8 ms·

If this is indeed true, it is yet another piece of evidence in the case for prison reform. Prisoners are universally bored, yet in many cases insufficiently pro

If this is indeed true, it is yet another piece of evidence in the case for prison reform. Prisoners are universally bored, yet in many cases insufficiently protected from one another. Read accounts of any long-time convict's time in prison and you'll hear about excruciating boredom punctuated by acts of outrageous sadism.

mc32 5y ago
So put them to work and pay them the going rate [in the normal economy] and use that toward victim restitution? If you pay them the market rate and this activity improves their well-being compared to being sedentary, I think it’s a win for all involved.
- wizzwizz4 5y ago
  “The going rate” will be low, because of market dynamics. Either you need a prisoners' minimum wage, or you need to not do that; people do still have rights even if they've committed crimes. Put them in education, give them food and shelter, and they'll be better able to contribute to society when they get out.
  - tw04 5y ago
    They should have the option of school or work, with a minimum GPA required to stay in school. The biggest issue will be supervision of the grading to ensure it's not being abused either to punish people who are doing well or to let people off who aren't actually doing their work.
- awb 5y ago
  I’d pass on the forced labor part, but make work at a going rate optional. Bring separated from everyone and everything you love is punishment enough in many cases.
- smt88 5y ago
  Forced labor is an incentive to incarcerate more people. Incarceration should not be profitable. It would be better to give them daily education, therapy, recreation, etc. They have piloted such programs in the US with a lot of success at preventing recidivism. All of this can save costs in the long run. Paying for prison security, medical costs, maintenance, turnover, and recidivism is extremely expensive.
- lapsedacademic 5y ago
  Forced labor in a fixed geographic region with strict security requirements is fundamentally incongruent with pricing power. I think prisoners should have the option to work and that they should be subject to all of the normal worker protection laws. Wages can go toward some combination of restitution and improving quality of life in prisons: food, lodging, entertainment in off hours, etc. Restitution should be limited to a fixed percentage of monthly income (as it is in the civilian world). Why? Because removing positive reinforcement from the act of labor has perverse psychological effects. These effects persist after incarceration and contribute to recidivism. This sort of system is insufficiently punitive for some, so the politics of these reforms are tricky.
  - notdemo88 5y ago
- circleit 5y ago
  Look up CCI in Colorado. They pay almost nothing for prisoners to work in industries like manufacturing. They then sell these products to businesses so they can claim it was made in the USA (so awesome!). It’s all slave labor essentially. Then, with the skills these people learn, when they’re released they can’t get hired because they have a record. Whole thing is a disgusting joke. Taking advantage of people that ended up in their situation because they never had direction or opportunities to begin with. (Should mention they just got a new director and she is really awesome. Came from the women’s bean project. Hope she can make some positive change but she’ll have to fight a lot of bureaucracy.)
- lostcolony 5y ago
  I'd be happy if we'd just get over this vindictive need to deprive prisoners of basic pleasures. I've seen outrage over the idea that prisoners have access to TVs, or gaming consoles, or similar, stories of wardens confiscating books and pen and paper and such. I understand there are some other concerns that may warrant keeping usage of some of those under surveillance or similar (keep a pencil from being used as a shiv say), but other countries don't try and make prisons as miserable an experience as possible, and they have far, far lower rates of recidivism and violence and such.
  - tristor 5y ago
    > I'd be happy if we'd just get over this vindictive need to deprive prisoners of basic pleasures. I won't argue that there aren't some people who have such a vindictive need, but in most cases where I've had conversations with folks about things like this, it's more that they oppose someone having a similar (or maybe "better") quality of life to what they have, without working to pay for it, and rather being paid for by them. The opposition to these things in prisons seem similar to the arguments I hear from people against social safety net things generally. Not to say these arguments are reasonable, but I don't think vindictiveness is the primary driving factor.
    - quacked 5y ago
      I understand their frustration, but I think it's a win-win situation to provide a nice life in prison. They get out of society so we don't have to deal with them and they also aren't subject to torturous conditions.
    - elliekelly 5y ago
      Is there a word that means the opposite of schadenfreude? Displeasure at the advancement of others?
      - WalterBright 5y ago
        envy
simmanian 5y ago
I believe we should focus on separating criminals from non-criminals instead of punishing and torturing them. Give them an environment where they can thrive without being harmful to themselves and others. Let them re-join the society ONLY when they pose acceptable risk. This means violent criminals may never get to re-join the society, but that's okay given that they are still given a humane environment where they can stay healthy and thrive.
- watwut 5y ago
  Basically, you suggest even longer sentences in country that already leads incarceration rates worldwide.
- cm2012 5y ago
  Sounds like a pretty good compromise for public safety
- quacked 5y ago
  I agree with you, I just think it would take a lot more money and effort to provide this environment.
  - serverholic 5y ago
    Ending the war on drugs would open up some room
- mnw21cam 5y ago
  Isn't that basically how Australia was populated?
  - 6gvONxR4sf7o 5y ago
    Australia was populated long before that. 100k or so convicts shipped over a century probably means fewer than 50k shipped-convict population at once, compared to an 800k aboriginal population (plus or minus a lot).
- AlexTWithBeard 5y ago
mensetmanusman 5y ago
A family member was in prison for petty theft and breaking parole for over 25 years. When they got out, they didn’t even know how to drive because it started from teenage years (abusive father). I was shocked that the state didn’t spend an ounce of energy to at least teach these people basic skills. Now they are forced to live in cities where they are more likely to interact with bad influences. Anyway, I wonder if driving could be part of reform. E.g. let them be a part of the driving economy to build skills and support the nation.
- kgran 5y ago
  I know a little about car-dependency in the US, but sheesh... I am always astounded how such things like driving being a basic skill or having a car being a necessity are unquestionable parts of living and culture there.
  - smegger001 5y ago
    it comes form having sparse sidewalks, no bikelanes and low desity so everything is far apart.
scythe 5y ago
I mean the "obvious" alternative that satisfies those predicates is house arrest: separated from society, not in danger from other prisoners. So I'd ask: What prevents us from using house arrest as an alternative to imprisonment more often? How can those problems be addressed? Can we "build a better house arrest" -- maybe even from within the private sector?
namelessoracle 5y ago
Prison is fundamentally flawed from a conceptual basis. Is the idea to reform someone? To make them not repeat their crime? Is it to punish? It is to discourage? It does none of these job as well as it could. Lets take for an example a semi successful drug dealer. Odds are the drug dealer choose that profession because the rewards were higher than the risks. So to discourage that you can 1) make prison so terrible he fears it more than the rewards from dealing 2) teach him something that is of comparable economic utility so he no longer wants to deal drugs. The problem is that option 2 is arguably a reward. If you create incentives to break rules ("I break the law and sell drugs, my punishment is that i get locked away from X years and be forced to learn a trade or get a degree") then why wouldnt you break rules? We seem to pretend we dont want 1. But I've seen plenty of comments from conservatives about how the criminals deserve what they get, and oddly enough I also hear "dont drop the soap" jokes from liberals when its people they dont like.... Then you have for example murderers. Quite a few murderers will probably never murder again. The man who kills his wife and her lover after catching them in bed, is probably not going to be killing anyone again. It was that set of situations that drove them to that. What more can the person do than classes on impulse control? And your going to get them to learn that by putting them in the place where the impulse stimulus is completely different than the regular world? What does life or a lengthy prison accomplish if punishment/deterrence is not the goal? Thats not even getting into the fact that prison is the main mental health provider for anyone with serious issues who cant get family to take care of them. (and even people who have family might not be able to afford their particular issues). A person with severe schizophrenia who attacks others can't really be reformed The only real fix is to be honest about what the goal of "prison" is. And break the concept out into reform, containment, and punishment. At least then you can optimize towards those goals.
- the_jeremy 5y ago
  Making prison worse is unlikely to help[0] in that harsher sentences already don't help reduce crime. [0]: https://www.ojp.gov/pdffiles1/nij/247350.pdf https://www.ojp.gov/pdffiles1/nij/247350.pdf
  - namelessoracle 5y ago
inglor_cz 5y ago
Or school reform.
pasquinelli 5y ago
also a good reason to avoid social media.

mc32 5y ago

So put them to work and pay them the going rate [in the normal economy] and use that toward victim restitution? If you pay them the market rate and this activity improves their well-being compared to being sedentary, I think it’s a win for all involved.

wizzwizz4 5y ago
“The going rate” will be low, because of market dynamics. Either you need a prisoners' minimum wage, or you need to not do that; people do still have rights even if they've committed crimes. Put them in education, give them food and shelter, and they'll be better able to contribute to society when they get out.
- tw04 5y ago
  They should have the option of school or work, with a minimum GPA required to stay in school. The biggest issue will be supervision of the grading to ensure it's not being abused either to punish people who are doing well or to let people off who aren't actually doing their work.
awb 5y ago
I’d pass on the forced labor part, but make work at a going rate optional. Bring separated from everyone and everything you love is punishment enough in many cases.
smt88 5y ago
Forced labor is an incentive to incarcerate more people. Incarceration should not be profitable. It would be better to give them daily education, therapy, recreation, etc. They have piloted such programs in the US with a lot of success at preventing recidivism. All of this can save costs in the long run. Paying for prison security, medical costs, maintenance, turnover, and recidivism is extremely expensive.
lapsedacademic 5y ago
Forced labor in a fixed geographic region with strict security requirements is fundamentally incongruent with pricing power. I think prisoners should have the option to work and that they should be subject to all of the normal worker protection laws. Wages can go toward some combination of restitution and improving quality of life in prisons: food, lodging, entertainment in off hours, etc. Restitution should be limited to a fixed percentage of monthly income (as it is in the civilian world). Why? Because removing positive reinforcement from the act of labor has perverse psychological effects. These effects persist after incarceration and contribute to recidivism. This sort of system is insufficiently punitive for some, so the politics of these reforms are tricky.
- notdemo88 5y ago
circleit 5y ago
Look up CCI in Colorado. They pay almost nothing for prisoners to work in industries like manufacturing. They then sell these products to businesses so they can claim it was made in the USA (so awesome!). It’s all slave labor essentially. Then, with the skills these people learn, when they’re released they can’t get hired because they have a record. Whole thing is a disgusting joke. Taking advantage of people that ended up in their situation because they never had direction or opportunities to begin with. (Should mention they just got a new director and she is really awesome. Came from the women’s bean project. Hope she can make some positive change but she’ll have to fight a lot of bureaucracy.)
lostcolony 5y ago
I'd be happy if we'd just get over this vindictive need to deprive prisoners of basic pleasures. I've seen outrage over the idea that prisoners have access to TVs, or gaming consoles, or similar, stories of wardens confiscating books and pen and paper and such. I understand there are some other concerns that may warrant keeping usage of some of those under surveillance or similar (keep a pencil from being used as a shiv say), but other countries don't try and make prisons as miserable an experience as possible, and they have far, far lower rates of recidivism and violence and such.
- tristor 5y ago
  > I'd be happy if we'd just get over this vindictive need to deprive prisoners of basic pleasures. I won't argue that there aren't some people who have such a vindictive need, but in most cases where I've had conversations with folks about things like this, it's more that they oppose someone having a similar (or maybe "better") quality of life to what they have, without working to pay for it, and rather being paid for by them. The opposition to these things in prisons seem similar to the arguments I hear from people against social safety net things generally. Not to say these arguments are reasonable, but I don't think vindictiveness is the primary driving factor.
  - quacked 5y ago
    I understand their frustration, but I think it's a win-win situation to provide a nice life in prison. They get out of society so we don't have to deal with them and they also aren't subject to torturous conditions.
  - elliekelly 5y ago
    Is there a word that means the opposite of schadenfreude? Displeasure at the advancement of others?
    - WalterBright 5y ago
      envy

simmanian 5y ago

I believe we should focus on separating criminals from non-criminals instead of punishing and torturing them. Give them an environment where they can thrive without being harmful to themselves and others. Let them re-join the society ONLY when they pose acceptable risk. This means violent criminals may never get to re-join the society, but that's okay given that they are still given a humane environment where they can stay healthy and thrive.

watwut 5y ago
Basically, you suggest even longer sentences in country that already leads incarceration rates worldwide.
cm2012 5y ago
Sounds like a pretty good compromise for public safety
quacked 5y ago
I agree with you, I just think it would take a lot more money and effort to provide this environment.
- serverholic 5y ago
  Ending the war on drugs would open up some room
mnw21cam 5y ago
Isn't that basically how Australia was populated?
- 6gvONxR4sf7o 5y ago
  Australia was populated long before that. 100k or so convicts shipped over a century probably means fewer than 50k shipped-convict population at once, compared to an 800k aboriginal population (plus or minus a lot).
AlexTWithBeard 5y ago

mensetmanusman 5y ago

A family member was in prison for petty theft and breaking parole for over 25 years. When they got out, they didn’t even know how to drive because it started from teenage years (abusive father). I was shocked that the state didn’t spend an ounce of energy to at least teach these people basic skills. Now they are forced to live in cities where they are more likely to interact with bad influences. Anyway, I wonder if driving could be part of reform. E.g. let them be a part of the driving economy to build skills and support the nation.

kgran 5y ago
I know a little about car-dependency in the US, but sheesh... I am always astounded how such things like driving being a basic skill or having a car being a necessity are unquestionable parts of living and culture there.
- smegger001 5y ago
  it comes form having sparse sidewalks, no bikelanes and low desity so everything is far apart.

scythe 5y ago

I mean the "obvious" alternative that satisfies those predicates is house arrest: separated from society, not in danger from other prisoners. So I'd ask: What prevents us from using house arrest as an alternative to imprisonment more often? How can those problems be addressed? Can we "build a better house arrest" -- maybe even from within the private sector?

namelessoracle 5y ago

Prison is fundamentally flawed from a conceptual basis. Is the idea to reform someone? To make them not repeat their crime? Is it to punish? It is to discourage? It does none of these job as well as it could. Lets take for an example a semi successful drug dealer. Odds are the drug dealer choose that profession because the rewards were higher than the risks. So to discourage that you can 1) make prison so terrible he fears it more than the rewards from dealing 2) teach him something that is of comparable economic utility so he no longer wants to deal drugs. The problem is that option 2 is arguably a reward. If you create incentives to break rules ("I break the law and sell drugs, my punishment is that i get locked away from X years and be forced to learn a trade or get a degree") then why wouldnt you break rules? We seem to pretend we dont want 1. But I've seen plenty of comments from conservatives about how the criminals deserve what they get, and oddly enough I also hear "dont drop the soap" jokes from liberals when its people they dont like.... Then you have for example murderers. Quite a few murderers will probably never murder again. The man who kills his wife and her lover after catching them in bed, is probably not going to be killing anyone again. It was that set of situations that drove them to that. What more can the person do than classes on impulse control? And your going to get them to learn that by putting them in the place where the impulse stimulus is completely different than the regular world? What does life or a lengthy prison accomplish if punishment/deterrence is not the goal? Thats not even getting into the fact that prison is the main mental health provider for anyone with serious issues who cant get family to take care of them. (and even people who have family might not be able to afford their particular issues). A person with severe schizophrenia who attacks others can't really be reformed The only real fix is to be honest about what the goal of "prison" is. And break the concept out into reform, containment, and punishment. At least then you can optimize towards those goals.

the_jeremy 5y ago
Making prison worse is unlikely to help[0] in that harsher sentences already don't help reduce crime. [0]: https://www.ojp.gov/pdffiles1/nij/247350.pdf https://www.ojp.gov/pdffiles1/nij/247350.pdf
- namelessoracle 5y ago

inglor_cz 5y ago

Or school reform.

pasquinelli 5y ago

also a good reason to avoid social media.