made outside the prison by people who are in the prison is necessarily zero, unless they escaped. Do you need data to be convinced of this?
        tomlockwood 5y ago
        They're in prison until they aren't and at that point they may steal enough to make up for the stealing the imprisoning prevented.
        Swizec 5y ago
        The point of adding a 10s delay on incorrect password attempts isn’t to make it impossible to brute force passwords, it’s to slow an attacker from 600 tries per minute down to 6/min. This is enough of a deterrence to make brute forcing impractical. If you have to wait 7 days between train robberies instead of 24 hours, that’s a big hit to the business model. Maybe enough to make it impractical.
        tomlockwood 5y ago
        Your analogy doesn't really help because they aren't just "delayed". Money is wasted on incarcerating them, they come in close contact with criminals, and it makes their ability to get a job, lower.
  - markvdb 5y ago
    The Norwegian system is capital intensive, but good at preventing recidivism.[0][1][2] Evidence based policy works. Even starting the transition to evidence based policy in the US would be hard though. [0] https://scholarlycommons.law.emory.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1177 https://scholarlycommons.law.emory.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?a... [1] https://www.bbc.com/news/stories-48885846 https://www.bbc.com/news/stories-48885846 [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_in_Norway https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_in_Norway
    - ambrozk 5y ago
      As you say, going from what we have to what they have will be no simple matter. It would take decades of reform at the very least. In the meantime, it doesn't make sense to just stop improning people for minor crimes.
    - usbqk 5y ago
      A system that works in a country won’t work in another country that is culturally different, more heterogenous, etc.
      - markvdb 5y ago
        It might not work as well, but there are certainly useful hints to be taken. At a bare minimum, it proves that recidivism is not laws-of-physics unavoidable.
- henning 5y ago
  how would you feel if something like this personally affected you? say you depended on critical prescription drugs to be mailed to you and thieves were robbing the postal service, stealing your medication. what then?
  - tomlockwood 5y ago
    I'd want to reduce the crime rate. But hey, maybe a way of doing that is to reduce the price of medication and therefore its resale value, somehow. Maybe that's another topic we don't really want to interrogate here, though. :)
    - blackearl 5y ago
      Ripping and robbing a freight train is not the same situation at all. Things that aren't found as valuable are being tossed along the tracks.
    - creato 5y ago
- twofornone 5y ago
  How do you solve the problem of a subculture which glorifies crime? These people don't care about your rules. They take pride in breaking them. They are not interested in your American Dream or your ideas of educational opportunity. Taking advantage of opportunity (or altruism) is an achievement, a victory over perceived weakness. Altruism is a respectable virtue, but forcing altruisum upon others at the hands of barbarism is tyrrany.
  - deanCommie 5y ago
    You start by disconfirming your beliefs. What is the American Dream? Is it a reality? Is it available to. The people in this subculture you're talking about (curious to hear more about this subculture)? Are the educational opportunities? Is crime glorification the cause, or the effect of a deeper problem? Why does this happen in the richest country in the world? Is it a bug or is it a feature? If it's a feature, what does it imply about those that are able to reach monumental amounts of wealth in this same society?
  - trophycase 5y ago
    Underrated comment. There's simply too many people who don't care at all about the rules or about participating in a functional society.
- skinkestek 5y ago
  AFAIK the incarceration rate problems in US have more to do with locking up non violent drug users, the three strikes policy and probably other miguided efforts than with locking up actual thieves, robbers and murderers. But I am not an American.
  - tomlockwood 5y ago
    I've read some interesting things about this idea: https://www.prisonpolicy.org/reports/pie2020.html https://www.prisonpolicy.org/reports/pie2020.html > It’s true that police, prosecutors, and judges continue to punish people harshly for nothing more than drug possession. Drug offenses still account for the incarceration of almost half a million people, and nonviolent drug convictions remain a defining feature of the federal prison system. Police still make over 1 million drug possession arrests each year, many of which lead to prison sentences. Drug arrests continue to give residents of over-policed communities criminal records, hurting their employment prospects and increasing the likelihood of longer sentences for any future offenses. > Nevertheless, 4 out of 5 people in prison or jail are locked up for something other than a drug offense — either a more serious offense or an even less serious one. To end mass incarceration, we will have to change how our society and our justice system responds to crimes more serious than drug possession. We must also stop incarcerating people for behaviors that are even more benign.
- VictorPath 5y ago
  America's incarceration rate is over nine times that of a country like Denmark's. You see the comments here from Americans - even more people need to be incarcerated, the DAs are too soft. People elect these DAs because they are tired of police brazenly murdering people on video and locking everyone up.
  - xyzzyz 5y ago
    US also has, like, heck of a lot more crime than Denmark. We don’t arrest and jail people for the hell of it.
    - beefield 5y ago
      And based on comments here, it seems that many of you guys seriously think that a solution is... arresting and jailing more people? Somehow brings mind the quote about doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. And from my European point of view, the three strikes thing is pretty much a definition of jailing people for the hell of it.
      - throwaway1777 5y ago
        If someone committed the same crime in Europe you would put them in jail too, would you not?
        beefield 5y ago
        Context was how to reduce crime, not whether a specific crime should yield jail time.
      - xyzzyz 5y ago
        Yes, that’s how the European country I moved to US from deals with crime. US is insanely lenient toward petty criminals compared to Europe.
  - throwaway1777 5y ago
    If someone robbed a train in Denmark would they go to jail? No one is saying we shouldn’t find ways to prevent people from committing crimes in the first place, but this experiment in california with having no consequences isn’t working, that’s pretty obvious.
- throwaway73838 5y ago
  Did you not see the throngs of people stealing from trains? The solution here is not to remove disincentives for antisocial behavior. That would be like trying to put out a fire with gasoline.
  - tomlockwood 5y ago
    Do these measures actually disincentivize antisocial behavior over the life of the subject?
    - throwaway73838 5y ago
      I mean take the extremes. If there was no penalty, would people be more inclined to steal? What if the penalty was the most extreme? If you look to Singapore, you’ll find a country with very rough penalties by western standards. Yet that translates to almost no crime.
      - tomlockwood 5y ago
        I can also think of plenty of countries that have even more severe punishments for criminals, that do have a lot of crime, though. Which just leads back to the idea that increased punishment isn't necessarily the solution here.
        throwaway73838 5y ago
        Well, harsh penalties mean nothing if you have a corrupt and/or underfunded police/criminal justice system. But if you combine a highly efficient and regulated justice system with proper funding and harsh penalties, you will soon have no crime. The problem of course, is people who will advocate for “criminal rights” instead of the rights of victims.
        tomlockwood 5y ago
        > Well, harsh penalties mean nothing if you have a corrupt and/or underfunded police/criminal justice system. Interesting... This sounds like America, to me. > The problem of course, is people who will advocate for “criminal rights” instead of the rights of victims. Unless the justice system is corrupt, right?
- ridaj 5y ago
  I think it's a very good point but you also aren't going to convince a lot of people without offering concrete solutions to the immediate issue. What are they, in your opinion? I personally think if the company kept its trains moving and/or had better fences, it might prevent the thefts in the first place. But if your idea is let's not prosecute theft and focus on reducing economic inequalities, I'm not sure I buy it!
  - tomlockwood 5y ago
    You hit the nail on the head there - lets not smash the "more arrests and harsher punishments UP doesn't have to pay for (what a coincidence)" button, immediately, right?
- PixyMisa 5y ago
  Stop jailing people for simple possession of drugs. Start jailing people for repeated burglary.
johnnyo 5y ago
One thing that sounded weird in that sentence, who is doing the arresting? Company employees? Do railway employees have arresting authority?
- nathanaldensr 5y ago
  They have a police force. https://www.up.com/aboutup/community/safety/special_agents/index.htm https://www.up.com/aboutup/community/safety/special_agents/i...
  - dsjfladjsfkl 5y ago
  - stephen_g 5y ago
    Having many Federal Government departments having their own police forces (like "Postal Police") is weird enough to somebody from another country like me, but the idea of a private company being able to have their own police force is a whole another level - incredible and bizarre...
    - someguydave 5y ago
      The railroads in the US are pretty heavily regulated by various US government departments. It makes sense to have specialized police for the needs of the railroad.
      - justsomehnguy 5y ago
        > specialized police for the needs of the railroad It's understandable, but for the most Europeans such police force should be a part of a government or a municipal authority, not a private one.
        FateOfNations 5y ago
        In Europe the railroad would also be part of a government entity....
throwawaysea 5y ago
This is exactly what happens in virtually all cities with progressive “restorative justice” policies. Many of these cities have district attorneys (city prosecution office) who effectively excuse crime by removing consequences such as jail time or fines. Many are funded by George Soros’s nonprofits, who are trying to normalize this type of criminal justice policy across the nation [1]. Unfortunately, this removal of deterrents induces additional crime - both in terms of frequency and severity from existing criminals but also in attracting criminals from other areas to these locations. I’ll dive into Seattle as an example of what happens. There was a great documentary made about Seattle’s chronic issue with repeat offenders cycling through the system without consequence or deterrence, titled “Seattle is Dying” [2]. One of the people featured in this documentary, Travis Berge, racked up over 100 police contacts, dozens of civil infractions, 47 criminal cases, and an attempted rape, just in the five years he lived in Seattle. He was repeatedly released and continued to victimize others. A year after this documentary came out, shortly after CHAZ (the infamous “autonomous zone”) and in the same park that was part of CHAZ, he ended up murdering his girlfriend. Former judges and politicians commented that this entire saga was preventable [3] but neither current politicians, nor the city attorney, nor activists who attacked this documentary admitted their fault. Instead they continued with the same policy of not prosecuting crimes. Downtown businesses in Seattle have repeatedly mentioned complained about the continued scourge of widespread shoplifting, loitering, trash, and other problems of blight that have made business difficult in Seattle. It got so bad that businesses were simply giving up on reporting crimes, just like private citizens have also given up [4]. Because the city ignored these issues, the business associations did their own work and put out a deeply-research report covering the pattern of prolific repeat offenders, titled “System Failure” [5]. This report was ignored by local politicians and attacked by progressive activists, journalists, and the homeless-industrial complex local to Seattle. The business association put out another similar report titled “System Failure 2” six months later [6], but it too resulted in no action from the city, simply because acknowledging the problem would be an indictment of the political ideology governing Seattle. Fast forward to 2020 and there was widespread lawlessness spurred on by the George Floyd incident. Extremist activists repeatedly provoked/attacked the police, destroyed businesses, set fires, and engaged in other crimes daily (like blocking highways). There were also notable incidents like CHAZ, which was a display of brazen contempt for law and order. At the end of this year, it came to light that the city attorney had removed all consequences even for the very few that were arrested [7]. The lack of cooperation from the city attorney’s office (in holding arrested suspects accountable), threats of defunding from an activist city council, and general lawlessness led to hundreds of police officers quitting [8], further exacerbating all the issues with crime. All these things add up slowly over time. It’s hard to notice the deterioration “live” as it is happening, but if you compare Seattle from 10 years ago to what it is today, the change is truly astonishing and depressing. To me, the consequence of not enforcing the law was always obvious, but I am guilty of not putting in an effort to speak up against what was happening. Most people who disagreed with what was happening also laughed it off, and didn’t take it seriously. This issue in LA with the railroads could just as easily happen in SF, Portland, Seattle, or other locations that have adopted a similar approach to managing crime. 1. https://www.politico.com/story/2016/08/george-soros-criminal-justice-reform-227519 https://www.politico.com/story/2016/08/george-soros-criminal... 2. https://komonews.com/news/local/komo-news-special-seattle-is-dying https://komonews.com/news/local/komo-news-special-seattle-is... 3. https://mynorthwest.com/2169605/retired-seattle-judge-berge-murder-preventable/ https://mynorthwest.com/2169605/retired-seattle-judge-berge-... 4. https://mynorthwest.com/1538741/uwajimaya-seattle-prolific-offenders/ https://mynorthwest.com/1538741/uwajimaya-seattle-prolific-o... 5. https://downtownseattle.org/files/advocacy/system-failure-prolific-offender-report-feb-2019.pdf https://downtownseattle.org/files/advocacy/system-failure-pr... 6. https://downtownseattle.org/files/advocacy/System-Failure-Part-2-Declines-Delays-and-Dismissals-Sept-2019.pdf https://downtownseattle.org/files/advocacy/System-Failure-Pa... 7. https://komonews.com/news/local/city-attorney-charges-brought-in-8-out-of-261-protest-related-arrests-in-seattle https://komonews.com/news/local/city-attorney-charges-brough... 8. https://www.king5.com/article/news/local/seattle/spd-warns-of-staffing-crisis-after-66-more-officers-leave/281-040a65b1-3165-4f24-8652-a5d10860aac7 https://www.king5.com/article/news/local/seattle/spd-warns-o...
EricDeb 5y ago
I'm not at all against these people being released after 24 hours on a misdemeanor. However if it's the 2nd, 3rd, or 4th time you've been caught stealing packages from trains the punishment should definitely be increased. Is that not how it works?
- throwawaysea 5y ago
  No, unfortunately that’s not how it works at all. See my comment elsewhere in this discussion (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29963965 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29963965) for examples of how it actually plays out.
  - coin 5y ago
    Can’t see your comment, it’s been flagged/removed/censored
    - throwawaysea 5y ago
      That’s unfortunate. I did notice my comment had a little notice saying ‘flagged’ almost immediately after I posted it, but I thought that people could still access flagged content with a direct link. I’m not sure how these secret features of the website work.
      - iancarroll 5y ago
        Your early-on blame towards George Soros (a magnet for conspiracy theorists, and with an article from 2016) does not help your comment. It’s fine to disagree with progressive prosecutors, but support for them has not been growing from a single person’s political campaign contributions.
        throwawaysea 5y ago
        But that is also why I included a source for that note about Soros in my original comment. Commentary on George Soros is often labeled as conspiracy theory, but the reality is that organizations (PACs) funded by him have made campaign contributions to the very DAs that have implemented restorative justice policies. This isn’t a conspiracy theory - election law requires public disclosure of their campaign contributions. Both left-leaning (https://www.latimes.com/local/california/la-me-prosecutor-campaign-20180523-story.html https://www.latimes.com/local/california/la-me-prosecutor-ca...) and right-learning (https://nypost.com/2021/12/16/how-george-soros-funded-progressive-das-behind-us-crime-surge/ https://nypost.com/2021/12/16/how-george-soros-funded-progre...) news outlets have covered Soros’s investments in getting progressive DAs elected.
millzlane 5y ago
There is no proof that anyone they arrested had their charges plead down. The mayor, govenor, and DA says they're charging criminals for felony crimes. So who do we believe?
- nemothekid 5y ago
  >There is no proof that anyone they arrested had their charges plead down. Yes, the same story exists in San Francisco, and it's difficult to ascertain, at the surface level who is telling the truth. The DA says police isn't bringing them cases, and the police days the DA isn't prosectuting. Meanwhile the media runs with the story that "billionaire progressives" (the oxymoron that flies over everyone's head) are ruining west coast cities.
  - ya_throw 5y ago
    > "billionaire progressives" (the oxymoron that flies over everyone's head) The term accurately conveys the hypocrisy at the heart of US "Progressivism".

zamfi 5y ago

*UP, not Up This is about Union Pacific, the railroad.

donw 5y ago

slivanes 5y ago

https://youtu.be/nQrTORBS-co https://youtu.be/nQrTORBS-co Terrible looking ghetto, video of the result of train looting.

tjr225 5y ago
You’d be amazed how much of our country resembles a third world if you look close enough. This includes virtually any city you can think of.
- smabie 5y ago
  idk man, having lived in some third world countries for extended periods of time, I don't agree at all. Sure there's some really shitty parts of America, but the kind of living conditions you see everyday in 3rd world countries would be something that would be very unusual to see in America. I've described the living conditions of the very poor in America to locals in these 3rd world countries and the universal consensus among the locals is that life in America is pretty great in comparison.
  - beefield 5y ago
    There is large variation in the affluence of third world countries. And there are large portions of US and large portions of the more affluent third world countries that are comparable in many ways (e.g. infrastructure) - in my experience, that is.
- swebs 5y ago

clavicat 5y ago

paul7986 5y ago

Social justice (“While we understand the well-intended social justice goals of the policy...”) doesn't seem to be working with the smash and grab thefts and now this seen in California. Is this same type of crime activities happening in other cities and do they too have the same lax laws?

throwawaysea 5y ago
It is definitely happening in other cities. See my other comment (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29963965 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29963965) for an example.

baskethead 5y ago

Gascon is the type of DA that you would see in a Batman movie, that is working for the villains. The decisions he has made on behalf of the criminals is shocking. It's as if he's trying to do as much damage as possible. The one that drew the line for me was the machete attack in Malibu by a homeless person where someone lost an eye and was disfigured. The assailant had months previously attacked someone with a knife, but Gascon only charged him with a misdemeanor so he was out and about. As far as I'm concerned, Gascon is working with the criminals to maximize their damage on our society. The same is going for Boudin, but it seems that he will lose his job soon.

jeffbee 5y ago
At first I thought you were confused across time and space, but apparently Gascon packed it up and went south and became the DA of LA County? WTF?
- refurb 5y ago
  Yup, SF "upgraded" to Chesa Boudin and Gascon went South to LA to make it look more like SF.

topspin 5y ago

While one can appreciate the candid and not at all surprising UP explanation as to the effective abrogation of justice in our coastal la la land, this is also a cop-out: train looting isn't some unexpected phenomena that started earlier this month; here is video of this happening in Chicago at least two years ago[1]. These operators are not taking the necessary measures to protect cargo; they're wallowing in the hope that this is an aberration because any other approach will cost money. Unfortunately our increasingly 'low trust society' has a cost and UP et al. need to figure this out and adapt accordingly. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hB6lIqYoamo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hB6lIqYoamo

rdtsc 5y ago
What could they do? They increased the arrests (they have that authority, interestingly enough) and surveillance efforts, but the people they catch are back out on the street within 24 hours, just in time to catch the next train. Perhaps, alter their schedule to ensure the train never stops in certain areas so there is no chance to hop on and open the locks?
- anovikov 5y ago
  How do they get out so quickly? Also i think in this particular case (since thefts are happening on private, fenced territory) it's easier to fix by a small adjustments in law, essentially allowing guards to shoot to kill on sight - so that thieves are not arrested, just eliminated. Normally that wouldn't be a possibility because of chances of mistakes, but here's there's no way to make a mistake - anyone within the fenced area not wearing a uniform and a service ID can be shot to kill on sight and that will be it. Put appropriate markings on fences.
  - rdtsc 5y ago
    Due to the LA’s “progressive” prosecutorial policies. It’s seemed to be designed to artificially lower the crime and incarceration stats. The train company actually runs it’s own police force. So it can arrest these people. Then they turn them over to the local authorities, which often doesn’t even book them. Some just pay a nominal fine like they might for speeding.

rdtsc 5y ago

> Union Pacific agents have made hundreds of arrests, but less than half are booked > charges are reduced to a misdemeanor or petty offense, and the criminal is released after paying a nominal fine So how does that affect statics? If they are not booked, and charges are dropped to a petty offense, it would look like the crime stats are trending down and the area is improving. “Look, burglaries and serious offenses are going, our policy is working so well!”

fosk 5y ago
And when this behavior is being translated to more traditional city crime where residents typically are the ones calling the police for help, it also has the effect of demoralizing the factual reporting of such crimes (because "nothing happens anyways"), further decreasing the statistics which just become fake. Then fast forward a few years, you end up in a situation like in San Francisco, where crime is clearly up to the roof everywhere you look, but you have local politicians saying - with confidence - that it is down instead.
- rdtsc 5y ago
  I always imagine the DA people winking and nodding to each when they discuss the exciting downward trend in serious crimes due to their policy. They’d never put it “on paper”, so to speak, but they know exactly what’s going on.
  - fosk 5y ago
- fmajid 5y ago
  The LA DA was previously DA of SF, and he was the main proponent of Prop. 47 that essentially decriminalized property crimes under $1000 so yes, he has form.
  - muzz 5y ago
    Wrong. Misdemeanors are crimes

Osmose 5y ago

I'd love to see how much revenue was lost from these thefts vs the average taxpayer cost of imprisoning all the involved folks for however long Union Pacific wishes they were locked up for. Ignoring the obvious slippery slope / long term effect objection, it'd be wild if it was actually cheaper to just pay the losses back and prosecute no one.

nitrogen 5y ago
One problem with this approach, even if it's true, is that when you combine overprosecution of victimless crimes with rampant victim-ful crime, everyone loses respect for the system.
londgine 5y ago
My guess is that in most cases it would be cheaper (in the short term) to simply have a train employee stand in from of the train distributing money for the robbers to walk away. Of course, long term that would have an awful ROI. The robbers would return every time, and more robbers would join them.
- Osmose 5y ago
  If you squint and change who is giving out the money this kinda looks like universal basic income
ApolloFortyNine 5y ago
Using this same logic, why on earth should you ever pay for something less than $10? Maybe even $20. Just having the cop drive to the store to talk to you is going to cost more than that. Yea I know, this a bit facetious, this is essentially already the case.
imgabe 5y ago
The logical conclusion then would be that it is no longer economically viable to produce and sell the products on those trains, including things like EpiPens, so we simply would not have them. If that's what we want, then that's the direction we're headed. Want to buy something for less than $1000? Too bad, it's not worth producing since it can be stolen with impunity.

drewcoo 5y ago

[flagged]

exportgoldman2 5y ago

throwaway73838 5y ago

Anyone who believes that more severe penalties and a more potent criminal justice system has never been to Singapore. There’s a reason they have almost no crime there.

newbie789 5y ago

siruncledrew 5y ago

The longer this problem goes on at this level of severity, the bigger of a shitstorm the UP and DTLA are going to face. Customers, companies, and the government are going to be pissed if trade and distribution of important supplies gets impacted because UP and DTLA are playing the passive blame-game and not stepping up to put resources to address the problem. They can lie and say they are doing something, but where’s the effort when there’s videos of this happening and just a ton of garbage all over the place. This is turning in an environmental disaster at this point as well.

pea 5y ago

Showing my naivety, but could someone explain to me how these sort of things are becoming partisan left/right issues? I am based in Britain. I'm presuming London's mayor (Sadiq Khan) and many others comparable figures are significantly more left-leaning -- both economically and socially -- than their US counterparts in these cities. Yet, I can't imagine the London Metropolitan police would not come down on this sort of thing like a ton of bricks. It's not like socialist or communist countries haven't prosecuted or penalised theft historically. Similarly, I keep reading on Twitter that the left in the US wants to ban calculus. How is this a leftist policy? I am pretty sure Soviet Russia streamed students based on ability.

pmdulaney 5y ago

'The letter urged the District Attorney to reconsider the policy applied to these cases: “While we understand the well-intended social justice goals of the policy, we need our justice system to support our partnership efforts with local law enforcement, hold these criminals accountable, and most important, help protect our employees and the critical local and national rail network.”' I don't understand the "well-intended social justice goals of the policy". And I don't think Union Pacific does either; they are forced by the prevailing social justice social norms to say that they "understand" these goals.