10 ms·

Why is compensation #1 though? There is a threshold where you have enough money and it's easier to work with people you know and like. So, what do they need tha

Why is compensation #1 though? There is a threshold where you have enough money and it's easier to work with people you know and like. So, what do they need that extra money for? As I mentioned elsewhere housing is currently the #1 issues I see here in Canada that people are focused on. If you are a front line person, making $15 at a restaurant, plus renting where housing costs $1m+, you are probably looking for options (vs someone who owns a house and is making $150/hour as a dev). This is a leading question to expand on why compensation matters. Personally, I fall into the group where I could probably make more but really like my group. So, there is risk with leaving (bad boss, toxic culture, too much work, etc) vs making more.

mym1990 5y ago
Most people are not making 400k as a dev. People are leaving due to compensation because it is a strong market for seekers right now, and all things equal it is not rational to leave 20k+ a year on the table if you have even partially complete information(which a lot of people do nowadays).
- t-writescode 5y ago
  Might be worth saying "it is not rational to leave a 15% pay increase on the table" than 20k. At 200k / year, I would absolutely ignore a 20k pay increase if company culture sucked.
hiq 5y ago
> So, what do they need that extra money for? FIRE. Money buys a lot beyond your monthly food and rent. > I fall into the group where I could probably make more If you don't know for sure it's also hard to judge if you're making the right decision. I also wouldn't risk a nice and stable situation for a +5%, but recent threads on HN have been mentioning way higher bumps lately, hence compensation #1 (again on HN, SV-centered etc.). > there is risk with leaving (bad boss, toxic culture, too much work, etc) The chance goes both ways though, there's also a chance you might end up at a better place on top of a better compensation. If you're risk-averse that might not be for you, but there's probably a compensation bump at which it makes sense even if you're risk-averse.
infamouscow 5y ago
I'm single, in my late 20s, and live alone in a big city. When $PREV_EMPLOYER closed the office in early 2020 and everyone shifted to remote work, I learned how much I depended on coworkers for daily social interaction. My friends live far away, so the last two years has been extremely isolating and lonely. That lack of socialization meant work rapidly deteriorated into "just a paycheck" territory, and once that happens, there's no going back.
dt3ft 5y ago
Retirement. I invest excess into sp500 and bonds and plan to retire early. Comp is a big factor here.
hysan 5y ago
> Why is compensation #1 though? If you view this multi-answer poll from the opposite perspective, the question is, when would someone leave for a lower compensation job? I suspect that would be an extremely low number. Higher on HN because of the demographic, but still low.
argvargc 5y ago
With "compensation" winning maybe it's relevant to think about the effects of runaway inflation. Currently getting up to ~10% (US). It would make sense as peoples purchasing power diminishes they reassess their earning potential.
runako 5y ago
You answer your question in your post: > $150/hour as a dev That's about $25k/mo gross. Minus ~50% for taxes and vacation (hourly pay means you buy your vacation). So call it $13k net. > housing costs $1m+ If you live in a top 10 major metro in the US, this is your city. So call housing ~$4k if you have a family. Now you're at $9k. Buy health insurance for $1500, tally at $7500. Did you mean to save 15% of your gross income, as is the guidance? Minus another $3,750. Tally at $3,750. You haven't bought food or paid for transportation, vacations, clothing, etc. yet. You're not an intense saver, so you need to be confident you can earn at this level for decades to come. You probably are in the process of eating the inflation of '21 & '22 as your contract is not going to re-price automatically, so your earning power is being eroded. This is why people are pushing to earn more. If you are fortunate enough to have a spouse who is also a high earner, great.
- liketochill 5y ago
  Where I live a single family home starts at 1.3 million and townhouses are 1.2 CAD, in a town of 20,000 45 minutes from a major city. $150 an hour is a charge out rate for a professional engineer not in programming or IT, and trades are closer to $100. $150/hr on salary you probably are in business consulting with a phd and charge out at $400/hr. $9k usd/mo after paying taxes and for housing is not something that’s readily available here, I don’t think even in IT.
  - __turbobrew__ 5y ago
    Do you like rock climbing too? Heh
    - liketochill 5y ago
      Not yet… but mountain biking
  - runako 5y ago
    I was being generous to the poster, but also I was assuming hourly was not salary but rather a contract/freelance rate.
humanrebar 5y ago
Inflation went up 7% in 2021. Inflation in popular urban markets was worse. Market rate for good engineers probably went up more than that. Even a 10% pay raise was meh with that in mind. How many engineering companies are prepared to give 15-20% pay raises to keep up with these kinds of conditions? How many are handing out 7% adjustments proudly?
snerbles 5y ago
> Why is compensation #1 though? > There is a threshold where you have enough money. You've answered your own question.
hkt 5y ago
The threshold where you have enough has been driven up by crazy rents and house prices. Personally, I want my house paid off before I'm 40, so I shoot for maximum earnings and remote work that lets me live in a cheaper place. That ratio makes my ambition very attainable. Related is the sustainability of work: I don't want to need high earnings past 40. I want to retire into a second career I'll find more fulfilling but which might pay dramatically less. Higher pay now is the only way I can achieve this.
- mattwad 5y ago
  not a bad idea!
- foobarian 5y ago
  Why would you pay off your house when you can keep the cash in an investment account making > 5% APR vs. the house loan which presumably is in the low 3s.
  - hkt 5y ago
    Risk. I'm just old enough to remember what the financial crisis did to people's pensions. I'm happier to take risks with the rest of my money if my home isn't exposed to them. During a crash I'd expect to lose on both earnings and investments. Losing my home as well would suck.
  - jokethrowaway 5y ago
    I don't trust banks, the market and the governments manipulating them. You never know when they're going to pull the rug from the infinite growth market. Maybe Crypto will do that? Maybe a few more years of lockdown? Who knows? I agree that it's an unlikely scenario, but I'd rather be poorer and own my house than be dependant on a bank - even if that means compromising on its size or location.
  - tome 5y ago
    Where are you getting 5% interest? Best I can find in the UK is about 2% on low balances.
  - 5y ago
aprdm 5y ago
Who is making 150/hour and owns a house as a dev in Canada ? Nobody that works for Canadian companies that’s for sure
- bluefirebrand 5y ago
  I work as a dev in Canada, for a Canadian company, and I own a house here. I'm not making $150 an hour though. I also don't live in Toronto, Vancouver, or Victoria.
- YZF 5y ago
  I own my house in Canada (Vancouver area). I owned my house in Canada 20 years ago. Some of the younger people on my team can buy into this market because they've had the luck of working for a company that grew a lot and joining at the right time. Otherwise it's pretty tough. I got where I am over my very long career.
- WestCoastJustin 5y ago
  Yes, if you live in Canada and work remotely for a US company.
  - abstract_put 5y ago
    What percentage of developers in Canada do you believe are making >= 150$/hour? People generally aren't that forthcoming with salaries but I'm not sure if I know anyone making >= 200k/year CAD. Am I in a bubble and should go job hunting?
    - YZF 5y ago
      Those jobs are out there. Depends on what area you're in and your level. Total comp.
      - liketochill 5y ago
        Total comp it’s not that out it sight, $120k per year plus bonus plus pension can hit $200k at the right government outfit but $120k per year is $60 hr not $150
biohax2015 5y ago
> Why is compensation #1 though? Is this a serious question?
joe_fishfish 5y ago
Do you know anyone where that threshold has been reached? Anyone with a family? Given the way inflation is going, I know maybe one person, and they're single with their mortgage paid off.
- beanjuiceII 5y ago
  I recently just left my job for another because of inflation, if the price of things go up so should my salary. The value of my work did not get cheaper!
  - humanrebar 5y ago
    Not tying my job to expensive urban markets would help! But I'm hesitant to describe my salary needs in terms of my household costs. I want to get paid by the value I bring first and foremost. And, similarly, what the market clearing rate for an engineer with my capabilities is. Not "market rate" unless I'm truly a median engineer, especially since companies tend to be underinformed about market rates.
- YZF 5y ago
  If you're invested in a diversified portfolio then inflation shouldn't really make a big difference. So I think this is really some variation of FIRE 4% ... If you can live off 4% of your savings per year then the rest of it is just do you want to work more so you can buy more stuff ;) I'm sort of in the same position as the parent. I've crossed the threshold, a little more money or a little less money makes no difference to me. I don't buy stuff I don't need. The amount of money that'll completely change my life is like x10 so likely won't happen (so moving from the "have enough" to the "mildly rich" category) and really I'm not sure that would mean anything to me anyways... I want work that I can enjoy, with good people, that challenges me, and pretty much all the pay in the world won't make me go work for some sucky place (ofcourse everyone has their price, but my price would be higher than what they'd be willing to pay).
deepsquirrelnet 5y ago
The format of the poll biases the results. You can select multiple options, and compensation might be the one that most people have in common -- but not necessarily the reason why people are leaving. In other words, I think the results can only show motivating factors, but can't satisfy it as a sufficient condition for departure.
- calchris42 5y ago
  +1 anecdotally I think it is often a combination of factors. And once you start looking/ exploring and realize you can get a comp adjustment, then that becomes an easily quantified motivator to pull the trigger.
sokoloff 5y ago
Personally, I’m still building for retirement. I have way more than enough to live every month, but way less than I’ll need to retire and be able to spend my early retirement (healthiest remaining) years traveling and still be confident that my spouse (with longevity in her family) will be well taken care of financially if she lives as long as the rest of her family tends to. Retirement savings (and to a lesser extent because the numbers are way smaller, college savings) drive the need to accumulate 25x your annual expenses.
- ryandrake 5y ago
  Yes. Even if I had my every theoretical need and want covered by my salary, it still makes sense to go for more, because it just goes right into savings and reduces my retirement age by X. I have a sign "The Goal is to not have to work" right above my monitor in my home office. Every career/learning/spending/saving decision I make is in furtherance of this goal.
jokethrowaway 5y ago
Even people earning top 3% of salaries find houses to be expensive and most people will get indebted to buy a house. This is normality nowadays. Money will always be a concern for the majority. That said, I agree that once you've bought a house, you can cover your expenses and holidays, who cares about making more money. It's just not a very common position.
thrill 5y ago
They want that extra compensation for whatever they want it for. That's the thing about being paid a fungible - it puts the freedom to decide what to do with it where it belongs. A publicly traded company I left some years ago had dozens of different little "things" they offered instead of better salary and/or better hours for the salary paid. They're now worth a tenth of what they were when I departed.

mym1990 5y ago

Most people are not making 400k as a dev. People are leaving due to compensation because it is a strong market for seekers right now, and all things equal it is not rational to leave 20k+ a year on the table if you have even partially complete information(which a lot of people do nowadays).

t-writescode 5y ago
Might be worth saying "it is not rational to leave a 15% pay increase on the table" than 20k. At 200k / year, I would absolutely ignore a 20k pay increase if company culture sucked.

hiq 5y ago

> So, what do they need that extra money for? FIRE. Money buys a lot beyond your monthly food and rent. > I fall into the group where I could probably make more If you don't know for sure it's also hard to judge if you're making the right decision. I also wouldn't risk a nice and stable situation for a +5%, but recent threads on HN have been mentioning way higher bumps lately, hence compensation #1 (again on HN, SV-centered etc.). > there is risk with leaving (bad boss, toxic culture, too much work, etc) The chance goes both ways though, there's also a chance you might end up at a better place on top of a better compensation. If you're risk-averse that might not be for you, but there's probably a compensation bump at which it makes sense even if you're risk-averse.

infamouscow 5y ago

I'm single, in my late 20s, and live alone in a big city. When $PREV_EMPLOYER closed the office in early 2020 and everyone shifted to remote work, I learned how much I depended on coworkers for daily social interaction. My friends live far away, so the last two years has been extremely isolating and lonely. That lack of socialization meant work rapidly deteriorated into "just a paycheck" territory, and once that happens, there's no going back.

dt3ft 5y ago

Retirement. I invest excess into sp500 and bonds and plan to retire early. Comp is a big factor here.

hysan 5y ago

> Why is compensation #1 though? If you view this multi-answer poll from the opposite perspective, the question is, when would someone leave for a lower compensation job? I suspect that would be an extremely low number. Higher on HN because of the demographic, but still low.

argvargc 5y ago

With "compensation" winning maybe it's relevant to think about the effects of runaway inflation. Currently getting up to ~10% (US). It would make sense as peoples purchasing power diminishes they reassess their earning potential.

runako 5y ago

You answer your question in your post: > $150/hour as a dev That's about $25k/mo gross. Minus ~50% for taxes and vacation (hourly pay means you buy your vacation). So call it $13k net. > housing costs $1m+ If you live in a top 10 major metro in the US, this is your city. So call housing ~$4k if you have a family. Now you're at $9k. Buy health insurance for $1500, tally at $7500. Did you mean to save 15% of your gross income, as is the guidance? Minus another $3,750. Tally at $3,750. You haven't bought food or paid for transportation, vacations, clothing, etc. yet. You're not an intense saver, so you need to be confident you can earn at this level for decades to come. You probably are in the process of eating the inflation of '21 & '22 as your contract is not going to re-price automatically, so your earning power is being eroded. This is why people are pushing to earn more. If you are fortunate enough to have a spouse who is also a high earner, great.

liketochill 5y ago
Where I live a single family home starts at 1.3 million and townhouses are 1.2 CAD, in a town of 20,000 45 minutes from a major city. $150 an hour is a charge out rate for a professional engineer not in programming or IT, and trades are closer to $100. $150/hr on salary you probably are in business consulting with a phd and charge out at $400/hr. $9k usd/mo after paying taxes and for housing is not something that’s readily available here, I don’t think even in IT.
- __turbobrew__ 5y ago
  Do you like rock climbing too? Heh
  - liketochill 5y ago
    Not yet… but mountain biking
- runako 5y ago
  I was being generous to the poster, but also I was assuming hourly was not salary but rather a contract/freelance rate.

humanrebar 5y ago

Inflation went up 7% in 2021. Inflation in popular urban markets was worse. Market rate for good engineers probably went up more than that. Even a 10% pay raise was meh with that in mind. How many engineering companies are prepared to give 15-20% pay raises to keep up with these kinds of conditions? How many are handing out 7% adjustments proudly?

snerbles 5y ago

> Why is compensation #1 though? > There is a threshold where you have enough money. You've answered your own question.

hkt 5y ago

The threshold where you have enough has been driven up by crazy rents and house prices. Personally, I want my house paid off before I'm 40, so I shoot for maximum earnings and remote work that lets me live in a cheaper place. That ratio makes my ambition very attainable. Related is the sustainability of work: I don't want to need high earnings past 40. I want to retire into a second career I'll find more fulfilling but which might pay dramatically less. Higher pay now is the only way I can achieve this.

mattwad 5y ago
not a bad idea!
foobarian 5y ago
Why would you pay off your house when you can keep the cash in an investment account making > 5% APR vs. the house loan which presumably is in the low 3s.
- hkt 5y ago
  Risk. I'm just old enough to remember what the financial crisis did to people's pensions. I'm happier to take risks with the rest of my money if my home isn't exposed to them. During a crash I'd expect to lose on both earnings and investments. Losing my home as well would suck.
- jokethrowaway 5y ago
  I don't trust banks, the market and the governments manipulating them. You never know when they're going to pull the rug from the infinite growth market. Maybe Crypto will do that? Maybe a few more years of lockdown? Who knows? I agree that it's an unlikely scenario, but I'd rather be poorer and own my house than be dependant on a bank - even if that means compromising on its size or location.
- tome 5y ago
  Where are you getting 5% interest? Best I can find in the UK is about 2% on low balances.
- 5y ago

aprdm 5y ago

Who is making 150/hour and owns a house as a dev in Canada ? Nobody that works for Canadian companies that’s for sure

bluefirebrand 5y ago
I work as a dev in Canada, for a Canadian company, and I own a house here. I'm not making $150 an hour though. I also don't live in Toronto, Vancouver, or Victoria.
YZF 5y ago
I own my house in Canada (Vancouver area). I owned my house in Canada 20 years ago. Some of the younger people on my team can buy into this market because they've had the luck of working for a company that grew a lot and joining at the right time. Otherwise it's pretty tough. I got where I am over my very long career.
WestCoastJustin 5y ago
Yes, if you live in Canada and work remotely for a US company.
- abstract_put 5y ago
  What percentage of developers in Canada do you believe are making >= 150$/hour? People generally aren't that forthcoming with salaries but I'm not sure if I know anyone making >= 200k/year CAD. Am I in a bubble and should go job hunting?
  - YZF 5y ago
    Those jobs are out there. Depends on what area you're in and your level. Total comp.
    - liketochill 5y ago
      Total comp it’s not that out it sight, $120k per year plus bonus plus pension can hit $200k at the right government outfit but $120k per year is $60 hr not $150

biohax2015 5y ago

> Why is compensation #1 though? Is this a serious question?

joe_fishfish 5y ago

Do you know anyone where that threshold has been reached? Anyone with a family? Given the way inflation is going, I know maybe one person, and they're single with their mortgage paid off.

beanjuiceII 5y ago
I recently just left my job for another because of inflation, if the price of things go up so should my salary. The value of my work did not get cheaper!
- humanrebar 5y ago
  Not tying my job to expensive urban markets would help! But I'm hesitant to describe my salary needs in terms of my household costs. I want to get paid by the value I bring first and foremost. And, similarly, what the market clearing rate for an engineer with my capabilities is. Not "market rate" unless I'm truly a median engineer, especially since companies tend to be underinformed about market rates.
YZF 5y ago
If you're invested in a diversified portfolio then inflation shouldn't really make a big difference. So I think this is really some variation of FIRE 4% ... If you can live off 4% of your savings per year then the rest of it is just do you want to work more so you can buy more stuff ;) I'm sort of in the same position as the parent. I've crossed the threshold, a little more money or a little less money makes no difference to me. I don't buy stuff I don't need. The amount of money that'll completely change my life is like x10 so likely won't happen (so moving from the "have enough" to the "mildly rich" category) and really I'm not sure that would mean anything to me anyways... I want work that I can enjoy, with good people, that challenges me, and pretty much all the pay in the world won't make me go work for some sucky place (ofcourse everyone has their price, but my price would be higher than what they'd be willing to pay).

deepsquirrelnet 5y ago

The format of the poll biases the results. You can select multiple options, and compensation might be the one that most people have in common -- but not necessarily the reason why people are leaving. In other words, I think the results can only show motivating factors, but can't satisfy it as a sufficient condition for departure.

calchris42 5y ago
+1 anecdotally I think it is often a combination of factors. And once you start looking/ exploring and realize you can get a comp adjustment, then that becomes an easily quantified motivator to pull the trigger.

sokoloff 5y ago

Personally, I’m still building for retirement. I have way more than enough to live every month, but way less than I’ll need to retire and be able to spend my early retirement (healthiest remaining) years traveling and still be confident that my spouse (with longevity in her family) will be well taken care of financially if she lives as long as the rest of her family tends to. Retirement savings (and to a lesser extent because the numbers are way smaller, college savings) drive the need to accumulate 25x your annual expenses.

ryandrake 5y ago
Yes. Even if I had my every theoretical need and want covered by my salary, it still makes sense to go for more, because it just goes right into savings and reduces my retirement age by X. I have a sign "The Goal is to not have to work" right above my monitor in my home office. Every career/learning/spending/saving decision I make is in furtherance of this goal.

jokethrowaway 5y ago

Even people earning top 3% of salaries find houses to be expensive and most people will get indebted to buy a house. This is normality nowadays. Money will always be a concern for the majority. That said, I agree that once you've bought a house, you can cover your expenses and holidays, who cares about making more money. It's just not a very common position.

thrill 5y ago

They want that extra compensation for whatever they want it for. That's the thing about being paid a fungible - it puts the freedom to decide what to do with it where it belongs. A publicly traded company I left some years ago had dozens of different little "things" they offered instead of better salary and/or better hours for the salary paid. They're now worth a tenth of what they were when I departed.