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I find it funny how people seem to fixate so much on the fact that the author upgraded various components to say the title is misleading. As someone with appare

I find it funny how people seem to fixate so much on the fact that the author upgraded various components to say the title is misleading. As someone with apparently similar requirements, the take-away from this should be this: Even though significant work is required to keep these old machines working, some people prefer to do so. Crucially, they prefer it not because they love tinkering, but simply because the value propositions of 2021/2022 hardware doesn't look better. As someone running a non-upgradeable Dell nightmare XPS13 2in1 with a nice display, but horrible everything-else, I can relate. I've been looking at recent models lately and find it pretty bleak.

y4mi 5y ago
There are upgradeable options though. The framework Laptop to name the most hyped current option for example.
- fho 5y ago
  The problem with these projects is that they are all the hype for a while and after the hype dies down you are left with laptop that is only in theory upgradable.
  - Dylan16807 5y ago
    You make it sound like it's a kickstarter.
    - notRobot 5y ago
      I love frame.work as a concept, but it's definitely not a "proven" concept at the moment. The company could very well go under or choose not to support upgrading the laptop.
      - cehrlich 5y ago
        Even assuming Framework shuts down tomorrow and destroys their existing stock of replacement parts and the specs for making new ones, I would argue that you can at the very least assume permanent availability of RAM, SSD, Display (it uses a commodity panel), fan, and battery (there are knockoff batteries for much more obscure laptops). I would assume that keyboards, trackpads, etc. will also be available as some laptops bite the dust and are scavenged for parts. Whether the motherboard/CPU will actually be upgradeable obviously remains to be seen. The 11th Gen CPUs get a lot of flak, but they have good single-core performance which will make them suitable for general use for a long time. It's at least equally upgradeable as the first ThinkPads with soldered on CPUs, which by today's standards is still pretty good - and if framework deliver on their promises, then it will be even better. But either way the baseline isn't bad.
        ihateolives 5y ago
        > I would argue that you can at the very least assume permanent availability of RAM, SSD, Display (it uses a commodity panel), fan, and battery I mean, you can buy a new-ish Thinkpad where you can replace/upgrade all of those things. You get great compatibility and most hw/sw compatibility bugs are already known and have workarounds. Framework has to have some other value propositions as well besides being able to replace things you mentioned.
        cehrlich 5y ago
        As I said, that's the absolute worst-case scenario. I don't own one personally, but reviews have been overwhelmingly positive so presumably it does have something to offer beyond replaceability. (disclaimer: some people on HN seem to have had some driver issues on Linux on theirs)
        goodpoint 5y ago
        > you can at the very least assume permanent availability of RAM, SSD, Display Quite the opposite. That would only apply to a very popular laptop like some thinkpads.
        5y ago
    - Ensorceled 5y ago
      It may not be a kickstarter but it is definitely a startup in a tough space, being skeptical of its long term success is pretty reasonable.
      - j45 5y ago
        Try one out before you start with that conclusion
        Cthulhu_ 5y ago
        That's the thing, their USP is long-term maintainability and upgradeability, but if they call it quits in a year, you're stuck with a niche product that nobody else is willing to make parts for.
        easton 5y ago
        To be fair, once you hit 5 years (or if you’re unlucky 3 years) it becomes just about impossible to get OEM parts from Dell or Lenovo and you have to resort to cannibalizing broken ones off eBay or your parts bin if you’re in enterprise. So either way you could end up in the same boat, except if framework comes up with a gen 2 it’s possible with enough consumer pressure they’ll make the parts cross compatible.
        j45 5y ago
        A bit part of the Frameworks USP isn’t understandable by many laptop users who haven’t repaired or upgraded their own laptops in the past. They will just buy, while a repairable laptop could create beginners who can learn to maintain well designed equipment. It might not give the iPhone 23 feels.
        my_usernam3 5y ago
        > you have to resort to cannibalizing broken ones off eBay or your parts bin if you’re in enterprise Except these graveyards are ENDLESS because of the amount they produced and companies threw away. My favorite is all the originally $150 docking stations that you can pick up for under $20 (or at least when I was in the lenovo t series game).
  - JKCalhoun 5y ago
    Why not instead someone just market a replacement keyboard for one of the more popular laptops? It sounds as though modern keyboards are the primary pain point for newer laptops. (Or if a 3rd party had marketed an inexpensive replacement power-brick for the author's 2001 Apple iBook perhaps he would still be using it.)
    - goodpoint 5y ago
      Patents, followed by a small battalion of lawyers.
- brightball 5y ago
  I’m watching them closely for my next machine in a year or 2.
- black_puppydog 5y ago
  I love the idea of framework! But I also live in France and I can't get myself to do another preorder adventure right now. When they start actually shipping I might go for that, although frankly I still might wait for a Ryzen model.
duckmysick 5y ago
It's a classic case of the Ship of Theseus. https://open.library.okstate.edu/introphilosophy/chapter/ship-of-theseus/ https://open.library.okstate.edu/introphilosophy/chapter/shi...
- lproven 5y ago
  No, it isn't. The entire point of the "my grandfather's axe" or "my grandmother's broom" story -- of which Theseus' ship is the original -- is that there's nothing of the original left, but replacement was gradual so there's a feeling of continuity. Whereas this is the original laptop with some upgrades. Same chassis, same motherboard, same screen, same (IMHO, bad) keyboard, but more RAM, more & faster disks, and a new CPU. This is not Theseus' ship, where nothing was left. The point of this story is that an end-user with normal tools can, at home, repair and upgrade a decade-old Thinkpad, but you can't do that with the new ones. The subtext is that in fact CPU performance isn't increasing much any more, and hasn't in a decade and a half. GPU performance is a bit but most of us don't need it, same as most of us don't need lots of CPU cores in a laptop. SSD performance is improving, somewhat, yes. Size, a lot. New laptops aren't that much faster than old laptops. Unless you're very demanding, old ones are good enough. So laptop makers, who need people to keep buying new laptops or they'll go out of business, are making laptops that you can't fix or upgrade any more.
  - ricardobayes 5y ago
    Car industry is going in the direction of manufacturer rebuild (remanufacture), so laptop industry should do the same. Instead of making unupgradeable garbage, manufacturers should offer upgrades.
    - lproven 5y ago
      I am not sure of what you're saying, perhaps partly because I don't own a car, and never have since I got my driver's licence at age 38 or so. I do recall a neighbour of mine saying "back when cars went rusty" to me a decade back, which surprised me. A lot. Apparently they don't now? But modern cars, and many modern motorbikes, are sealed units which are not maintainable by the end-user. I dislike electronics like that. For this reason, for years now, I have favoured very cheap smartphones. If I must have a sealed brick that I can't fix or upgrade, then I will have the cheapest one I can get that does what I need. Luckily, there are very decent £/€ 125 smartphones now, from companies such as PPTV, iRulu and Umidigi, which are entirely usable and which I can replace every couple of years without pain. For laptops, I just use decade+ old Thinkpads for now. They're fast enough for me and the keyboards are better than any modern thing.
forinti 5y ago
I've done something similar with my machines, because it was so much cheaper than getting something new. You can get a quad core CPU for about $10, 16GB of DDR3 for about $100 and an SSD for $50. Even if you add a better heatsink and GPU, it's still cheaper than the cheapest machine you can get new (and they come with 4GB, which isn't enough nowadays).
numpad0 5y ago
Those upgrades are "period correct" parts though. The part about value propositions are right but it's not that he installed modern components like latest 12th-Gen CPU or NVMe SSD.
Shakahs 5y ago
The upgrades aren’t even substantial. The CPU, RAM, and fan are all original parts. You could’ve ordered this exact configuration from Lenovo. The only deviation from stock is the AC WiFi upgrade. I daily drive a T530, it was max spec already so I haven’t changed anything. It has more than enough power to do software dev.
- sundvor 5y ago
  I see you also follow my rule: When buying a laptop, always buy top spec. My laptop is an OG X1 Carbon i7/8/256. I can't upgrade it easily, but I'm actually happy with it for my purposes. My main driver is a Ryzen desktop though, that's a proper beast.
  - kfajdsl 5y ago
    I have that exact laptop, abd my only gripe is battery life. How's that holding up for you?
    - sundvor 5y ago
      That's awesome! My battery life is not good at all. I had it replaced after 3 years - bought it ahead as part of "warranty", but it's likely due for another replacement now. Other than that it's only recently started to show some scuff marks on the corners. Everything else is still holding up great, especially the keyboard.
  - kryogen1c 5y ago
    > I see you also follow my rule: When buying a laptop, always buy top spec. ive become a believer for both desktops and laptops. the ratio of hardware performance to software performance requirements increases over time, but its linear and the slope is small. knowing that, you can buy cheap machines frequently or expensive machines infrequently and hit a similar $/time expenditure - but one way you get fast puterz and the other way you dont. the details matter of course. $/performance hits a sharp breakpoint and turns exponential around the 80th percentile. for my money - and everyone i know uninterested in the bleeding edge - a couple notches below the best is an incomparable deal that also saves the time of frequent research/upgrades/purchasing.
znpy 5y ago
> the value propositions of 2021/2022 hardware doesn't look better I'm glad you managed to distill my feelings so clearly. Most new things are just gimmicks, it's pretty rare that good innovations come into the laptop area. Think of stuff like non-16:9 displays: older thinkpads had beautiful displays that were amazing for doing actual work. Now we're seeing 16:10 displays coming back, and it's awesome. The ThinkPad T42 I had in high school had a 14" 1400x1050 display and writing documents was very comfortable. Then a dark age came, and all laptops had 16:9 displays... Editing a document in Word/Writer was a pain in the ass. Between the title bar, the windows icon bar (start menu and iconized applications) and the various office toolbars (and the f-ing ribbon toolbar) you could barely see the text you're writing. It was really moronic.
- vetinari 5y ago
  Getting off-topic, but you know that ribbon bar is collapsible, right? Also Windows up until 10 supported slim task bar, 11 unfortunately doesn't, probably as a compensation for the better displays available :(.
  - znpy 5y ago
    > Getting off-topic, but you know that ribbon bar is collapsible, right? Yes but it was really meant as an example. Take for example another program like a web browser: between the title bar, the menu bar, the tab bar and the bookmark bar and you're losing a lot of vertical screen real estate. Yeah the bookmark bar is collapsible and nowadays firefox and other browsers hide the menu bar, but those are useful features (particularly the bookmark bar) and I just want them around. The problem is not that I should be hiding useful stuff like the ribbon bar or the bookmarks bar, the problem is that 16:9 displays are moronic and should not have been pushed onto everybody forcefully. They might be okay for content-consumption-oriented laptops, but they're awful for real-work-oriented laptops (readl work raning from editing a spreadsheet, editing a document in word and even editing code of course). -- No wonder that high-end external display vendors like Dell/HP (and others) kept selling 16:10 external displays for professional use.
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
samstave 5y ago
HP Omen 15" is your friend. Ryzen and GTX 3070 - all SSD
paulcole 5y ago
> Crucially, they prefer it not because they love tinkering, I’m not sure what part of this article gave you this idea? It’s clear to me the author is gravitating towards a solution that allows him to tinker to his heart’s content. I mean did you not see the pile of wires connected to the eGPU — on a laptop?
jart 5y ago
I've been using my Thinkpad T420 since 2011 just fine and I haven't needed to do anything to it.
- chj 5y ago
  How's the display going?
  - wildzzz 5y ago
    If they had the foresight to spend the money on the bigger display, they are probably just fine. It's not Rentina quality but it's good enough for something to use at home for non-work.
    - jart 5y ago
      Yes Thinkpads are very inexpensive so it makes perfect sense to max out. At least it did back then. I don't know about now.
NikolaNovak 5y ago
I run two Thinkpad T420s and one T420 at home, for myself and family. The T420s in particular are as small as I need a laptop to be (T420, no 's', is a bit bulky and old school); and yet they are fully modular - you can swap out battery, or Ultrabay (DVD to HDD to extra battery) with a quick pull of lever; it takes one well-marked screw to access primary hard drive or RAM. They're reliable, sturdy, good looking in a timeless way; AND, they don't try to re-invent the keyboard. This is a massive, massive reason I stick with the *20 series of Thinkpads - all modern laptops feel the need to reinvent the layout, which means I can NEVER use my muscle memory to do Ctrl-Home, Ctrl-End, PgUp, PgDwn, which I use constantly. They get relegated to some tiny buttons in non-sensical random places that differ between manufacturers and models. I had to use HpElitebook and Dell something or the other for work, which were fine laptops in their own way, but try to emulate Apple in size and format, and the keyboards were maddeningly awful in their layout. Less of a Rant, more to the point - the T420s is perfectly usable today without any crazy "mods" - a $40 SSD which literally slots in is pretty much the only thing it needs. We do browsing, movies, light photo browsing/editing, email, MS Office, Schoolwork, etc all on them a full decade after their release :)
- StuffMaster 5y ago
  Fellow T420s lover here. Yay us!
perth 5y ago
Pro Tip: get Dells business models like the latitude series The business Dell laptops blow anything lenovo has ever made out of the water in terms of specs, build quality, and serviceability. Also Dell’s bios is way better and easier to do stuff in. I’ve had a t420 and I thought it was crap compared to the Dell business laptops. The cooling, plastic casing material, and serviceability just isn’t there. On the T420 my palm rest cracked and to replace it you pretty much had to fully take apart the laptop to get it off. ifixit rated that particular repair at a pretty high difficulty, so instead I took the reusable components out, binned it, and used a Dell latitude. Currently I don't own a Dell business laptop however. Right now I'm using an Intel NUC Laptop and it does pretty good.
- bluedino 5y ago
  They are still a level much lower than Lenovo.
  - csdvrx 5y ago
    Agreed. Their BIOS is full of bugs. I've investigated a few on the 7275 (business grade): I believe it's technically impossible for it to really sleep on Windows, regardless of how you look at it. It just saves a little bit of power while it looks like it's sleeping, then Windows realize it's an unacceptable power draw and pulls the plug (power off) then transparently resumes from a S4 hibernate to disk. Check my previous post https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29762909 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29762909
- chucksmash 5y ago
  This has been the move for me. I have a Carbon X1 running Windows through work and Latitude running Linux at home. It's not fair to compare the two because they are different weight classes and running different OSes, but the X1 battery life and performance have really put me off the smaller form factor. It's puny and it regularly gets ~2 hours off a charge versus 4-8x that on the Dell, all just to save a kilo.
- kitsunesoba 5y ago
  I haven’t worked with anything newer, but the late 2000s Dell Precision laptops are a true pleasure to work on — a great deal more pleasant than any Thinkpad I’ve cracked open. With just four screws I’m inside of my old M4400 and can pop off its heat sink, change thermal paste, swap CPUs, change wifi/Bluetooth/cell cards, etc.
interfixus 5y ago
My T440p started life in 2013 as a work PC in an engineering firm. Was then retired and sold for scraps to an employee, a friend of mine who later passed it on to me. I splashed out and bought a brand new, higher res display on eBay, less than USD 100 and the quality keeps blowing me backwards. Plus 8GB more RAM for a total of 12, and a new 1TB Samsung SSD, and soon perhaps a battery replacement. And they can damned well pry the thing from my cold, dead hands. It's just a superbly well designed and satisfying piece of machinery to handle. Meanwhile, a much newer Lenovo is sitting largely unused except for the occasional batch job and some audio processing.
jeffbee 5y ago
I personally find the value prop of my 2020 and 2021 model laptops, and my 2022 model desktop, to be rather good. 2020: Razer Book 13: 4 core, 8 threads, AVX-512, Thunderbolt 4. Weird gaming company, yes, but also competent thermal design and the machine works perfectly. This CPU when cooled properly is going to be at least 200% faster than that old Sandy Bridge CPU in the article, and that CPU has a much higher TDP so cooling an 11th gen properly is a piece of cake comparatively. 2021: MacBook Pro 14, M1 Pro CPU. The CPU that scared the pants off Intel. Say no more. 2022: 12th gen Intel Core. The empire strikes back. More than doubles the single-threaded performance of 11th gen Core in many cases. And these machines are cheaper than ever. Competition works.
bstpierre 5y ago
My 2012 Dell XPS14 is still my preferred laptop even without any upgrades or tinkering. I have a somehwat newer XPS13 for work that is also decent (but not as good as the '12), and according to the calendar I'm due for a refresh but like you when I look at what's available I don't see any reason to go through the hassle of an upgrade, never mind the cost.
- black_puppydog 5y ago
  I had the 2012 XPS, it was great! That's what got me back to XPS two years ago, which... turned out to be a nightmare. And apparently they are doubling down on this: https://www.cnet.com/tech/computing/dell-xps-13-plus-buzzy-controversial-new-touch-bar-we-tried-it-ces-2022/ https://www.cnet.com/tech/computing/dell-xps-13-plus-buzzy-c...
maupin 5y ago
I've been using a Dell XPS13 (not 2 in 1, but top of the line everything else) for dev work for a year now and I love it. It's small, light, and runs my virtual environment handily.

y4mi 5y ago

There are upgradeable options though. The framework Laptop to name the most hyped current option for example.

fho 5y ago
The problem with these projects is that they are all the hype for a while and after the hype dies down you are left with laptop that is only in theory upgradable.
- Dylan16807 5y ago
  You make it sound like it's a kickstarter.
  - notRobot 5y ago
    I love frame.work as a concept, but it's definitely not a "proven" concept at the moment. The company could very well go under or choose not to support upgrading the laptop.
    - cehrlich 5y ago
      Even assuming Framework shuts down tomorrow and destroys their existing stock of replacement parts and the specs for making new ones, I would argue that you can at the very least assume permanent availability of RAM, SSD, Display (it uses a commodity panel), fan, and battery (there are knockoff batteries for much more obscure laptops). I would assume that keyboards, trackpads, etc. will also be available as some laptops bite the dust and are scavenged for parts. Whether the motherboard/CPU will actually be upgradeable obviously remains to be seen. The 11th Gen CPUs get a lot of flak, but they have good single-core performance which will make them suitable for general use for a long time. It's at least equally upgradeable as the first ThinkPads with soldered on CPUs, which by today's standards is still pretty good - and if framework deliver on their promises, then it will be even better. But either way the baseline isn't bad.
      - ihateolives 5y ago
        > I would argue that you can at the very least assume permanent availability of RAM, SSD, Display (it uses a commodity panel), fan, and battery I mean, you can buy a new-ish Thinkpad where you can replace/upgrade all of those things. You get great compatibility and most hw/sw compatibility bugs are already known and have workarounds. Framework has to have some other value propositions as well besides being able to replace things you mentioned.
        cehrlich 5y ago
        As I said, that's the absolute worst-case scenario. I don't own one personally, but reviews have been overwhelmingly positive so presumably it does have something to offer beyond replaceability. (disclaimer: some people on HN seem to have had some driver issues on Linux on theirs)
      - goodpoint 5y ago
        > you can at the very least assume permanent availability of RAM, SSD, Display Quite the opposite. That would only apply to a very popular laptop like some thinkpads.
        5y ago
  - Ensorceled 5y ago
    It may not be a kickstarter but it is definitely a startup in a tough space, being skeptical of its long term success is pretty reasonable.
    - j45 5y ago
      Try one out before you start with that conclusion
      - Cthulhu_ 5y ago
        That's the thing, their USP is long-term maintainability and upgradeability, but if they call it quits in a year, you're stuck with a niche product that nobody else is willing to make parts for.
        easton 5y ago
        To be fair, once you hit 5 years (or if you’re unlucky 3 years) it becomes just about impossible to get OEM parts from Dell or Lenovo and you have to resort to cannibalizing broken ones off eBay or your parts bin if you’re in enterprise. So either way you could end up in the same boat, except if framework comes up with a gen 2 it’s possible with enough consumer pressure they’ll make the parts cross compatible.
        j45 5y ago
        A bit part of the Frameworks USP isn’t understandable by many laptop users who haven’t repaired or upgraded their own laptops in the past. They will just buy, while a repairable laptop could create beginners who can learn to maintain well designed equipment. It might not give the iPhone 23 feels.
        my_usernam3 5y ago
        > you have to resort to cannibalizing broken ones off eBay or your parts bin if you’re in enterprise Except these graveyards are ENDLESS because of the amount they produced and companies threw away. My favorite is all the originally $150 docking stations that you can pick up for under $20 (or at least when I was in the lenovo t series game).
- JKCalhoun 5y ago
  Why not instead someone just market a replacement keyboard for one of the more popular laptops? It sounds as though modern keyboards are the primary pain point for newer laptops. (Or if a 3rd party had marketed an inexpensive replacement power-brick for the author's 2001 Apple iBook perhaps he would still be using it.)
  - goodpoint 5y ago
    Patents, followed by a small battalion of lawyers.
brightball 5y ago
I’m watching them closely for my next machine in a year or 2.
black_puppydog 5y ago
I love the idea of framework! But I also live in France and I can't get myself to do another preorder adventure right now. When they start actually shipping I might go for that, although frankly I still might wait for a Ryzen model.

duckmysick 5y ago

It's a classic case of the Ship of Theseus. https://open.library.okstate.edu/introphilosophy/chapter/ship-of-theseus/ https://open.library.okstate.edu/introphilosophy/chapter/shi...

lproven 5y ago
No, it isn't. The entire point of the "my grandfather's axe" or "my grandmother's broom" story -- of which Theseus' ship is the original -- is that there's nothing of the original left, but replacement was gradual so there's a feeling of continuity. Whereas this is the original laptop with some upgrades. Same chassis, same motherboard, same screen, same (IMHO, bad) keyboard, but more RAM, more & faster disks, and a new CPU. This is not Theseus' ship, where nothing was left. The point of this story is that an end-user with normal tools can, at home, repair and upgrade a decade-old Thinkpad, but you can't do that with the new ones. The subtext is that in fact CPU performance isn't increasing much any more, and hasn't in a decade and a half. GPU performance is a bit but most of us don't need it, same as most of us don't need lots of CPU cores in a laptop. SSD performance is improving, somewhat, yes. Size, a lot. New laptops aren't that much faster than old laptops. Unless you're very demanding, old ones are good enough. So laptop makers, who need people to keep buying new laptops or they'll go out of business, are making laptops that you can't fix or upgrade any more.
- ricardobayes 5y ago
  Car industry is going in the direction of manufacturer rebuild (remanufacture), so laptop industry should do the same. Instead of making unupgradeable garbage, manufacturers should offer upgrades.
  - lproven 5y ago
    I am not sure of what you're saying, perhaps partly because I don't own a car, and never have since I got my driver's licence at age 38 or so. I do recall a neighbour of mine saying "back when cars went rusty" to me a decade back, which surprised me. A lot. Apparently they don't now? But modern cars, and many modern motorbikes, are sealed units which are not maintainable by the end-user. I dislike electronics like that. For this reason, for years now, I have favoured very cheap smartphones. If I must have a sealed brick that I can't fix or upgrade, then I will have the cheapest one I can get that does what I need. Luckily, there are very decent £/€ 125 smartphones now, from companies such as PPTV, iRulu and Umidigi, which are entirely usable and which I can replace every couple of years without pain. For laptops, I just use decade+ old Thinkpads for now. They're fast enough for me and the keyboards are better than any modern thing.

forinti 5y ago

I've done something similar with my machines, because it was so much cheaper than getting something new. You can get a quad core CPU for about $10, 16GB of DDR3 for about $100 and an SSD for $50. Even if you add a better heatsink and GPU, it's still cheaper than the cheapest machine you can get new (and they come with 4GB, which isn't enough nowadays).

numpad0 5y ago

Those upgrades are "period correct" parts though. The part about value propositions are right but it's not that he installed modern components like latest 12th-Gen CPU or NVMe SSD.

Shakahs 5y ago

The upgrades aren’t even substantial. The CPU, RAM, and fan are all original parts. You could’ve ordered this exact configuration from Lenovo. The only deviation from stock is the AC WiFi upgrade. I daily drive a T530, it was max spec already so I haven’t changed anything. It has more than enough power to do software dev.

sundvor 5y ago
I see you also follow my rule: When buying a laptop, always buy top spec. My laptop is an OG X1 Carbon i7/8/256. I can't upgrade it easily, but I'm actually happy with it for my purposes. My main driver is a Ryzen desktop though, that's a proper beast.
- kfajdsl 5y ago
  I have that exact laptop, abd my only gripe is battery life. How's that holding up for you?
  - sundvor 5y ago
    That's awesome! My battery life is not good at all. I had it replaced after 3 years - bought it ahead as part of "warranty", but it's likely due for another replacement now. Other than that it's only recently started to show some scuff marks on the corners. Everything else is still holding up great, especially the keyboard.
- kryogen1c 5y ago
  > I see you also follow my rule: When buying a laptop, always buy top spec. ive become a believer for both desktops and laptops. the ratio of hardware performance to software performance requirements increases over time, but its linear and the slope is small. knowing that, you can buy cheap machines frequently or expensive machines infrequently and hit a similar $/time expenditure - but one way you get fast puterz and the other way you dont. the details matter of course. $/performance hits a sharp breakpoint and turns exponential around the 80th percentile. for my money - and everyone i know uninterested in the bleeding edge - a couple notches below the best is an incomparable deal that also saves the time of frequent research/upgrades/purchasing.

znpy 5y ago

> the value propositions of 2021/2022 hardware doesn't look better I'm glad you managed to distill my feelings so clearly. Most new things are just gimmicks, it's pretty rare that good innovations come into the laptop area. Think of stuff like non-16:9 displays: older thinkpads had beautiful displays that were amazing for doing actual work. Now we're seeing 16:10 displays coming back, and it's awesome. The ThinkPad T42 I had in high school had a 14" 1400x1050 display and writing documents was very comfortable. Then a dark age came, and all laptops had 16:9 displays... Editing a document in Word/Writer was a pain in the ass. Between the title bar, the windows icon bar (start menu and iconized applications) and the various office toolbars (and the f-ing ribbon toolbar) you could barely see the text you're writing. It was really moronic.

vetinari 5y ago
Getting off-topic, but you know that ribbon bar is collapsible, right? Also Windows up until 10 supported slim task bar, 11 unfortunately doesn't, probably as a compensation for the better displays available :(.
- znpy 5y ago
  > Getting off-topic, but you know that ribbon bar is collapsible, right? Yes but it was really meant as an example. Take for example another program like a web browser: between the title bar, the menu bar, the tab bar and the bookmark bar and you're losing a lot of vertical screen real estate. Yeah the bookmark bar is collapsible and nowadays firefox and other browsers hide the menu bar, but those are useful features (particularly the bookmark bar) and I just want them around. The problem is not that I should be hiding useful stuff like the ribbon bar or the bookmarks bar, the problem is that 16:9 displays are moronic and should not have been pushed onto everybody forcefully. They might be okay for content-consumption-oriented laptops, but they're awful for real-work-oriented laptops (readl work raning from editing a spreadsheet, editing a document in word and even editing code of course). -- No wonder that high-end external display vendors like Dell/HP (and others) kept selling 16:10 external displays for professional use.
AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago

samstave 5y ago

HP Omen 15" is your friend. Ryzen and GTX 3070 - all SSD

paulcole 5y ago

> Crucially, they prefer it not because they love tinkering, I’m not sure what part of this article gave you this idea? It’s clear to me the author is gravitating towards a solution that allows him to tinker to his heart’s content. I mean did you not see the pile of wires connected to the eGPU — on a laptop?

jart 5y ago

I've been using my Thinkpad T420 since 2011 just fine and I haven't needed to do anything to it.

chj 5y ago
How's the display going?
- wildzzz 5y ago
  If they had the foresight to spend the money on the bigger display, they are probably just fine. It's not Rentina quality but it's good enough for something to use at home for non-work.
  - jart 5y ago
    Yes Thinkpads are very inexpensive so it makes perfect sense to max out. At least it did back then. I don't know about now.

NikolaNovak 5y ago

I run two Thinkpad T420s and one T420 at home, for myself and family. The T420s in particular are as small as I need a laptop to be (T420, no 's', is a bit bulky and old school); and yet they are fully modular - you can swap out battery, or Ultrabay (DVD to HDD to extra battery) with a quick pull of lever; it takes one well-marked screw to access primary hard drive or RAM. They're reliable, sturdy, good looking in a timeless way; AND, they don't try to re-invent the keyboard. This is a massive, massive reason I stick with the *20 series of Thinkpads - all modern laptops feel the need to reinvent the layout, which means I can NEVER use my muscle memory to do Ctrl-Home, Ctrl-End, PgUp, PgDwn, which I use constantly. They get relegated to some tiny buttons in non-sensical random places that differ between manufacturers and models. I had to use HpElitebook and Dell something or the other for work, which were fine laptops in their own way, but try to emulate Apple in size and format, and the keyboards were maddeningly awful in their layout. Less of a Rant, more to the point - the T420s is perfectly usable today without any crazy "mods" - a $40 SSD which literally slots in is pretty much the only thing it needs. We do browsing, movies, light photo browsing/editing, email, MS Office, Schoolwork, etc all on them a full decade after their release :)

StuffMaster 5y ago
Fellow T420s lover here. Yay us!

perth 5y ago

Pro Tip: get Dells business models like the latitude series The business Dell laptops blow anything lenovo has ever made out of the water in terms of specs, build quality, and serviceability. Also Dell’s bios is way better and easier to do stuff in. I’ve had a t420 and I thought it was crap compared to the Dell business laptops. The cooling, plastic casing material, and serviceability just isn’t there. On the T420 my palm rest cracked and to replace it you pretty much had to fully take apart the laptop to get it off. ifixit rated that particular repair at a pretty high difficulty, so instead I took the reusable components out, binned it, and used a Dell latitude. Currently I don't own a Dell business laptop however. Right now I'm using an Intel NUC Laptop and it does pretty good.

bluedino 5y ago
They are still a level much lower than Lenovo.
- csdvrx 5y ago
  Agreed. Their BIOS is full of bugs. I've investigated a few on the 7275 (business grade): I believe it's technically impossible for it to really sleep on Windows, regardless of how you look at it. It just saves a little bit of power while it looks like it's sleeping, then Windows realize it's an unacceptable power draw and pulls the plug (power off) then transparently resumes from a S4 hibernate to disk. Check my previous post https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29762909 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29762909
chucksmash 5y ago
This has been the move for me. I have a Carbon X1 running Windows through work and Latitude running Linux at home. It's not fair to compare the two because they are different weight classes and running different OSes, but the X1 battery life and performance have really put me off the smaller form factor. It's puny and it regularly gets ~2 hours off a charge versus 4-8x that on the Dell, all just to save a kilo.
kitsunesoba 5y ago
I haven’t worked with anything newer, but the late 2000s Dell Precision laptops are a true pleasure to work on — a great deal more pleasant than any Thinkpad I’ve cracked open. With just four screws I’m inside of my old M4400 and can pop off its heat sink, change thermal paste, swap CPUs, change wifi/Bluetooth/cell cards, etc.

interfixus 5y ago

My T440p started life in 2013 as a work PC in an engineering firm. Was then retired and sold for scraps to an employee, a friend of mine who later passed it on to me. I splashed out and bought a brand new, higher res display on eBay, less than USD 100 and the quality keeps blowing me backwards. Plus 8GB more RAM for a total of 12, and a new 1TB Samsung SSD, and soon perhaps a battery replacement. And they can damned well pry the thing from my cold, dead hands. It's just a superbly well designed and satisfying piece of machinery to handle. Meanwhile, a much newer Lenovo is sitting largely unused except for the occasional batch job and some audio processing.

jeffbee 5y ago

I personally find the value prop of my 2020 and 2021 model laptops, and my 2022 model desktop, to be rather good. 2020: Razer Book 13: 4 core, 8 threads, AVX-512, Thunderbolt 4. Weird gaming company, yes, but also competent thermal design and the machine works perfectly. This CPU when cooled properly is going to be at least 200% faster than that old Sandy Bridge CPU in the article, and that CPU has a much higher TDP so cooling an 11th gen properly is a piece of cake comparatively. 2021: MacBook Pro 14, M1 Pro CPU. The CPU that scared the pants off Intel. Say no more. 2022: 12th gen Intel Core. The empire strikes back. More than doubles the single-threaded performance of 11th gen Core in many cases. And these machines are cheaper than ever. Competition works.

bstpierre 5y ago

My 2012 Dell XPS14 is still my preferred laptop even without any upgrades or tinkering. I have a somehwat newer XPS13 for work that is also decent (but not as good as the '12), and according to the calendar I'm due for a refresh but like you when I look at what's available I don't see any reason to go through the hassle of an upgrade, never mind the cost.

black_puppydog 5y ago
I had the 2012 XPS, it was great! That's what got me back to XPS two years ago, which... turned out to be a nightmare. And apparently they are doubling down on this: https://www.cnet.com/tech/computing/dell-xps-13-plus-buzzy-controversial-new-touch-bar-we-tried-it-ces-2022/ https://www.cnet.com/tech/computing/dell-xps-13-plus-buzzy-c...

maupin 5y ago

I've been using a Dell XPS13 (not 2 in 1, but top of the line everything else) for dev work for a year now and I love it. It's small, light, and runs my virtual environment handily.