5 ms·

As the father of a 16-year old, I can say that the current generation of teenagers has heard a lot more about the issues of college debt than previous generatio

As the father of a 16-year old, I can say that the current generation of teenagers has heard a lot more about the issues of college debt than previous generations did. Partly because it's a lot higher, partly because even if newsmedia doesn't report on it, there are enough adults out there saddled with it that they just hear about it from a relative or friend. It used to be a no-brainer; you go to college if you can. No longer. Any industry that sees nothing but expansion for decades, has a rough time when it stops. I think higher ed is in for a rough time.

taylodl 5y ago
No. Things are just going back to the way they used to be: higher education is for the elites. Once upon a time we understood that higher education was important for all and having a well-educated public was good for the Republic. Now that view no longer holds - the politicians have learned that their flim-flam doesn't work as well on a well-educated public and so they've been making cuts to higher education for the past 20 years. We're just now getting to the point where the cuts are having a serious impact to the middle class being able to afford college. Don't worry though - the elites will be just fine.
- 9dev 5y ago
  Hanlon's Razor: "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity". It's enough to assume elites were greedy (and/or dense) and didn't consider long-term effects, you don't even need a decades-spanning conspiracy for it. The elites won't be as fine once they realise much of their wealth stems from the rest of the republic, but that seems to be the circle humanity is caught in for eternity.
  - mistrial9 5y ago
    it is my vague impression from history that in real yet slow-moving crisis, those that are able to command and control high-value resources do in fact continue to thrive while others fail in increasing numbers. This works, until it doesn't, to make a cute phrase, because in dynamic systems, either the system re-stabilizes in a new and different composition, or there is sudden, increased failure.
    - 9dev 5y ago
      If I understood you correctly, you're describing the efficiency-resilience problem: A system that is efficient is highly specialised for their environment, and thus susceptible to failure if the environment changes; a system that is resilient will not be as efficient, but can adapt to a changing environment. This seems to apply to all kinds of things - people, organisations, software, religions. I guess as often in live, balance is important here :)
      - deepsquirrelnet 5y ago
        What does this say about economics and supply chain failures during a pandemic? I think you’re on to something.
    - rossdavidh 5y ago
      True, and you might be interested in Peter Turchin's "Ages of Discord" for a more in-depth investigation into how and why that happens.
- echelon 5y ago
  That's an interesting take, but I disagree. The reason colleges cost so much is that they've expanded their administration, facilities, and sports programs to soak up all of the available loan money. I went to a state school that focused on STEM. The acceptance rate was low, class sizes were small, and the tuitions were reasonable. The buildings dated from the 60's. We didn't have extensive athletic programs, and our gym was falling apart. The school didn't spare expenses on things that didn't contribute directly to education. We still had access to full machine shops, doppler radar installations, flow cytometers, BSL-3 labs, electron microscopes, wind tunnels, robotics facilities, and a boat load of really cool stuff. But it certainly didn't feel like an ivory tower. Though our school wasn't losing money, the state board of regents decided to merge it into a much larger "liberal arts" school. This was done so that it could hit the student body requirements in order to qualify for building its own division I football program. They built lots of fancy buildings for their dance program and theater productions. I can't even count how many stadiums and sports facilities they've constructed - it feels like two dozen! They're also purchasing lots of expensive real estate to enhance the size of the main campus. Meanwhile tuition has quadrupled and fees have gone up 1,000%. It's bloat. That's why everything costs so much.
  - lordnacho 5y ago
    I wonder if there's a market for schools that specifically don't have a sports program. I suspect the atmosphere at such a place would be attractive to a large minority of prospective students.
    - taylodl 5y ago
      A lot of students who may not play sports competitively still enjoy playing sports recreationally and really, given the sad state of American's health these days, we really need to be promoting the development of both mind and body.
    - dragonsky 5y ago
      Could somebody explain to me (Australian) why/how sport and higher education became so closely linked? We certainly have university sporting teams here, but they are not really notable and certainly don't have the political clout that they do in US schools.
- whywhywhywhy 5y ago
  > the politicians have learned that their flim-flam doesn't work as well on a well-educated public Looking at recent graduates are we sure that this system is truly preparing them for the realities of the real world and how to understand it. Feels more to me that a whole generation is being scammed into paying for broken tools.
strikelaserclaw 5y ago
not only the higher costs of education but my generation (millennial) learned that most degrees offered provide no real jobs that can contend with massive rise in cost for every significant thing that constitutes a decent life (housing, childcare etc...). Things look even bleaker for younger generations. The people who were born just in time to ride the swelling wave greatly benefited, if you were born when the wave is crashing down, unfortunately your life will be much much harder. We have this notion that everything we earn is based on merit but as i get older i see how much external context greatly influences the opportunities for merit as well as the outcomes.
l8rpeace 5y ago
I can relate to info/knowledge about that edu debt, went to undergrad in the 90's and while I might be naive, I can say I didn't comprehend the debt side of things. And my edu debt pales in comparison to today's students. Fortunately I grew up, buckled down, and paid it off but there were some lean years right after school. Now? I can't even imagine. And I also agree: how will these institutions scale back? What if tuition was cut significantly? What programs are on the chopping block?
- rossdavidh 5y ago
  Businesses and industries that have never had layoffs (or not in a long time), tend to do them badly (more unfairly and in a more disorganized manner) than ones which have had them recently.
cush 5y ago
Exactly. 1M fewer people will be in poverty from student loan debt

taylodl 5y ago

No. Things are just going back to the way they used to be: higher education is for the elites. Once upon a time we understood that higher education was important for all and having a well-educated public was good for the Republic. Now that view no longer holds - the politicians have learned that their flim-flam doesn't work as well on a well-educated public and so they've been making cuts to higher education for the past 20 years. We're just now getting to the point where the cuts are having a serious impact to the middle class being able to afford college. Don't worry though - the elites will be just fine.

9dev 5y ago
Hanlon's Razor: "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity". It's enough to assume elites were greedy (and/or dense) and didn't consider long-term effects, you don't even need a decades-spanning conspiracy for it. The elites won't be as fine once they realise much of their wealth stems from the rest of the republic, but that seems to be the circle humanity is caught in for eternity.
- mistrial9 5y ago
  it is my vague impression from history that in real yet slow-moving crisis, those that are able to command and control high-value resources do in fact continue to thrive while others fail in increasing numbers. This works, until it doesn't, to make a cute phrase, because in dynamic systems, either the system re-stabilizes in a new and different composition, or there is sudden, increased failure.
  - 9dev 5y ago
    If I understood you correctly, you're describing the efficiency-resilience problem: A system that is efficient is highly specialised for their environment, and thus susceptible to failure if the environment changes; a system that is resilient will not be as efficient, but can adapt to a changing environment. This seems to apply to all kinds of things - people, organisations, software, religions. I guess as often in live, balance is important here :)
    - deepsquirrelnet 5y ago
      What does this say about economics and supply chain failures during a pandemic? I think you’re on to something.
  - rossdavidh 5y ago
    True, and you might be interested in Peter Turchin's "Ages of Discord" for a more in-depth investigation into how and why that happens.
echelon 5y ago
That's an interesting take, but I disagree. The reason colleges cost so much is that they've expanded their administration, facilities, and sports programs to soak up all of the available loan money. I went to a state school that focused on STEM. The acceptance rate was low, class sizes were small, and the tuitions were reasonable. The buildings dated from the 60's. We didn't have extensive athletic programs, and our gym was falling apart. The school didn't spare expenses on things that didn't contribute directly to education. We still had access to full machine shops, doppler radar installations, flow cytometers, BSL-3 labs, electron microscopes, wind tunnels, robotics facilities, and a boat load of really cool stuff. But it certainly didn't feel like an ivory tower. Though our school wasn't losing money, the state board of regents decided to merge it into a much larger "liberal arts" school. This was done so that it could hit the student body requirements in order to qualify for building its own division I football program. They built lots of fancy buildings for their dance program and theater productions. I can't even count how many stadiums and sports facilities they've constructed - it feels like two dozen! They're also purchasing lots of expensive real estate to enhance the size of the main campus. Meanwhile tuition has quadrupled and fees have gone up 1,000%. It's bloat. That's why everything costs so much.
- lordnacho 5y ago
  I wonder if there's a market for schools that specifically don't have a sports program. I suspect the atmosphere at such a place would be attractive to a large minority of prospective students.
  - taylodl 5y ago
    A lot of students who may not play sports competitively still enjoy playing sports recreationally and really, given the sad state of American's health these days, we really need to be promoting the development of both mind and body.
  - dragonsky 5y ago
    Could somebody explain to me (Australian) why/how sport and higher education became so closely linked? We certainly have university sporting teams here, but they are not really notable and certainly don't have the political clout that they do in US schools.
whywhywhywhy 5y ago
> the politicians have learned that their flim-flam doesn't work as well on a well-educated public Looking at recent graduates are we sure that this system is truly preparing them for the realities of the real world and how to understand it. Feels more to me that a whole generation is being scammed into paying for broken tools.

strikelaserclaw 5y ago

not only the higher costs of education but my generation (millennial) learned that most degrees offered provide no real jobs that can contend with massive rise in cost for every significant thing that constitutes a decent life (housing, childcare etc...). Things look even bleaker for younger generations. The people who were born just in time to ride the swelling wave greatly benefited, if you were born when the wave is crashing down, unfortunately your life will be much much harder. We have this notion that everything we earn is based on merit but as i get older i see how much external context greatly influences the opportunities for merit as well as the outcomes.

l8rpeace 5y ago

I can relate to info/knowledge about that edu debt, went to undergrad in the 90's and while I might be naive, I can say I didn't comprehend the debt side of things. And my edu debt pales in comparison to today's students. Fortunately I grew up, buckled down, and paid it off but there were some lean years right after school. Now? I can't even imagine. And I also agree: how will these institutions scale back? What if tuition was cut significantly? What programs are on the chopping block?

rossdavidh 5y ago
Businesses and industries that have never had layoffs (or not in a long time), tend to do them badly (more unfairly and in a more disorganized manner) than ones which have had them recently.

cush 5y ago

Exactly. 1M fewer people will be in poverty from student loan debt