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Thanks you for this thoughtful response. I chose to be vaccinated and unfortunately have suffered serious consequences like a very small number of other people

Thanks you for this thoughtful response. I chose to be vaccinated and unfortunately have suffered serious consequences like a very small number of other people will statistically. It's been pretty disheartening to see that sharing anything negative about vaccines, even those warned about by medical officials, leads to very negative reactions from people (being told to shut up, being censored/downvoted online etc). I honestly no longer discuss why I'm sick or why I can't do certain things with friends or co-workers.

core-utility 5y ago
That is awful to hear. I unfortunately think this entire debacle will leave a lasting distrust of our medical providers and institutions. Vaccine hesitant are already distrustful, and I believe in the coming months/year as more stand up to the censorship of these real issues, a growing number of vaccinated will feel mislead and lied to (whether justified or not). The only recovery path I can see is the return of a strong level of informed consent between patient and provider, and big tech getting out of the healthcare game.
- mauvehaus 5y ago
  A good first step might be making sure the population is educated sufficiently to identify and weigh the risks between a 1 in 1,000,000 side effect, the disease the vaccine protects against, and the pure bullshit peddled by fear mongers. Right now, we have people in the US who still believe that Covid is no worse than a bad case of the flu. All the evidence (at least for the pre Omicron variants) suggests that the reality, as viewed by death rate, is orders of magnitude more bleak.
  - core-utility 5y ago
    I'm just an anecdote, but I've had COVID. It was less than a bad case of the flu. To pretend that it affects everyone equally and that they're all the worst thing ever is malpractice. Risk communication should always have been striated by age/comorbidity and let people make decisions from there.
    - joshuahughes 5y ago
      I'm a very similar anecdote. Yes, covid sucked, but it was a mild 48hr illness in my experience. (And in the experience of dozens of my friends.) It's quite incredible that the GP can complain on the one hand about "the pure bullshit peddled by fear mongers" and then — without apparently recognising the irony — goes on to peddle fear themselves.
      - PickledHotdog 5y ago
        Congrats to you and your friends. Unfortunately that's not the case for hundreds of thousands of your compatriots and millions of your fellow humans. Conflating fear mongering around vaccines with very few cases of serious side effects (none of which are contagious) with "fear mongering" around the virus itself which has caused literally millions of deaths and untold post-infection issues for millions more is what's really quite incredible.
        native_samples 5y ago
        You don't actually know how common vaccine side effects are, because standard practice is to assume anything that happens >7 days after a vaccine isn't caused by it. This was the standard used in the trials for example. But from the paper: "the mean time to onset of symptoms [for VITT] after vaccination is 8 days ... The mean time to onset of symptoms after vaccination [for auto immune hepatitis] is 13 days, ranging from 4 to 26 days" etc. The trials had many other problems like smartphone apps for reporting side-effects that had a fixed list of 'expected' side effects, without any free-form input field to enter new ones. It's clear when you look into the details here that nearly the entire medical system is strongly biased against any findings of side effects and sets things up carefully to let them make such claims, regardless of common sense or what you might expect ethically.
        PickledHotdog 5y ago
        Surely we can deduce whether there are meaningful numbers of serious side effects by looking at past years in population data - especially in populations that have high vaccination rates. If rates have increased markedly, then there's obviously something to investigate. But as noted elsewhere, the rates seem to be 'in line' with pre-vaccine rates for a fair few side effects in a given population. They just get more press now because of the focus on health issues in the media and the hysteria around "vaccine injuries" You'll get no argument from me that reporting standards leave a bit to be desired. The trials are the trials - they could be improved, sure - but side effect reporting didn't end with trials. Plenty of governments kept tabs on side effects post vaccine once they were being widely administered
  - dev360 5y ago
    > All the evidence (at least for the pre Omicron variants) suggests that the reality, as viewed by death rate, is orders of magnitude more bleak. Dr. Rochelle Walensky, Director of CDC was actually in an interview recently where she said 75% of Covid deaths occurred in people with 4 co-morbidities. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pa7N-iNkaUE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pa7N-iNkaUE This statement begs the question of what percentile of deaths occurred with no co-morbidities at all. In my mind at least, I don't know enough about the death rate to inform if its bleak or not judging as a healthy 41 year old without complicating medical factors.
    - manwe150 5y ago
      I was looking at the CDC data for that claim, it looks to me like many of those "co-morbidities" referenced appear to be sepsis, respiratory failure, heart failure, and co-infections: https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid_weekly/index.htm?fbclid=IwAR3-wrg3tTKK5-9tOHPGAHWFVO3DfslkJ0KsDEPQpWmPbKtp6EsoVV2Qs1Q https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid_weekly/index.htm?fb... Most of those sound like they would have been caused by COVID. So, were they probably a fairly normal 41 year old, until they were in the hospitalized for COVID, developed complications, and died. Or is there more to the model here? Even more confusingly, about half of the US population is obese, but it is only mentioned in a small percentage of death reports (up to about of quarter in the younger populations). Taken naively, this would seem to imply that being obese actually strongly protects from death. But I suspect that it is instead simply not being listed in the causes of death in most cases.
    - manwe150 5y ago
      To answer my own question two weeks later, it turns out that number quoted on GMA was specifically the percentage of vaccinated people (https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/covid-deaths-4-comorbidities/ https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/covid-deaths-4-comorbiditi...). Her statement had no relevance to an unvaccinated person, as the grand-parent's comment was asking about.
walterbell 5y ago
If "information is surprise" (Claude Shannon, 1948, https://plus.maths.org/content/information-surprise https://plus.maths.org/content/information-surprise), we should be celebrating rather than censoring surprising information signals from living human outliers.
TrispusAttucks 5y ago
This saddens me greatly. I'm continually amazed at the arrogant, ignorant, and down right "head in the sand" nature that has swept across the minds of the land. Worse is that "their thoughts are not theirs". They are being taught to hate you because your truth is inconvenient. I wish you the best recovery possible.
elif 5y ago
I relate. After my vaccination I had about 2 months of severe pains in my gut. I only told a few people because I really believe in the power of the vaccine and know people will twist my own words.
- giantg2 5y ago
  Hopefully you reported to VAERS. People need to report potential events so that the data is present to do statistical analysis on. It's a shame how terrible the data currently is with all the under reporting.
  - cromwellian 5y ago
    VAERS is garbage in, garbage out. There is no curation since it is self reported, you may as well mine Reddit comments or Twitter to get the same data.
    - native_samples 5y ago
      There clearly is some curation because reports appear in the database in batches. Reports can be self reported but don't have to be. Regardless, even if everything you say is true, what it means is that governments deliberately run useless post-trial safety monitoring mechanisms. Which is terrifying and terrible. Putting all humanities eggs in one basket, literally.
    - giantg2 5y ago
      Yep, and yet it's the data the government uses for identifying issues...
    - benpiper 5y ago
      This is true of COVID "cases" and deaths as well.
      - cromwellian 5y ago
        Not really. Can have all cause mortality data from every year that tells us excess deaths. If we see a spike of 400k excess deaths for 2020 and 2021, then it’s pretty obvious how many to attribute to the virus. Additionally, if someone is pCR positive, symptom positive, and dies from a cytokine storm, that’s pretty strong evidence. But we don’t even need the latter. Excess deaths tell us approximately how many the virus killed, period, QED. There’s no denying COVID killed 10x more than the worst flu since 1918.
MaKey 5y ago
I hope your situation will improve eventually. Are you at least getting compensated?
- giantg2 5y ago
  Someone else, but my guess would be no. It's not too difficult to get compensated if your injury is on the list of known injuries. This being a new vaccine, there is not a lot of history to have produced a robust list. If it's not on the list, you have to prove that it was more likely than not caused by the vaccine. You have to provide the theory for the underlying mechanism that caused it. So if it's really rare, you're screwed because there likely hasn't been much if any research on it. Then it will take a minimum of 3 years to into a courtroom because the government has left the vaccine courts severely understaffed. Dealing with something similar in my family. I believe it's an autoimmune autonomic dysfunction issue brought on by multiple simultaneously administered vaccines. This presented a few days after vaccination and the doctors didn't even report it to VAERS! They had no explanation of the cause yet didn't care to report it as a possible event simply because it's not required by law or "I'm not the primary care physician".
giantg2 5y ago
Good luck with any compensation. I hear it's even harder to get compensated through the countermeasure program than the regular vaccine program.
- mizzack 5y ago
  Yep, a lot of people are unaware that this is covered by a separate, wildly different program. The coverages are outlined here: https://www.hrsa.gov/cicp/cicp-vicp https://www.hrsa.gov/cicp/cicp-vicp CICP only covers severe physical injury or death, has a 1 year filing limit, only covers related reimbursement (not pain and suffering), and is eligibility is an administrative decision (not a judicial one).
benpiper 5y ago
I'm sorry to hear that. We need your voice. There are people who still haven't gotten "vaccinated" and are under pressure to do so. By speaking up you might be able to save someone else from what you're going through. Please don't let people shut you down. Your personal experience is the gold standard of scientific and clinical evidence. Any pushback you get is irrational and based on fear and ignorance.
- credit_guy 5y ago
  > By speaking up you might be able to save someone else from what you're going through. Exactly how? By not getting vaccinated? By making sure the risk of side-effects from the vaccine is lower than the risk of getting the disease? How can you weigh these risks? You can say, by doing statistics. You need to be able do estimate conditional expectations, the more granular the conditions, the better. For example you start with the unconditional expectation of having a severe outcome from Covid vs from the vaccine. The vaccine wins hands down. Then you do expectation conditional on age. The FDA and CDC did that when issuing their approval, and making the recommendations for various age groups. For more granular conditions, the CDC maintains the VAERS database [1], where every adverse event linked to a vaccine is tabulated. For example, let's say the CDC analyses this data set and concludes that for people with kidney stones the vaccine's side-effects outweigh the benefits. The CDC will issue the appropriate recommendation. How exactly do you think someone's "voice on the internet" will result in people making better informed decisions, vs people actually listening to the CDC recommendations? [1] https://vaers.hhs.gov/ https://vaers.hhs.gov/

core-utility 5y ago

That is awful to hear. I unfortunately think this entire debacle will leave a lasting distrust of our medical providers and institutions. Vaccine hesitant are already distrustful, and I believe in the coming months/year as more stand up to the censorship of these real issues, a growing number of vaccinated will feel mislead and lied to (whether justified or not). The only recovery path I can see is the return of a strong level of informed consent between patient and provider, and big tech getting out of the healthcare game.

mauvehaus 5y ago
A good first step might be making sure the population is educated sufficiently to identify and weigh the risks between a 1 in 1,000,000 side effect, the disease the vaccine protects against, and the pure bullshit peddled by fear mongers. Right now, we have people in the US who still believe that Covid is no worse than a bad case of the flu. All the evidence (at least for the pre Omicron variants) suggests that the reality, as viewed by death rate, is orders of magnitude more bleak.
- core-utility 5y ago
  I'm just an anecdote, but I've had COVID. It was less than a bad case of the flu. To pretend that it affects everyone equally and that they're all the worst thing ever is malpractice. Risk communication should always have been striated by age/comorbidity and let people make decisions from there.
  - joshuahughes 5y ago
    I'm a very similar anecdote. Yes, covid sucked, but it was a mild 48hr illness in my experience. (And in the experience of dozens of my friends.) It's quite incredible that the GP can complain on the one hand about "the pure bullshit peddled by fear mongers" and then — without apparently recognising the irony — goes on to peddle fear themselves.
    - PickledHotdog 5y ago
      Congrats to you and your friends. Unfortunately that's not the case for hundreds of thousands of your compatriots and millions of your fellow humans. Conflating fear mongering around vaccines with very few cases of serious side effects (none of which are contagious) with "fear mongering" around the virus itself which has caused literally millions of deaths and untold post-infection issues for millions more is what's really quite incredible.
      - native_samples 5y ago
        You don't actually know how common vaccine side effects are, because standard practice is to assume anything that happens >7 days after a vaccine isn't caused by it. This was the standard used in the trials for example. But from the paper: "the mean time to onset of symptoms [for VITT] after vaccination is 8 days ... The mean time to onset of symptoms after vaccination [for auto immune hepatitis] is 13 days, ranging from 4 to 26 days" etc. The trials had many other problems like smartphone apps for reporting side-effects that had a fixed list of 'expected' side effects, without any free-form input field to enter new ones. It's clear when you look into the details here that nearly the entire medical system is strongly biased against any findings of side effects and sets things up carefully to let them make such claims, regardless of common sense or what you might expect ethically.
        PickledHotdog 5y ago
        Surely we can deduce whether there are meaningful numbers of serious side effects by looking at past years in population data - especially in populations that have high vaccination rates. If rates have increased markedly, then there's obviously something to investigate. But as noted elsewhere, the rates seem to be 'in line' with pre-vaccine rates for a fair few side effects in a given population. They just get more press now because of the focus on health issues in the media and the hysteria around "vaccine injuries" You'll get no argument from me that reporting standards leave a bit to be desired. The trials are the trials - they could be improved, sure - but side effect reporting didn't end with trials. Plenty of governments kept tabs on side effects post vaccine once they were being widely administered
- dev360 5y ago
  > All the evidence (at least for the pre Omicron variants) suggests that the reality, as viewed by death rate, is orders of magnitude more bleak. Dr. Rochelle Walensky, Director of CDC was actually in an interview recently where she said 75% of Covid deaths occurred in people with 4 co-morbidities. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pa7N-iNkaUE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pa7N-iNkaUE This statement begs the question of what percentile of deaths occurred with no co-morbidities at all. In my mind at least, I don't know enough about the death rate to inform if its bleak or not judging as a healthy 41 year old without complicating medical factors.
  - manwe150 5y ago
    I was looking at the CDC data for that claim, it looks to me like many of those "co-morbidities" referenced appear to be sepsis, respiratory failure, heart failure, and co-infections: https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid_weekly/index.htm?fbclid=IwAR3-wrg3tTKK5-9tOHPGAHWFVO3DfslkJ0KsDEPQpWmPbKtp6EsoVV2Qs1Q https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid_weekly/index.htm?fb... Most of those sound like they would have been caused by COVID. So, were they probably a fairly normal 41 year old, until they were in the hospitalized for COVID, developed complications, and died. Or is there more to the model here? Even more confusingly, about half of the US population is obese, but it is only mentioned in a small percentage of death reports (up to about of quarter in the younger populations). Taken naively, this would seem to imply that being obese actually strongly protects from death. But I suspect that it is instead simply not being listed in the causes of death in most cases.
  - manwe150 5y ago
    To answer my own question two weeks later, it turns out that number quoted on GMA was specifically the percentage of vaccinated people (https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/covid-deaths-4-comorbidities/ https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/covid-deaths-4-comorbiditi...). Her statement had no relevance to an unvaccinated person, as the grand-parent's comment was asking about.

walterbell 5y ago

If "information is surprise" (Claude Shannon, 1948, https://plus.maths.org/content/information-surprise https://plus.maths.org/content/information-surprise), we should be celebrating rather than censoring surprising information signals from living human outliers.

TrispusAttucks 5y ago

This saddens me greatly. I'm continually amazed at the arrogant, ignorant, and down right "head in the sand" nature that has swept across the minds of the land. Worse is that "their thoughts are not theirs". They are being taught to hate you because your truth is inconvenient. I wish you the best recovery possible.

elif 5y ago

I relate. After my vaccination I had about 2 months of severe pains in my gut. I only told a few people because I really believe in the power of the vaccine and know people will twist my own words.

giantg2 5y ago
Hopefully you reported to VAERS. People need to report potential events so that the data is present to do statistical analysis on. It's a shame how terrible the data currently is with all the under reporting.
- cromwellian 5y ago
  VAERS is garbage in, garbage out. There is no curation since it is self reported, you may as well mine Reddit comments or Twitter to get the same data.
  - native_samples 5y ago
    There clearly is some curation because reports appear in the database in batches. Reports can be self reported but don't have to be. Regardless, even if everything you say is true, what it means is that governments deliberately run useless post-trial safety monitoring mechanisms. Which is terrifying and terrible. Putting all humanities eggs in one basket, literally.
  - giantg2 5y ago
    Yep, and yet it's the data the government uses for identifying issues...
  - benpiper 5y ago
    This is true of COVID "cases" and deaths as well.
    - cromwellian 5y ago
      Not really. Can have all cause mortality data from every year that tells us excess deaths. If we see a spike of 400k excess deaths for 2020 and 2021, then it’s pretty obvious how many to attribute to the virus. Additionally, if someone is pCR positive, symptom positive, and dies from a cytokine storm, that’s pretty strong evidence. But we don’t even need the latter. Excess deaths tell us approximately how many the virus killed, period, QED. There’s no denying COVID killed 10x more than the worst flu since 1918.

MaKey 5y ago

I hope your situation will improve eventually. Are you at least getting compensated?

giantg2 5y ago
Someone else, but my guess would be no. It's not too difficult to get compensated if your injury is on the list of known injuries. This being a new vaccine, there is not a lot of history to have produced a robust list. If it's not on the list, you have to prove that it was more likely than not caused by the vaccine. You have to provide the theory for the underlying mechanism that caused it. So if it's really rare, you're screwed because there likely hasn't been much if any research on it. Then it will take a minimum of 3 years to into a courtroom because the government has left the vaccine courts severely understaffed. Dealing with something similar in my family. I believe it's an autoimmune autonomic dysfunction issue brought on by multiple simultaneously administered vaccines. This presented a few days after vaccination and the doctors didn't even report it to VAERS! They had no explanation of the cause yet didn't care to report it as a possible event simply because it's not required by law or "I'm not the primary care physician".

giantg2 5y ago

Good luck with any compensation. I hear it's even harder to get compensated through the countermeasure program than the regular vaccine program.

mizzack 5y ago
Yep, a lot of people are unaware that this is covered by a separate, wildly different program. The coverages are outlined here: https://www.hrsa.gov/cicp/cicp-vicp https://www.hrsa.gov/cicp/cicp-vicp CICP only covers severe physical injury or death, has a 1 year filing limit, only covers related reimbursement (not pain and suffering), and is eligibility is an administrative decision (not a judicial one).

benpiper 5y ago

I'm sorry to hear that. We need your voice. There are people who still haven't gotten "vaccinated" and are under pressure to do so. By speaking up you might be able to save someone else from what you're going through. Please don't let people shut you down. Your personal experience is the gold standard of scientific and clinical evidence. Any pushback you get is irrational and based on fear and ignorance.

credit_guy 5y ago
> By speaking up you might be able to save someone else from what you're going through. Exactly how? By not getting vaccinated? By making sure the risk of side-effects from the vaccine is lower than the risk of getting the disease? How can you weigh these risks? You can say, by doing statistics. You need to be able do estimate conditional expectations, the more granular the conditions, the better. For example you start with the unconditional expectation of having a severe outcome from Covid vs from the vaccine. The vaccine wins hands down. Then you do expectation conditional on age. The FDA and CDC did that when issuing their approval, and making the recommendations for various age groups. For more granular conditions, the CDC maintains the VAERS database [1], where every adverse event linked to a vaccine is tabulated. For example, let's say the CDC analyses this data set and concludes that for people with kidney stones the vaccine's side-effects outweigh the benefits. The CDC will issue the appropriate recommendation. How exactly do you think someone's "voice on the internet" will result in people making better informed decisions, vs people actually listening to the CDC recommendations? [1] https://vaers.hhs.gov/ https://vaers.hhs.gov/