5 ms·

Every time I hear "liquid sodium" I think "run away!" How in the world would you make that safe even without the nuclear stuff?

by api 5y ago

PaulHoule 5y ago
(1) Argon cover gas (2) Fires happen all the time in industrial facilities. You detect them and put them out. US and Russian literature tells you how it is done. EBR-II, FFTF and BN-800 point the way. Japan shows you how not to do it. (Not detect the fire for a long time, lie to the media about how bad the damage was)
- marcosdumay 5y ago
  > You detect them and put them out. Well, not molten sodium. You don't put it out. You isolate the fire and let it run.
  - PaulHoule 5y ago
    See https://www.osti.gov/biblio/6669413-xoXD4J/ https://www.osti.gov/biblio/6669413-xoXD4J/
- mumblemumble 5y ago
  > Fires happen all the time in industrial facilities. You detect them and put them out. When we're talking about sodium fires in a nuclear facility, though, this comment reads to me like possibly a wry joke? I'm not even 100% sure it wasn't one, so apologies if I am responding inappropriately. It rather reminds me of an emergency physician I know who likes to comment that gunshot wounds are easy to treat; it's mostly a matter of plugging the hole. He enjoys seeing how saying it makes people squirm.
  - PaulHoule 5y ago
    It's meant to be serious and funny at the same time. Sodium fires are a real problem but they are manageable. If you detect the fires and put them out they are a minor problem. If you let the fires get out of control, let them wreck the equipment room next to the reactor, then try to cover up how bad the damage was to the media that is the Japanese experience with Monju. People don't realize that Japan led the world in nuclear accidents from 1990 until Fukushima. There is something badly wrong with their safety culture that led to problems at Tokaimura and Monju and their choice to not install a proper backup electrical system at Fukushima. Choosing not to spend $1M to fortify their diesel generators that would have saved billions and billions. Remember it is a choice. USA and Russia have dealt with the problem realistically and run beautiful and clean machines with sodium coolant. This is one of the nicest industrial facilities I have ever seen: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0Cx2nZTgQg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0Cx2nZTgQg
    - jason0597 5y ago
      > There is something badly wrong with their safety culture I would not be surprised at all if their hierarchical culture and fear of speaking up to superiors played into a lot of these accidents.
HPsquared 5y ago
Keep it inside the box I suppose, same principle as keeping the nuclear stuff safe.
- PaulHoule 5y ago
  Sometimes you open the box. There could be 'cartridge reactors' that live in a stylish hutch and only get opened at the factory, but if this is the first one they will probably need to open it and poke around inside for some reason. Even if it only gets opened at the factory then you have to worry about the factory.
  - marcosdumay 5y ago
    That one is reasonably easy. You make sure that you only open the box when it's not molten. It's much easier than the nuclear part.
    - PaulHoule 5y ago
      If the sodium is cold you will have the hardest time getting the fuel rods in and out to refuel.
    - ClumsyPilot 5y ago
      If sodium solidifies, you gace ruined the reactor - its a metal solid mass in your pipes

Every time I hear "liquid sodium" I think "run away!" How in the world would you make that safe even without the nuclear stuff?

by api 5y ago

Every time I hear "liquid sodium" I think "run away!" How in the world would you make that safe even without the nuclear stuff?

PaulHoule 5y ago

(1) Argon cover gas (2) Fires happen all the time in industrial facilities. You detect them and put them out. US and Russian literature tells you how it is done. EBR-II, FFTF and BN-800 point the way. Japan shows you how not to do it. (Not detect the fire for a long time, lie to the media about how bad the damage was)

marcosdumay 5y ago
> You detect them and put them out. Well, not molten sodium. You don't put it out. You isolate the fire and let it run.
- PaulHoule 5y ago
  See https://www.osti.gov/biblio/6669413-xoXD4J/ https://www.osti.gov/biblio/6669413-xoXD4J/
mumblemumble 5y ago
> Fires happen all the time in industrial facilities. You detect them and put them out. When we're talking about sodium fires in a nuclear facility, though, this comment reads to me like possibly a wry joke? I'm not even 100% sure it wasn't one, so apologies if I am responding inappropriately. It rather reminds me of an emergency physician I know who likes to comment that gunshot wounds are easy to treat; it's mostly a matter of plugging the hole. He enjoys seeing how saying it makes people squirm.
- PaulHoule 5y ago
  It's meant to be serious and funny at the same time. Sodium fires are a real problem but they are manageable. If you detect the fires and put them out they are a minor problem. If you let the fires get out of control, let them wreck the equipment room next to the reactor, then try to cover up how bad the damage was to the media that is the Japanese experience with Monju. People don't realize that Japan led the world in nuclear accidents from 1990 until Fukushima. There is something badly wrong with their safety culture that led to problems at Tokaimura and Monju and their choice to not install a proper backup electrical system at Fukushima. Choosing not to spend $1M to fortify their diesel generators that would have saved billions and billions. Remember it is a choice. USA and Russia have dealt with the problem realistically and run beautiful and clean machines with sodium coolant. This is one of the nicest industrial facilities I have ever seen: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0Cx2nZTgQg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0Cx2nZTgQg
  - jason0597 5y ago
    > There is something badly wrong with their safety culture I would not be surprised at all if their hierarchical culture and fear of speaking up to superiors played into a lot of these accidents.

HPsquared 5y ago

Keep it inside the box I suppose, same principle as keeping the nuclear stuff safe.

PaulHoule 5y ago
Sometimes you open the box. There could be 'cartridge reactors' that live in a stylish hutch and only get opened at the factory, but if this is the first one they will probably need to open it and poke around inside for some reason. Even if it only gets opened at the factory then you have to worry about the factory.
- marcosdumay 5y ago
  That one is reasonably easy. You make sure that you only open the box when it's not molten. It's much easier than the nuclear part.
  - PaulHoule 5y ago
    If the sodium is cold you will have the hardest time getting the fuel rods in and out to refuel.
  - ClumsyPilot 5y ago
    If sodium solidifies, you gace ruined the reactor - its a metal solid mass in your pipes