16 ms·

Completing a part-time Master's in computer science while working

197 points by otras 5y ago

commandlinefan 5y ago
Did that too while working full time and raising two kids, thesis and all. Glad I did it, gladder I’m done.
- daxfohl 5y ago
  For some reason I thought I had clicked on the comments section for the "two sleeps" article and saw this and thought "wow".
  - prawn 5y ago
    I would've thought it was the default for many parents; my youngest child is pretty persistent with her polyphasic sleep...
    - vidarh 5y ago
      When my son was younger I got into a habit of going to sleep when he did, and then getting up a few hours later to do a few hours of work on side projects and then back to sleep. It worked quite well. We'd also get into the habit of taking him to soft play centres (for those unaware: think warehouse full of padded climbing structures over multiple floors and a horde of kids running rampant through them; a total nightmare if your kid insists you join in, or quite relaxing when they run off by themselves) during the weekend so he could wear himself out totally and then go home and have a couple of hours nap when he did. Until that horrible day when we got home from the soft play and he didn't go down for a nap... I can still remember the disappointment (we ended up still taking naps, but having to take turns)
- rootusrootus 5y ago
  Getting my master's while working full time and raising two young kids is probably not the brightest choice I've ever made, but I feel similarly. Glad I did it, even more glad that I'm finished. Nice to have my life back...
- angarg12 5y ago
  I also completed my master's while working full time way back then (+10 years ago). I wouldn't say it was the happiest or most relaxed time of my life, but I'm glad it was over in a year. BTW in restrospect doing a master's degree wasn't such a good choice anyway.
  - commandlinefan 5y ago
    > doing a master's degree wasn't such a good choice Curious why you feel that way? I did mine because my employer paid for 100% of it - I don't think it would have been worth it if I'd had to pay for it myself, but otherwise I got a lot out of it.
pineapple-pizza 5y ago
Did the same but with full-time Bachelor's degree and full-time working. Took me 4 years but was definitely worth it and glad I'm finished.
greenpizza13 5y ago
Did this, too. Part-time Master’s while working full-time. Took two very difficult years including summers.
somewhat_drunk 5y ago
I'm doing this now, but with OMSCS. One class at a time is all I can manage. The program is rigorous.
- notreallyserio 5y ago
  I've been thinking about doing this, too. Would you say it is interesting and a lot of work or just a lot of work?
  - flinginggoat 5y ago
    Not the person you asked, but I’m starting my 6th/7th courses in the OMSCS program this semester. It can definitely be interesting, but like any program, it depends on the course and professor. I’ve had some great courses (like the intro AI course I took last Fall) and I’ve had a terrible course (decent relational database course, but the only TA who responded to questions was absolutely terrible to students). I enrolled in the program because I don’t have an undergrad in CS. I wanted to strengthen my credentials and, more importantly, my foundations. So far, I’d say the program has definitely helped with that. It is also a lot of work, but one course a semester isn’t going to preclude you from having a life. Two will keep you seriously busy though.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
  - rootusrootus 5y ago
    It is very much dependent on what you want from it. You can take an easy curriculum and maybe the hardest class will be graduate algorithms. And that class sounds more daunting than it is. But if you are up for it, there are some great classes with great professors who will really make you earn it.
  - scubakid 5y ago
    I just finished OMSCS last year. Did one course at a time, no breaks, found the workload for most courses to be quite manageable; i.e. if you're already a good dev and have decent writing skills, you'll probably only have to touch grad school stuff a few times a week if you know how to prioritize. For me, most courses were like 40%-60% interesting, the rest feeling like busy work or the typical kinds of overhead you get within any academic framework (I mean that less flippantly than it sounds; personally, it's the highest density of interesting content I've had in an educational setting). The program forced me to explore a few topics I probably wouldn't have otherwise, which is good...but I'm also the type that enjoys building and launching side projects, and I found it hard to do that in any meaningful way while working full time plus OMSCS. So looking back, I can't be sure yet if the piece of paper will have been worth the opportunity cost, but overall I thought it was a good program.
seibelj 5y ago
I did this at Boston University (night school at MET) over 4 years. 10 total classes, they do 3 semesters a year, and I took 2 semesters off. Overall I liked it, solid program, assisted me later when the credential helped validate me to hiring managers and then later to investors. It also forced me to study deeper and become much more serious about the foundational knowledge. The most hilarious part to me was that I did my undergrad at BU and it was ~$200k total over 4 years for a CS degree pre-2010 (BU has since gone parabolic in cost and is now over $75k per year!). My entire masters at night was ~$30k from 2012-2016, and I get the same institutional signal on my resume. Why? Grad students taking night classes have to typically pay out of pocket, and want value for their money. Undergraduates, especially the enormous quantity of non-STEM majors, are not thinking rationally and take out huge debt for an experience.[0][1] This colors my opinion on why the government should not guarantee unlimited undergraduate debt - the cost problem would be solved overnight if students had to actually pay their way. [0] BU has an indoor lazy river that they try very hard to de-emphasize and keep images off the internet of. However it does exist as a "recreation pool" https://legitcampus.wordpress.com/2013/06/01/hey-boston-university-is-this-lazy-river-legit/ https://legitcampus.wordpress.com/2013/06/01/hey-boston-univ... [1] BU is a school full of rich foreigners and trust funders. When I graduated (granted it was shortly after the iPhone was invented) the total number of CS students graduating out of a total class of almost 4000 students was 30! 30 whole CS majors out of 4000! The communications school was something like 1000 students. CS classes were in the basement of the math building, and the ceiling was falling down, pipes were banging, and I'm positive asbestos was rampant. A rich donor has now funded a new enormous CS building, but the capital cost will continue to add onto BU's enormous tuition as it expands ever further into Kenmore and Brookline https://www.bu.edu/articles/2021/update-on-bus-center-for-computing-data-sciences/ https://www.bu.edu/articles/2021/update-on-bus-center-for-co...
- anduru_h 5y ago
  I was under the impression that the masters classes were designed to be a cash cow for institutions!
  - yitianjian 5y ago
    Full time masters especially with international students are definitely cash cows
sdave 5y ago
Completed OMSCS in Fall 2020 - while working in a startup & raising young kid. Was brutal, but worth it! Thanks to Georgia Tech. for creating this program!! Program link: https://omscs.gatech.edu https://omscs.gatech.edu
- tumblewit 5y ago
  OMSCS alumni here. Can’t believe more people don’t know about it!
  - shepherdjerred 5y ago
    Did it feel worthwhile? Did you learn as much as you'd expected to?
    - danrocks 5y ago
      Not the person you asked, but I've done the same. The answer: you have to choose the classes well. If you go with some easy classes for credit, you will be disappointed. If you decide to really do the program, then there are at least 15-20 classes worth taking. Some are really theoretical (ML), others are practical (Big Data for Health, lots of Spark and Scala), and some in between. To be the best class was AI, which deals with classical AI algorithms (minimax, tree search, etc.) - well designed class with some lessons by Peter Norvig. All in all, I know it's not the exact same program taught live (although they say it is), but the classes are available online are good quality, I learned a lot, and at $841 per class, the price is unbeatable. Downsides: I have a job and a kid. The workload for some of these classes is massive, so weekends (at least full Saturday) is gone for the duration of the semester, if you study at night every day - then Sundays are yours. Except for the ML class; that was pretty fucking insane and incidentally, the class where I feel I learned the least so far.
    - sdave 5y ago
      (Not the person u asked :-) ) Short answer = Yes. Learned a lot and some more. (but of course depends on what courses you end up taking). In fact, its quite common to see alumni taking courses after they have graduated (case in point: many folks from my batch enrolled in the newly started DL class, just for the sake of learning).
irrational 5y ago
I’d like to do this, but after the kids are out of the house. I can’t imagine working full time, raising kids, and going to school.
joeframbach 5y ago
I couldn't do it. From 2008 to 2011, I was 3 credits and half a thesis paper short, had to quit for my health. I had lost too much weight, down to 150 lbs at 6'3", I was falling asleep at work and not meeting expectations. It was horrendous. Props to anyone who can make it work. And to those who were bailed out by the Bank of Mom and Dad, a big fuck you.
- rpunkfu 5y ago
  Wouldn't you as a parent want to help your children avoid things you experienced? I think you always want your children to go through less hassle than yourself? I personally believe that guiding children through struggles we experienced is not a good idea of parenting. Disclaimer: I didn't finish college as well, for same reasons as you. Edit: I've realized my comment might've sounded like a critique of your parenting methods or anyone else's. That wasn't my intention, just that I know that it's hard to realize those things sometimes, especially if you're not a parent. I've always seen making life easier for your children as a bad thing, now I see this as the most important thing to do in life. It gets bad when you could move it further, helping people around making their life easier, but you don't - essentially making sure money "stays in family".. Again only my 2c.
  - KingMachiavelli 5y ago
    Agreed, my parents adopted the financial policy of providing just enough support that college was as difficult as possible but technically affordable. In hind sight, just a bit more help would have made a world of difference. That said there is a huge expectation in the US. 90% of the time professors or admins mentioned paying for college they assumed people were getting parental assistance or financial aid. For better or worse paying for your adult child's higher education is not really a parental strategy but rather a societal norm all but written into law.
    - joeframbach 5y ago
      That was very Mitt Romney of you.
  - 5y ago
BeetleB 5y ago
Those costs are amazing. I just compared two state universities I'm familiar with, and the fees are vastly different - but the schools are ranked similarly. These are relatively low ranked. Heck, I just compared to a different top 10 state school, and it is cheaper than one of the no-rank schools. I guess it all comes down to which state you live in.
2457013579 5y ago
For those debating starting a master’s program, the institution makes a big difference about 2 main factors. Required cost (which has been spoken about by multiple people so far), and required effort (which no one has touched on yet, and the reason I’m writing this). While effort isn’t best depicted as a single value, some attributes of effort that I found making the act of getting a MS particularly easier and more enjoyable involves how professors bend to the life of students, rather than students to professors. For homework this looks something like how common and easier it is to get an extension, extra help, adjustment of assignment/test, and so on. For schoolwork this looks something like whether class attendance is required, class sessions and professor office hours are time/location specific, and so on. The original article talks about someone that made the decision to do school in person and then about how there were issues when it became remote. I opted to take an online program offered at a standard institution in hopes of increased flexibility and the same piece of paper at the end. All my classes were pre-recorded lessons I could watch at my convenience. We would complete assignments and talk about them in a comment thread (usually required to do one OP and 2 comments per week), and also have larger projects etc. in groups. On about half of my classes I asked for and was always given extensions of anywhere between 30 days to complete and assignment to 3 extra months to finish 80% of the class I haven’t even touched yet due to increased demand at work. As a side comment I’ll say you miss 100% of the extensions you don’t ask for, so if you ever feel stressed for time give it a shot and ask for an extension before the official due date or even on the day it’s due. Especially in higher education, I’ve never heard of a professor not working with a student. At the end of they day they have a financial incentive to keep you in the program.
- vector_spaces 5y ago
  Absolutely. And don't be ashamed to speak with your disabled students accomodations office about getting the accommodations you need. If you test slowly, request extended time. If depression or something else keeps you from getting stuff done during the week, ask for flexible deadline extensions. People are hesitant to request accommodations they genuinely need and it boggles my mind. It's especially important for math and science STEM fields -- I wouldn't be making any progress on my math degree if I didn't request accommodations and left it up to individual instructors whether to approve or deny my requests for extensions
jcims 5y ago
I dropped out of college in 1993. I’ve been in industry since and empty nesting has me thinking about going back to school. Are there programs that will give me any credit for time served? Not a full degree obviously but maybe fast forward a couple years in the process. I’m thinking a 30 year old transcript with a ~2.0 GPA isn’t going to move the needle much.
- andi999 5y ago
  Do you really want that? You would skip useful knowledge, wouldnt you?
  - vidarh 5y ago
    When I took my MSc. most of the subjects were things I was very familiar with already, and so most of the courses were paint by numbers. There were exceptions that were worthwhile, but it was largely an exercise in documenting my existing knowledge. I couldn't test out of things, and most subject had compulsory exercises, so I spent a lot of time basically proving what I already knew rather than learning new stuff. It was clear to me in advance which courses I could have easily skipped, so from that perspective I would not have skipped useful knowledge. That said, of course the problem is that to give me an actual degree the university needed to know I actually knew those things and verifying that only with tests is hard to get right.
    - andi999 5y ago
      Good point. OP dropped out of college 30 years ago, it might also be good to get into the college-mode with something one is familiar with.
- vector_spaces 5y ago
  My school provides a way to "test out" of a given course by exam. Basically you contact an instructor for the course and make arrangements with them for what the test will look like, and submit some paperwork. The big downside at my school is the fee for this approach is the regular cost of taking the course, paid before you take the test, and nonrefundable in the event you don't pass. But not passing doesn't appear on your transcripts, so it only dings you financially Also, you're only allowed to test out of a handful of requirements for your major. It was explained to me this is so no one can effectively "buy a degree" over only a semester or two. But I've found most instructors willing to let someone in their classes who doesn't have formal prereqs who has relevant work experience I'm in a similar boat in that I'm in my 30s now back in school. when I was 18 I dicked around for a couple semesters and dropped out. Thankfully my old community college has a system for expunging bad grades that are more than 7 years old, and I don't think that's very uncommon
jackdawed 5y ago
I was in the same research lab as the author, but from a different school (BU). When I found out that most of my peers were also doing their master's part time while working, I wished I could do that. But as an international student, there are a lot of restrictions. I had to do it full time (3-4 classes per semester), and I could only work 20 hours part time on campus, usually as a TA and/or research assistant. I did 3 jobs to max that out since most jobs only required you to work 6-8 hours a week. I could only do one internship for my entire degree. My total cost for 2 years was $117,889. BU did not have scholarships or aid for international students, because saying you need aid is admitting that you lied on the visa application. Then I had to pay $7800 to work on my thesis over the summer, which I chose not to finish because I wanted to start working earlier. To make up for lack of work experience, I pretty much did open source contribs 40 hours a week while working on my thesis and TAing. There was a period of 10 weeks where I was putting in 80-100 hours between school and unpaid work. It was still worth it in the end. Similar experience coming from no CS undergrad. There were about 3 good classes that were very valuable, like Algorithms, Cloud Computing, and Embedded Systems. The rest was not that great, especially with remote. When I think about ROI compared to a bootcamp, it's a tough one. Really successful bootcamp grads are already self-selecting going into the bootcamp, same with the really smart students in my master's program. But going to a master's program seems to have a better ROI just based on quality of instruction/institution alone. 6 months after graduation and my pay bump has more than covered it. I was feeding the master's program cash cow, so I think of it as I'm helping fund my US and green card classmates' master's. Most of my peers had 50% or full ride scholarships.
- felipemnoa 5y ago
  >> $117,889 This is just an insane amount of money for a a masters degree. I had no idea it was that expensive. And why did it take you 2 years if it was only a masters? It is only supposed to be 30 credits. I guess spending a year working on just the thesis could explain that.
  - jackdawed 5y ago
    Keep in mind this is for an international student paying out of state tuition with no aid. The 50-60k number is more reasonable for US citizens, <30k if you're coming in with a scholarship. 2 years is the average amount of time for a masters degree. It's typically like 2-3 semesters of classes, then thesis or project. As for credits, my masters segment was 36 credits, while my catch up undergrad segment was 28 credits.
dehrmann 5y ago
> Coming into computer work without a solid CS background meant that there were many gaps in my knowledge. Important note: the author seems to not have a CS background. A solid undergrad CS experience covers a lot of the pluses mentioned.
peter_retief 5y ago
Love the RSS feed link! Not that common anymore.
Borrible 5y ago
Congratulations, well done! Did that a few years ago, started when I was 47, completed with 50. Was easier for me. Distance Learning University in Germany. And I had the opportunity to do it at work. One could call it a side project. Since about two years I try my hand at a bachelor in mathematics at another Distance Learning University in Germany. Guess I will pull that stunt around 2025.
- zd123 5y ago
  Mind sharing the uni name? I am looking at doing something similar
  - Borrible 5y ago
    Sure, have look at my reply above and as a general note perhaps here: https://www.zfh.de/ https://www.zfh.de/ https://www.fernuni-hagen.de/mi/studium/index.shtml https://www.fernuni-hagen.de/mi/studium/index.shtml Sorry, both websites apparently just in German.
    - halfdan 5y ago
      There's https://www.fernuni-hagen.de/english/academics/study-programs/index.shtml https://www.fernuni-hagen.de/english/academics/study-program...
    - Mike_Jordan 5y ago
      Do universities in Germany offer MS only in German language? I am looking for online masters in English.
      - Borrible 5y ago
        I guess most do, but you might have a look here: https://www.mygermanuniversity.com/studyfinder?p=1&pp=25&sort=application_deadline&dir=ASC&dl=1 https://www.mygermanuniversity.com/studyfinder?p=1&pp=25&sor...
      - Beldin 5y ago
smarri 5y ago
Great to read about your experience and challenges. I'm currently doing a part-time Masters in Software Development while working. A lot of what you said resonates with me.
wiz21c 5y ago
I'm currently in a Master program (data science: maths, maths, maths and maths, oh and maths). I'm almost 50 years old. I was very happy to read that article because it doesn't mention a little detail : age. The sort of effort the author has done is really something he should be proud of, but at 29 your brain is still quite up to to the task. At almost 50 (+kids, +family to keep care of (even if family is incredibly supportive)) it's a totally different story. If you want to be able to learn the courses correctly (that is, you don't just try to barely pass the courses, you look for A grades), then you're in for a ride. Your brain has slowed down by a factor of at least 2. All in all, where a student spend 3 days on a task (praticals, studying), you spend about 8. So it's very difficult to do that with a full time job. Such an effort makes me tired very quickly. But, as the author said, doing something you choose, something that makes a better you, something where what you do is valued (instead of "soft skills") is extremely enjoyable, although exhausting and stressful... I'd do it again, but at maximum 35 years old :-)
- andy_ppp 5y ago
  I've found that cutting out sugar and eating more fat (especially EPA+DHA) has made my brain feel a lot sharper. Also strictness with bedtimes and getting natural light and exercise in the early morning get's ever more important with age. However, I agree ageing and family are definitely terrible for you :-)
  - monkeycantype 5y ago
    I’ve found the exact opposite, age has given me greater focus, at 50 I’ve been able to study while working and raising four kids, I was not capable of the same in my 20s
    - wiz21c 5y ago
      How was memorizing going ? For me it's real bad. Things just don't stick in my mind (I've never experienced that before).
      - 5y ago
martingoodson 5y ago
I’ve done this. It was really hard. Also the best thing I’ve ever done. I had to be very ruthless with my main job. Working strictly 9-5. This really annoyed my boss and I almost got fired, but I just powered through and held my ground. I had to work every evening for about 3 hours. I developed the habit of working even when very tired. Turns out you can do calculus even when exhausted. I had to be very disciplined in saying ‘no’ to nearly all social events. (But still saw my girlfriend/now wife). This whole experience was great fun and I would recommend it if you like learning new stuff. Especially if you want to change career.
- bool3max 5y ago
  Almost fired for working "strictly" 9-5. Oh well..
lordnacho 5y ago
My wife is doing a CS master's, after having done another master's during the lockdown. I'm looking over her shoulder, as I did with my brother a few years ago. It's been interesting to see how she thinks about algorithms and coding from a fresh start. As a longtime coder I've found it interesting to dive back into some basic algorithms. Something about how it is taught to students makes it harder than just learning it as an already experienced dev. I find I can gloss over a lot of the stuff, but there are still details that I don't understand. One thing that helps a lot is modern learning resources, basically websites and videos about the same topics, done by someone else. It's quite different from when I was in uni and you were stuck with the people you had around you and the same old books. Now if I don't quite understand insertion sort, there's a variety of explanations. For those interested there's a number of UK universities that offer a remote master's. Takes a year full time and two part time, and you can often pay by the module. You might also be able to use the virus situation to get a "non-remote" master's remotely, which my wife managed to do last year.
- Mike_Jordan 5y ago
  > For those interested there's a number of UK universities that offer a remote master's. Would you say it is worth pursuing Masters from the UK university? If you dont mind which university would you consider worth it?
  - lordnacho 5y ago
    Depends a bit on your background. It's pretty convenient for me to just have the course available to look at, and since I've been coding for many years it's not terribly time consuming to fill in the gaps. For someone who's never done anything technical it's quite a leap, but not impossible. I can see she's increasing in confidence from learning this type of stuff, which is really positive. If you're doing it to get a job, then it does seem likely that a CS master's will get you some interviews. Certainly the content is what you'd expect. It's a red brick (certain unis that were established I think in the 1800s?) she's studying at, so pretty good rep but not Oxbridge, which has its own aura. But worthwhile for sure, people won't look down on a red brick.
mcemilg 5y ago
I've almost done this too but I saw that people having full time in masters or researcher in a lab more successful than people doing part-time masters as me. They have more time to do research. They produce more because it's their main job, they can go deeper. They collaborate more with researchers that also broader their research and network in the area. It can be the hardest thing to write a paper from research idea to result alone or with an advisor which is the advisor only will help you with the theory writing.
m4l3x 5y ago
Congratulations on your degree! As I have started my part-time Master last year I find your article inspiring and motivating!
deleted 5y ago
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hankman86 5y ago
Assuming that you could have landed the job at Google without studying part-time (could you?), I’m a bit baffled by your experience. Unless your degree really propels you in your career (read: your employer values academic degrees over experience), couldn’t you have learned those skills without putting up with the cost and timely investment of formally enrolling for a master’s degree? I’d even go as far as to say: in your late 20s/early 30s, it pays off more to put in the hours at work and to start a family in what’s left of your days. Companies like Google ought to offer great ways to learn “on the job”.
- lbriner 5y ago
  That's my question too. I expect that the larger companies can afford to require qualifications for entry or promotion but for most of us, there is an insane demand for developers and I can choose to learn more about things that I find difficult. I thought about a master (my UG degree was electrical engineering) but I was wondering if it was just an ego thing that would take loads of time, cost loads of money and not really make any difference.
- Beldin 5y ago
  On-the-job training would typically improve skills needed in your day-to-day work. A master's programme should improve academic skills (things like abstraction, reflection, generalisation, communication). The first makes you better at your current job, the latter makes you more flexible and versatile for any job. Both are valuable, but for different reasons. Whether pursuing a master's degree is worth it depends on your individual circumstances.
- 10x-dev 5y ago
  Some context: during my part-time masters degree, which took 3 years to complete, I wrote the following from scratch: a MIPS and ARMv4 CPU in FPGA, an emulator for ARMv4, an assembler for it, a compiler for C89, an OS kernel with a shell, a 3d game, and several websites, webapps and mobile apps. A job at Google won't bring you even close to be able to learn all of that on the job. The real world version of most of such projects are orders of magnitude more complicated, take years to develop and have tens to hundreds of people working on them. Since you lack both the theoretical and practical knowledge of writing a kernel, for example, you will not be designing the solution for it at Google. At best you will learn to implement a piece of it, and it will take years (think of working on Fuchsia with no prior kernel experience). A (master's) degree isn't an automatic ticket to becoming the lead developer on Fuchsia, but it gives you the chance to learn the theoretical portion of the domain and apply it in a controlled environment, at an accelerated pace, under the guidance of a person who specializes in teaching (not jaded Joe who's waiting for his RSUs to vest), so you have a large foundation on which to build the real world practical skills on the job. Even if you switch teams every half, you will still not be able to cover the breadth of the material in a master's program on the job, not to mention having to perform to get a good enough rating to stay employed, while having essentially no prior knowledge of the topic. You could supplement by taking some courses or reading books after work, but this would essentially be a diy masters without access to experienced professors, that would take much longer and be several times more stressful and inefficient.
donatj 5y ago
I’m in my mid-30s and have a CompSci Associates from a now defunct for-profit school. At 18, I was very much in a rush just to get into the industry, and this was a path that got me there by 20. While I have a well paying job, part of me always wonders about going back and getting a better degree. I wouldn’t even know where to start. The article gives me a little hope for the idea however.
- barry-cotter 5y ago
  https://www.ox.ac.uk/admissions/graduate/courses/msc-software-engineering https://www.ox.ac.uk/admissions/graduate/courses/msc-softwar... > A typical applicant will have at least two years' experience in a professional environment, and an undergraduate degree in a related subject. However, more extensive experience may compensate for a lack of formal qualifications
holoduke 5y ago
I did it as well. Finished when I was 34. At that time I had no kids and was working 36 hours. Wasn't that hard. I can believe it would be very hard today. Kids, busy work. Its hard to find even 1 hour of free time a day. So conclusion: do it before getting kids :)
feelonmuch 5y ago
TomMasz 5y ago
I did exactly this, starting when I was 30. It was a lot of work and it was made worse by starting a family in the middle. That extended things by a couple of years. But it was worth it, salary and position-wise.
throwaway6734 5y ago
>When I got my first real programming job at the small startup, they hired me as an inexperienced junior frontend engineer who would be willing to learn fast, and the classes helped show that I was serious about learning more. This helped me transition away from doing some development work at the tiny non-tech company to being a Real Engineer at a real (albeit small) tech company. How does someone go from junior experience to a job at Google? Are they really hiring "normal" devs that haven't gone to the big schools?
saruken 5y ago
> I roughly knew about TCP/IP (partly from seeing the option in StarCraft when connecting to Battlenet in 2001) I feel seen
pikzel 5y ago
Did my master's full time while working full time. Never had better grades before or after, but sacrificed a lot and nothing stuck. Can't remember barely anything I learned during my master's.
hiddenwaffle 5y ago
100% agree on "where did my in-person interactions go" but for a different reason. Almost all of my peer group (working professionals) did the program remotely. Instead, the on-campus student body was mostly teenage undergraduates and international students with no work experience. Also agree on "where did my money go". I've always assumed a huge amount of it went to administration and groundskeeping.
cptwunderlich 5y ago
Uff, I started working part-time pretty soon after starting my bachelors and have studied and worked part-time for many years. It's terrible. Worst of both worlds. Now I quit my job and trying to finish my master's thesis. What surprises me is, that he took so few classes. This seems to be different in every country (note: am in Europe). When I did a semester abroad, I got way more credits per class. Here all the classes are either 3 or 6 credits and you need 120 (30 for thesis). Anyway, I do like the academic side of things and so many topics that I would have never gotten into (compilers, formal methods...), so I wouldn't want to miss it. Just wish I had finished sooner...
sdevonoes 5y ago
I did the same. My schedule was: - leave home at 7:30am to arrive to work at 9am - work from 9am to 16 (so 7h, my company allowed me to do so with the corresponding pay decrease) - university from 16 to 18 (sometimes 16 to 19) - back at home between 20 and 21 - go to bed at around midnight I did this for a year (I was 25 years old). It was hard. Main reason to do it was: don't lose a year of work experience, don't lose a year of salary.
- fatnoah 5y ago
  I had a similar schedule when I was 25-26 and finishing my masters part time. I'd done the first half as a full time student, but needed to get a job and make money. - Out of bed at 7:30am, at work at 9am. - Leave work at 4:30pm or so for the 60-90 minute trip to campus - Class until 8:30pm - Home at 9:30pm Classes were held two nights per week, so on the non-class nights, I was usually home from work by 6:30pm and would have a couple hours of studying to do. It was an exhausting two years.
gerl1ng 5y ago
I did my bachelors and masters degree in cooperation with different companys in germany. Over here it is quite normal that companys have open positions for cooperative degrees. For most it comes down to some evening courses or courses crapted together on a few days so that the other days are available for part time working. At my university we had it a little different. For Bachelors it was: - 1. Semester: Studying (Full time) - 2. Semester: Studying (Full time) - 3. Semester: Working with writing a paper on some work project specific stuff to gather some more Credits - 4. Semester: Studying (Full time) - 5. Semester: Working with writing a paper on some work project specific stuff to gather some more Credits - 6. Semester: Studying (Full time) - 7. Semester: Working with writing a paper on some work project specific stuff to gather some more Credits (3 mo) + 3 months bachelors degree (most of the time based on the stuff you worked on before) The Semester breaks we needed to work full time but also needed to take our 30 days of vacation in that time. So I think we got the best of both worlds. Hands on experience on the work and full time studying on campus. In the companys I joined since then I'm heavily opting to get some cooperative students. Usually by the time of the 4th semester they are up to speed and help a lot in the 8 months they are there.
photochemsyn 5y ago
The one attractive reason for pursuing a MS in compsci would be access to high-end equipment and the opportunity to work for people who were both (1) skilled in the use and theory of such equipment and (2) actually interested in serving as mentors for people just learning the ropes. Definitely a 'do your diligent research on the program you're interested in' situation, though, to see if that's the case. Having gone through one academic program (molecular bio/biochemistry at both BS and MS level), that was the real value, i.e. I was lucky enough to get and keep a undergrad job in a cutting-edge research laboratory and that really taught me more of real value than all my classes combined, and opened doors to future graduate research as well. Now I'm learning programming and compsci, having gotten a bit burnt out on underpaid lab tech work, and having gone through an intense year of school up through the basic data structures, algorithms, architecture and assembly, with networking and web programming on the side... kind of doubt that much more schooling of this type (online course work, etc.) will be all that beneficial. The cost factor alone is very off-putting. A two-year hands on program in cutting-edge robotics hardware and software development, though, that would be pretty worthwhile I think. P.S. Age isn't that relevant, I don't really feel any dumber now trying to learn new material and develop skills than I did in my early 20s. It's always an uphill struggle. Organization is much better now so that helps, and my mental flops don't seem noticeably different as far as I can tell.
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hiram112 5y ago
I'm middle age and have begun to feel as if I'm being surpassed by younger engineers who've had more relevant CS and engineering curriculums in the 15 years since I got my bachelors. I enrolled in a masters of CS (online) at a prestigious university and was able to complete the first 3 credit course. I enjoyed it and did well, but ended up dropping the next course. My thoughts were: * At the pace I was going, it'd take at least 5 years to finish (3 credits / semester). While working full time, it meant that at least half my weekend was spent on course work, and often times the other weekend day and a few evenings within the work-week were also. Looking at the next 5 years of my life being consumed so much seemed daunting. * Tuition cost is insane these days, even without all the on-campus fees, expensive text books, etc. The masters would have ended up costing about $60K by the time I finished. * From a career perspective, I'm not sure how much the it is worth. The software industry just does not value higher academic / professional degrees as much as others, where its often times absolutely required (e.g. law, medicine, academia itself, etc). * From a financial perspective, it seems that grinding Leetcode and "studying" interviewing would be a far better use of time. A masters might end up providing a $10K / year salary bump for the remaining 15-20 years of my career. A FAANG position might provide $100K+ / year increase... or more now that FAANG salaries are hitting $500K+, while typical F500 engineering are still stuck in the $150K range - a true bimodal situation where Leetcode and interviewing skills have a 100X ROI vs a masters. Though, I wonder if in 10 years the masters would have brought me more personal satisfaction (accomplishment, prestige, etc) than the extra money (assuming I even follow the Leetcode/FAANG path to big bucks).
- ativzzz 5y ago
  I am doing the Georgia Tech online masters https://omscs.gatech.edu/ https://omscs.gatech.edu/ right now, and your points do resonate. The financial ROI would be higher if I just invested that time into career, but I have no formal CS education and I'm doing this purely out of a learning experience. Life is long, education is important in the long term, and money isn't the main goal for everything. Plus, it's under $10k for the entire program.
throwawaygal7 5y ago
Doing a part time masters was a huge mistake I made in my early 20s. Sure, I learned a lot but I lost a lot of time and picked up a few grey hairs. It really took a toll on my family and social life. It has not benefited my career at all, which is why I tell people to avoid this route unless they have a non-comp Sci bachelors and even then to consider doing a second bachelors instead. Despite interviewing a great deal since then and getting a few different positions no one in industry has ever really cared about it, except to call my background 'academic' in a vaugely negative manner at some smaller shops. I make very comparable salary to my peers who just have their bachelors. I usually recommend people not to go this route unless they just want to learn for the sake of learning... which I did, but I thought it would help career wise too and it really hasnt. Honestly I think there are a number of people in startups who will actively hold an MS against you, seeing it as a sign of failure. I have outright been told when interviewing that it is being held against me, because successful people don't need one.
jcadam 5y ago
I did an MBA for my Master's while working FT. So much easier than an MSCS. :D
leros 5y ago
I completed an MS in software engineering while I was working. I ultimately consider it to have been a waste of time and money. I think it gave my resume a slight boost early in my career but I don't think it matters much now.
- HeyLaughingBoy 5y ago
  I'm sorry. My experience is that my MSSE made me look at software development in a different way and definitely gave me a much wider view of what was in front of me. Then again, my only out of pocket cost was parking, since my employer reimbursed everything except that. Stuff like Project Management, Quality Control and even formal real-time system analysis are probably not concepts I would have learned on my own. Coming from an EE background, it definitely gave me a leg up. Not to mention the class discussions with people from widely varying software niches give really useful perspectives from outside your own little bubble.
  - mbot5324 5y ago
    > Project Management, Quality Control and even formal real-time system analysis While powerful and topics that need to be taught somewhere, that's not the takeaways I would've expected from a masters in computer science. I suppose we're talking about a masters of software engineering, which makes those topics feel more relevant. Perhaps that shows the importance of program selection and concentration.
    - HeyLaughingBoy 5y ago
      Correct. I specifically did not want an MSCS since I didn't think it would be very relevant for me. TBH, I didn't intend to get a degree when I started. I took a couple of interesting courses, but then all the other ones that looked good (like real time systems analysis) had required prerequisites. Once you've taken those prerequisites, you might as well just take all the credits required for the degree. Software Project Management was one of the required classes and it turned out to be one of the most interesting ones of all!
  - 5y ago
trylfthsk 5y ago
Doing a Master's in Mathematics while working full+ time as an engineering contractor (27 yo) 1. Unlike a B.S., having money is a gamechanger in terms of QOL 2. It's forced me to actually start time managing. Charitably, I'd always been a shamelessly mediocre student, and this has started to change. 3. I wish I would've done this earlier (~5 years out of school), but work experience has definitely been a positive. 4. Instructor goal setting has been worth every penny; I shotgunned a bunch of half-baked ideas self-learning, but I admit I need a guide; there's too many weeds to get lost among, and it takes a lot of work to get some topics to sink in. Without understanding what/why/how things are worth learning, I would typically lose interest once the going got too tough to entertain passing interest. 5. I don't have my heart set on any particular use for the degree, but it does seem to be a door-opener even as a student.

197 points by otras 5y ago

commandlinefan 5y ago

Did that too while working full time and raising two kids, thesis and all. Glad I did it, gladder I’m done.

daxfohl 5y ago
For some reason I thought I had clicked on the comments section for the "two sleeps" article and saw this and thought "wow".
- prawn 5y ago
  I would've thought it was the default for many parents; my youngest child is pretty persistent with her polyphasic sleep...
  - vidarh 5y ago
    When my son was younger I got into a habit of going to sleep when he did, and then getting up a few hours later to do a few hours of work on side projects and then back to sleep. It worked quite well. We'd also get into the habit of taking him to soft play centres (for those unaware: think warehouse full of padded climbing structures over multiple floors and a horde of kids running rampant through them; a total nightmare if your kid insists you join in, or quite relaxing when they run off by themselves) during the weekend so he could wear himself out totally and then go home and have a couple of hours nap when he did. Until that horrible day when we got home from the soft play and he didn't go down for a nap... I can still remember the disappointment (we ended up still taking naps, but having to take turns)
rootusrootus 5y ago
Getting my master's while working full time and raising two young kids is probably not the brightest choice I've ever made, but I feel similarly. Glad I did it, even more glad that I'm finished. Nice to have my life back...
angarg12 5y ago
I also completed my master's while working full time way back then (+10 years ago). I wouldn't say it was the happiest or most relaxed time of my life, but I'm glad it was over in a year. BTW in restrospect doing a master's degree wasn't such a good choice anyway.
- commandlinefan 5y ago
  > doing a master's degree wasn't such a good choice Curious why you feel that way? I did mine because my employer paid for 100% of it - I don't think it would have been worth it if I'd had to pay for it myself, but otherwise I got a lot out of it.

pineapple-pizza 5y ago

Did the same but with full-time Bachelor's degree and full-time working. Took me 4 years but was definitely worth it and glad I'm finished.

greenpizza13 5y ago

Did this, too. Part-time Master’s while working full-time. Took two very difficult years including summers.

somewhat_drunk 5y ago

I'm doing this now, but with OMSCS. One class at a time is all I can manage. The program is rigorous.

notreallyserio 5y ago
I've been thinking about doing this, too. Would you say it is interesting and a lot of work or just a lot of work?
- flinginggoat 5y ago
  Not the person you asked, but I’m starting my 6th/7th courses in the OMSCS program this semester. It can definitely be interesting, but like any program, it depends on the course and professor. I’ve had some great courses (like the intro AI course I took last Fall) and I’ve had a terrible course (decent relational database course, but the only TA who responded to questions was absolutely terrible to students). I enrolled in the program because I don’t have an undergrad in CS. I wanted to strengthen my credentials and, more importantly, my foundations. So far, I’d say the program has definitely helped with that. It is also a lot of work, but one course a semester isn’t going to preclude you from having a life. Two will keep you seriously busy though.
  - deleted 5y ago
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- rootusrootus 5y ago
  It is very much dependent on what you want from it. You can take an easy curriculum and maybe the hardest class will be graduate algorithms. And that class sounds more daunting than it is. But if you are up for it, there are some great classes with great professors who will really make you earn it.
- scubakid 5y ago
  I just finished OMSCS last year. Did one course at a time, no breaks, found the workload for most courses to be quite manageable; i.e. if you're already a good dev and have decent writing skills, you'll probably only have to touch grad school stuff a few times a week if you know how to prioritize. For me, most courses were like 40%-60% interesting, the rest feeling like busy work or the typical kinds of overhead you get within any academic framework (I mean that less flippantly than it sounds; personally, it's the highest density of interesting content I've had in an educational setting). The program forced me to explore a few topics I probably wouldn't have otherwise, which is good...but I'm also the type that enjoys building and launching side projects, and I found it hard to do that in any meaningful way while working full time plus OMSCS. So looking back, I can't be sure yet if the piece of paper will have been worth the opportunity cost, but overall I thought it was a good program.

seibelj 5y ago

I did this at Boston University (night school at MET) over 4 years. 10 total classes, they do 3 semesters a year, and I took 2 semesters off. Overall I liked it, solid program, assisted me later when the credential helped validate me to hiring managers and then later to investors. It also forced me to study deeper and become much more serious about the foundational knowledge. The most hilarious part to me was that I did my undergrad at BU and it was ~$200k total over 4 years for a CS degree pre-2010 (BU has since gone parabolic in cost and is now over $75k per year!). My entire masters at night was ~$30k from 2012-2016, and I get the same institutional signal on my resume. Why? Grad students taking night classes have to typically pay out of pocket, and want value for their money. Undergraduates, especially the enormous quantity of non-STEM majors, are not thinking rationally and take out huge debt for an experience.[0][1] This colors my opinion on why the government should not guarantee unlimited undergraduate debt - the cost problem would be solved overnight if students had to actually pay their way. [0] BU has an indoor lazy river that they try very hard to de-emphasize and keep images off the internet of. However it does exist as a "recreation pool" https://legitcampus.wordpress.com/2013/06/01/hey-boston-university-is-this-lazy-river-legit/ https://legitcampus.wordpress.com/2013/06/01/hey-boston-univ... [1] BU is a school full of rich foreigners and trust funders. When I graduated (granted it was shortly after the iPhone was invented) the total number of CS students graduating out of a total class of almost 4000 students was 30! 30 whole CS majors out of 4000! The communications school was something like 1000 students. CS classes were in the basement of the math building, and the ceiling was falling down, pipes were banging, and I'm positive asbestos was rampant. A rich donor has now funded a new enormous CS building, but the capital cost will continue to add onto BU's enormous tuition as it expands ever further into Kenmore and Brookline https://www.bu.edu/articles/2021/update-on-bus-center-for-computing-data-sciences/ https://www.bu.edu/articles/2021/update-on-bus-center-for-co...

anduru_h 5y ago
I was under the impression that the masters classes were designed to be a cash cow for institutions!
- yitianjian 5y ago
  Full time masters especially with international students are definitely cash cows

sdave 5y ago

Completed OMSCS in Fall 2020 - while working in a startup & raising young kid. Was brutal, but worth it! Thanks to Georgia Tech. for creating this program!! Program link: https://omscs.gatech.edu https://omscs.gatech.edu

tumblewit 5y ago
OMSCS alumni here. Can’t believe more people don’t know about it!
- shepherdjerred 5y ago
  Did it feel worthwhile? Did you learn as much as you'd expected to?
  - danrocks 5y ago
    Not the person you asked, but I've done the same. The answer: you have to choose the classes well. If you go with some easy classes for credit, you will be disappointed. If you decide to really do the program, then there are at least 15-20 classes worth taking. Some are really theoretical (ML), others are practical (Big Data for Health, lots of Spark and Scala), and some in between. To be the best class was AI, which deals with classical AI algorithms (minimax, tree search, etc.) - well designed class with some lessons by Peter Norvig. All in all, I know it's not the exact same program taught live (although they say it is), but the classes are available online are good quality, I learned a lot, and at $841 per class, the price is unbeatable. Downsides: I have a job and a kid. The workload for some of these classes is massive, so weekends (at least full Saturday) is gone for the duration of the semester, if you study at night every day - then Sundays are yours. Except for the ML class; that was pretty fucking insane and incidentally, the class where I feel I learned the least so far.
  - sdave 5y ago
    (Not the person u asked :-) ) Short answer = Yes. Learned a lot and some more. (but of course depends on what courses you end up taking). In fact, its quite common to see alumni taking courses after they have graduated (case in point: many folks from my batch enrolled in the newly started DL class, just for the sake of learning).

irrational 5y ago

I’d like to do this, but after the kids are out of the house. I can’t imagine working full time, raising kids, and going to school.

joeframbach 5y ago

I couldn't do it. From 2008 to 2011, I was 3 credits and half a thesis paper short, had to quit for my health. I had lost too much weight, down to 150 lbs at 6'3", I was falling asleep at work and not meeting expectations. It was horrendous. Props to anyone who can make it work. And to those who were bailed out by the Bank of Mom and Dad, a big fuck you.

rpunkfu 5y ago
Wouldn't you as a parent want to help your children avoid things you experienced? I think you always want your children to go through less hassle than yourself? I personally believe that guiding children through struggles we experienced is not a good idea of parenting. Disclaimer: I didn't finish college as well, for same reasons as you. Edit: I've realized my comment might've sounded like a critique of your parenting methods or anyone else's. That wasn't my intention, just that I know that it's hard to realize those things sometimes, especially if you're not a parent. I've always seen making life easier for your children as a bad thing, now I see this as the most important thing to do in life. It gets bad when you could move it further, helping people around making their life easier, but you don't - essentially making sure money "stays in family".. Again only my 2c.
- KingMachiavelli 5y ago
  Agreed, my parents adopted the financial policy of providing just enough support that college was as difficult as possible but technically affordable. In hind sight, just a bit more help would have made a world of difference. That said there is a huge expectation in the US. 90% of the time professors or admins mentioned paying for college they assumed people were getting parental assistance or financial aid. For better or worse paying for your adult child's higher education is not really a parental strategy but rather a societal norm all but written into law.
  - joeframbach 5y ago
    That was very Mitt Romney of you.
- 5y ago

BeetleB 5y ago

Those costs are amazing. I just compared two state universities I'm familiar with, and the fees are vastly different - but the schools are ranked similarly. These are relatively low ranked. Heck, I just compared to a different top 10 state school, and it is cheaper than one of the no-rank schools. I guess it all comes down to which state you live in.

2457013579 5y ago

For those debating starting a master’s program, the institution makes a big difference about 2 main factors. Required cost (which has been spoken about by multiple people so far), and required effort (which no one has touched on yet, and the reason I’m writing this). While effort isn’t best depicted as a single value, some attributes of effort that I found making the act of getting a MS particularly easier and more enjoyable involves how professors bend to the life of students, rather than students to professors. For homework this looks something like how common and easier it is to get an extension, extra help, adjustment of assignment/test, and so on. For schoolwork this looks something like whether class attendance is required, class sessions and professor office hours are time/location specific, and so on. The original article talks about someone that made the decision to do school in person and then about how there were issues when it became remote. I opted to take an online program offered at a standard institution in hopes of increased flexibility and the same piece of paper at the end. All my classes were pre-recorded lessons I could watch at my convenience. We would complete assignments and talk about them in a comment thread (usually required to do one OP and 2 comments per week), and also have larger projects etc. in groups. On about half of my classes I asked for and was always given extensions of anywhere between 30 days to complete and assignment to 3 extra months to finish 80% of the class I haven’t even touched yet due to increased demand at work. As a side comment I’ll say you miss 100% of the extensions you don’t ask for, so if you ever feel stressed for time give it a shot and ask for an extension before the official due date or even on the day it’s due. Especially in higher education, I’ve never heard of a professor not working with a student. At the end of they day they have a financial incentive to keep you in the program.

vector_spaces 5y ago
Absolutely. And don't be ashamed to speak with your disabled students accomodations office about getting the accommodations you need. If you test slowly, request extended time. If depression or something else keeps you from getting stuff done during the week, ask for flexible deadline extensions. People are hesitant to request accommodations they genuinely need and it boggles my mind. It's especially important for math and science STEM fields -- I wouldn't be making any progress on my math degree if I didn't request accommodations and left it up to individual instructors whether to approve or deny my requests for extensions

jcims 5y ago

I dropped out of college in 1993. I’ve been in industry since and empty nesting has me thinking about going back to school. Are there programs that will give me any credit for time served? Not a full degree obviously but maybe fast forward a couple years in the process. I’m thinking a 30 year old transcript with a ~2.0 GPA isn’t going to move the needle much.

andi999 5y ago
Do you really want that? You would skip useful knowledge, wouldnt you?
- vidarh 5y ago
  When I took my MSc. most of the subjects were things I was very familiar with already, and so most of the courses were paint by numbers. There were exceptions that were worthwhile, but it was largely an exercise in documenting my existing knowledge. I couldn't test out of things, and most subject had compulsory exercises, so I spent a lot of time basically proving what I already knew rather than learning new stuff. It was clear to me in advance which courses I could have easily skipped, so from that perspective I would not have skipped useful knowledge. That said, of course the problem is that to give me an actual degree the university needed to know I actually knew those things and verifying that only with tests is hard to get right.
  - andi999 5y ago
    Good point. OP dropped out of college 30 years ago, it might also be good to get into the college-mode with something one is familiar with.
vector_spaces 5y ago
My school provides a way to "test out" of a given course by exam. Basically you contact an instructor for the course and make arrangements with them for what the test will look like, and submit some paperwork. The big downside at my school is the fee for this approach is the regular cost of taking the course, paid before you take the test, and nonrefundable in the event you don't pass. But not passing doesn't appear on your transcripts, so it only dings you financially Also, you're only allowed to test out of a handful of requirements for your major. It was explained to me this is so no one can effectively "buy a degree" over only a semester or two. But I've found most instructors willing to let someone in their classes who doesn't have formal prereqs who has relevant work experience I'm in a similar boat in that I'm in my 30s now back in school. when I was 18 I dicked around for a couple semesters and dropped out. Thankfully my old community college has a system for expunging bad grades that are more than 7 years old, and I don't think that's very uncommon

jackdawed 5y ago

I was in the same research lab as the author, but from a different school (BU). When I found out that most of my peers were also doing their master's part time while working, I wished I could do that. But as an international student, there are a lot of restrictions. I had to do it full time (3-4 classes per semester), and I could only work 20 hours part time on campus, usually as a TA and/or research assistant. I did 3 jobs to max that out since most jobs only required you to work 6-8 hours a week. I could only do one internship for my entire degree. My total cost for 2 years was $117,889. BU did not have scholarships or aid for international students, because saying you need aid is admitting that you lied on the visa application. Then I had to pay $7800 to work on my thesis over the summer, which I chose not to finish because I wanted to start working earlier. To make up for lack of work experience, I pretty much did open source contribs 40 hours a week while working on my thesis and TAing. There was a period of 10 weeks where I was putting in 80-100 hours between school and unpaid work. It was still worth it in the end. Similar experience coming from no CS undergrad. There were about 3 good classes that were very valuable, like Algorithms, Cloud Computing, and Embedded Systems. The rest was not that great, especially with remote. When I think about ROI compared to a bootcamp, it's a tough one. Really successful bootcamp grads are already self-selecting going into the bootcamp, same with the really smart students in my master's program. But going to a master's program seems to have a better ROI just based on quality of instruction/institution alone. 6 months after graduation and my pay bump has more than covered it. I was feeding the master's program cash cow, so I think of it as I'm helping fund my US and green card classmates' master's. Most of my peers had 50% or full ride scholarships.

felipemnoa 5y ago
>> $117,889 This is just an insane amount of money for a a masters degree. I had no idea it was that expensive. And why did it take you 2 years if it was only a masters? It is only supposed to be 30 credits. I guess spending a year working on just the thesis could explain that.
- jackdawed 5y ago
  Keep in mind this is for an international student paying out of state tuition with no aid. The 50-60k number is more reasonable for US citizens, <30k if you're coming in with a scholarship. 2 years is the average amount of time for a masters degree. It's typically like 2-3 semesters of classes, then thesis or project. As for credits, my masters segment was 36 credits, while my catch up undergrad segment was 28 credits.

dehrmann 5y ago

> Coming into computer work without a solid CS background meant that there were many gaps in my knowledge. Important note: the author seems to not have a CS background. A solid undergrad CS experience covers a lot of the pluses mentioned.

peter_retief 5y ago

Love the RSS feed link! Not that common anymore.

Borrible 5y ago

Congratulations, well done! Did that a few years ago, started when I was 47, completed with 50. Was easier for me. Distance Learning University in Germany. And I had the opportunity to do it at work. One could call it a side project. Since about two years I try my hand at a bachelor in mathematics at another Distance Learning University in Germany. Guess I will pull that stunt around 2025.

zd123 5y ago
Mind sharing the uni name? I am looking at doing something similar
- Borrible 5y ago
  Sure, have look at my reply above and as a general note perhaps here: https://www.zfh.de/ https://www.zfh.de/ https://www.fernuni-hagen.de/mi/studium/index.shtml https://www.fernuni-hagen.de/mi/studium/index.shtml Sorry, both websites apparently just in German.
  - halfdan 5y ago
    There's https://www.fernuni-hagen.de/english/academics/study-programs/index.shtml https://www.fernuni-hagen.de/english/academics/study-program...
  - Mike_Jordan 5y ago
    Do universities in Germany offer MS only in German language? I am looking for online masters in English.
    - Borrible 5y ago
      I guess most do, but you might have a look here: https://www.mygermanuniversity.com/studyfinder?p=1&pp=25&sort=application_deadline&dir=ASC&dl=1 https://www.mygermanuniversity.com/studyfinder?p=1&pp=25&sor...
    - Beldin 5y ago

smarri 5y ago

Great to read about your experience and challenges. I'm currently doing a part-time Masters in Software Development while working. A lot of what you said resonates with me.

wiz21c 5y ago

I'm currently in a Master program (data science: maths, maths, maths and maths, oh and maths). I'm almost 50 years old. I was very happy to read that article because it doesn't mention a little detail : age. The sort of effort the author has done is really something he should be proud of, but at 29 your brain is still quite up to to the task. At almost 50 (+kids, +family to keep care of (even if family is incredibly supportive)) it's a totally different story. If you want to be able to learn the courses correctly (that is, you don't just try to barely pass the courses, you look for A grades), then you're in for a ride. Your brain has slowed down by a factor of at least 2. All in all, where a student spend 3 days on a task (praticals, studying), you spend about 8. So it's very difficult to do that with a full time job. Such an effort makes me tired very quickly. But, as the author said, doing something you choose, something that makes a better you, something where what you do is valued (instead of "soft skills") is extremely enjoyable, although exhausting and stressful... I'd do it again, but at maximum 35 years old :-)

andy_ppp 5y ago
I've found that cutting out sugar and eating more fat (especially EPA+DHA) has made my brain feel a lot sharper. Also strictness with bedtimes and getting natural light and exercise in the early morning get's ever more important with age. However, I agree ageing and family are definitely terrible for you :-)
- monkeycantype 5y ago
  I’ve found the exact opposite, age has given me greater focus, at 50 I’ve been able to study while working and raising four kids, I was not capable of the same in my 20s
  - wiz21c 5y ago
    How was memorizing going ? For me it's real bad. Things just don't stick in my mind (I've never experienced that before).
    - 5y ago

martingoodson 5y ago

I’ve done this. It was really hard. Also the best thing I’ve ever done. I had to be very ruthless with my main job. Working strictly 9-5. This really annoyed my boss and I almost got fired, but I just powered through and held my ground. I had to work every evening for about 3 hours. I developed the habit of working even when very tired. Turns out you can do calculus even when exhausted. I had to be very disciplined in saying ‘no’ to nearly all social events. (But still saw my girlfriend/now wife). This whole experience was great fun and I would recommend it if you like learning new stuff. Especially if you want to change career.

bool3max 5y ago
Almost fired for working "strictly" 9-5. Oh well..

lordnacho 5y ago

My wife is doing a CS master's, after having done another master's during the lockdown. I'm looking over her shoulder, as I did with my brother a few years ago. It's been interesting to see how she thinks about algorithms and coding from a fresh start. As a longtime coder I've found it interesting to dive back into some basic algorithms. Something about how it is taught to students makes it harder than just learning it as an already experienced dev. I find I can gloss over a lot of the stuff, but there are still details that I don't understand. One thing that helps a lot is modern learning resources, basically websites and videos about the same topics, done by someone else. It's quite different from when I was in uni and you were stuck with the people you had around you and the same old books. Now if I don't quite understand insertion sort, there's a variety of explanations. For those interested there's a number of UK universities that offer a remote master's. Takes a year full time and two part time, and you can often pay by the module. You might also be able to use the virus situation to get a "non-remote" master's remotely, which my wife managed to do last year.

Mike_Jordan 5y ago
> For those interested there's a number of UK universities that offer a remote master's. Would you say it is worth pursuing Masters from the UK university? If you dont mind which university would you consider worth it?
- lordnacho 5y ago
  Depends a bit on your background. It's pretty convenient for me to just have the course available to look at, and since I've been coding for many years it's not terribly time consuming to fill in the gaps. For someone who's never done anything technical it's quite a leap, but not impossible. I can see she's increasing in confidence from learning this type of stuff, which is really positive. If you're doing it to get a job, then it does seem likely that a CS master's will get you some interviews. Certainly the content is what you'd expect. It's a red brick (certain unis that were established I think in the 1800s?) she's studying at, so pretty good rep but not Oxbridge, which has its own aura. But worthwhile for sure, people won't look down on a red brick.

mcemilg 5y ago

I've almost done this too but I saw that people having full time in masters or researcher in a lab more successful than people doing part-time masters as me. They have more time to do research. They produce more because it's their main job, they can go deeper. They collaborate more with researchers that also broader their research and network in the area. It can be the hardest thing to write a paper from research idea to result alone or with an advisor which is the advisor only will help you with the theory writing.

m4l3x 5y ago

Congratulations on your degree! As I have started my part-time Master last year I find your article inspiring and motivating!

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hankman86 5y ago

Assuming that you could have landed the job at Google without studying part-time (could you?), I’m a bit baffled by your experience. Unless your degree really propels you in your career (read: your employer values academic degrees over experience), couldn’t you have learned those skills without putting up with the cost and timely investment of formally enrolling for a master’s degree? I’d even go as far as to say: in your late 20s/early 30s, it pays off more to put in the hours at work and to start a family in what’s left of your days. Companies like Google ought to offer great ways to learn “on the job”.

lbriner 5y ago
That's my question too. I expect that the larger companies can afford to require qualifications for entry or promotion but for most of us, there is an insane demand for developers and I can choose to learn more about things that I find difficult. I thought about a master (my UG degree was electrical engineering) but I was wondering if it was just an ego thing that would take loads of time, cost loads of money and not really make any difference.
Beldin 5y ago
On-the-job training would typically improve skills needed in your day-to-day work. A master's programme should improve academic skills (things like abstraction, reflection, generalisation, communication). The first makes you better at your current job, the latter makes you more flexible and versatile for any job. Both are valuable, but for different reasons. Whether pursuing a master's degree is worth it depends on your individual circumstances.
10x-dev 5y ago
Some context: during my part-time masters degree, which took 3 years to complete, I wrote the following from scratch: a MIPS and ARMv4 CPU in FPGA, an emulator for ARMv4, an assembler for it, a compiler for C89, an OS kernel with a shell, a 3d game, and several websites, webapps and mobile apps. A job at Google won't bring you even close to be able to learn all of that on the job. The real world version of most of such projects are orders of magnitude more complicated, take years to develop and have tens to hundreds of people working on them. Since you lack both the theoretical and practical knowledge of writing a kernel, for example, you will not be designing the solution for it at Google. At best you will learn to implement a piece of it, and it will take years (think of working on Fuchsia with no prior kernel experience). A (master's) degree isn't an automatic ticket to becoming the lead developer on Fuchsia, but it gives you the chance to learn the theoretical portion of the domain and apply it in a controlled environment, at an accelerated pace, under the guidance of a person who specializes in teaching (not jaded Joe who's waiting for his RSUs to vest), so you have a large foundation on which to build the real world practical skills on the job. Even if you switch teams every half, you will still not be able to cover the breadth of the material in a master's program on the job, not to mention having to perform to get a good enough rating to stay employed, while having essentially no prior knowledge of the topic. You could supplement by taking some courses or reading books after work, but this would essentially be a diy masters without access to experienced professors, that would take much longer and be several times more stressful and inefficient.

donatj 5y ago

I’m in my mid-30s and have a CompSci Associates from a now defunct for-profit school. At 18, I was very much in a rush just to get into the industry, and this was a path that got me there by 20. While I have a well paying job, part of me always wonders about going back and getting a better degree. I wouldn’t even know where to start. The article gives me a little hope for the idea however.

barry-cotter 5y ago
https://www.ox.ac.uk/admissions/graduate/courses/msc-software-engineering https://www.ox.ac.uk/admissions/graduate/courses/msc-softwar... > A typical applicant will have at least two years' experience in a professional environment, and an undergraduate degree in a related subject. However, more extensive experience may compensate for a lack of formal qualifications

holoduke 5y ago

I did it as well. Finished when I was 34. At that time I had no kids and was working 36 hours. Wasn't that hard. I can believe it would be very hard today. Kids, busy work. Its hard to find even 1 hour of free time a day. So conclusion: do it before getting kids :)

feelonmuch 5y ago

TomMasz 5y ago

I did exactly this, starting when I was 30. It was a lot of work and it was made worse by starting a family in the middle. That extended things by a couple of years. But it was worth it, salary and position-wise.

throwaway6734 5y ago

>When I got my first real programming job at the small startup, they hired me as an inexperienced junior frontend engineer who would be willing to learn fast, and the classes helped show that I was serious about learning more. This helped me transition away from doing some development work at the tiny non-tech company to being a Real Engineer at a real (albeit small) tech company. How does someone go from junior experience to a job at Google? Are they really hiring "normal" devs that haven't gone to the big schools?

saruken 5y ago

> I roughly knew about TCP/IP (partly from seeing the option in StarCraft when connecting to Battlenet in 2001) I feel seen

pikzel 5y ago

Did my master's full time while working full time. Never had better grades before or after, but sacrificed a lot and nothing stuck. Can't remember barely anything I learned during my master's.

hiddenwaffle 5y ago

100% agree on "where did my in-person interactions go" but for a different reason. Almost all of my peer group (working professionals) did the program remotely. Instead, the on-campus student body was mostly teenage undergraduates and international students with no work experience. Also agree on "where did my money go". I've always assumed a huge amount of it went to administration and groundskeeping.

cptwunderlich 5y ago

Uff, I started working part-time pretty soon after starting my bachelors and have studied and worked part-time for many years. It's terrible. Worst of both worlds. Now I quit my job and trying to finish my master's thesis. What surprises me is, that he took so few classes. This seems to be different in every country (note: am in Europe). When I did a semester abroad, I got way more credits per class. Here all the classes are either 3 or 6 credits and you need 120 (30 for thesis). Anyway, I do like the academic side of things and so many topics that I would have never gotten into (compilers, formal methods...), so I wouldn't want to miss it. Just wish I had finished sooner...

sdevonoes 5y ago

I did the same. My schedule was: - leave home at 7:30am to arrive to work at 9am - work from 9am to 16 (so 7h, my company allowed me to do so with the corresponding pay decrease) - university from 16 to 18 (sometimes 16 to 19) - back at home between 20 and 21 - go to bed at around midnight I did this for a year (I was 25 years old). It was hard. Main reason to do it was: don't lose a year of work experience, don't lose a year of salary.

fatnoah 5y ago
I had a similar schedule when I was 25-26 and finishing my masters part time. I'd done the first half as a full time student, but needed to get a job and make money. - Out of bed at 7:30am, at work at 9am. - Leave work at 4:30pm or so for the 60-90 minute trip to campus - Class until 8:30pm - Home at 9:30pm Classes were held two nights per week, so on the non-class nights, I was usually home from work by 6:30pm and would have a couple hours of studying to do. It was an exhausting two years.

gerl1ng 5y ago

I did my bachelors and masters degree in cooperation with different companys in germany. Over here it is quite normal that companys have open positions for cooperative degrees. For most it comes down to some evening courses or courses crapted together on a few days so that the other days are available for part time working. At my university we had it a little different. For Bachelors it was: - 1. Semester: Studying (Full time) - 2. Semester: Studying (Full time) - 3. Semester: Working with writing a paper on some work project specific stuff to gather some more Credits - 4. Semester: Studying (Full time) - 5. Semester: Working with writing a paper on some work project specific stuff to gather some more Credits - 6. Semester: Studying (Full time) - 7. Semester: Working with writing a paper on some work project specific stuff to gather some more Credits (3 mo) + 3 months bachelors degree (most of the time based on the stuff you worked on before) The Semester breaks we needed to work full time but also needed to take our 30 days of vacation in that time. So I think we got the best of both worlds. Hands on experience on the work and full time studying on campus. In the companys I joined since then I'm heavily opting to get some cooperative students. Usually by the time of the 4th semester they are up to speed and help a lot in the 8 months they are there.

photochemsyn 5y ago

The one attractive reason for pursuing a MS in compsci would be access to high-end equipment and the opportunity to work for people who were both (1) skilled in the use and theory of such equipment and (2) actually interested in serving as mentors for people just learning the ropes. Definitely a 'do your diligent research on the program you're interested in' situation, though, to see if that's the case. Having gone through one academic program (molecular bio/biochemistry at both BS and MS level), that was the real value, i.e. I was lucky enough to get and keep a undergrad job in a cutting-edge research laboratory and that really taught me more of real value than all my classes combined, and opened doors to future graduate research as well. Now I'm learning programming and compsci, having gotten a bit burnt out on underpaid lab tech work, and having gone through an intense year of school up through the basic data structures, algorithms, architecture and assembly, with networking and web programming on the side... kind of doubt that much more schooling of this type (online course work, etc.) will be all that beneficial. The cost factor alone is very off-putting. A two-year hands on program in cutting-edge robotics hardware and software development, though, that would be pretty worthwhile I think. P.S. Age isn't that relevant, I don't really feel any dumber now trying to learn new material and develop skills than I did in my early 20s. It's always an uphill struggle. Organization is much better now so that helps, and my mental flops don't seem noticeably different as far as I can tell.

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hiram112 5y ago

I'm middle age and have begun to feel as if I'm being surpassed by younger engineers who've had more relevant CS and engineering curriculums in the 15 years since I got my bachelors. I enrolled in a masters of CS (online) at a prestigious university and was able to complete the first 3 credit course. I enjoyed it and did well, but ended up dropping the next course. My thoughts were: * At the pace I was going, it'd take at least 5 years to finish (3 credits / semester). While working full time, it meant that at least half my weekend was spent on course work, and often times the other weekend day and a few evenings within the work-week were also. Looking at the next 5 years of my life being consumed so much seemed daunting. * Tuition cost is insane these days, even without all the on-campus fees, expensive text books, etc. The masters would have ended up costing about $60K by the time I finished. * From a career perspective, I'm not sure how much the it is worth. The software industry just does not value higher academic / professional degrees as much as others, where its often times absolutely required (e.g. law, medicine, academia itself, etc). * From a financial perspective, it seems that grinding Leetcode and "studying" interviewing would be a far better use of time. A masters might end up providing a $10K / year salary bump for the remaining 15-20 years of my career. A FAANG position might provide $100K+ / year increase... or more now that FAANG salaries are hitting $500K+, while typical F500 engineering are still stuck in the $150K range - a true bimodal situation where Leetcode and interviewing skills have a 100X ROI vs a masters. Though, I wonder if in 10 years the masters would have brought me more personal satisfaction (accomplishment, prestige, etc) than the extra money (assuming I even follow the Leetcode/FAANG path to big bucks).

ativzzz 5y ago
I am doing the Georgia Tech online masters https://omscs.gatech.edu/ https://omscs.gatech.edu/ right now, and your points do resonate. The financial ROI would be higher if I just invested that time into career, but I have no formal CS education and I'm doing this purely out of a learning experience. Life is long, education is important in the long term, and money isn't the main goal for everything. Plus, it's under $10k for the entire program.

throwawaygal7 5y ago

Doing a part time masters was a huge mistake I made in my early 20s. Sure, I learned a lot but I lost a lot of time and picked up a few grey hairs. It really took a toll on my family and social life. It has not benefited my career at all, which is why I tell people to avoid this route unless they have a non-comp Sci bachelors and even then to consider doing a second bachelors instead. Despite interviewing a great deal since then and getting a few different positions no one in industry has ever really cared about it, except to call my background 'academic' in a vaugely negative manner at some smaller shops. I make very comparable salary to my peers who just have their bachelors. I usually recommend people not to go this route unless they just want to learn for the sake of learning... which I did, but I thought it would help career wise too and it really hasnt. Honestly I think there are a number of people in startups who will actively hold an MS against you, seeing it as a sign of failure. I have outright been told when interviewing that it is being held against me, because successful people don't need one.

jcadam 5y ago

I did an MBA for my Master's while working FT. So much easier than an MSCS. :D

leros 5y ago

I completed an MS in software engineering while I was working. I ultimately consider it to have been a waste of time and money. I think it gave my resume a slight boost early in my career but I don't think it matters much now.

HeyLaughingBoy 5y ago
I'm sorry. My experience is that my MSSE made me look at software development in a different way and definitely gave me a much wider view of what was in front of me. Then again, my only out of pocket cost was parking, since my employer reimbursed everything except that. Stuff like Project Management, Quality Control and even formal real-time system analysis are probably not concepts I would have learned on my own. Coming from an EE background, it definitely gave me a leg up. Not to mention the class discussions with people from widely varying software niches give really useful perspectives from outside your own little bubble.
- mbot5324 5y ago
  > Project Management, Quality Control and even formal real-time system analysis While powerful and topics that need to be taught somewhere, that's not the takeaways I would've expected from a masters in computer science. I suppose we're talking about a masters of software engineering, which makes those topics feel more relevant. Perhaps that shows the importance of program selection and concentration.
  - HeyLaughingBoy 5y ago
    Correct. I specifically did not want an MSCS since I didn't think it would be very relevant for me. TBH, I didn't intend to get a degree when I started. I took a couple of interesting courses, but then all the other ones that looked good (like real time systems analysis) had required prerequisites. Once you've taken those prerequisites, you might as well just take all the credits required for the degree. Software Project Management was one of the required classes and it turned out to be one of the most interesting ones of all!
- 5y ago

trylfthsk 5y ago

Doing a Master's in Mathematics while working full+ time as an engineering contractor (27 yo) 1. Unlike a B.S., having money is a gamechanger in terms of QOL 2. It's forced me to actually start time managing. Charitably, I'd always been a shamelessly mediocre student, and this has started to change. 3. I wish I would've done this earlier (~5 years out of school), but work experience has definitely been a positive. 4. Instructor goal setting has been worth every penny; I shotgunned a bunch of half-baked ideas self-learning, but I admit I need a guide; there's too many weeds to get lost among, and it takes a lot of work to get some topics to sink in. Without understanding what/why/how things are worth learning, I would typically lose interest once the going got too tough to entertain passing interest. 5. I don't have my heart set on any particular use for the degree, but it does seem to be a door-opener even as a student.