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See my comment below: they just seized (not frozen, seized) 50k EU from us in a targetted attack against our company and shareholders because we took legal coun

by kweks 5y ago

See my comment below: they just seized (not frozen, seized) 50k EU from us in a targetted attack against our company and shareholders because we took legal counsel when they froze the accounts.

effingwewt 5y ago
Good. I love when companies are so big they do as they please and retaliate when brought to task. Hopefully it's one more nail in their coffin. All the best, hope this is the beginning of their end.
- shoulderfake 5y ago
  the only way this stuff will change is if the fines are SUBSTANTIAL
  - bigjimmyjohnson 5y ago
    It's theft in great amounts of money. Fines are necessary but not sufficient. There should be prison time.
    - andrepd 5y ago
      This applies to a great deal of white-collar crime. As long as there aren't serious PERSONAL consequences for wrongdoing, just a fine that the company coffers will pay as the cost of doing business, nothing will change. We need to start to put CEOs in actual prison and to forfeit their fortune.
    - effingwewt 5y ago
      Agreed, that's the only thing that will stop this garbage. Between companies and banks doing this, our own government allowing civil forfeiture, and the penalties- of there even are any, are a monetary slap on the wrist, what recourse do we have? We can't even change the laws because money lobbies and always wins. I really hope this is the tide changing.
- tedivm 5y ago
  PayPals parent company, Ebay, is not exactly innocent either. > Federal prosecutors have said the harassment included anonymous deliveries of items like live insects, a funeral wreath, and a bloody pig face Halloween mask to the couple's home. The employees also sent pornographic magazines with the husband’s name on it to their neighbor’s house and planned to break into the couple’s garage to install a GPS device on their car. https://abcnews.go.com/Business/wireStory/couple-ebay-harassment-case-sues-company-officials-78968968 https://abcnews.go.com/Business/wireStory/couple-ebay-harass...
  - mdek 5y ago
    FYI Ebay no longer owns Paypal, and hasn't for several years. Per https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_PayPal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_PayPal > September 2014 onward: It is announced that PayPal will be split off eBay. The split will be completed by the second quarter of 2015.
    - Scoundreller 5y ago
      EBay is actively de-integrating PayPal. E.g. sellers are being required to provide their banking info to eBay for eBay to deposit payments directly. It was dumb to see eBay send two verification payments to “authorize” my bank account, of 1 cent and 3 cents, and after confirming, they let me know that they were going to take their 4 cents back.
      - mianos 5y ago
        2 Small payments can provide a larger range of random numbers for an account verification at lower cost to you. Let's say you want a random number between 0 and 91, you can take up 9c times 2, for a maximum of 18c, giving a much lesser chance you can guess the number on the confirmation. Otherwise, for the same range you would take up to 91c out.
      - colanderman 5y ago
        ACH fees almost certainly mean it's not "worth" it to pull back the 4 cents. But I can see people being frustrated by verification payments throwing their bookkeeping off, especially by a (literally) random amount.
ckastner 5y ago
At the risk of arm-chairing this too much: did you contact the CSSF, who seems to be the supervisory authority responsible for AML enforcement in Luxembourg? To highlight how insane this sounds: let's assume, for the sake of argument, that your 50K is suspected to be cocaine money. There exist exactly two outcomes: either you are exonerated and you get your money back, or you're eventually found guilty of something, and the government takes the money. But Paypal? They have zero claim to the money, and they could be in hot water even for merely holding on to it. But to seize it? There is just no way that any bank involved in AML enforcement can keep funds for themselves, and any supervisory authority who's handed evidence to such a practice would tear them apart.
- kragen 5y ago
  They could plausibly return it to the people who paid it in, if their excuse is that it's believed to be fraudulent. Six months of float is enough to make a significant amount of money, too, especially if it's in an inflating currency (like the dollar over the last year).
  - loceng 5y ago
    Indeed, their behaviour should be criminal if it somehow already isn't.
- kweks 5y ago
  I definitely appreciate the arm-chair assistance: I'm unfamiliar with the Luxembourg jurisdiction, so your pointers are great - we will discuss with our lawyers. From what I understood, Luxembourg's consumer laws are more loosely defined than that of other EU jurisdictions - which makes the type of T&C that PP has established easier to maintain.

by kweks 5y ago

See my comment below: they just seized (not frozen, seized) 50k EU from us in a targetted attack against our company and shareholders because we took legal counsel when they froze the accounts.

effingwewt 5y ago

Good. I love when companies are so big they do as they please and retaliate when brought to task. Hopefully it's one more nail in their coffin. All the best, hope this is the beginning of their end.

shoulderfake 5y ago
the only way this stuff will change is if the fines are SUBSTANTIAL
- bigjimmyjohnson 5y ago
  It's theft in great amounts of money. Fines are necessary but not sufficient. There should be prison time.
  - andrepd 5y ago
    This applies to a great deal of white-collar crime. As long as there aren't serious PERSONAL consequences for wrongdoing, just a fine that the company coffers will pay as the cost of doing business, nothing will change. We need to start to put CEOs in actual prison and to forfeit their fortune.
  - effingwewt 5y ago
    Agreed, that's the only thing that will stop this garbage. Between companies and banks doing this, our own government allowing civil forfeiture, and the penalties- of there even are any, are a monetary slap on the wrist, what recourse do we have? We can't even change the laws because money lobbies and always wins. I really hope this is the tide changing.
tedivm 5y ago
PayPals parent company, Ebay, is not exactly innocent either. > Federal prosecutors have said the harassment included anonymous deliveries of items like live insects, a funeral wreath, and a bloody pig face Halloween mask to the couple's home. The employees also sent pornographic magazines with the husband’s name on it to their neighbor’s house and planned to break into the couple’s garage to install a GPS device on their car. https://abcnews.go.com/Business/wireStory/couple-ebay-harassment-case-sues-company-officials-78968968 https://abcnews.go.com/Business/wireStory/couple-ebay-harass...
- mdek 5y ago
  FYI Ebay no longer owns Paypal, and hasn't for several years. Per https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_PayPal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_PayPal > September 2014 onward: It is announced that PayPal will be split off eBay. The split will be completed by the second quarter of 2015.
  - Scoundreller 5y ago
    EBay is actively de-integrating PayPal. E.g. sellers are being required to provide their banking info to eBay for eBay to deposit payments directly. It was dumb to see eBay send two verification payments to “authorize” my bank account, of 1 cent and 3 cents, and after confirming, they let me know that they were going to take their 4 cents back.
    - mianos 5y ago
      2 Small payments can provide a larger range of random numbers for an account verification at lower cost to you. Let's say you want a random number between 0 and 91, you can take up 9c times 2, for a maximum of 18c, giving a much lesser chance you can guess the number on the confirmation. Otherwise, for the same range you would take up to 91c out.
    - colanderman 5y ago
      ACH fees almost certainly mean it's not "worth" it to pull back the 4 cents. But I can see people being frustrated by verification payments throwing their bookkeeping off, especially by a (literally) random amount.

ckastner 5y ago

At the risk of arm-chairing this too much: did you contact the CSSF, who seems to be the supervisory authority responsible for AML enforcement in Luxembourg? To highlight how insane this sounds: let's assume, for the sake of argument, that your 50K is suspected to be cocaine money. There exist exactly two outcomes: either you are exonerated and you get your money back, or you're eventually found guilty of something, and the government takes the money. But Paypal? They have zero claim to the money, and they could be in hot water even for merely holding on to it. But to seize it? There is just no way that any bank involved in AML enforcement can keep funds for themselves, and any supervisory authority who's handed evidence to such a practice would tear them apart.

kragen 5y ago
They could plausibly return it to the people who paid it in, if their excuse is that it's believed to be fraudulent. Six months of float is enough to make a significant amount of money, too, especially if it's in an inflating currency (like the dollar over the last year).
- loceng 5y ago
  Indeed, their behaviour should be criminal if it somehow already isn't.
kweks 5y ago
I definitely appreciate the arm-chair assistance: I'm unfamiliar with the Luxembourg jurisdiction, so your pointers are great - we will discuss with our lawyers. From what I understood, Luxembourg's consumer laws are more loosely defined than that of other EU jurisdictions - which makes the type of T&C that PP has established easier to maintain.