5 ms·

I still can't fathom why anyone thinks it's OK to leave cats outside to roam free. They decimate the songbird population and kill for fun. You want to talk ab

by tw04 5y ago

I still can't fathom why anyone thinks it's OK to leave cats outside to roam free. They decimate the songbird population and kill for fun. You want to talk about low-hanging fruit to protect mother nature? Keep your cats inside or tethered if they're outside... we expect it from dog owners, and rightly so. Not sure why people with cats think they should be free to roam.

jmspring 5y ago
I have five cats. They are indoor / outdoor (I get them inside before dark). Living in a rural (forest) area, there is a fair amount of critters around. In the last six years, there have been maybe 6-8 birds caught and about 2 chickarees (small, fast squirrels - one was caught my since deceased senior cat). Cats are hunters for sure, but not all decimate things.
nosianu 5y ago
> I still can't fathom why anyone thinks it's OK to leave cats outside to roam free. See, I can't fathom the opposite. Cats belong outdoors. I will never have an indoor cat. Vote me down as much as you like, THAT is unnatural (I will also not have exoctic cats that could only live indoors). The greatest danger to songbirds is human changes to the environment, not cats, by several orders of magnitude. Animals having predators is not exactly unnatural, to put it carefully. Although I do wish we could create cats, by selection or some day by gene editing, that leave birds alone completely.
- More-nitors 5y ago
  > Animals having predators is not exactly unnatural, to put it carefully. uh... but if those predators are bred by humans, it's unnatural
  - nosianu 5y ago
    We do? I know of pup mills, I am unaware of cat mills. Maybe for exotic cats, but those would be the types people keep at home because they would not fare so well outside anyway. And since when is one species doing something that benefits another unnatural? That exists among animals too.
    - More-nitors 5y ago
      hm I guess you're trying to make this into cat vs dog owners... but it's about: * properly keeping your pet from harm / harming others * > And since when is one species doing something that benefits another unnatural? well I guess humans interfering nature is "natural" after all... I mean, we're "part of nature"
    - TylerE 5y ago
      Well, cats wouldn't be anywhere except for Africa and maybe eastern Europe if it wasn't for humans. (Yes, I know wildcats exist, but their ranges and populations are limited)
- tw04 5y ago
  >The greatest danger to songbirds is human changes to the environment, not cats, by several orders of magnitude. Animals having predators is not exactly unnatural, to put it carefully. We aren't going to stop creating buildings with windows. Outside of that, the largest killer of birds is by cats, by a long shot. Which is literally 100% preventable. And no, humans are NOT an order of magnitude more than cats, not even close. https://www.sibleyguides.com/conservation/causes-of-bird-mortality/ https://www.sibleyguides.com/conservation/causes-of-bird-mor...
  - nosianu 5y ago
    Given all the many articles about the decline of many kinds of birds, your claim that cats are to blame is plain wrong. That was not the conclusion in any of those many articles that we could read right here on HN. Lack of environment and of food - insects is the usual culprit named in them. Cats are one reason, but certainly not the dominating one. Neither would cats matter at all without the other reasons because there would be plenty of birds. In this discussion I'll take the downvotes with pride, this is getting ridiculous.
  - shkkmo 5y ago
    You should read your sources more carefully. The article you posted explicitly makes the same argument as nosianu: > First, it should be stated that the single most significant threat to bird populations is habitat destruction, in all of its forms and with all of its causes. The various causes of mortality outlined below kill individual birds directly, and can certainly have an adverse effect on population size, but can actually have a beneficial effect in some cases. Studies of hunting have documented that in certain cases killing small numbers of birds can improve the health and survival of the remaining birds. As long as the habitat is intact, the population has the potential to replace the lost birds.
- QuantumYeti 5y ago
  Are pet cats not considered a human change to the environment? Feral cat colonies are an entirely different ecosystem than pet cats, from what I can gather. Edit: Also, I can understand your sentiment for not wanting to have an indoor cat. It seems 'unnatural' to me too. I want to them to have as much freedom and joy as possible, but... I've also had outdoor cats that just get run over, so. I don't know what the right way is.
  - shkkmo 5y ago
    The "change to the environment" that has the biggest effect is habitat destruction. There are places, especially remote islands, where cats have had significant effects on the environment, but in most places predation of songbirds by cats is dwarfed by predation from other animals.
    - QuantumYeti 5y ago
      That seems like a reasonable explanation to me, but to just give a reference for my train of thought... I was thinking of Macquarie Island, which has a weird history of animal/pest control. Rodents were introduced to the island, then cats to help with the rodents... and then the cats wiped out the native seabird population. Edit: Just realized I'm mentioning a small island, like you said, hehe. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macquarie_Island#Ecological_balance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macquarie_Island#Ecological_ba...
- monocasa 5y ago
  Housecats being anywhere other than desert predators _is_ a human change to the environment. They were then introduced places other than Egypt and the levant because of how efficient they are at pest removal from grain stores. From a certain perspective they're as much farm equipment as the plow. If we had somehow lucked into say a armored hog that could be convinced to plow a field as it searched for truffles or something, we'd consider that an issue for them to free roam on every continent and decimate local wildlife.
  - achenatx 5y ago
    feral hogs are a huge problem. They do decimate local wildlife.
    - monocasa 5y ago
      Sure, I was just trying to tie it into more of analog of farm equipment gone awry than agricultural products. You're totally right though.
RobertRoberts 5y ago
I have heard that cats murder so many birds... but just the shear math of it seems to make it likely a myth. I've watched cats outside, it takes them _forever_ to kill even 1 bird, let alone 20 a day, or whatever the claim is. They kill mice, squirrels, rabbits, ground stuff, etc... _way_ faster and more frequently.
- 0xB31B1B 5y ago
  Some guy put a camera on his cat for a week and put the vid on YouTube. The cat killed like 50 animals in a week.
  - not-my-account 5y ago
    link?
- micromacrofoot 5y ago
  the claim is 20-40 a year, which is really low sounding to me… keep in mind these are animals that can survive on their own, does 1 bird a week really seem mythical to you [pdf] https://abcbirds.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Loss-et-al.-2013-Impact-of-free-ranging-domestic-cats-on-wildlife-in-U.S..pdf https://abcbirds.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Loss-et-al.-...
  - RobertRoberts 5y ago
    From your link: > We estimate that cats in the contiguous United States annually kill between 1.4 and 3.7 billion birds (median ¼ 2.4 billion) (Fig. 1a), with ~69% of this mortality caused by un-owned cats. The predation estimate for un-owned cats was higher primarily due to predation rates by this group averaging three times greater than rates for owned cats. The range of estimate is staggering, and that it's un-owned cats are the primary issue. But it's not _only_ the numbers I take issue with, it's the conclusion people take with it and how they communicate it. "Cats are killing BILLIONS of birds! Keep your cat in, or don't even own one."
- Tiktaalik 5y ago
drzaiusapelord 5y ago
If they're feral there's not a lot we can do. We can capture them and fix them so they don't reproduce but they can't be homed and killing them would be evil. Outdoor cats are a bit more complex but its also cruel to lock up an animal all day in a home. They need stimulation and exercise. The real fix is to ban pet ownership. No one likes to talk about that because so many of us need pets for emotional stability and companionship, but pretty much all pet ownership is unethical. Birds getting killed really is the tip of the iceberg, as in, its the most visible part of this problem, but so much more lies below it, supporting it and creating this situation. I love animals and don't eat them, nor do I keep them as pets. I fully believe this is the right way to go in life. People attacking this type of pet owner vs that type of pet owner are missing the forest for the trees here, and I suspect getting a nice ego boost over being the "better" animal jailer. Logically, emotionally, and ethically, pet ownership simply cannot be made humane, good for pets, or good for wildlife. The only fix is to get rid of pet culture entirely.
- poulsbohemian 5y ago
  > pretty much all pet ownership is unethical Convince me, because nothing you've written above has made a case. Tell me how my cats receiving daily meds for their health issues, receiving better medical care than I get, having their choice of multiple varieties of foods and treats, having perches at all heights, having a fucking three-tier custom catio is somehow abusing them and unethical.
  - nostrebored 5y ago
    I strongly recommend Douglas Adam’s except about the cow that wants to be eaten. Strongly.
    - betwixthewires 5y ago
      https://remotestorage.blogspot.com/2010/07/douglas-adamss-cow-that-wants-to-be.html https://remotestorage.blogspot.com/2010/07/douglas-adamss-co... For anyone interested. It's not really that compelling. It's a funny scenario.
greesil 5y ago
They are killing machines. Cute, cuddly killing machines. But they also kill vermin that eat garden plants. If you've got a serious vegetable garden going, outdoor cats can really help take care of gophers, rabbits, squirrels, and mice. Won't take care of the deer though, but a good fence and a 12 gauge will.
- betwixthewires 5y ago
  I'd go with a rat terrier or other such rodent killing dog.
  - willis936 5y ago
    But then you'd own a rat terrier.
throwawaylinux 5y ago
Many types of bird, as well as and small reptiles and mammals.
wglb 5y ago
They also keep chipmunks at bay so they don't relocate your crocuses into a different spot in your yard. After all, cats are hunting carnivores.
- wavefunction 5y ago
  Crocuses in chipmunk territory sounds like the exposition of some sort of dystopian future but it's now!
scythe 5y ago
Everyone says they decimate songbirds, but all the cats I see running around my neighborhood do nothing to keep the birds from waking me up in the morning. Must be the stimulus payments, damn cats these days...
betwixthewires 5y ago
I think the solution to this is to just not have cats. They don't belong inside. And they're invasive most places they're kept, and their populations are artificially elevated by people housing and feeding them.
- rvbissell 5y ago
  As a recent convert from dogs to cats, I have to respond with a friendly 'fuck you!' to that solution. I have never bonded with an animal more than I have my most senior cat. And it's mutual, she sleeps between my legs. I care about ecology at large, but at home I care about my cats more.
  - betwixthewires 5y ago
    I had one. He was great. No problems, even pooped outside on his own. I loved him, we were best friends. Never again.
charcircuit 5y ago
>I still can't fathom why anyone thinks it's OK to leave cats outside to roam free. Because my cat wants to go outside and roam arround. It's what he prefers. My other cat prefers staying inside and doesn't like going outside very much. Sure cats kill things, bring you "presents", or bring things they've caught inside but that's just part of the experience of having a cat.
bluefirebrand 5y ago
Personally, I agree with you. But consider the other viewpoint of the person who cannot fathom keeping cats locked inside away from nature. A lot of cats are just strays, too.
dilawar 5y ago
Some statistics in support: https://abcbirds.org/program/cats-indoors/cats-and-birds/ https://abcbirds.org/program/cats-indoors/cats-and-birds/
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
hffftz 5y ago
My cat used to kill a bunch of rats/mice...
Thorentis 5y ago
And yet for millions of years birds and cats have co-existed.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
dang 5y ago
"Eschew flamebait. Avoid unrelated controversies and generic tangents." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29943374 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29943374.

by tw04 5y ago

jmspring 5y ago

I have five cats. They are indoor / outdoor (I get them inside before dark). Living in a rural (forest) area, there is a fair amount of critters around. In the last six years, there have been maybe 6-8 birds caught and about 2 chickarees (small, fast squirrels - one was caught my since deceased senior cat). Cats are hunters for sure, but not all decimate things.

nosianu 5y ago

> I still can't fathom why anyone thinks it's OK to leave cats outside to roam free. See, I can't fathom the opposite. Cats belong outdoors. I will never have an indoor cat. Vote me down as much as you like, THAT is unnatural (I will also not have exoctic cats that could only live indoors). The greatest danger to songbirds is human changes to the environment, not cats, by several orders of magnitude. Animals having predators is not exactly unnatural, to put it carefully. Although I do wish we could create cats, by selection or some day by gene editing, that leave birds alone completely.

More-nitors 5y ago
> Animals having predators is not exactly unnatural, to put it carefully. uh... but if those predators are bred by humans, it's unnatural
- nosianu 5y ago
  We do? I know of pup mills, I am unaware of cat mills. Maybe for exotic cats, but those would be the types people keep at home because they would not fare so well outside anyway. And since when is one species doing something that benefits another unnatural? That exists among animals too.
  - More-nitors 5y ago
    hm I guess you're trying to make this into cat vs dog owners... but it's about: * properly keeping your pet from harm / harming others * > And since when is one species doing something that benefits another unnatural? well I guess humans interfering nature is "natural" after all... I mean, we're "part of nature"
  - TylerE 5y ago
    Well, cats wouldn't be anywhere except for Africa and maybe eastern Europe if it wasn't for humans. (Yes, I know wildcats exist, but their ranges and populations are limited)
tw04 5y ago
>The greatest danger to songbirds is human changes to the environment, not cats, by several orders of magnitude. Animals having predators is not exactly unnatural, to put it carefully. We aren't going to stop creating buildings with windows. Outside of that, the largest killer of birds is by cats, by a long shot. Which is literally 100% preventable. And no, humans are NOT an order of magnitude more than cats, not even close. https://www.sibleyguides.com/conservation/causes-of-bird-mortality/ https://www.sibleyguides.com/conservation/causes-of-bird-mor...
- nosianu 5y ago
  Given all the many articles about the decline of many kinds of birds, your claim that cats are to blame is plain wrong. That was not the conclusion in any of those many articles that we could read right here on HN. Lack of environment and of food - insects is the usual culprit named in them. Cats are one reason, but certainly not the dominating one. Neither would cats matter at all without the other reasons because there would be plenty of birds. In this discussion I'll take the downvotes with pride, this is getting ridiculous.
- shkkmo 5y ago
  You should read your sources more carefully. The article you posted explicitly makes the same argument as nosianu: > First, it should be stated that the single most significant threat to bird populations is habitat destruction, in all of its forms and with all of its causes. The various causes of mortality outlined below kill individual birds directly, and can certainly have an adverse effect on population size, but can actually have a beneficial effect in some cases. Studies of hunting have documented that in certain cases killing small numbers of birds can improve the health and survival of the remaining birds. As long as the habitat is intact, the population has the potential to replace the lost birds.
QuantumYeti 5y ago
Are pet cats not considered a human change to the environment? Feral cat colonies are an entirely different ecosystem than pet cats, from what I can gather. Edit: Also, I can understand your sentiment for not wanting to have an indoor cat. It seems 'unnatural' to me too. I want to them to have as much freedom and joy as possible, but... I've also had outdoor cats that just get run over, so. I don't know what the right way is.
- shkkmo 5y ago
  The "change to the environment" that has the biggest effect is habitat destruction. There are places, especially remote islands, where cats have had significant effects on the environment, but in most places predation of songbirds by cats is dwarfed by predation from other animals.
  - QuantumYeti 5y ago
    That seems like a reasonable explanation to me, but to just give a reference for my train of thought... I was thinking of Macquarie Island, which has a weird history of animal/pest control. Rodents were introduced to the island, then cats to help with the rodents... and then the cats wiped out the native seabird population. Edit: Just realized I'm mentioning a small island, like you said, hehe. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macquarie_Island#Ecological_balance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macquarie_Island#Ecological_ba...
monocasa 5y ago
Housecats being anywhere other than desert predators _is_ a human change to the environment. They were then introduced places other than Egypt and the levant because of how efficient they are at pest removal from grain stores. From a certain perspective they're as much farm equipment as the plow. If we had somehow lucked into say a armored hog that could be convinced to plow a field as it searched for truffles or something, we'd consider that an issue for them to free roam on every continent and decimate local wildlife.
- achenatx 5y ago
  feral hogs are a huge problem. They do decimate local wildlife.
  - monocasa 5y ago
    Sure, I was just trying to tie it into more of analog of farm equipment gone awry than agricultural products. You're totally right though.

RobertRoberts 5y ago

I have heard that cats murder so many birds... but just the shear math of it seems to make it likely a myth. I've watched cats outside, it takes them _forever_ to kill even 1 bird, let alone 20 a day, or whatever the claim is. They kill mice, squirrels, rabbits, ground stuff, etc... _way_ faster and more frequently.

0xB31B1B 5y ago
Some guy put a camera on his cat for a week and put the vid on YouTube. The cat killed like 50 animals in a week.
- not-my-account 5y ago
  link?
micromacrofoot 5y ago
the claim is 20-40 a year, which is really low sounding to me… keep in mind these are animals that can survive on their own, does 1 bird a week really seem mythical to you [pdf] https://abcbirds.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Loss-et-al.-2013-Impact-of-free-ranging-domestic-cats-on-wildlife-in-U.S..pdf https://abcbirds.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Loss-et-al.-...
- RobertRoberts 5y ago
  From your link: > We estimate that cats in the contiguous United States annually kill between 1.4 and 3.7 billion birds (median ¼ 2.4 billion) (Fig. 1a), with ~69% of this mortality caused by un-owned cats. The predation estimate for un-owned cats was higher primarily due to predation rates by this group averaging three times greater than rates for owned cats. The range of estimate is staggering, and that it's un-owned cats are the primary issue. But it's not _only_ the numbers I take issue with, it's the conclusion people take with it and how they communicate it. "Cats are killing BILLIONS of birds! Keep your cat in, or don't even own one."
Tiktaalik 5y ago

drzaiusapelord 5y ago

If they're feral there's not a lot we can do. We can capture them and fix them so they don't reproduce but they can't be homed and killing them would be evil. Outdoor cats are a bit more complex but its also cruel to lock up an animal all day in a home. They need stimulation and exercise. The real fix is to ban pet ownership. No one likes to talk about that because so many of us need pets for emotional stability and companionship, but pretty much all pet ownership is unethical. Birds getting killed really is the tip of the iceberg, as in, its the most visible part of this problem, but so much more lies below it, supporting it and creating this situation. I love animals and don't eat them, nor do I keep them as pets. I fully believe this is the right way to go in life. People attacking this type of pet owner vs that type of pet owner are missing the forest for the trees here, and I suspect getting a nice ego boost over being the "better" animal jailer. Logically, emotionally, and ethically, pet ownership simply cannot be made humane, good for pets, or good for wildlife. The only fix is to get rid of pet culture entirely.

poulsbohemian 5y ago
> pretty much all pet ownership is unethical Convince me, because nothing you've written above has made a case. Tell me how my cats receiving daily meds for their health issues, receiving better medical care than I get, having their choice of multiple varieties of foods and treats, having perches at all heights, having a fucking three-tier custom catio is somehow abusing them and unethical.
- nostrebored 5y ago
  I strongly recommend Douglas Adam’s except about the cow that wants to be eaten. Strongly.
  - betwixthewires 5y ago
    https://remotestorage.blogspot.com/2010/07/douglas-adamss-cow-that-wants-to-be.html https://remotestorage.blogspot.com/2010/07/douglas-adamss-co... For anyone interested. It's not really that compelling. It's a funny scenario.

greesil 5y ago

They are killing machines. Cute, cuddly killing machines. But they also kill vermin that eat garden plants. If you've got a serious vegetable garden going, outdoor cats can really help take care of gophers, rabbits, squirrels, and mice. Won't take care of the deer though, but a good fence and a 12 gauge will.

betwixthewires 5y ago
I'd go with a rat terrier or other such rodent killing dog.
- willis936 5y ago
  But then you'd own a rat terrier.

throwawaylinux 5y ago

Many types of bird, as well as and small reptiles and mammals.

wglb 5y ago

They also keep chipmunks at bay so they don't relocate your crocuses into a different spot in your yard. After all, cats are hunting carnivores.

wavefunction 5y ago
Crocuses in chipmunk territory sounds like the exposition of some sort of dystopian future but it's now!

scythe 5y ago

Everyone says they decimate songbirds, but all the cats I see running around my neighborhood do nothing to keep the birds from waking me up in the morning. Must be the stimulus payments, damn cats these days...

betwixthewires 5y ago

I think the solution to this is to just not have cats. They don't belong inside. And they're invasive most places they're kept, and their populations are artificially elevated by people housing and feeding them.

rvbissell 5y ago
As a recent convert from dogs to cats, I have to respond with a friendly 'fuck you!' to that solution. I have never bonded with an animal more than I have my most senior cat. And it's mutual, she sleeps between my legs. I care about ecology at large, but at home I care about my cats more.
- betwixthewires 5y ago
  I had one. He was great. No problems, even pooped outside on his own. I loved him, we were best friends. Never again.

charcircuit 5y ago

>I still can't fathom why anyone thinks it's OK to leave cats outside to roam free. Because my cat wants to go outside and roam arround. It's what he prefers. My other cat prefers staying inside and doesn't like going outside very much. Sure cats kill things, bring you "presents", or bring things they've caught inside but that's just part of the experience of having a cat.

bluefirebrand 5y ago

Personally, I agree with you. But consider the other viewpoint of the person who cannot fathom keeping cats locked inside away from nature. A lot of cats are just strays, too.

dilawar 5y ago

Some statistics in support: https://abcbirds.org/program/cats-indoors/cats-and-birds/ https://abcbirds.org/program/cats-indoors/cats-and-birds/

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

hffftz 5y ago

My cat used to kill a bunch of rats/mice...

Thorentis 5y ago

And yet for millions of years birds and cats have co-existed.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

dang 5y ago

"Eschew flamebait. Avoid unrelated controversies and generic tangents." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29943374 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29943374.