24 ms·

I think the old generation really bought into this, but the new generation knows it's a load of bull. The poll makes it pretty obvious that compensation is the

by diob 5y ago

I think the old generation really bought into this, but the new generation knows it's a load of bull. The poll makes it pretty obvious that compensation is the biggest reason folks leave, and it's the thinking of the old generation who doesn't know how to retain talent (they do, but they keep throwing pizza parties / sending out merch instead). It's a real "it can't be helped" mentality around retention.

HideousKojima 5y ago
Strong disagree for me. I'm starting a new job in less than two weeks, but the current job I'm leaving has been the best so far in my career. Wasn't perfect by any means but it exceeded most of my expectations by far. My new job is paying 60% more than my current job, that's my reason for switching and not much else.
- Osiris 5y ago
  If you were so happy why did you start looking for another job? People don't leave because someone gave them an offer out of the blue. They have to start looking in the first place and whatever triggered that search is what's important.
  - j4yav 5y ago
    Recruiters are constantly contacting people these days. Some companies have reputations for paying well, so when you hear from them you sort of know what is coming.
  - hiq 5y ago
    > why did you start looking for another job? I can think of the following, and there are probably others: 1. To know your market value so that you know what to ask for during your compensation review at your current company. 2. To practice interviewing skills when you don't need them, so that it's easier when you do 3. To network and learn about companies that might be relevant for you in the future (as in, you wouldn't accept an offer now, but if it looks nice you might apply again later, and if it doesn't you might consider it only as a last resort). 2. especially makes sense for coding interviews, and I've been advising the following to a few friends: ideally, one year before you actually want to apply, apply everywhere you can with such interviews. Your results won't matter anyway, you'll be able to apply again one year after, but you'll get a lot of real-world practice and an idea of what you might want to work on.
  - dt3ft 5y ago
    In my case I did not look for another job. I was scouted (ex boss recommendation) and took the offer. I bet there are many others like me - frequently getting offers.
  - TulliusCicero 5y ago
    It can be true that the job itself is largely great and also that the person knows they could get a lot more money elsewhere, which causes them to start looking.
  - HideousKojima 5y ago
    Because I'm trying to start a family and to move into a bigger house, and I knew that there were little to no opportunities for advancement/promotion at my current job. It's really not that complicated.
    - manquer 5y ago
      You were unhappy there were no advancement opportunities so you started looking?, OP is saying the same thing, if it was perfect people generally don't look for new jobs. It is not because of loyalty it is because we are risk averse, a new job is a lot of risk. Many things can go wrong you may not like that new job, or even purely financially it can be risky as a new company may not pay as promised, shutdown, you get fired pretty quick and may not find a job at same compensation , or variable/ equity compensation wasn't as good as promised/imagined. All of these scenarios have substantial financial risk. To take that risk(even if only financial) there has to strong motivation.
      - HideousKojima 5y ago
        If I could have stayed doing the same thing I was (software development) for more pay I would have stayed. Might have gotten a bit stagnant/boring in a few more years but I would have been happy until then at least. The only potential advancement opportunity (salary-wise) would have involved changing over to being a DBA or a sort of DBA/developer hybrid role which would have been interesting (I would definitely prefer the hybrid role to being a pure DBA) but some statements from higher-ups about hiring freezes etc. made it clear that wouldn't happen any time soon (even though my direct manager was supportive and trying to help).
  - jahewson 5y ago
    This is not true at all. I get 3-5 recruiter emails per day many of which state comp up-front. Recently the numbers have got so high that I have to admit, it’s tempting, despite being perfectly happy in my current role.
    - lazyasciiart 5y ago
      Maybe I should start opening those recruiter emails - I don't think the ones I have read ever included salary info...
      - HideousKojima 5y ago
        At least on Indeed 1/2 to 2/3rds of job postings for C# developers include salary ranges, and I'm sure it's similar for other languages. It's pretty nice for getting an idea of what you're worth.
  - lotsofpulp 5y ago
    I assume many people are smart enough to know that they need to increase earnings to gain security in life and stay ahead of inflation. Me being content at work is not going to pay the kids’ tuition, healthcare, or legal expenses. Or my expenses in 40 years. A large amount of assets yielding healthy levels of passive income will.
  - tester756 5y ago
    > People don't leave because someone gave them an offer out of the blue. They have to start looking in the first place and whatever triggered that search is what's important. You don't have to look around to know that you're underpaid, just talk to people from industry and they'll tell ya
  - mehphp 5y ago
    That's not true at all. I just switched a few weeks ago for a 50% increase that I did indeed receive "out of the blue". Emailed by a recruiter, I turned them down, they were persistent, and I took it. I was not actively looking and the thought of leaving hadn't crossed my mind.
  - politician 5y ago
    7% inflation is enough for some people to start looking.
  - __turbobrew__ 5y ago
    Inflation, cost of housing skyrocketing, etc. I’m looking for a new job because my current one does not pay enough to own a house any more. You basically have to make FAANG bux to own a house here so that is why I started looking. Otherwise I have quite high job satisfaction.
- skinkestek 5y ago
  Late, but I will note that the more people pay the nicer they treat you and the less they expect from you.
jjav 5y ago
I do find it surprising compensation is at the top. I've never changed jobs over money. In fact several times I've taken new jobs that pay less on the promise of it being more fun. Which is not to say I'll work for unreasonably low pay, I talk comp ranges with recruiters first to know if it is worth continuing the discussion. But beyond a reasonable point, more pay doesn't make any difference (well, unless it's like 20x more, but nobody is offering that). A pleasant working environment, interesting projects, ownership, sane management, being respected, work/life balance and vacations; all of these are to me a lot more important than +/- 100K of pay.
- manquer 5y ago
  If the compensation does not impact basic lifestyle, then yes people do like to choose better /interesting jobs provided their hygiene needs are getting met, that is becoming harder every year. Rents/ Mortgages / College Fees are all climbing higher than compensation increases at the entry level. Even in tech there are a plenty of people paid less than 80 or 90k. On top of that these hefty student loans and high rent , steep mortgages that today's emerging work force is burdened with, it is not easy to ignore even small financial incentives when they are always trying to make ends meet and have to make basic quality of life sacrifices.
  - humanrebar 5y ago
    Compensation always affects lifestyle. If nothing else, it lets you spend your way to a negligible commute.
    - manquer 5y ago
      My point is not that compensation won't change lifestyle, it was that for basic needs lifestyle there is a compensation required ( i.e. living wage), people don't have luxury of choosing a more fulfilling job unless they are above that number. --- Basic needs is somewhat commonly used term [1], while what is basic in one location or country is not same everywhere and there are degrees of subjectivity to it. It is quite politicized and US Census threshold of $25,000 /year for family of four is ludicrously low as defined today. [2] While there can be arguments on what the number should be and even what constitutes basic needs, the idea of basic needs itself shouldn't be controversial IMHO that in locations where traditionally you get a tech job it is higher than even 80-90k factoring in mortgages and student loans, things that are not included in U.S. Census Bureau methodology. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_needs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_needs [2] The reasons for such low bar is political, the methods used reflect that, one example is using a single number nationally is an insidious choice. Cost of Living in NY or the Bay Area,CA does not compare to say rural Montana . A sizable portion of the population lives in high density high cost of living parts of the country (jobs are there) and the number does not reflect that or is weighted by where the population actually live. There are plenty of other criticisms, on what is being included with what weight etc.
brailsafe 5y ago
The poll does not make that obvious. The poll reflects that being one of the reasons that someone will have or has considered it. I upvoted 3 options even though I've been fired from all my jobs, because those are all factors I considered. It may or may not have been the most important consideration
srcreigh 5y ago
Incorrect. The poll makes it clear compensation is the most common factor. It could be consistent #2 or #3 reason
davidw 5y ago
More is certainly better, but at a certain point, you kind of know where the industry is, and that you're probably not going to get a radical bump (although maybe right now you are?), so while it still counts, you start looking at the other factors more.
deltaonefour 5y ago
The poll is messing with your way of thinking. Look at the poll and think on this statement: "The majority of people leave a company because they are unsatisfied, not because of compensation." The poll statistically verifies the above statement as true. Its just divided in a way that makes you think compensation is the main reason. Still what the poll does show is that compensation is a significant factor, more than ever before.
- cloverich 5y ago
  To rephrase: Compensation has fewer total than the others combined. E.g. people leave more often for non-compensation reasons. (Added in case you were being mis-interpreted, e.g. the downvotes. I think its an important and insightful point)
  - dmoy 5y ago
    You can vote for multiple options in the poll, so this isn't really possible to unpack from the given numbers.
- m3047 5y ago
  "Compensation" needs to be unpacked. It includes healthcare, contractual and scheduling freedom to pursue side projects, and company sponsored and encouraged opportunities for self-investment in skills and learning. Most of those "other" things are nontaxable.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
WestCoastJustin 5y ago
Why is compensation #1 though? There is a threshold where you have enough money and it's easier to work with people you know and like. So, what do they need that extra money for? As I mentioned elsewhere housing is currently the #1 issues I see here in Canada that people are focused on. If you are a front line person, making $15 at a restaurant, plus renting where housing costs $1m+, you are probably looking for options (vs someone who owns a house and is making $150/hour as a dev). This is a leading question to expand on why compensation matters. Personally, I fall into the group where I could probably make more but really like my group. So, there is risk with leaving (bad boss, toxic culture, too much work, etc) vs making more.
- mym1990 5y ago
  Most people are not making 400k as a dev. People are leaving due to compensation because it is a strong market for seekers right now, and all things equal it is not rational to leave 20k+ a year on the table if you have even partially complete information(which a lot of people do nowadays).
  - t-writescode 5y ago
    Might be worth saying "it is not rational to leave a 15% pay increase on the table" than 20k. At 200k / year, I would absolutely ignore a 20k pay increase if company culture sucked.
- hiq 5y ago
  > So, what do they need that extra money for? FIRE. Money buys a lot beyond your monthly food and rent. > I fall into the group where I could probably make more If you don't know for sure it's also hard to judge if you're making the right decision. I also wouldn't risk a nice and stable situation for a +5%, but recent threads on HN have been mentioning way higher bumps lately, hence compensation #1 (again on HN, SV-centered etc.). > there is risk with leaving (bad boss, toxic culture, too much work, etc) The chance goes both ways though, there's also a chance you might end up at a better place on top of a better compensation. If you're risk-averse that might not be for you, but there's probably a compensation bump at which it makes sense even if you're risk-averse.
DylanBohlender 5y ago
I like the notion of breaking job satisfaction into "motivators" and "hygiene factors" (Herzberg's motivation-hygiene theory [1]). Motivators actively cause job satisfaction. Things like finding personal fulfillment, meaningful work, and other top-of-Maslow's-hierarchy stuff. Hygiene factors cause dissatisfaction in their absence, but aren't standalone motivators. Salary probably fits in this bucket - if you learn that you're underpaid, you're likely to feel demotivated and look for work elsewhere. If you learn that you're overpaid, that can cause dissatisfaction too (feeling like you have to serve out the rest of a prison sentence until your shares/options vest is pretty common in our industry). Compensation isn't everything, but if it seems unfair, it's absolutely enough to motivate people to make changes. I think we're seeing a reevaluation of labor market expectations with the whole Great Resignation thing, where those who are in demand are realizing just how demanded their skills are (and getting pissed off that they're undercompensated in their $current_job), and the old generation you speak of is trotting forward with their fingers in their ears, blinded by normalcy bias to the fundamental shift happening in front of them - a big labor market awakening. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-factor_theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-factor_theory
- lazyasciiart 5y ago
  Also called 'table stakes', or 'must haves' in product development.
- miscaccount 5y ago
  And the executive compensation, is available to every employee. The age where management claim to have no money , internally giving huge bonus to themselves cannot be pulled anymore.
artificialLimbs 5y ago
Could just be a due to a lack of awareness. Some people will leave a low stress/low-moderate wage job for a high stress, high wage job, but end up with a drug habit/in a mental ward/jail and then wonder for years what the cause of the trouble was. I've seen it happen a number of times.

by diob 5y ago

HideousKojima 5y ago

Strong disagree for me. I'm starting a new job in less than two weeks, but the current job I'm leaving has been the best so far in my career. Wasn't perfect by any means but it exceeded most of my expectations by far. My new job is paying 60% more than my current job, that's my reason for switching and not much else.

Osiris 5y ago
If you were so happy why did you start looking for another job? People don't leave because someone gave them an offer out of the blue. They have to start looking in the first place and whatever triggered that search is what's important.
- j4yav 5y ago
  Recruiters are constantly contacting people these days. Some companies have reputations for paying well, so when you hear from them you sort of know what is coming.
- hiq 5y ago
  > why did you start looking for another job? I can think of the following, and there are probably others: 1. To know your market value so that you know what to ask for during your compensation review at your current company. 2. To practice interviewing skills when you don't need them, so that it's easier when you do 3. To network and learn about companies that might be relevant for you in the future (as in, you wouldn't accept an offer now, but if it looks nice you might apply again later, and if it doesn't you might consider it only as a last resort). 2. especially makes sense for coding interviews, and I've been advising the following to a few friends: ideally, one year before you actually want to apply, apply everywhere you can with such interviews. Your results won't matter anyway, you'll be able to apply again one year after, but you'll get a lot of real-world practice and an idea of what you might want to work on.
- dt3ft 5y ago
  In my case I did not look for another job. I was scouted (ex boss recommendation) and took the offer. I bet there are many others like me - frequently getting offers.
- TulliusCicero 5y ago
  It can be true that the job itself is largely great and also that the person knows they could get a lot more money elsewhere, which causes them to start looking.
- HideousKojima 5y ago
  Because I'm trying to start a family and to move into a bigger house, and I knew that there were little to no opportunities for advancement/promotion at my current job. It's really not that complicated.
  - manquer 5y ago
    You were unhappy there were no advancement opportunities so you started looking?, OP is saying the same thing, if it was perfect people generally don't look for new jobs. It is not because of loyalty it is because we are risk averse, a new job is a lot of risk. Many things can go wrong you may not like that new job, or even purely financially it can be risky as a new company may not pay as promised, shutdown, you get fired pretty quick and may not find a job at same compensation , or variable/ equity compensation wasn't as good as promised/imagined. All of these scenarios have substantial financial risk. To take that risk(even if only financial) there has to strong motivation.
    - HideousKojima 5y ago
      If I could have stayed doing the same thing I was (software development) for more pay I would have stayed. Might have gotten a bit stagnant/boring in a few more years but I would have been happy until then at least. The only potential advancement opportunity (salary-wise) would have involved changing over to being a DBA or a sort of DBA/developer hybrid role which would have been interesting (I would definitely prefer the hybrid role to being a pure DBA) but some statements from higher-ups about hiring freezes etc. made it clear that wouldn't happen any time soon (even though my direct manager was supportive and trying to help).
- jahewson 5y ago
  This is not true at all. I get 3-5 recruiter emails per day many of which state comp up-front. Recently the numbers have got so high that I have to admit, it’s tempting, despite being perfectly happy in my current role.
  - lazyasciiart 5y ago
    Maybe I should start opening those recruiter emails - I don't think the ones I have read ever included salary info...
    - HideousKojima 5y ago
      At least on Indeed 1/2 to 2/3rds of job postings for C# developers include salary ranges, and I'm sure it's similar for other languages. It's pretty nice for getting an idea of what you're worth.
- lotsofpulp 5y ago
  I assume many people are smart enough to know that they need to increase earnings to gain security in life and stay ahead of inflation. Me being content at work is not going to pay the kids’ tuition, healthcare, or legal expenses. Or my expenses in 40 years. A large amount of assets yielding healthy levels of passive income will.
- tester756 5y ago
  > People don't leave because someone gave them an offer out of the blue. They have to start looking in the first place and whatever triggered that search is what's important. You don't have to look around to know that you're underpaid, just talk to people from industry and they'll tell ya
- mehphp 5y ago
  That's not true at all. I just switched a few weeks ago for a 50% increase that I did indeed receive "out of the blue". Emailed by a recruiter, I turned them down, they were persistent, and I took it. I was not actively looking and the thought of leaving hadn't crossed my mind.
- politician 5y ago
  7% inflation is enough for some people to start looking.
- __turbobrew__ 5y ago
  Inflation, cost of housing skyrocketing, etc. I’m looking for a new job because my current one does not pay enough to own a house any more. You basically have to make FAANG bux to own a house here so that is why I started looking. Otherwise I have quite high job satisfaction.
skinkestek 5y ago
Late, but I will note that the more people pay the nicer they treat you and the less they expect from you.

jjav 5y ago

I do find it surprising compensation is at the top. I've never changed jobs over money. In fact several times I've taken new jobs that pay less on the promise of it being more fun. Which is not to say I'll work for unreasonably low pay, I talk comp ranges with recruiters first to know if it is worth continuing the discussion. But beyond a reasonable point, more pay doesn't make any difference (well, unless it's like 20x more, but nobody is offering that). A pleasant working environment, interesting projects, ownership, sane management, being respected, work/life balance and vacations; all of these are to me a lot more important than +/- 100K of pay.

manquer 5y ago
If the compensation does not impact basic lifestyle, then yes people do like to choose better /interesting jobs provided their hygiene needs are getting met, that is becoming harder every year. Rents/ Mortgages / College Fees are all climbing higher than compensation increases at the entry level. Even in tech there are a plenty of people paid less than 80 or 90k. On top of that these hefty student loans and high rent , steep mortgages that today's emerging work force is burdened with, it is not easy to ignore even small financial incentives when they are always trying to make ends meet and have to make basic quality of life sacrifices.
- humanrebar 5y ago
  Compensation always affects lifestyle. If nothing else, it lets you spend your way to a negligible commute.
  - manquer 5y ago
    My point is not that compensation won't change lifestyle, it was that for basic needs lifestyle there is a compensation required ( i.e. living wage), people don't have luxury of choosing a more fulfilling job unless they are above that number. --- Basic needs is somewhat commonly used term [1], while what is basic in one location or country is not same everywhere and there are degrees of subjectivity to it. It is quite politicized and US Census threshold of $25,000 /year for family of four is ludicrously low as defined today. [2] While there can be arguments on what the number should be and even what constitutes basic needs, the idea of basic needs itself shouldn't be controversial IMHO that in locations where traditionally you get a tech job it is higher than even 80-90k factoring in mortgages and student loans, things that are not included in U.S. Census Bureau methodology. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_needs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_needs [2] The reasons for such low bar is political, the methods used reflect that, one example is using a single number nationally is an insidious choice. Cost of Living in NY or the Bay Area,CA does not compare to say rural Montana . A sizable portion of the population lives in high density high cost of living parts of the country (jobs are there) and the number does not reflect that or is weighted by where the population actually live. There are plenty of other criticisms, on what is being included with what weight etc.

brailsafe 5y ago

The poll does not make that obvious. The poll reflects that being one of the reasons that someone will have or has considered it. I upvoted 3 options even though I've been fired from all my jobs, because those are all factors I considered. It may or may not have been the most important consideration

srcreigh 5y ago

Incorrect. The poll makes it clear compensation is the most common factor. It could be consistent #2 or #3 reason

davidw 5y ago

More is certainly better, but at a certain point, you kind of know where the industry is, and that you're probably not going to get a radical bump (although maybe right now you are?), so while it still counts, you start looking at the other factors more.

deltaonefour 5y ago

The poll is messing with your way of thinking. Look at the poll and think on this statement: "The majority of people leave a company because they are unsatisfied, not because of compensation." The poll statistically verifies the above statement as true. Its just divided in a way that makes you think compensation is the main reason. Still what the poll does show is that compensation is a significant factor, more than ever before.

cloverich 5y ago
To rephrase: Compensation has fewer total than the others combined. E.g. people leave more often for non-compensation reasons. (Added in case you were being mis-interpreted, e.g. the downvotes. I think its an important and insightful point)
- dmoy 5y ago
  You can vote for multiple options in the poll, so this isn't really possible to unpack from the given numbers.
m3047 5y ago
"Compensation" needs to be unpacked. It includes healthcare, contractual and scheduling freedom to pursue side projects, and company sponsored and encouraged opportunities for self-investment in skills and learning. Most of those "other" things are nontaxable.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

WestCoastJustin 5y ago

Why is compensation #1 though? There is a threshold where you have enough money and it's easier to work with people you know and like. So, what do they need that extra money for? As I mentioned elsewhere housing is currently the #1 issues I see here in Canada that people are focused on. If you are a front line person, making $15 at a restaurant, plus renting where housing costs $1m+, you are probably looking for options (vs someone who owns a house and is making $150/hour as a dev). This is a leading question to expand on why compensation matters. Personally, I fall into the group where I could probably make more but really like my group. So, there is risk with leaving (bad boss, toxic culture, too much work, etc) vs making more.

mym1990 5y ago
Most people are not making 400k as a dev. People are leaving due to compensation because it is a strong market for seekers right now, and all things equal it is not rational to leave 20k+ a year on the table if you have even partially complete information(which a lot of people do nowadays).
- t-writescode 5y ago
  Might be worth saying "it is not rational to leave a 15% pay increase on the table" than 20k. At 200k / year, I would absolutely ignore a 20k pay increase if company culture sucked.
hiq 5y ago
> So, what do they need that extra money for? FIRE. Money buys a lot beyond your monthly food and rent. > I fall into the group where I could probably make more If you don't know for sure it's also hard to judge if you're making the right decision. I also wouldn't risk a nice and stable situation for a +5%, but recent threads on HN have been mentioning way higher bumps lately, hence compensation #1 (again on HN, SV-centered etc.). > there is risk with leaving (bad boss, toxic culture, too much work, etc) The chance goes both ways though, there's also a chance you might end up at a better place on top of a better compensation. If you're risk-averse that might not be for you, but there's probably a compensation bump at which it makes sense even if you're risk-averse.

DylanBohlender 5y ago

I like the notion of breaking job satisfaction into "motivators" and "hygiene factors" (Herzberg's motivation-hygiene theory [1]). Motivators actively cause job satisfaction. Things like finding personal fulfillment, meaningful work, and other top-of-Maslow's-hierarchy stuff. Hygiene factors cause dissatisfaction in their absence, but aren't standalone motivators. Salary probably fits in this bucket - if you learn that you're underpaid, you're likely to feel demotivated and look for work elsewhere. If you learn that you're overpaid, that can cause dissatisfaction too (feeling like you have to serve out the rest of a prison sentence until your shares/options vest is pretty common in our industry). Compensation isn't everything, but if it seems unfair, it's absolutely enough to motivate people to make changes. I think we're seeing a reevaluation of labor market expectations with the whole Great Resignation thing, where those who are in demand are realizing just how demanded their skills are (and getting pissed off that they're undercompensated in their $current_job), and the old generation you speak of is trotting forward with their fingers in their ears, blinded by normalcy bias to the fundamental shift happening in front of them - a big labor market awakening. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-factor_theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-factor_theory

lazyasciiart 5y ago
Also called 'table stakes', or 'must haves' in product development.
miscaccount 5y ago
And the executive compensation, is available to every employee. The age where management claim to have no money , internally giving huge bonus to themselves cannot be pulled anymore.

artificialLimbs 5y ago

Could just be a due to a lack of awareness. Some people will leave a low stress/low-moderate wage job for a high stress, high wage job, but end up with a drug habit/in a mental ward/jail and then wonder for years what the cause of the trouble was. I've seen it happen a number of times.