7 ms·
Bozkurt, B., [et al.] Myocarditis With Covid-19 mRNA Vaccines (2021)
- kfrzcode 5y agoLest I be labeled a plague rat of misinformation; I'm trying to ready proper studies on some of the supposed "vaccine injuries" that have been popping up. After the smear campaign that muffled Dr. Robert Malone, I discovered his website and substack which led me to this page: https://www.rwmalonemd.com/references https://www.rwmalonemd.com/references That is a lot of NIH papers citing a lot of suspicious things! In contrast I'm not able to find much to compare with other vaccines (this is because I don't have a nicely curated list to start from; nor are my journal-searching skills up to snuff).
- acdha 5y agoOne note: Pubmed is a public archive hosted by the National Library of Medicine. It doesn’t imply endorsement by NIH.
- kfrzcode 5y agoThank you! ++
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- tamaharbor 5y agoI had never heard of myocarditis until recently, but now I know three people with the condition, all recently vaccinated. I know that is anecdotal, but I am more afraid of heart problems than I am of covid at this point, so I will remain unvaccinated.
- Niksko 5y agoYou're more likely to develop myocarditis from COVID than from the vaccine. So if you're more worried about heart problems than COVID, it still makes sense to get vaccinated. Pretend it's a vaccine against heart problems, and try not to think too much about where the heart problems came from.
- dehrmann 5y ago> You're more likely to develop myocarditis from COVID than from the vaccine Do we know this yet for omicron?
- native_samples 5y agoNobody can make statements like that with any confidence, and I feel it's misleading and possibly dangerously misleading to claim that. COVID and any/all possible symptoms are being searched for with the largest dragnet disease surveillance system in history. Millions of people are subject to essentially "random" COVID testing per day, and if any of them become positive, that triggers a chain of events that leads to huge quantities of research effort being directed towards them. Myocarditis cases are being investigated only when people turn up at hospital saying "my heart hurts", and even then, there is enormous pressure on medics to not ascribe these cases to vaccination. There is no systematic survey of the population being done to detect these cases. Thus it's not really possible to say how often myocarditis is being created by COVID vaccines in the general population. All the numbers being thrown around in this thread, like the top voted post, are ridiculous because they're assuming that both sides of the ratio are being discovered in equal proportions, which clearly cannot be true. One of my own best friends took Moderna, which has a much higher risk of triggering myocarditis than COVID according to British data, even though nobody is looking for. Sure enough a couple of months later he experienced some sort of "heart event". I'm not sure it was quite a heart attack exactly but he experienced sudden extreme fatigue in which he had to lie down, a squeezing sensation in his chest and racing heart with skipped/irregular heartbeats. Whatever it was, he didn't report it or get it looked at.
- 20after4 5y agoThat sounds like you described a heart attack. They aren't always fatal and many people have a heart attack without realizing that's what it was.
- native_samples 5y agoI was hoping nobody would say that :( I guess I should tell him.
- __m 5y agoDying of Covid seems to be pretty brutal
- dehrmann 5y agoIf you're in the US, look into the J&J vaccine. It isn't an mRNA vaccine, and doesn't seem to have the myocarditis risk.
- ornornor 5y agoIt also is quite a bit less effective.
- gilbetron 5y agoYou know 3 people that have confirmed, physician diagnosed myocarditis following vaccination? Or do you know 3 people who have "heart feel kinda weird, is this myocarditis"?
- tamaharbor 5y agoHospital confirmed in two cases, physician confirmed in the other. Really scary stuff.
- nradov 5y agoThere is some preliminary evidence from an animal study that the myocarditis side effects aren't being caused by the vaccine per se but rather by bad injection technique. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34406358/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34406358/
- senectus1 5y agothis is the "aspiration technique" thats being argued? ie inserting the needle, drawing back to see if there is blood and if there is finding a new location because finding blood indicates you have found a vein ? This is standard procedure in many communities, I wonder why they seem to be pushing back on this. It seems like a good and harmless argument to me.
- raxxorrax 5y agoIt is more painful, takes longer and needs trained personell. The risk when injecting a muscle is very low. Some argued it would increase acceptance and reduce stress if aspiration wasn't used. I dislike this line of reasoning but can understand the overall decision.
- alsaaro 5y agoWhy is myocarditis more prevalent after the second mRNA vaccine dosage? https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/safety/myocarditis.html https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/safety/my... If this was merely application error, ought we expect this reaction to be equally probable after the first and second dosages, this isn't what the data suggests.
- smorgusofborg 5y agoWhy would the level of reaction from tissue exposed to a higher than intended dose of a novel protein be the same as its reaction to a higher dose of a protein it has been primed to react to?
- gilbetron 5y agomyocarditis isn't instant, and while it typically presents within a week, given that there is a long tail, you would expect to see it more likely after the second dose. Furthermore, it could be that in some cases the first jab causes the myocarditis, but the second dose symptoms causes the myocarditis to become evident.
- jasonhansel 5y agoThe important sentence: > Despite rare cases of myocarditis, the benefit-risk assessment for COVID-19 vaccination shows a favorable balance for all age and sex groups; therefore, COVID-19 vaccination is recommended for everyone ≥12 years of age.
- agensaequivocum 5y agoExcept I get to make the risk assessment for myself not someone I've never met.
- 28304283409234 5y agoSpoken like a true individual. Vaccines optimally work if we don't, and instead think as a community.
- s1artibartfast 5y agoSurely you must agree that there is some point where individual trumps community benefits? The hard part is deciding when. It is extremely easy to postulate hypotheticals if utilitarianism has no limitations.
- jasonhansel 5y agoLegally speaking, that isn't true (at least not in the US). Vaccine mandates (in general, regardless of today's SCOTUS decision) remain constitutional: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacobson_v._Massachusetts https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacobson_v._Massachusetts In fact, you are perfectly within your rights to elect a state government that requires vaccination for all citizens.
- agensaequivocum 5y agoThat case is only in reference to state government not federal. No where in the constitution does the federal government receive any kind of power remotely close to that. If my state enacted a mandate, I would move immediately. While I may agree that in some cases that the state has the right to do force one, it would only be in an extremely rare, last resort, literally everyone will die case. The government should always err on the side of liberty.
- phs318u 5y agoThis possibility freaked me out a little: > "molecular mimicry between the spike protein ... and self-antigens" If a virus were to better mimic a self-antigen, does that imply that vaccines are unlikely to work without introducing some other harm? Our ability to quickly engineer vaccines may have lulled us into a false sense of security. Imagine a replay of the last two years without an vaccines.
- s1artibartfast 5y agoOff target autoimmune response has been discussed somewhat in the fringe literature, but is hard to find information on. We probably won't have an answer for many more years.
- myrryr 5y agoWe do know that covid causes some pretty nasty autoimmune stuff.
- s1artibartfast 5y agoTotally agree
- native_samples 5y agoIt implies vaccines could cause auto-immune diseases. There was a paper with many case studies of this happening in real world patients discussed here a few days ago, so it's not theoretical. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29872308 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29872308
- eigenwitch 5y agoI'm one of the people who've experienced this (exceptionally rare) side effect personally. I was hospitalized twice after my second Pfizer dose (in Australia). I'm still recovering. It sucked. It still sucks. And I'm still very happy to be vaccinated. I do not at all regret my vaccination. The EV of a covid vaccine was, and is, hugely positive. I drive to work, I've run two marathons, and I've been scuba diving dozens of times. All are riskier, overall, than the vaccine. Even if 100% of the ~12.6 in a million cases of myocarditis from the vaccine had resulted in death --- which, let's be very clear, they absolutely have not --- it would still be a risk worth taking. Your per year chances of dying from homicide in the US are 3-4 times as high.
- niknoble 5y agoIf that side effect has 12.6 in a million odds, what are the odds of an active HN user experiencing it?
- neoncontrails 5y ago(153,057 active HN users * 12.6 events per million)/1,000,000 = 1.4*10^-8 This leads to a P value of approximately 0.0014, which is well below the 5% threshold. This is a very crude calculation, but it does give an idea of what we can expect. Given the small P value, there’s a good chance that the HN community has experienced a similar event to the one described in the article.
- Jysix 5y agoYour change of dying from the vaccine is very low, indeed. But, if you have no comorbidity, your chance of dying from the covid is extremely low too... You must also take this into account in your comparison