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>Documents like these shouldn't be automatically processed, they should be reviewed by humans. That's very nice to think about but in the real world if people

>Documents like these shouldn't be automatically processed, they should be reviewed by humans. That's very nice to think about but in the real world if people don't match some exact keywords they get thrown away. HR is looking for "node.js" but you wrote it like "nodejs"? Though luck pal, bye. HR wants a "computer scientist" but you have a degree in "computer science"? Same, automatically discarded. If anything, a standard format would at least allow people to classify themselves/others correctly and without ambiguity.

WalterBright 5y ago
I asked a tech recruiter once how long he looked at a resume before deciding to trash it or file it. He said 2 seconds. He said he looked at about 1000 resumes a week. After a while, you can tell in 2 seconds if it is worth pursuing or not.
mcenedella 5y ago
This is not really an issue. Most resume ATSs enable fuzzy searching on stems and similar keywords.
dahart 5y ago
Your argument makes the case for human reviewers. The examples are a stretch though. I've never heard of anyone losing an interview due to their spelling of nodejs or computer science. I don't buy that's something that happens often enough to spread FUD over.
zopa 5y ago
So what? You're looking at it one job at a time, and for any one given job it might indeed suck. But collectively, the times when you're unfairly tossed out are balanced by the times when other people are, and you benefit from being in a smaller pool. If you spell it "nodejs," surely some HR person somewhere does too. It's random, and not based on any job-relevant differences, for sure. But hiring is always going to be pretty random so long as we're pretty bad at predicting who'll be good at any given job. So long as there's no systemic bias, it's fine, and selection by idiosyncratic spelling is at least much less biased than a lot of other irrelevant criteria that get used in hiring.
PragmaticPulp 5y ago
> That's very nice to think about but in the real world if people don't match some exact keywords they get thrown away. HR is looking for "node.js" but you wrote it like "nodejs"? Though luck pal, bye. HR wants a "computer scientist" but you have a degree in "computer science"? Same, automatically discarded I'm sure this happened somewhere at some point in time, but IMO it's becoming a myth blown out of proportion. I've never actually worked at a tech company that had any sort of automatic resume filtering software. As a hiring manager, we didn't even have HR pre-screening resumes for us. If we did have recruiters, they were competent and incentivized to find good candidates (e.g. wouldn't be unnecessarily rejecting good candidates because they were missing exact spellings of keywords) It would seem ludicrous in 2022 and this hiring crunch for a tech company (one that you'd actually want to work for) to arbitrarily filter out resumes based on incomplete keyword searching.
- beachy 5y ago
  I co-founded an ATS company and I can say that we were never asked for, nor provided, any functionality to automatically screen candidates out based on keyword filters (though candidate answers to actual questions like "Do you 5 years experience with node.js?" are often used to automatically screen out). That said, I have heard this often enough that some people must do it. I can't imagine why though, as it takes only a few seconds for a human to scan a resume. Even at 10 seconds per resume (a conservative estimate), that means the human could screen 360 resumes per hour.
  - Terretta 5y ago
    Where do these resumes in the ATS come from? Sourcing tends to use searches or keywords, which “filter” by not selecting in the first place. Applicant trackers tend to be a few steps downstream of that, so wouldn’t need to filter. Based on experience at firms with on the order of 1:1 applicants to hires up to 10,000:1 applicants to hires, I’d agree most such tools are not present at most companies, as they tend to be used from ratios of 100:1 and up. On the other hand, while most companies might not have or use such tools, the more jobs a company has, the more likely they are to have some form of selection or filtering in the pipeline.
jeroenhd 5y ago
I'm not sure if I'd mind that. If HR is made up of robots that stupid, that sounds like a terrible company to work for. A standard format wouldn't solve the problems you described. There's no comprehensive list of frameworks and programming languages, let alone for types of experience outside computer science. The data would be structured, but HR would still throw out the bits of data that need to be filled in manually.
- A4ET8a8uTh0 5y ago
  It varies. There is a reason there is some level dislike for HR cohorts. Keyword bingo is one of those things. Minor anecdote incoming. I applied to a company A. It was a fit. I think I used the right keywords. Zero response. I talked with my buddy there. She talked with hiring manager. I got hired by company A. I later found out HR was unhappy, because it undermined their 'process' - such as it is. There just has to be a better way to do this when compared to things as they are now.
  - ycombobreaker 5y ago
    Do you really care that you made HR unhappy though? Seems like you shouldn't, the company/team management is probably happy to pursue references over the funnel of random candidates, and the unhappy HR staffer is better off learning from the experience.
    - A4ET8a8uTh0 5y ago
      Not really is the truthful answer. The job in question had my best boss so far, so upsetting HR drone was a necessary evil in retrospect. I just dislike making people upset if it can be avoided. In my line of work, I do not get to make a ton of friends along the way. And who knows where that drone might end up in 10 years.
    - vanusa 5y ago
      Do you really care that you made HR unhappy though? Fundamentally it does kind of suck to have to put up people in your environment who are "unhappy" with you, or the fact that you snuck in there -- not because you don't belong there, but because of their own basic ignorance as to how things actually work. Not that you can't grit your teeth and live with it - it's a job after all, and that's what you get paid for. But still, it does kind of suck.
FledNanders 5y ago
> HR is looking for "node.js" but you wrote it like "nodejs"? Though luck pal, bye. HR wants a "computer scientist" but you have a degree in "computer science"? Same, automatically discarded. Wouldn't those issues be more likely to occur as a result of automated processing? I imagine that most humans who deal with technical hiring would guess that "node.js" and "nodejs" are probably the same thing.
- NullPrefix 5y ago
  Most humans who deal with technical hiring think that "javascript" and "java" are probably the same thing
  - LAC-Tech 5y ago
    Can confirm - I spent a year doing C++ because the recruiter thought it was the same thing as C#.
    - BeFlatXIII 5y ago
      Java ?? Java-Script ??? Which is which? http://web.archive.org/web/20171002221201/http://www.jerkcity.com/jerkcity1486.html http://web.archive.org/web/20171002221201/http://www.jerkcit... Originally published in October 2002 (almost 20 years ago from when this comment was made, for you future readers and time travellers).
- arwhatever 5y ago
  This sounds like an issue of syntax vs semantics, both of which would be relevant to building any sort of fair (as possible) data format.
- LorenPechtel 5y ago
  A standard would include standard forms of expressing things--there shouldn't be anything (other than names) that doesn't appear in their dictionary.
cpach 5y ago
I believe I understand your point – therefore I would like to take this opportunity to channel something that 'patio11 wrote on Twitter many years ago: “Do not send in a job application before you have an actual human being who has expressed enthusiasm for reading or forwarding it.”[0] I believe this is sound advice, and the pitfalls you mentioned was probably the reasons that he gave this advice. [0] https://twitter.com/patio11/status/770807498802540544 https://twitter.com/patio11/status/770807498802540544
- democracy 5y ago
  That's a good advice but probably for the top X percent in their industry who have a luxury to choose their employer - not everyone is in this position.
  - throwanem 5y ago
    It's not about picking your employer so much as it is about getting past the outer layer and in touch with an interested human who can champion you through the rest of the process. In the absence of a pre-existing relationship, a good recruiter is invaluable for this.
    - cpach 5y ago
      Recruiters can definitely be a good way. That’s how I landed, like, nearly every job I have ever been offered. Networking and reaching out to people at interesting companies is another way. You will probably still have to write a cover letter and send in your résumé. But if you have someone on the inside who will mention to the hiring manager that, ”hey, you should check out Jane’s application” it will probably make a great deal of difference compared to just applying and hoping for the best. And please folks, remember that FAANG is not the only game in town. There are lots and lots and lots of other companies out there, and many of them also pay well since they need to compete with FAANG to at least some extent.
  - a9h74j 5y ago
    Indeed, I first heard this advice in the form: Don't submit a resume until you are sure you have the job.
dan-robertson 5y ago
I’m curious if you have much evidence that this is common? I suspect it’s mostly a myth that is easy to believe (it can feel good to believe it because it means you were removed from the applicant pipeline because of stupid computer reasons rather than because you don’t appear to meet some bar to a human, even if that bar is a stupid thing like prestige) and oft repeated. I definitely think it’s likely that most people on hn don’t work for companies that do this, but maybe hn just skews toward certain kinds of tech jobs.
- rmahan 5y ago
  In college I got the advice that if you couldn’t highlight text on your resume then a bot can’t read it and it might get thrown out. And if that might cause it why risk it? I think the fact it’s low cost to avoid and high cost if it occurs keeps most people just doing it regardless of whether it’s true or not
- Spooky23 5y ago
  It happens in big companies. My team is hiring about 100 people in the next 6 months. For external candidates, we see less than 30% of all resumes. As with all things, 80% of the rest are junk and another 20% are potentially viable candidates.
  - Terretta 5y ago
    Exactly. It would seem most of the over-confident “it’s a myth” comments in this thread are from folks not familiar with typical processes for hiring in the 100s to 1000s.
    - bluGill 5y ago
      You shouldn't be hiring that many. The company might, but the managers and people doing the interviews should be looking at maybe 20 positions per year. They can read résumés themselves and give it some thought.
      - 5y ago
a9h74j 5y ago
New opportunities: Just as "medical coder" is now a profession (related to insurance filing), we could have "resume coder" as a profession.
vanusa 5y ago
That's very nice to think about but in the real world if people don't match some exact keywords they get thrown away. This isn't the "real world" you're referring to here -- it's the fin-de-big-tech bubble world where everyone and their dog is not only sold, smack-down drunk on the idea that Algorithms and Data are the Solution to Your Problems. They aren't of course -- it's just a giant hornswoggle. This "world" needs to end, and it needs to end soon. My belief is that it will. But until it does, companies that run crappy ATSs (like there's any other kind) deserve the buzzword-gurgling, keyword-dropping candidate pool get. And developers who get "rejected" by these companies should be grateful for the sublime gift of this rejection -- and for the opportunity to laser focus on companies and teams that use their heads to hire, rather than a fleet of bots. Snark aside - hiring managers that actually read resumes (and yes, actually at least skim each and every one -- really it ain't that hard) are golden to work for (other factors being equal). Really, you don't want to waste your time with companies that have drunken the ATS kool-aid. Really you don't. That said, however: HR is looking for "node.js" but you wrote it like "nodejs"? Though luck pal, bye. It's "Node.js" with a dot. If you spell it "nodejs", that's a serious red flag and you shouldn't be surprised if it gets you automatically discarded -- even by a human reviewer. That's what resumes used to be, after all -- a kind of a take-home test where you really do have enough time (and perfect knowledge) to get everything 100 percent right. And also a test of your awareness of the fact that, yes, in critical business communications at least -- this level of correctness does matter, and it matters a lot.
- digitalsushi 5y ago
  Google has 411m hits for Node.js and 66m for nodejs. I'd guess somewhere in the 66 million people calling it nodejs, we could find a real diamond in the rough if we heard them out at the next interview!
  - vanusa 5y ago
    That's exactly what I mean -- people believe in Big Data so much these days that when something appears in a sufficient portion of search results, it must have actual validity.
philliphaydon 5y ago
If HR is reviewing my CV then it’s prob not somewhere I want to work. :D
- moralestapia 5y ago
  That's a great point, though.
rubyfan 5y ago
I review every single resume and applicant I hire. My experience tells me talent acquisition professionals don’t really know how to match and will often suggest poor matches and not bring forward odd fits with interesting backgrounds. I get hundreds posting into some of the roles I’ve hired for and I’ve got to look at every single one in order to find a possible match. It generally takes me about 30 seconds to a minute to assess a resume. A kernel of interest stands out quickly or a smoke screen of buzz words tells me it’s the wrong candidate. Algorithms aren’t a substitute for an active hiring manager being really interested in finding the right candidate to join their team.
adolph 5y ago
More simply, a resume is just seo for hr.
tstrimple 5y ago
This is why applying for jobs using a resume is a losing battle. Make connections, get introductions, get recommendations. Plenty of ways to explore new jobs without being resume 123 out of 500 who applied. No telling what arbitrary filtering criteria will knock you out of the competition. Absolutely no feedback on why you weren't considered.
acchow 5y ago
Companies with this inferior filtering will see lower returns.
dathinab 5y ago
> If anything, a standard format would at least allow people to classify themselves/others correctly and without ambiguity. Except it doesn't, because a lot of things in life doesn't fit in that boxes that well. You might not have experience in node.js, but in JS and some of the node.js-alike server side VMs. Even just a "degree in computer science" can mean many things. Furthermore you might have something which for the position is "equivalent", like a "master of science in cognitive systems with a specialization on AI" which contained a lot of CS courses, and maybe also some pr-axis experience. Or you just started working as a programming free lancer with 16. Or ... Furthermore a resume is quite individualistic, beyond just the raw content it contains. How that content is represented can sometimes give you hints, about what kind of questions you want to ask during an interview. I have seen a bunch of standardized forms for resumes some companies opted into, they _always_ caused endless problems.
onion2k 5y ago
HR is looking for "node.js" but you wrote it like "nodejs"? Though luck pal, bye. HR wants a "computer scientist" but you have a degree in "computer science"? Same, automatically discarded. Fixing that would require not only a universal data format but also a universal taxonomy of terms to describe skills. That would need everyone to agree on how to describe what they do. Easy enough when you're describing programming languages, but effectively impossible for any softer skills. This is precisely why you need the human aspect. The way to fix the issue you describe is to educate HR people, not to try to apply technology to a non-tech problem.
- withinboredom 5y ago
  I'm pretty sure my Resume says "crazy outside-the-box madman" on it somewhere near the top. It pretty much guarantees that I work somewhere with a sense of humor while rejected from places that take themselves too seriously. Resumes aren't just a list of skills and work history (education isn't even on my resume anymore), it's also a chance to let a small amount of your personality show through so you stand out against the pile. Of course, if you're submitting to a big corp, you'll be fighting against AI reading your resume first, so, write for that if that's how you roll. I usually only apply to smaller companies that apparently end up as bigger companies by the time I move on.
  - JetAlone 5y ago
    >"crazy outside-the-box madman" I like that so much that I dare not copycat it.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - mellavora 5y ago
      see also "never fully domesticated", to quote one HN profile description. in the house == domesticated house approxEqual box
    - p_l 5y ago
david38 5y ago
In what tech companies does HR still filter resumes? I haven’t seen this is over a decade. Recruiters, hiring managers, and specialized software is all I see.
pjerem 5y ago
This is really not an issue. If the company as such a dumb HR department on automatic mode, I’m glad I’ll never be hired there. But to be honest, I’ve never seen so stupid HR people. Like a lot of people, they have goals to reach and they’ll happily accept an interview from any CV as long as there are computer-related keywords and roughly the required experience. HRs are one of the most important department when it comes to a company potential shitiness. So I’m glad they have the power to kick you from the hiring process for stupid reasons.
vorhemus 5y ago
This is a how things are handled at companies that get 500+ applications for each open position and/or are just incompetent. At smaller companies it is very likely that actual humans read a résumé without the keyword matching bullshit.
devoutsalsa 5y ago
If you put an idiot in charge of your recruiting, that is the real problem. A perfect AI that would tell you meant "node.js" when your iPhone's autocorrect changed it to "nodule jesus" won't protect you from the jackass running your hiring. There's no protection from being a moron.
sbuk 5y ago
Applicant Tracking systems, like Bullhorn, actually do a pretty decent job of fuzzy matching and normalising CV/resumés. Of course there is room for improvement and you need to ‘SEO’ your particular CV, but you really should do that for each job application anyway.
xarope 5y ago
Sadly I think this is a bit idealistic. Even in healthcare, doctors can't agree on abbreviations to put into a patient's records, and sadly the state of EMRs (electronic medical records) is a shambles due to this sort of data impedance mismatch. Come to think of it, the latter is probably why many of us will always have a job.
peterkelly 5y ago
This is a people problem, not a technical one. If a company is choosing which candidates to interview using grep, it's very likely the rest of their hiring process is similarly broken, and quite possibly other aspects of their corporate culture as well. They're actually doing candidates a favour by giving a clear indicator of how shit they are, much like a candidate who turns up to an interview drunk.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
skocznymroczny 5y ago
I was stumped for a while when HR asked me about my experience with "Microsoft Visual Studio technology" for a Python job.
belter 5y ago
They were also looking for developers with nosql but they could not find any...all developers knew sql...
raxxorrax 5y ago
In my company our HR department actually reads all applications. This is not true for the largest corporations of course. But that is a solvable problem, just provide a standardized form. You can even adapt it to the needs of the industry in question. This is actually a great boon because you can specifically ask for qualifications. There should be enough budget for that at least. If you company easily discards applications your HR is either incompetent or it just isn't looking for candidates. But even then you try to build a connection to people applying to you. You may meet them later because they tend to work in your industry. Again, there are special rules for the largest of corporations although I think HR should be manned enough to have a sensible recruitment process.
suifbwish 5y ago
Sounds like a job for a buzzword fuzzer
908B64B197 5y ago
I recall people copy-pasting the job description and hiding it in their resume by making the text invisible just so that automated software would see a 100% keyword match. Bonus here if you use 2-3 alternate spelling for each buzzword (C++ and c++). Is that no longer done?

WalterBright 5y ago

I asked a tech recruiter once how long he looked at a resume before deciding to trash it or file it. He said 2 seconds. He said he looked at about 1000 resumes a week. After a while, you can tell in 2 seconds if it is worth pursuing or not.

mcenedella 5y ago

This is not really an issue. Most resume ATSs enable fuzzy searching on stems and similar keywords.

dahart 5y ago

Your argument makes the case for human reviewers. The examples are a stretch though. I've never heard of anyone losing an interview due to their spelling of nodejs or computer science. I don't buy that's something that happens often enough to spread FUD over.

zopa 5y ago

So what? You're looking at it one job at a time, and for any one given job it might indeed suck. But collectively, the times when you're unfairly tossed out are balanced by the times when other people are, and you benefit from being in a smaller pool. If you spell it "nodejs," surely some HR person somewhere does too. It's random, and not based on any job-relevant differences, for sure. But hiring is always going to be pretty random so long as we're pretty bad at predicting who'll be good at any given job. So long as there's no systemic bias, it's fine, and selection by idiosyncratic spelling is at least much less biased than a lot of other irrelevant criteria that get used in hiring.

PragmaticPulp 5y ago

> That's very nice to think about but in the real world if people don't match some exact keywords they get thrown away. HR is looking for "node.js" but you wrote it like "nodejs"? Though luck pal, bye. HR wants a "computer scientist" but you have a degree in "computer science"? Same, automatically discarded I'm sure this happened somewhere at some point in time, but IMO it's becoming a myth blown out of proportion. I've never actually worked at a tech company that had any sort of automatic resume filtering software. As a hiring manager, we didn't even have HR pre-screening resumes for us. If we did have recruiters, they were competent and incentivized to find good candidates (e.g. wouldn't be unnecessarily rejecting good candidates because they were missing exact spellings of keywords) It would seem ludicrous in 2022 and this hiring crunch for a tech company (one that you'd actually want to work for) to arbitrarily filter out resumes based on incomplete keyword searching.

beachy 5y ago
I co-founded an ATS company and I can say that we were never asked for, nor provided, any functionality to automatically screen candidates out based on keyword filters (though candidate answers to actual questions like "Do you 5 years experience with node.js?" are often used to automatically screen out). That said, I have heard this often enough that some people must do it. I can't imagine why though, as it takes only a few seconds for a human to scan a resume. Even at 10 seconds per resume (a conservative estimate), that means the human could screen 360 resumes per hour.
- Terretta 5y ago
  Where do these resumes in the ATS come from? Sourcing tends to use searches or keywords, which “filter” by not selecting in the first place. Applicant trackers tend to be a few steps downstream of that, so wouldn’t need to filter. Based on experience at firms with on the order of 1:1 applicants to hires up to 10,000:1 applicants to hires, I’d agree most such tools are not present at most companies, as they tend to be used from ratios of 100:1 and up. On the other hand, while most companies might not have or use such tools, the more jobs a company has, the more likely they are to have some form of selection or filtering in the pipeline.

jeroenhd 5y ago

I'm not sure if I'd mind that. If HR is made up of robots that stupid, that sounds like a terrible company to work for. A standard format wouldn't solve the problems you described. There's no comprehensive list of frameworks and programming languages, let alone for types of experience outside computer science. The data would be structured, but HR would still throw out the bits of data that need to be filled in manually.

A4ET8a8uTh0 5y ago
It varies. There is a reason there is some level dislike for HR cohorts. Keyword bingo is one of those things. Minor anecdote incoming. I applied to a company A. It was a fit. I think I used the right keywords. Zero response. I talked with my buddy there. She talked with hiring manager. I got hired by company A. I later found out HR was unhappy, because it undermined their 'process' - such as it is. There just has to be a better way to do this when compared to things as they are now.
- ycombobreaker 5y ago
  Do you really care that you made HR unhappy though? Seems like you shouldn't, the company/team management is probably happy to pursue references over the funnel of random candidates, and the unhappy HR staffer is better off learning from the experience.
  - A4ET8a8uTh0 5y ago
    Not really is the truthful answer. The job in question had my best boss so far, so upsetting HR drone was a necessary evil in retrospect. I just dislike making people upset if it can be avoided. In my line of work, I do not get to make a ton of friends along the way. And who knows where that drone might end up in 10 years.
  - vanusa 5y ago
    Do you really care that you made HR unhappy though? Fundamentally it does kind of suck to have to put up people in your environment who are "unhappy" with you, or the fact that you snuck in there -- not because you don't belong there, but because of their own basic ignorance as to how things actually work. Not that you can't grit your teeth and live with it - it's a job after all, and that's what you get paid for. But still, it does kind of suck.

FledNanders 5y ago

> HR is looking for "node.js" but you wrote it like "nodejs"? Though luck pal, bye. HR wants a "computer scientist" but you have a degree in "computer science"? Same, automatically discarded. Wouldn't those issues be more likely to occur as a result of automated processing? I imagine that most humans who deal with technical hiring would guess that "node.js" and "nodejs" are probably the same thing.

NullPrefix 5y ago
Most humans who deal with technical hiring think that "javascript" and "java" are probably the same thing
- LAC-Tech 5y ago
  Can confirm - I spent a year doing C++ because the recruiter thought it was the same thing as C#.
  - BeFlatXIII 5y ago
    Java ?? Java-Script ??? Which is which? http://web.archive.org/web/20171002221201/http://www.jerkcity.com/jerkcity1486.html http://web.archive.org/web/20171002221201/http://www.jerkcit... Originally published in October 2002 (almost 20 years ago from when this comment was made, for you future readers and time travellers).
arwhatever 5y ago
This sounds like an issue of syntax vs semantics, both of which would be relevant to building any sort of fair (as possible) data format.
LorenPechtel 5y ago
A standard would include standard forms of expressing things--there shouldn't be anything (other than names) that doesn't appear in their dictionary.

cpach 5y ago

I believe I understand your point – therefore I would like to take this opportunity to channel something that 'patio11 wrote on Twitter many years ago: “Do not send in a job application before you have an actual human being who has expressed enthusiasm for reading or forwarding it.”[0] I believe this is sound advice, and the pitfalls you mentioned was probably the reasons that he gave this advice. [0] https://twitter.com/patio11/status/770807498802540544 https://twitter.com/patio11/status/770807498802540544

democracy 5y ago
That's a good advice but probably for the top X percent in their industry who have a luxury to choose their employer - not everyone is in this position.
- throwanem 5y ago
  It's not about picking your employer so much as it is about getting past the outer layer and in touch with an interested human who can champion you through the rest of the process. In the absence of a pre-existing relationship, a good recruiter is invaluable for this.
  - cpach 5y ago
    Recruiters can definitely be a good way. That’s how I landed, like, nearly every job I have ever been offered. Networking and reaching out to people at interesting companies is another way. You will probably still have to write a cover letter and send in your résumé. But if you have someone on the inside who will mention to the hiring manager that, ”hey, you should check out Jane’s application” it will probably make a great deal of difference compared to just applying and hoping for the best. And please folks, remember that FAANG is not the only game in town. There are lots and lots and lots of other companies out there, and many of them also pay well since they need to compete with FAANG to at least some extent.
- a9h74j 5y ago
  Indeed, I first heard this advice in the form: Don't submit a resume until you are sure you have the job.

dan-robertson 5y ago

I’m curious if you have much evidence that this is common? I suspect it’s mostly a myth that is easy to believe (it can feel good to believe it because it means you were removed from the applicant pipeline because of stupid computer reasons rather than because you don’t appear to meet some bar to a human, even if that bar is a stupid thing like prestige) and oft repeated. I definitely think it’s likely that most people on hn don’t work for companies that do this, but maybe hn just skews toward certain kinds of tech jobs.

rmahan 5y ago
In college I got the advice that if you couldn’t highlight text on your resume then a bot can’t read it and it might get thrown out. And if that might cause it why risk it? I think the fact it’s low cost to avoid and high cost if it occurs keeps most people just doing it regardless of whether it’s true or not
Spooky23 5y ago
It happens in big companies. My team is hiring about 100 people in the next 6 months. For external candidates, we see less than 30% of all resumes. As with all things, 80% of the rest are junk and another 20% are potentially viable candidates.
- Terretta 5y ago
  Exactly. It would seem most of the over-confident “it’s a myth” comments in this thread are from folks not familiar with typical processes for hiring in the 100s to 1000s.
  - bluGill 5y ago
    You shouldn't be hiring that many. The company might, but the managers and people doing the interviews should be looking at maybe 20 positions per year. They can read résumés themselves and give it some thought.
    - 5y ago

a9h74j 5y ago

New opportunities: Just as "medical coder" is now a profession (related to insurance filing), we could have "resume coder" as a profession.

vanusa 5y ago

That's very nice to think about but in the real world if people don't match some exact keywords they get thrown away. This isn't the "real world" you're referring to here -- it's the fin-de-big-tech bubble world where everyone and their dog is not only sold, smack-down drunk on the idea that Algorithms and Data are the Solution to Your Problems. They aren't of course -- it's just a giant hornswoggle. This "world" needs to end, and it needs to end soon. My belief is that it will. But until it does, companies that run crappy ATSs (like there's any other kind) deserve the buzzword-gurgling, keyword-dropping candidate pool get. And developers who get "rejected" by these companies should be grateful for the sublime gift of this rejection -- and for the opportunity to laser focus on companies and teams that use their heads to hire, rather than a fleet of bots. Snark aside - hiring managers that actually read resumes (and yes, actually at least skim each and every one -- really it ain't that hard) are golden to work for (other factors being equal). Really, you don't want to waste your time with companies that have drunken the ATS kool-aid. Really you don't. That said, however: HR is looking for "node.js" but you wrote it like "nodejs"? Though luck pal, bye. It's "Node.js" with a dot. If you spell it "nodejs", that's a serious red flag and you shouldn't be surprised if it gets you automatically discarded -- even by a human reviewer. That's what resumes used to be, after all -- a kind of a take-home test where you really do have enough time (and perfect knowledge) to get everything 100 percent right. And also a test of your awareness of the fact that, yes, in critical business communications at least -- this level of correctness does matter, and it matters a lot.

digitalsushi 5y ago
Google has 411m hits for Node.js and 66m for nodejs. I'd guess somewhere in the 66 million people calling it nodejs, we could find a real diamond in the rough if we heard them out at the next interview!
- vanusa 5y ago
  That's exactly what I mean -- people believe in Big Data so much these days that when something appears in a sufficient portion of search results, it must have actual validity.

philliphaydon 5y ago

If HR is reviewing my CV then it’s prob not somewhere I want to work. :D

moralestapia 5y ago
That's a great point, though.

rubyfan 5y ago

I review every single resume and applicant I hire. My experience tells me talent acquisition professionals don’t really know how to match and will often suggest poor matches and not bring forward odd fits with interesting backgrounds. I get hundreds posting into some of the roles I’ve hired for and I’ve got to look at every single one in order to find a possible match. It generally takes me about 30 seconds to a minute to assess a resume. A kernel of interest stands out quickly or a smoke screen of buzz words tells me it’s the wrong candidate. Algorithms aren’t a substitute for an active hiring manager being really interested in finding the right candidate to join their team.

adolph 5y ago

More simply, a resume is just seo for hr.

tstrimple 5y ago

This is why applying for jobs using a resume is a losing battle. Make connections, get introductions, get recommendations. Plenty of ways to explore new jobs without being resume 123 out of 500 who applied. No telling what arbitrary filtering criteria will knock you out of the competition. Absolutely no feedback on why you weren't considered.

acchow 5y ago

Companies with this inferior filtering will see lower returns.

dathinab 5y ago

> If anything, a standard format would at least allow people to classify themselves/others correctly and without ambiguity. Except it doesn't, because a lot of things in life doesn't fit in that boxes that well. You might not have experience in node.js, but in JS and some of the node.js-alike server side VMs. Even just a "degree in computer science" can mean many things. Furthermore you might have something which for the position is "equivalent", like a "master of science in cognitive systems with a specialization on AI" which contained a lot of CS courses, and maybe also some pr-axis experience. Or you just started working as a programming free lancer with 16. Or ... Furthermore a resume is quite individualistic, beyond just the raw content it contains. How that content is represented can sometimes give you hints, about what kind of questions you want to ask during an interview. I have seen a bunch of standardized forms for resumes some companies opted into, they _always_ caused endless problems.

onion2k 5y ago

HR is looking for "node.js" but you wrote it like "nodejs"? Though luck pal, bye. HR wants a "computer scientist" but you have a degree in "computer science"? Same, automatically discarded. Fixing that would require not only a universal data format but also a universal taxonomy of terms to describe skills. That would need everyone to agree on how to describe what they do. Easy enough when you're describing programming languages, but effectively impossible for any softer skills. This is precisely why you need the human aspect. The way to fix the issue you describe is to educate HR people, not to try to apply technology to a non-tech problem.

withinboredom 5y ago
I'm pretty sure my Resume says "crazy outside-the-box madman" on it somewhere near the top. It pretty much guarantees that I work somewhere with a sense of humor while rejected from places that take themselves too seriously. Resumes aren't just a list of skills and work history (education isn't even on my resume anymore), it's also a chance to let a small amount of your personality show through so you stand out against the pile. Of course, if you're submitting to a big corp, you'll be fighting against AI reading your resume first, so, write for that if that's how you roll. I usually only apply to smaller companies that apparently end up as bigger companies by the time I move on.
- JetAlone 5y ago
  >"crazy outside-the-box madman" I like that so much that I dare not copycat it.
  - deleted 5y ago
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  - mellavora 5y ago
    see also "never fully domesticated", to quote one HN profile description. in the house == domesticated house approxEqual box
  - p_l 5y ago

david38 5y ago

In what tech companies does HR still filter resumes? I haven’t seen this is over a decade. Recruiters, hiring managers, and specialized software is all I see.

pjerem 5y ago

This is really not an issue. If the company as such a dumb HR department on automatic mode, I’m glad I’ll never be hired there. But to be honest, I’ve never seen so stupid HR people. Like a lot of people, they have goals to reach and they’ll happily accept an interview from any CV as long as there are computer-related keywords and roughly the required experience. HRs are one of the most important department when it comes to a company potential shitiness. So I’m glad they have the power to kick you from the hiring process for stupid reasons.

vorhemus 5y ago

This is a how things are handled at companies that get 500+ applications for each open position and/or are just incompetent. At smaller companies it is very likely that actual humans read a résumé without the keyword matching bullshit.

devoutsalsa 5y ago

If you put an idiot in charge of your recruiting, that is the real problem. A perfect AI that would tell you meant "node.js" when your iPhone's autocorrect changed it to "nodule jesus" won't protect you from the jackass running your hiring. There's no protection from being a moron.

sbuk 5y ago

Applicant Tracking systems, like Bullhorn, actually do a pretty decent job of fuzzy matching and normalising CV/resumés. Of course there is room for improvement and you need to ‘SEO’ your particular CV, but you really should do that for each job application anyway.

xarope 5y ago

Sadly I think this is a bit idealistic. Even in healthcare, doctors can't agree on abbreviations to put into a patient's records, and sadly the state of EMRs (electronic medical records) is a shambles due to this sort of data impedance mismatch. Come to think of it, the latter is probably why many of us will always have a job.

peterkelly 5y ago

This is a people problem, not a technical one. If a company is choosing which candidates to interview using grep, it's very likely the rest of their hiring process is similarly broken, and quite possibly other aspects of their corporate culture as well. They're actually doing candidates a favour by giving a clear indicator of how shit they are, much like a candidate who turns up to an interview drunk.

deleted 5y ago

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skocznymroczny 5y ago

I was stumped for a while when HR asked me about my experience with "Microsoft Visual Studio technology" for a Python job.

belter 5y ago

They were also looking for developers with nosql but they could not find any...all developers knew sql...

raxxorrax 5y ago

In my company our HR department actually reads all applications. This is not true for the largest corporations of course. But that is a solvable problem, just provide a standardized form. You can even adapt it to the needs of the industry in question. This is actually a great boon because you can specifically ask for qualifications. There should be enough budget for that at least. If you company easily discards applications your HR is either incompetent or it just isn't looking for candidates. But even then you try to build a connection to people applying to you. You may meet them later because they tend to work in your industry. Again, there are special rules for the largest of corporations although I think HR should be manned enough to have a sensible recruitment process.

suifbwish 5y ago

Sounds like a job for a buzzword fuzzer

908B64B197 5y ago

I recall people copy-pasting the job description and hiding it in their resume by making the text invisible just so that automated software would see a 100% keyword match. Bonus here if you use 2-3 alternate spelling for each buzzword (C++ and c++). Is that no longer done?