7 ms·

Inflammation in the gut is encoded by neurons in the brain

191 points by nabla9 5y ago

echelon 5y ago
It feels like we're on the precipice of linking a number of neurodegenerative diseases [1], auto-immune diseases [2], and a whole host of other ailments to immune and gut health. Likewise finding incredible links for liver (potentially Alzheimer's [3]) and pulmonary health (air quality, heart disease [4]). Who knew? But it seems obvious in retrospect. We're truly dynamical, vastly interlinked systems. [1] https://bmcmedicine.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12916-020-01885-3 https://bmcmedicine.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s1291... [2] https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/02/190219080742.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/02/190219080742.h... [3] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29393937 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29393937 [4] https://www.epa.gov/sciencematters/linking-air-pollution-and-heart-disease https://www.epa.gov/sciencematters/linking-air-pollution-and...
- CoastalCoder 5y ago
  That's my hope as well. But that's somewhat tempered by reports of reproducibility crises in scientific / academic research. I wish I had a better sense of the extent to which that matters for stories like this.
eli_gottlieb 5y ago
>Writing in Cell, Koren et al.3 demonstrate that inflammation in the abdominal cavity results in the stimulation of certain neurons in a brain area called the insular cortex, or the insula. Artificial reactivation of these ‘immune-imprinted’ neurons is sufficient to generate organ-specific recall of inflammatory responses that resemble the initial inflammatory episode. Ok, so there are gut/vagal interoceptors for inflammation. Their ascending fibers land in the insula, which is, of course, the primary interoceptive cortex. What's new here?
- ramraj07 5y ago
  What’s new is that the neurons can trigger back the same inflammation that got imprinted on them.
  - 52-6F-62 5y ago
    I don't have access to the article, and I'm probably not versed enough to understand it fully anyway. So, if I may ask you, or the larger thread— this is implying the the inflammation will repeat if the neurons are activated [in such a way]? Could/would this impact one-time sufferers of SIRS and/or acute pancreatitis (being an inflammatory disease)? Would it match the original severity?
  - eli_gottlieb 5y ago
    They don't seem to have disentangled whether the same sensation of inflammation is triggered, or whether the actual inflammation is triggered by some visceromotor mechanism.
csours 5y ago
Is there a good intermediate/undergraduate level write up of this inflammation link? There's a lot of quackery out there on this subject, so I don't trust search results.
- sooheon 5y ago
  Seems like a novel finding, so the paper in OP's link (and references) would be the best place to start.
Ozzie_osman 5y ago
I wonder if this has implications for pain management as well. Ie is the brain doing the same thing for things like chronic back pain (the pain triggers some neural imprint, but the imprint can then trigger the pain again even if the underlying physical problem had gone away).
treeman79 5y ago
Having dealt with an autoimmune condition and been involved with various forums I have seen a strong pattern. First trying lots of medications. Sometimes this goes well. Sometimes not. Then supplements. Then eventually people get serious about diet. Turns out there is a diet built around autoimmune conditions. Autoimmune Protocol Diet. Many people have great success with it. Not all. Would love so see some studies on it.
wombatmobile 5y ago
I'm not sure how to discuss TFA because I can only read half a paragraph of it due to the paywall. Instead of commenting speculatively, I'm going to wait for someone to post more of the article, or a link to the full article.
bryan0 5y ago
non-paywalled summary?
- giovani 5y ago
  [PDF] https://media.nature.com/original/magazine-assets/d41586-021-03802-x/d41586-021-03802-x.pdf https://media.nature.com/original/magazine-assets/d41586-021...
panabee 5y ago
Article on related research: https://www.quantamagazine.org/new-science-shows-immune-memory-in-the-brain-20211108/ https://www.quantamagazine.org/new-science-shows-immune-memo... Summary of article on related research: More than a century later, in a paper published today in Cell, the neuroimmunologist Asya Rolls has shown that a similar kind of conditioning extends to immune responses. Using state-of-the-art genetic tools in mice, her team at the Technion in Haifa, Israel, identified brain neurons that became active during experimentally induced inflammation in the abdomen. Later, the researchers showed that restimulating those neurons could trigger the same types of inflammation again.
andrewpkyap 5y ago
I don't think that it's wise to start imagining how this finding would implicate diseases, much less "other diseases".
skim_milk 5y ago
For me, the thing that sucks most about IBS is the medication. The link between mind/body/pain/inflammation is pretty obvious when you start taking strong anti-inflammatory drugs, at least for me! Evidently, everyone in my family tree responds really poorly to steroids and other anti-inflammatory drugs - a relative of mine committed suicide after taking steroids for IBS with absolutely no evident mental problems before treatment, leaving behind his young family. Personally, I'd rather die early from my gut diseases than go back on anti-inflammatory drugs, even the modern biologic ones that supposedly have no side-effects. There's just no way to target inflammation with drugs without severely impacting the brain (at least with me and my family's biology).
- serverholic 5y ago
  I have autonomic-dysfunction, basically my nervous system malfunctions in (luckily) mild ways. I've noticed that if I go from an unhealthy lifestyle to suddenly living a healthy lifestyle there's often a period where I feel sick, pale, and faint. Luckily this effect only lasts a few days for me but it's made me wonder if our bodies find ways around malfunctioning and then can't adjust quickly enough if the malfunction is reduced or removed.
  - skim_milk 5y ago
    That's interesting! My situation is the exact opposite, there's a very tight positive correlation between good mental health and reduced gut symptoms. e.g. my gut problems completely disappear when I'm driving or hiking, my favorite activities. Gut problems re-appear with mental stress, and find me a toilet fast! Really I couldn't have asked for a better problem to deal with. The correlation between mind/gut health is so instantaneous and powerful, my child brain got Pavlovian-conditioned to deal with mental stress. I couldn't just dissociate from mental pain, I really had to understand and deal with causes of stress in a healthy way, otherwise I would be forced to the floor in the fetal position from all the cramps. Platitudes about always listening to your gut are funny, taken both literally and figuratively that's my life!
    - 5y ago
dekhn 5y ago
a note: when Nature says "Inflammation in the gut is encoded by neurons in the brain" it really means "some inflammation in the gut is associated with neurons in the brain". Not "all", just some. scientists and science journalists often write PR that makes the work sound more general than it is. And "encoded" is a really squishy term. Just because neurons "light up" when you apply a condition, and can replicate that condition under some circumstances, doesn't mean the data is "encoded".
throwaway5743 5y ago
Using a throwaway account. I was diagnosed with Ulceritive Colitis about 2 years ago. Took all sorts of medication. All the docs I consulted told me diet has nothing to do it and its just my body developing auto-immune symptoms. My symptoms be came severe to the point I was having bloody stools (lots of blood) few times a day and I could not walk more than few mins. Decided to quit my work. Took few courses on Biology. Specifically on or related to: Physiology, Brain, Harmones, Cell and Gut. Read about 20 or so books on Gut, Food and Pharma (trying to understand how it evolved and the ecomonic models, how the FDA is the single boss of both the cop (Health Industry) and the con (Food Industry)). Started experimenting with foods and logging results in a food diary. Got the tests done for Food Intolerances. Avoided foods that are causing food intolerances. Avoided too spicey foods and non-veg food: Mutton, Chicken, Fish and Eggs. Taking a lot of fiber rich foods: Gourds and switched to millets (its traditional indian grains). Taking Marshmellow root and ginger tea two times a day. Eating Millet Porridge for almost two months now. Taking help from a nutrionist and functional medicine expert to make sure I am eating a balanced diet and meeting the nutrition requirements of my body. Happy to let you all know, after what it felt like an endless suffering, I am back to healthy life and have not noticed blood in stools for past 3 weeks. I am getting better and better. Time between my flare ups has been increasing gradually. can walk for hours at a stretch. I see a path to beating my gut problems. Functional Medicine and gut expert: http://www.makeingut.com/ http://www.makeingut.com/ Traditional Food Expert: Dr. Khader Valli (aka the Millet Man of India) https://manavata.org/khadervali/ https://manavata.org/khadervali/
sxv 5y ago
This lends some support to the controversial work of Dr. John Sarno which proposes that chronic back pain (among others) is a psychosomatic condition.
zsolt224 5y ago
For me, nothing worked except 1h feeding window a day. So basically I eat once a day, about 2200 - 2600 calories. What is strange is that I can literally eat any food like pizza and it does not matter. Before I had non-stop diarrhea, bloating, diagnosed allergies to almost every food, bad whole body eczema… It’s not placebo since I started this diet for longevity and not for the reasons above. So when my symptoms went away I was genuinely surprised.
- ilikecode 5y ago
  What made you determine that a specific 1 hour window was a solution?

191 points by nabla9 5y ago

It feels like we're on the precipice of linking a number of neurodegenerative diseases [1], auto-immune diseases [2], and a whole host of other ailments to immune and gut health. Likewise finding incredible links for liver (potentially Alzheimer's [3]) and pulmonary health (air quality, heart disease [4]). Who knew? But it seems obvious in retrospect. We're truly dynamical, vastly interlinked systems. [1] https://bmcmedicine.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12916-020-01885-3 https://bmcmedicine.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s1291... [2] https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/02/190219080742.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/02/190219080742.h... [3] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29393937 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29393937 [4] https://www.epa.gov/sciencematters/linking-air-pollution-and-heart-disease https://www.epa.gov/sciencematters/linking-air-pollution-and...

CoastalCoder 5y ago
That's my hope as well. But that's somewhat tempered by reports of reproducibility crises in scientific / academic research. I wish I had a better sense of the extent to which that matters for stories like this.

eli_gottlieb 5y ago

>Writing in Cell, Koren et al.3 demonstrate that inflammation in the abdominal cavity results in the stimulation of certain neurons in a brain area called the insular cortex, or the insula. Artificial reactivation of these ‘immune-imprinted’ neurons is sufficient to generate organ-specific recall of inflammatory responses that resemble the initial inflammatory episode. Ok, so there are gut/vagal interoceptors for inflammation. Their ascending fibers land in the insula, which is, of course, the primary interoceptive cortex. What's new here?

ramraj07 5y ago
What’s new is that the neurons can trigger back the same inflammation that got imprinted on them.
- 52-6F-62 5y ago
  I don't have access to the article, and I'm probably not versed enough to understand it fully anyway. So, if I may ask you, or the larger thread— this is implying the the inflammation will repeat if the neurons are activated [in such a way]? Could/would this impact one-time sufferers of SIRS and/or acute pancreatitis (being an inflammatory disease)? Would it match the original severity?
- eli_gottlieb 5y ago
  They don't seem to have disentangled whether the same sensation of inflammation is triggered, or whether the actual inflammation is triggered by some visceromotor mechanism.

csours 5y ago

Is there a good intermediate/undergraduate level write up of this inflammation link? There's a lot of quackery out there on this subject, so I don't trust search results.

sooheon 5y ago
Seems like a novel finding, so the paper in OP's link (and references) would be the best place to start.

Ozzie_osman 5y ago

I wonder if this has implications for pain management as well. Ie is the brain doing the same thing for things like chronic back pain (the pain triggers some neural imprint, but the imprint can then trigger the pain again even if the underlying physical problem had gone away).

treeman79 5y ago

Having dealt with an autoimmune condition and been involved with various forums I have seen a strong pattern. First trying lots of medications. Sometimes this goes well. Sometimes not. Then supplements. Then eventually people get serious about diet. Turns out there is a diet built around autoimmune conditions. Autoimmune Protocol Diet. Many people have great success with it. Not all. Would love so see some studies on it.

wombatmobile 5y ago

I'm not sure how to discuss TFA because I can only read half a paragraph of it due to the paywall. Instead of commenting speculatively, I'm going to wait for someone to post more of the article, or a link to the full article.

bryan0 5y ago

non-paywalled summary?

giovani 5y ago
[PDF] https://media.nature.com/original/magazine-assets/d41586-021-03802-x/d41586-021-03802-x.pdf https://media.nature.com/original/magazine-assets/d41586-021...

panabee 5y ago

Article on related research: https://www.quantamagazine.org/new-science-shows-immune-memory-in-the-brain-20211108/ https://www.quantamagazine.org/new-science-shows-immune-memo... Summary of article on related research: More than a century later, in a paper published today in Cell, the neuroimmunologist Asya Rolls has shown that a similar kind of conditioning extends to immune responses. Using state-of-the-art genetic tools in mice, her team at the Technion in Haifa, Israel, identified brain neurons that became active during experimentally induced inflammation in the abdomen. Later, the researchers showed that restimulating those neurons could trigger the same types of inflammation again.

andrewpkyap 5y ago

I don't think that it's wise to start imagining how this finding would implicate diseases, much less "other diseases".

skim_milk 5y ago

For me, the thing that sucks most about IBS is the medication. The link between mind/body/pain/inflammation is pretty obvious when you start taking strong anti-inflammatory drugs, at least for me! Evidently, everyone in my family tree responds really poorly to steroids and other anti-inflammatory drugs - a relative of mine committed suicide after taking steroids for IBS with absolutely no evident mental problems before treatment, leaving behind his young family. Personally, I'd rather die early from my gut diseases than go back on anti-inflammatory drugs, even the modern biologic ones that supposedly have no side-effects. There's just no way to target inflammation with drugs without severely impacting the brain (at least with me and my family's biology).

serverholic 5y ago
I have autonomic-dysfunction, basically my nervous system malfunctions in (luckily) mild ways. I've noticed that if I go from an unhealthy lifestyle to suddenly living a healthy lifestyle there's often a period where I feel sick, pale, and faint. Luckily this effect only lasts a few days for me but it's made me wonder if our bodies find ways around malfunctioning and then can't adjust quickly enough if the malfunction is reduced or removed.
- skim_milk 5y ago
  That's interesting! My situation is the exact opposite, there's a very tight positive correlation between good mental health and reduced gut symptoms. e.g. my gut problems completely disappear when I'm driving or hiking, my favorite activities. Gut problems re-appear with mental stress, and find me a toilet fast! Really I couldn't have asked for a better problem to deal with. The correlation between mind/gut health is so instantaneous and powerful, my child brain got Pavlovian-conditioned to deal with mental stress. I couldn't just dissociate from mental pain, I really had to understand and deal with causes of stress in a healthy way, otherwise I would be forced to the floor in the fetal position from all the cramps. Platitudes about always listening to your gut are funny, taken both literally and figuratively that's my life!
  - 5y ago

dekhn 5y ago

a note: when Nature says "Inflammation in the gut is encoded by neurons in the brain" it really means "some inflammation in the gut is associated with neurons in the brain". Not "all", just some. scientists and science journalists often write PR that makes the work sound more general than it is. And "encoded" is a really squishy term. Just because neurons "light up" when you apply a condition, and can replicate that condition under some circumstances, doesn't mean the data is "encoded".

throwaway5743 5y ago

Using a throwaway account. I was diagnosed with Ulceritive Colitis about 2 years ago. Took all sorts of medication. All the docs I consulted told me diet has nothing to do it and its just my body developing auto-immune symptoms. My symptoms be came severe to the point I was having bloody stools (lots of blood) few times a day and I could not walk more than few mins. Decided to quit my work. Took few courses on Biology. Specifically on or related to: Physiology, Brain, Harmones, Cell and Gut. Read about 20 or so books on Gut, Food and Pharma (trying to understand how it evolved and the ecomonic models, how the FDA is the single boss of both the cop (Health Industry) and the con (Food Industry)). Started experimenting with foods and logging results in a food diary. Got the tests done for Food Intolerances. Avoided foods that are causing food intolerances. Avoided too spicey foods and non-veg food: Mutton, Chicken, Fish and Eggs. Taking a lot of fiber rich foods: Gourds and switched to millets (its traditional indian grains). Taking Marshmellow root and ginger tea two times a day. Eating Millet Porridge for almost two months now. Taking help from a nutrionist and functional medicine expert to make sure I am eating a balanced diet and meeting the nutrition requirements of my body. Happy to let you all know, after what it felt like an endless suffering, I am back to healthy life and have not noticed blood in stools for past 3 weeks. I am getting better and better. Time between my flare ups has been increasing gradually. can walk for hours at a stretch. I see a path to beating my gut problems. Functional Medicine and gut expert: http://www.makeingut.com/ http://www.makeingut.com/ Traditional Food Expert: Dr. Khader Valli (aka the Millet Man of India) https://manavata.org/khadervali/ https://manavata.org/khadervali/

sxv 5y ago

This lends some support to the controversial work of Dr. John Sarno which proposes that chronic back pain (among others) is a psychosomatic condition.

zsolt224 5y ago

For me, nothing worked except 1h feeding window a day. So basically I eat once a day, about 2200 - 2600 calories. What is strange is that I can literally eat any food like pizza and it does not matter. Before I had non-stop diarrhea, bloating, diagnosed allergies to almost every food, bad whole body eczema… It’s not placebo since I started this diet for longevity and not for the reasons above. So when my symptoms went away I was genuinely surprised.

ilikecode 5y ago
What made you determine that a specific 1 hour window was a solution?