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I have mixed feelings about this, and I certainly think it’s not as clear cut as HN is converging on, although I share the same instincts. On the one hand, yes

I have mixed feelings about this, and I certainly think it’s not as clear cut as HN is converging on, although I share the same instincts. On the one hand, yes, science should be completely open and unhindered by geopolitics. But recall that Trump was in the White House at the time. We are a community of generally highly educated nerds with a strong understanding of science and engineering. We understand that all labs will have leaks, we often have first hand experience of the difficulty of making any system truly secure. We’re also probably not interested in making big political gains from this - rather our discussion might be “omg that’s terrible what went wrong and how do we prevent it from happening again.” But Trump, his party, and many many people in the West would care only for the political capital they could make from it, with potentially catastrophic results that would make COVID look relatively minor. At a time when a global pandemic requires international cooperation and focus, these decisions are very very difficult and we shouldn’t be too hasty to judge.

raxxorrax 5y ago
Trump is irrelevant here, in fact I believe a lot of people voting for him out of spite because they felt they had been lied to by the other party. You will not improve the situation with more paternalism. That is has degraded to "owning the libs" is a predictable result. Yes, people jump to conclusion, but if you want to build a society of trust, you let some people jump. Others will hit the breaks if no conclusive information is available. Trump is not an excuse to withhold information at all. You have to make sure that the uncertainty of the information is clearly communicated. > we shouldn’t be too hasty to judge. You do judge yourself at the time you withhold information because you declared people incapable to making the same judgement.
- KingOfCoders 5y ago
  - Tenoke 5y ago
    This is the kind of extremely simplistic view one holds if they only get their news via The Daily Show or are in a massive echo chamber that tells them their opponents are cartoon villains. Such events are rarely so conveniently mono-causal and it should be easy to disprove for yourself if you weren't just looking for a convenient narrative given that Trump had significant minority vote (30-38% of Hispanics, Asian and other ethnicities).
    - KingOfCoders 5y ago
      First of, using "they" and "simplistic view" in one sentence doesn't work, because it makes a generalized simplistic argument while using itself. "disprove for yourself if you weren't just looking for a convenient narrative given" How does "Millions of white Trumps voters are racist" contradict "that Trump had significant minority vote (30-38% of Hispanics [...]"? First it assumes Hispanics can't be racists - everyone can be a racist, racism isn't a "white" thing. Second those Hispanics also want a 50s America with wealth, a good job, traditional values and a future. That was the reason many of them or their parents came to the US (if they haven't been conquered during the expansion of the US to the west, e.g. in the Mexican-American war of conquest). And the most ardent fighters against immigration are those who immigrated last. Trump is a sexists but more women voted for Trump. Of course things are not mono causal, but than what is? There is not one reason the Earth goes around the sun exactly in the way it does, nevertheless we talk about gravity as a thing. Or the apple falls down the way it does, nevertheless we talk about gravity. The US enjoyed a boom for various reasons in the 50s and on average people in the US became (or perceived themselves) poorer since then - also for various reasons. People want the 50s back with neat houses, nice cars and a life time job from General Motors. Todays world is complicated and the reasons for why the US and other countries are in the state they are is complicated. And the 50s in the mind of many people was nice and simple. But for Trump voters it boils down to the rise of black people and hispanics(as can be seen in spike of growth in resentment after Obama became president and millions felt they are ruled by a black person now, e.g. see spike in militia groups). Instead of understanding the reasons for the downfall in (perceived) wealth it boils down to a zero sum game where "what other people get, I don't have". The fall of the American empire since 1990 has accelerated this believe and has lead to Trumps "make America great again". I'm with Forrest Gump, “Stupid is as stupid does". Not about what people think or how they see themselves. Were 1933 Germans racist? Götz Aly has shown ("Der Volksstaat") that Germans profited a lot from Hitler materially, so were they racists or just opportunists? Racists explain the world in races and declare themselves victims of another race (Jews, Blacks, Tutsi, ...). Racist people very seldom see themselves as racist. People become racists when they think they are unfairly treated compared to others and when they get into dire economic circumstances.
  - raxxorrax 5y ago
    Sorry, I don't believe this story at all. I believe this is a story people tell themselves to feel better about "the others". The whole analytic lens of white people against minorities is purely made up in my opinion and I have seen no evidence to the contrary. On the other side justification was made up for real institutional discrimination against white people with the same lies that spawned accusations like this. But that wasn't to combat racism, it was to satisfy egoistical vanity and weak characters. I belong to a minority and I feel pressured to state this whenever I engage with people that bring forward such ideas and that is not a mistake. Back to reality: People never cared much about race. There are some exceptions to this and there is still prejudice against certain minorities. But I firmly believe your characterization doesn't understand the perspective of Trump supporters very well.
    - KingOfCoders 5y ago
      "The whole analytic lens of white people against minorities is purely made up in my opinion and I have seen no evidence to the contrary." There are hundreds of interviews with Trump supporters or Brexiteers that say exactly what I have said. So how you arrive at "have seen no evidence" is astonishing to me. There are election posters for Brexit that are racist. There are books about the topic of people in the UK wantig the Empire back for its racism. "Back to reality: People never cared much about race." Ah yes, Ruanda never happened. Or thousands of pogroms. Or the thousands of public hangings in the South of the US. "People do not care about race."
      - raxxorrax 5y ago
        This is getting off topic fast. I disagree, I believe a large part of the opposition you declare racist is not. Reactionary might make sense and it is very closely related to how information was handled here.
- randomsearch 5y ago
  > if you want to build a society of trust, you let some people jump. If you want to build a society of trust, you need a sane president.
secondcoming 5y ago
I don’t understand your point. Trump is the only leader who gave people the truth and was lambasted for it.
- dijit 5y ago
  I don’t think you can seriously argue in good faith that Trump ‘gave people the truth’, he said whatever came to his mind. Sometimes it was pure fantasy, mostly it was deflection. Perhaps sometimes it was truth, but only in the same way a broken clock is correct twice a day.
- dgb23 5y ago
  Both the US and the Chinese governments downplayed and lied about the severity of the virus. For months.
  - cocoggu 5y ago
    I don't know much about US, but for China it didn't last for months, 1 or 2 weeks maybe. It has been notified to the WHO at the beginning of January, on 23 January Wuhan was going full lockdown. And not lockdown like in the West, citizens were not allowed to step a foot outside even for groceries and the army was bringing rations to the people. I remember then in March, a French newspaper highlighting how PRC hid the severity of the virus... I mean if they took these extreme measures in Wuhan, it's certainly not for a mild virus.
- dTal 5y ago
  That's a laughably generous take. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veracity_of_statements_by_Donald_Trump#COVID-19_pandemic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veracity_of_statements_by_Dona...
  - konfin 5y ago
josteink 5y ago
> On the one hand, yes, science should be completely open and unhindered by geopolitics. > > But recall that Trump was in the White House at the time. And so? Does the name of the current US president alter unrelated facts and findings?
- frockington1 5y ago
  It's almost a religious cause to some people. If _______ is in Office than I must do anything I can to protect or remove them. I think it's a symptom of watching to much cable news and not talking to real people with opposing views. Sadly this spills over into what should be research and fact based studies
  - rhino369 5y ago
    You don't think an experiment killing 20 million people is worth it if we can make sure Trump doesn't have a good media-cycle? What are you some sort of fascist.
sumedh 5y ago
> At a time when a global pandemic requires international cooperation and focus Someone should tell that to China.
daveaiello 5y ago
> But Trump, his party, and many many people in the West would care only for the political capital they could make from it, with potentially catastrophic results that would make COVID look relatively minor. There are plenty of people who voted for Trump and other Republican candidates who have scientific and engineering backgrounds. If I had to try to characterize those people, in terms of what makes them different from the science and engineering people who tend to vote Democratic, it is that the Trump / Republican supporters tend to be the entrepreneurs or senior management people in private industry, while the Democratic supporters are often management and staff at institutions in or aligned with government, health, and education. It’s not fair at all to say that Republican-supporting science and engineering people care only for the political capital they can make. They actually want many of the same things as the Democratic-supporting scientists and engineers do— to prevent this from happening again. The difference is that in this case, the Republican-supporters wanted their viewpoints to be freely debated, not denigrated by the mainstream media and/or censored by social media.
- AmericanBlarney 5y ago
  This might take the cake for the dumbest comment I've ever read on HN. With absolutely zero data/evidence, you're trying to categorize the views of millions of people, along with their professional qualifications. This is probably why the mainstream denigrates your views.
Siira 5y ago
You know who else brings up the boogiemen every time they are caught red-handed? The Islamic Republic of Iran. Why, they are currently saying in their own media that they hitting the Ukrainian airplane with missiles was a heroic act that avoided a potential war with Trump.

raxxorrax 5y ago

Trump is irrelevant here, in fact I believe a lot of people voting for him out of spite because they felt they had been lied to by the other party. You will not improve the situation with more paternalism. That is has degraded to "owning the libs" is a predictable result. Yes, people jump to conclusion, but if you want to build a society of trust, you let some people jump. Others will hit the breaks if no conclusive information is available. Trump is not an excuse to withhold information at all. You have to make sure that the uncertainty of the information is clearly communicated. > we shouldn’t be too hasty to judge. You do judge yourself at the time you withhold information because you declared people incapable to making the same judgement.

KingOfCoders 5y ago
- Tenoke 5y ago
  This is the kind of extremely simplistic view one holds if they only get their news via The Daily Show or are in a massive echo chamber that tells them their opponents are cartoon villains. Such events are rarely so conveniently mono-causal and it should be easy to disprove for yourself if you weren't just looking for a convenient narrative given that Trump had significant minority vote (30-38% of Hispanics, Asian and other ethnicities).
  - KingOfCoders 5y ago
    First of, using "they" and "simplistic view" in one sentence doesn't work, because it makes a generalized simplistic argument while using itself. "disprove for yourself if you weren't just looking for a convenient narrative given" How does "Millions of white Trumps voters are racist" contradict "that Trump had significant minority vote (30-38% of Hispanics [...]"? First it assumes Hispanics can't be racists - everyone can be a racist, racism isn't a "white" thing. Second those Hispanics also want a 50s America with wealth, a good job, traditional values and a future. That was the reason many of them or their parents came to the US (if they haven't been conquered during the expansion of the US to the west, e.g. in the Mexican-American war of conquest). And the most ardent fighters against immigration are those who immigrated last. Trump is a sexists but more women voted for Trump. Of course things are not mono causal, but than what is? There is not one reason the Earth goes around the sun exactly in the way it does, nevertheless we talk about gravity as a thing. Or the apple falls down the way it does, nevertheless we talk about gravity. The US enjoyed a boom for various reasons in the 50s and on average people in the US became (or perceived themselves) poorer since then - also for various reasons. People want the 50s back with neat houses, nice cars and a life time job from General Motors. Todays world is complicated and the reasons for why the US and other countries are in the state they are is complicated. And the 50s in the mind of many people was nice and simple. But for Trump voters it boils down to the rise of black people and hispanics(as can be seen in spike of growth in resentment after Obama became president and millions felt they are ruled by a black person now, e.g. see spike in militia groups). Instead of understanding the reasons for the downfall in (perceived) wealth it boils down to a zero sum game where "what other people get, I don't have". The fall of the American empire since 1990 has accelerated this believe and has lead to Trumps "make America great again". I'm with Forrest Gump, “Stupid is as stupid does". Not about what people think or how they see themselves. Were 1933 Germans racist? Götz Aly has shown ("Der Volksstaat") that Germans profited a lot from Hitler materially, so were they racists or just opportunists? Racists explain the world in races and declare themselves victims of another race (Jews, Blacks, Tutsi, ...). Racist people very seldom see themselves as racist. People become racists when they think they are unfairly treated compared to others and when they get into dire economic circumstances.
- raxxorrax 5y ago
  Sorry, I don't believe this story at all. I believe this is a story people tell themselves to feel better about "the others". The whole analytic lens of white people against minorities is purely made up in my opinion and I have seen no evidence to the contrary. On the other side justification was made up for real institutional discrimination against white people with the same lies that spawned accusations like this. But that wasn't to combat racism, it was to satisfy egoistical vanity and weak characters. I belong to a minority and I feel pressured to state this whenever I engage with people that bring forward such ideas and that is not a mistake. Back to reality: People never cared much about race. There are some exceptions to this and there is still prejudice against certain minorities. But I firmly believe your characterization doesn't understand the perspective of Trump supporters very well.
  - KingOfCoders 5y ago
    "The whole analytic lens of white people against minorities is purely made up in my opinion and I have seen no evidence to the contrary." There are hundreds of interviews with Trump supporters or Brexiteers that say exactly what I have said. So how you arrive at "have seen no evidence" is astonishing to me. There are election posters for Brexit that are racist. There are books about the topic of people in the UK wantig the Empire back for its racism. "Back to reality: People never cared much about race." Ah yes, Ruanda never happened. Or thousands of pogroms. Or the thousands of public hangings in the South of the US. "People do not care about race."
    - raxxorrax 5y ago
      This is getting off topic fast. I disagree, I believe a large part of the opposition you declare racist is not. Reactionary might make sense and it is very closely related to how information was handled here.
randomsearch 5y ago
> if you want to build a society of trust, you let some people jump. If you want to build a society of trust, you need a sane president.

secondcoming 5y ago

I don’t understand your point. Trump is the only leader who gave people the truth and was lambasted for it.

dijit 5y ago
I don’t think you can seriously argue in good faith that Trump ‘gave people the truth’, he said whatever came to his mind. Sometimes it was pure fantasy, mostly it was deflection. Perhaps sometimes it was truth, but only in the same way a broken clock is correct twice a day.
dgb23 5y ago
Both the US and the Chinese governments downplayed and lied about the severity of the virus. For months.
- cocoggu 5y ago
  I don't know much about US, but for China it didn't last for months, 1 or 2 weeks maybe. It has been notified to the WHO at the beginning of January, on 23 January Wuhan was going full lockdown. And not lockdown like in the West, citizens were not allowed to step a foot outside even for groceries and the army was bringing rations to the people. I remember then in March, a French newspaper highlighting how PRC hid the severity of the virus... I mean if they took these extreme measures in Wuhan, it's certainly not for a mild virus.
dTal 5y ago
That's a laughably generous take. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veracity_of_statements_by_Donald_Trump#COVID-19_pandemic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veracity_of_statements_by_Dona...
- konfin 5y ago

josteink 5y ago

> On the one hand, yes, science should be completely open and unhindered by geopolitics. > > But recall that Trump was in the White House at the time. And so? Does the name of the current US president alter unrelated facts and findings?

frockington1 5y ago
It's almost a religious cause to some people. If _______ is in Office than I must do anything I can to protect or remove them. I think it's a symptom of watching to much cable news and not talking to real people with opposing views. Sadly this spills over into what should be research and fact based studies
- rhino369 5y ago
  You don't think an experiment killing 20 million people is worth it if we can make sure Trump doesn't have a good media-cycle? What are you some sort of fascist.

sumedh 5y ago

> At a time when a global pandemic requires international cooperation and focus Someone should tell that to China.

daveaiello 5y ago

> But Trump, his party, and many many people in the West would care only for the political capital they could make from it, with potentially catastrophic results that would make COVID look relatively minor. There are plenty of people who voted for Trump and other Republican candidates who have scientific and engineering backgrounds. If I had to try to characterize those people, in terms of what makes them different from the science and engineering people who tend to vote Democratic, it is that the Trump / Republican supporters tend to be the entrepreneurs or senior management people in private industry, while the Democratic supporters are often management and staff at institutions in or aligned with government, health, and education. It’s not fair at all to say that Republican-supporting science and engineering people care only for the political capital they can make. They actually want many of the same things as the Democratic-supporting scientists and engineers do— to prevent this from happening again. The difference is that in this case, the Republican-supporters wanted their viewpoints to be freely debated, not denigrated by the mainstream media and/or censored by social media.

AmericanBlarney 5y ago
This might take the cake for the dumbest comment I've ever read on HN. With absolutely zero data/evidence, you're trying to categorize the views of millions of people, along with their professional qualifications. This is probably why the mainstream denigrates your views.

Siira 5y ago

You know who else brings up the boogiemen every time they are caught red-handed? The Islamic Republic of Iran. Why, they are currently saying in their own media that they hitting the Ukrainian airplane with missiles was a heroic act that avoided a potential war with Trump.