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I'll join the chorus of the other sibling commenters here by expressing skepticism that any medication will at all help with anything. Psychiatric medication o

I'll join the chorus of the other sibling commenters here by expressing skepticism that any medication will at all help with anything. Psychiatric medication often simply numbs your brain so it stops being worried about things that legitimately and truly torment it. It reduces your sensitivity, it knocks off your normal brain chemicals balance, and it turns you into a robot. I've had a family member go through this a long time ago. It was soul-crushing watching them when I visited. They were almost turned to vegetables with chemical means. Doing all this does NOT solve the underlying problems that make people reach for suicide. Those problems are societal and very deeply ingrained at this point. We must look for the reasons that younger people start attempting suicides more than before and try and cure the illness, not the symptoms. I even started finding it offensive when I see people offering medication. It comes across as: "Here ya go champ, let's again deceive your brain that everything's alright when it really isn't, now off ya go and be a good worker bee, and oh by the way that'll be $2000 for the 10 minutes session". Could it be that we just treat people worse and worse with time? I say yes, yes we do. But judging by a lot of other replies in this thread, I'd venture to say that many people are not ready to hear it, sadly, and are still in denial, and will shout anybody thinking otherwise away from their platforms (whichever they might be, virtual or in the meat space). And until that changes, the problem will only deepen.

dools 5y ago
Ironically it is this sort of arm chair anti science bullshit that increase suicide risk among the mentally ill y contributing to a stigma of being medicated for a mental health condition.
- pdimitar 5y ago
  Not at all ironically, you didn't present anything scientific either. And I don't stigmatize people for seeking help. I am skeptical if medications help because I haven't seen them work for the several people I know who tried them.
  - _y5hn 5y ago
    Anti-psychotic drugs helped stabilize someone I know. It did matter to find the right drug, and nothing else helped. So there, one anecdote vs. another. I do agree with the general sentiment, though that has to do with the rulers of this world (not politicians).
    - pdimitar 5y ago
      Yeah, I don't disagree at all. In fact I was on CBD for a while and it really did help me to almost eliminate my anxiety. And yep, my beef with psychiatric chemical help is exactly that: I want to see more will to repair the system and not treat more and more patients.
- OtomotO 5y ago
  On the contrary, blindly believing (not knowing) is unscientific in any and all regards. I too saw people taking pills and becoming "robots" in the methaphoric sense. They were dull and not themselves, "just" without suicidal tendencies. It was absolutely devastating to live under a roof with them. When I got a major depression, a decade back, I decided that I will not take any meds, because I'd rather die the person I was, than live on as an empty shell. Did that mean I didn't get help? Hell no!
  - IAmEveryone 5y ago
    > I too saw people taking pills and becoming "robots" in the methaphoric sense. No, you didn’t. That sort of effect does happen with antipsychotics. The effects of antidepressants are as different from those as Aspirin.
    - OtomotO 5y ago
      I didn't specify which kind of pills they took, did I? A small hint: never tell anyone what they experienced, unless you were there or you're a godlike creature. Edit: I asked again which pills, it was anti depressants. It was half a lifetime ago, doesn't change my or their experience.
R0b0t1 5y ago
To offer some explanation in defense of this, though I can't cite it right now: There's two major tests for the efficacy of depression-treating drugs that I am aware of. One is a "willpower" test, which in one incarnation is attempting to drown a mouse. A compound more likely to be efficacious in humans if it makes a mouse attempt to swim longer before ultimately succumbing to exhaustion. Taken by itself this test seems promising, though one could argue it might blunt whatever mechanism makes you give up and try a different approach. The second is a bit worse, and done in humans. A compound more likely to be efficacious in humans at treating depression also seems to be effective at disrupting short and long term memory. So, they give the sample and a short term memory test and see how you do. If you do worse it is likely to treat depression. You will see, if you go back through past threads, people stating that their ADHD diagnosis was comorbid with or developed after a diagnosis of depression. It is extremely likely that they developed focus problems due to being treated with SSRIs.
- pdimitar 5y ago
  Glad that there are studies and inquiries. We desperately need them yesterday because the culture of "take the magic pill and let's pretend you're OK" is not helping anyone.
- kens 5y ago
  The Force Swim Test is a thing, but I'm extremely skeptical about your second claim.
- refurb 5y ago
  What? For humans they use validated depression surveys conducted by medical professionals. You can look it up in any of the drug labels. A 4-week study of inpatients meeting DSM-III-R criteria for MDD with melancholia utilizing Effexor in a range of 150 to 375 mg per day (divided in a three-times-a-day schedule) demonstrated superiority of Effexor over placebo based on the HAM-D-21 total score. The mean dose in completers was 350 mg per day (study 3). https://labeling.pfizer.com/showlabeling.aspx?id=100#section-14.1 https://labeling.pfizer.com/showlabeling.aspx?id=100#section...
  - 5y ago
aogaili 5y ago
The point of medication is not to always numb your brain but temporary ease the pain until you can stand on your own feet again. When life goes so wrong for some people and their brain pain signal is so high that you can't even get out of bed, those medications help. It helps them to sleep and think less until they start to think correctly. The issue today, is that people are expected to be productive all the time despite the isolation, low wages, lack of ownership, purpose, meaning and the raising inequality. And it is often those who are perceptive enough that tend to suffer more. If you don't want medications, then people need to have enough safety net to be unproductive for at least 3 to 6 months with some basic care, and this is luxury few people have.
- pdimitar 5y ago
  I am not arguing with the desired outcome. But what I've seen more often than not is that people get addicted to the pills and never do stand on their own feet again. And I agree with your second paragraph completely. I am sick of society pretending that people are "sick". They are not. They are responding naturally to an increasingly hostile world.
  - MisterBastahrd 5y ago
    I'm sick of people pretending that they know more about brain chemistry and human behavior than the thousands of professionals and the decades of research devoted to the topic, but here we are with your dismissive posts. Some people eventually get off the medications. Some can't function without them. Your attitude is akin to being upset because once a paraplegic is in a wheelchair that they never just get up and try to walk again.
    - pdimitar 5y ago
      I only see one upset person here and it's not me. It will help if you read more slowly and if you don't get outraged during the process. Then you'll see that not one thing you said was something that I claimed. I never said not even one of the things you claim that I did. A bit of a puzzling comment you posted, man. Another hint: those thousands of professionals have a perverse monetary incentive. Food for thought. Some do good; I've met a few. Many others simply look annoyed and just hand you a prescription. We should do something about the latter.
johncolanduoni 5y ago
I find it offensive when I see people assume that the only reason anybody takes psychoactive medication is to deceive themselves. I know people whose lives are much better on medication (and who see the world much more accurately than without it), I know people whose lives are worse. Are you so confident that you can decide for everybody else which group they fall into? The world and the people in it don’t exist to make clean narratives for others, whether you’re a drug company rep or anti-psychiatry.
- pdimitar 5y ago
  And where did I say that everyone is like this? Christ, people. You aren't necessary everywhere with your "actually" stuff. Chill. I'm sharing what I observe and what I find disturbing. You can just ignore it.
  - johncolanduoni 5y ago
    > I'll join the chorus of the other sibling commenters here by expressing skepticism that any medication will at all help with anything. “at all help with anything” sounds pretty absolute to my ears, as does the wording in basically every other sentence in what you said, but I’m glad to be mistaken. Though I note the person you responded to barely mentioned medication, and you seemed to find it necessary to denounce it in the strongest terms in a reply…
    - pdimitar 5y ago
      Let me quote myself: > * Psychiatric medication often simply numbs your brain...* Notice the word "often". I'm not a 10-year old that claims that the 4-5 cases that I've witnessed represent the entire world and I'm getting tired of everybody here pretending that I'm some kind of monster. Or maybe you're projecting too much? Get off my back already. Read more slowly, don't get outraged, don't assume malice. Does wonders both to mental health and to the quality of online discussions.
      - johncolanduoni 5y ago
jaarse 5y ago
I really used to think this way as well, and was dead set against psychiatric medication. Unfortunately I have had multiple family members recently deal with crippling and harmful bouts of depression and extreme anxiety. They tried many things, but ultimately it was medication (not to remove the feelings, but just to help manage them) and long term counselling that helped things get better. The medication alone is not going to help. But when someone can’t even get out of bed, or ,eave the house, or is so sad that everything becomes a dark fog, I disagree that medication is not required. I’m now extremely grateful that I am in a position where I am able to afford it.
- pdimitar 5y ago
  Sure, they can be a good temporary crutch, I can see that. But are they addressing the root causes?
  - jaarse 5y ago
    Think of it like any other type of medicine. I have blood pressure issues. I try to eat right, and exercise. I have my whole life. I practice meditation and slowing down and generally feel fairly stress free as well. I do this to address the “root” cause as you would put it. Unfortunately in this area I also need a little help from modern science, so I’m glad I have access to it.
    - pdimitar 5y ago
      I think of it exactly like you said. Apparently my root comment was worded in a way that people thought I'm sitting on an extreme. I really am not though.
      - dclowd9901 5y ago
        Your initial argument sits pretty squarely in a camp or class of person that dismisses medication for mental illness. If you meant mental health medications have been overprescribed I think I even take issue with that. Anyone who’s been in that world and has been on any kind of mental health medication knows it’s not usually the first pitch thrown by mental health professionals.
honkycat 5y ago
- missedthecue 5y ago
  "I think this a very evil, ignorant comment. Sincerely: You should be ashamed of yourself for posting this." This, among numerous other parts of your comment are in gross violation of HN rules, just for future reference
- pdimitar 5y ago
  - honkycat 5y ago
    - pdimitar 5y ago
      I said what I observed and it goes without saying that I haven't seen everything. And you... are only seeing what you want and need to argue with someone. I'm not your enemy here, get off my back already.
      - honkycat 5y ago
        No, this is what you said: > Psychiatric medication often simply numbs your brain so it stops being worried about things that legitimately and truly torment it. It reduces your sensitivity, it knocks off your normal brain chemicals balance, and it turns you into a robot. I've had a family member go through this a long time ago. It was soul-crushing watching them when I visited. They were almost turned to vegetables with chemical means. See, the problem with acting like you were trying to be reasonable and you "didn't mean it like that" is that I can go back to your post quote what you said. I didn't "misunderstand" and I did not "only see what I want." I am not going to accept your attempt to backpedal. You said what I pasted above. I thought it was an ignorant thing to say. I responded. > I'm not your enemy here You absolutely are. I care about what is TRUE. You lie and say ignorant things that conveniently align with your values and try to pass them off as wisdom. > get off my back already. I will leave you alone after this final response.
evocatus 5y ago
More pontification and intellectualization of matters that people have no first-hand experience of, as is HN's wont. As someone with over 20 years of mental health issues who refused medication for exactly the same reasons - "sucking it up," trying to address root causes, meditation, spirituality, exercise... ... none of it worked. You could easily spend a lifetime trying to "root cause" the source of your malady and return empty handed, as I have. When the bills need to get paid, and your options are psychological collapse or some chemical attenuation of your mental state, I think the choice is clear. I agree that it's sort of twisted that modern society is structured such that we need to constantly medicate ourselves to cope with day to day existence. Alas.
- pdimitar 5y ago
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - akiselev 5y ago
    > I'll join the chorus of the other sibling commenters here by expressing skepticism that any medication will at all help with anything. (emphasis mine) Right there in the first line. "Any medication", "at all", and "with anything." Come on :)
  - pfortuny 5y ago
    The way you wrote your first paragraph is, honestly, condescending, whether you intended it or not, and gives exactly that impression.
  - SamoyedFurFluff 5y ago
    Maybe you should consider studying rhetoric when making positional statements in the future. It’s clear that your language is failing to fully encompass your position. I myself am very confused how I can take away skepticism that any medical will help at all as somehow having any nuance that medication might work.
rtpg 5y ago
You can't claim to be pro-science and then false-ly claim that psychiatric medication does nothing. Depression and ADHD are _extremely_ treatable through medication, just as examples. There are many studies around this topic, it is way more treatable than certain physical conditions. "Knocks off your normal brain chemicals" have you considered that some people's normal brain chemicals are not set up normally? Would you claim someone who is anemic taking iron supplements should stop cuz they're messing with that? Naturalistic arguments like this lead to many people having way too much skepticism for things that are easily treatable. It leads to people dying. You should be ashamed of spreading this kind of nonsense. EDIT: ADHD medication, when the right medication is given, has like 70% success rate at treating symptoms, and there's like 30% of people who express not just having symptoms reach manageable level, but total removal of all symptoms for their cases! Imagine if we had magical robot prosthetics indistinguishable from actual human limbs. That is what we have for certain mental illnesses, for some set of people.
- pdimitar 5y ago
  - rtpg 5y ago
    You are claiming that medication cannot help with issues (expressing skepticism). I'm sympathetic to what you are saying that external factors are definitely at play (of course they are, in a sense. Mental illness characterised by social interaction will depend on factors of those social interactions). But you're dismissing internal factors! For many mental illnesses, people are able to function on a day-to-day basis without treatment, but would feel better with proper treatment. And sometimes the cup overflows, and people suffer because of it. And people in the chorus of skepticism play into people not getting treatment.
    - pdimitar 5y ago
      Dude, I'm not dismissing anything. I just didn't want to write a book. :) But I can see that many misunderstood my intent, so likely my fault. All I was saying is that medication is over-represented. That was all really. I myself have been on CBD and it helped me. I know pills can be good temporary crutches. But IMO they are given away too quickly (anecdotal evidence) without much regard to what the person is actually going through. I'm obviously aware that what I observed is not 100% of the cases. Really not sure what made so many jump on me claiming that I over-generalized. I didn't. I'm on your side and on the side of many who are going through a rough patch, very much because half of my life was a rough patch. I'm all too aware. I was only saying that medication is a trigger-happy tactic (again in my statistically insignificant observations).
disabled 5y ago
> Luckily, all my friends are fellow techies who are upper-middle class, and can afford medication and therapy (and in one case, out-of-state long-term hospitalization.) But even with insurance, they're looking at many thousands of dollars of treatment. Please understand that I am not anti-psychiatry at all. Your kid and their friends are best doing intensive therapy, and if necessary, sessions twice per week, outpatient. That is their best bet, health-wise. Because of taking Pristiq (desvenlafaxine) [SNRI] and Rexulti (brexpiprazole) for severe depression, I literally have suffered the worst thing imaginable, a drug side effect known as *akathisia*. In no exaggeration, it is worse than death. You have to move constantly, but it does not relieve the terror that you go through. You cannot physically relax at all. Your mind can only think haunting and terrorizing thoughts. It feels like you have been doused in gasoline, lit on fire, and you have been locked in a coffin. You literally survive moment-by-moment not to kill yourself. By the way, it is gruesomely painful from a perceptual standpoint. One time, when I was extremely sick, I went to the hospital and I had no idea whatsoever when I went to the emergency room that I was in sepsis along with diabetic ketoacidosis, due to being in the throes of akathisia. If you have it severely, it can cause violence and suicide. I had it severely and it lasted for about a year. I have 2 rare immune-mediated neurological disease plus type 1 diabetes (autoimmune and insulin-dependent). I have been through really terrible things in my life due to my health but akathisia by far takes the cake. It is in no exaggeration worse than death. Watch this video, this is what it is like every single day you suffer with it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_iiy8ISvdY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_iiy8ISvdY This is a public PSA about akathisia: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VgvhAilA070 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VgvhAilA070 This is excerpts from Jordan Peterson (whom I do not agree with from a political standpoint) who is a psychologist who suffered from it due to benzodiazepines: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UIfllfH0k3I https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UIfllfH0k3I My story has a lot of parallels to this story: https://www.madinamerica.com/2021/06/boy-interrupted-a-story-of-akathisia/ https://www.madinamerica.com/2021/06/boy-interrupted-a-story... > It's past time the West reckons with our mental health crisis. Why is it that we're the wealthiest nations in the world, yet our kids are more stressed and depressed than kids in third-world countries? I think society will only become more and more unstable until we spend time seriously addressing that question and adjust our culture accordingly. Like what? Do what Russia (along with the entire USSR) along with former Yugoslavia did to political dissidents? Did you know that they used to put political dissidents in 4-point restraints and inject them repeatedly with Haldol, in order to induce severe akathisia as a torture method? If you did not appear "crazy" before coming in to some place like the Serbsky Institute in Moscow, you would appear absolutely "crazy" afterwards whenever you came out of there. Have a read: https://fromthetrenchesworldreport.com/soviet-psychiatric-drug-for-dissidents-given-to-us-patients/74782 https://fromthetrenchesworldreport.com/soviet-psychiatric-dr... Also this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_abuse_of_psychiatry_in_the_Soviet_Union https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_abuse_of_psychiatry_... And just FYI, this effectively happened to me in America (although clearly I was not a political dissident). I got picked up by the police due to severe akathisia. I was forced to go to a medical hospital for "observation". I told the nurses that I could not have antipsychotics (which they give for agitation--although akathisia makes you extremely agitated) due to it invoking the akathisia and making it worse. About a week prior to this happening, I had just been diagnosed with akathisia. My world-renowned neurologist in movement disorders put a bunch of allergies in my medical record, including Haldol which he noted the reaction as "Akathisia". However, this particular hospital did not have access to my medical records (thank you "free market"). The nurses said that it was just an "adverse reaction" and therefore I was to receive it. They forced drugged me with antipsychotics and I had to move nonstop and I went really crazy. I was put in 4 point restraints and I was going so crazy that now I even know how to get those things off when they tie them extremely tightly. Anyways, that was the last straw for me when it came to staying in the United States. I am a Croatian (European Union) citizen so I can live abroad in Europe. Nothing will convince me to live in the United States, even though I have been an American citizen my entire life. It is no longer my homeland. And just FYI, Russia Today did a whole propaganda documentary about people who ended up with akathisia (pretty much all of the people profiled in the documentary had it) consisting of Americans taking a bunch of pills. It is called OverPill: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5722_XclQkY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5722_XclQkY
dclowd9901 5y ago
Literally your entire brain functions on trading of chemicals. There is no such thing as “a thought” without the chemicals in your brain producing it. What you describe as “numbness” seems to be your discomfort with a person’s personality changing in front of you… _for their benefit_. As someone who’s long differed from anxiety and depression, I had your mindset at one point. It wasn’t until I started trying medication that I could start evaluating my life in a more objective manner, without the chemicals in my brain discoloring every thought. Now I don’t even need medication, but I am certainly a different person. Medication helped me choose a better life for myself.
- pdimitar 5y ago
  You know what's extremely puzzling to me? That you think I disagree with you. I don't. I completely agree in fact.
IAmEveryone 5y ago
That’s just a bunch of kitchen psychology not even on the level of 19th century Freudian psychoanalysis. You’re starting from a very specific worldview—the puritanical tradition where those upholding a certain set of virtues (industriousness, tolerance to pain, etc) will be richly rewarded (on earth or later) and, conversely, any suffering can be traced back to individual faults. That mindset cannot survive contact with even trace amounts of actual data where, time and time again, medication does make a difference, although that difference remains frustratingly smaller than for other diseases. But it isn’t ‘numbing” of “fake” any more than antibiotics are. You seem to believe antidepressants are like uppers or downers where you chuck a handful and ten minutes later you feel a wave of happiness roll over you. Here’s a secret: take a few of those pills and you will feel… absolutely nothing. Anti-depressants do not produce a “high” in any sense of the word. Changes in mood take months to appear and are usually not even recognized by the patient. It’s their friends who tend to notice it first.
DeadReckoning 5y ago
I did a zoom call with a psychiatrist and got Prozac and propranolol within an hour. Amazed at how easy the process is now with telemedicine and how helpful the right medications are. I wish I hadn’t tried to “tough it out” for so long and being scared away from medication after hearing things like they would numb you or make you feel like a robot. I don’t feel that way at all now that I’ve experienced a number of these medications firsthand.
codingdave 5y ago
> Doing all this does NOT solve the underlying problems that make people reach for suicide. But it gives you time to teach teens coping skills, ingrain healthy habits, and get them through some of the tough teenage years, so you can then back down on meds when they are in a better place, with a better toolkit, to create adults who want to live. I agree the meds are not the best answer in all cases. And there is nothing wrong with discussing their negative aspects. But that doesn't mean they don't serve a purpose in some cases. Especially cases where it truly is a chemical imbalance causing the depression. Which may be more cases than you realize.
- mistermann 5y ago
  > But it gives you time to teach teens coping skills, ingrain healthy habits, and get them through some of the tough teenage years, so you can then back down on meds when they are in a better place, with a better toolkit, to create adults who want to live. From my perspective, the point of contention is whether we are doing this to a satisfactory level, or even "seriously" trying to. Like, what can we point to as humanity seriously trying, with the same seriousness we devote to other endeavours?
Dumblydorr 5y ago
Are you a psychiatrist, psychologist, or mental health expert? The "shouting away" may be caused by non-experts such as yourself thinking your notions are worth more than MDs, who have trained an additional 7+ years than you to become experts in treatment of suicidality.
dang 5y ago
We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29859909 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29859909.

dools 5y ago

Ironically it is this sort of arm chair anti science bullshit that increase suicide risk among the mentally ill y contributing to a stigma of being medicated for a mental health condition.

pdimitar 5y ago
Not at all ironically, you didn't present anything scientific either. And I don't stigmatize people for seeking help. I am skeptical if medications help because I haven't seen them work for the several people I know who tried them.
- _y5hn 5y ago
  Anti-psychotic drugs helped stabilize someone I know. It did matter to find the right drug, and nothing else helped. So there, one anecdote vs. another. I do agree with the general sentiment, though that has to do with the rulers of this world (not politicians).
  - pdimitar 5y ago
    Yeah, I don't disagree at all. In fact I was on CBD for a while and it really did help me to almost eliminate my anxiety. And yep, my beef with psychiatric chemical help is exactly that: I want to see more will to repair the system and not treat more and more patients.
OtomotO 5y ago
On the contrary, blindly believing (not knowing) is unscientific in any and all regards. I too saw people taking pills and becoming "robots" in the methaphoric sense. They were dull and not themselves, "just" without suicidal tendencies. It was absolutely devastating to live under a roof with them. When I got a major depression, a decade back, I decided that I will not take any meds, because I'd rather die the person I was, than live on as an empty shell. Did that mean I didn't get help? Hell no!
- IAmEveryone 5y ago
  > I too saw people taking pills and becoming "robots" in the methaphoric sense. No, you didn’t. That sort of effect does happen with antipsychotics. The effects of antidepressants are as different from those as Aspirin.
  - OtomotO 5y ago
    I didn't specify which kind of pills they took, did I? A small hint: never tell anyone what they experienced, unless you were there or you're a godlike creature. Edit: I asked again which pills, it was anti depressants. It was half a lifetime ago, doesn't change my or their experience.

R0b0t1 5y ago

To offer some explanation in defense of this, though I can't cite it right now: There's two major tests for the efficacy of depression-treating drugs that I am aware of. One is a "willpower" test, which in one incarnation is attempting to drown a mouse. A compound more likely to be efficacious in humans if it makes a mouse attempt to swim longer before ultimately succumbing to exhaustion. Taken by itself this test seems promising, though one could argue it might blunt whatever mechanism makes you give up and try a different approach. The second is a bit worse, and done in humans. A compound more likely to be efficacious in humans at treating depression also seems to be effective at disrupting short and long term memory. So, they give the sample and a short term memory test and see how you do. If you do worse it is likely to treat depression. You will see, if you go back through past threads, people stating that their ADHD diagnosis was comorbid with or developed after a diagnosis of depression. It is extremely likely that they developed focus problems due to being treated with SSRIs.

pdimitar 5y ago
Glad that there are studies and inquiries. We desperately need them yesterday because the culture of "take the magic pill and let's pretend you're OK" is not helping anyone.
kens 5y ago
The Force Swim Test is a thing, but I'm extremely skeptical about your second claim.
refurb 5y ago
What? For humans they use validated depression surveys conducted by medical professionals. You can look it up in any of the drug labels. A 4-week study of inpatients meeting DSM-III-R criteria for MDD with melancholia utilizing Effexor in a range of 150 to 375 mg per day (divided in a three-times-a-day schedule) demonstrated superiority of Effexor over placebo based on the HAM-D-21 total score. The mean dose in completers was 350 mg per day (study 3). https://labeling.pfizer.com/showlabeling.aspx?id=100#section-14.1 https://labeling.pfizer.com/showlabeling.aspx?id=100#section...
- 5y ago

aogaili 5y ago

The point of medication is not to always numb your brain but temporary ease the pain until you can stand on your own feet again. When life goes so wrong for some people and their brain pain signal is so high that you can't even get out of bed, those medications help. It helps them to sleep and think less until they start to think correctly. The issue today, is that people are expected to be productive all the time despite the isolation, low wages, lack of ownership, purpose, meaning and the raising inequality. And it is often those who are perceptive enough that tend to suffer more. If you don't want medications, then people need to have enough safety net to be unproductive for at least 3 to 6 months with some basic care, and this is luxury few people have.

pdimitar 5y ago
I am not arguing with the desired outcome. But what I've seen more often than not is that people get addicted to the pills and never do stand on their own feet again. And I agree with your second paragraph completely. I am sick of society pretending that people are "sick". They are not. They are responding naturally to an increasingly hostile world.
- MisterBastahrd 5y ago
  I'm sick of people pretending that they know more about brain chemistry and human behavior than the thousands of professionals and the decades of research devoted to the topic, but here we are with your dismissive posts. Some people eventually get off the medications. Some can't function without them. Your attitude is akin to being upset because once a paraplegic is in a wheelchair that they never just get up and try to walk again.
  - pdimitar 5y ago
    I only see one upset person here and it's not me. It will help if you read more slowly and if you don't get outraged during the process. Then you'll see that not one thing you said was something that I claimed. I never said not even one of the things you claim that I did. A bit of a puzzling comment you posted, man. Another hint: those thousands of professionals have a perverse monetary incentive. Food for thought. Some do good; I've met a few. Many others simply look annoyed and just hand you a prescription. We should do something about the latter.

johncolanduoni 5y ago

I find it offensive when I see people assume that the only reason anybody takes psychoactive medication is to deceive themselves. I know people whose lives are much better on medication (and who see the world much more accurately than without it), I know people whose lives are worse. Are you so confident that you can decide for everybody else which group they fall into? The world and the people in it don’t exist to make clean narratives for others, whether you’re a drug company rep or anti-psychiatry.

pdimitar 5y ago
And where did I say that everyone is like this? Christ, people. You aren't necessary everywhere with your "actually" stuff. Chill. I'm sharing what I observe and what I find disturbing. You can just ignore it.
- johncolanduoni 5y ago
  > I'll join the chorus of the other sibling commenters here by expressing skepticism that any medication will at all help with anything. “at all help with anything” sounds pretty absolute to my ears, as does the wording in basically every other sentence in what you said, but I’m glad to be mistaken. Though I note the person you responded to barely mentioned medication, and you seemed to find it necessary to denounce it in the strongest terms in a reply…
  - pdimitar 5y ago
    Let me quote myself: > * Psychiatric medication often simply numbs your brain...* Notice the word "often". I'm not a 10-year old that claims that the 4-5 cases that I've witnessed represent the entire world and I'm getting tired of everybody here pretending that I'm some kind of monster. Or maybe you're projecting too much? Get off my back already. Read more slowly, don't get outraged, don't assume malice. Does wonders both to mental health and to the quality of online discussions.
    - johncolanduoni 5y ago

jaarse 5y ago

I really used to think this way as well, and was dead set against psychiatric medication. Unfortunately I have had multiple family members recently deal with crippling and harmful bouts of depression and extreme anxiety. They tried many things, but ultimately it was medication (not to remove the feelings, but just to help manage them) and long term counselling that helped things get better. The medication alone is not going to help. But when someone can’t even get out of bed, or ,eave the house, or is so sad that everything becomes a dark fog, I disagree that medication is not required. I’m now extremely grateful that I am in a position where I am able to afford it.

pdimitar 5y ago
Sure, they can be a good temporary crutch, I can see that. But are they addressing the root causes?
- jaarse 5y ago
  Think of it like any other type of medicine. I have blood pressure issues. I try to eat right, and exercise. I have my whole life. I practice meditation and slowing down and generally feel fairly stress free as well. I do this to address the “root” cause as you would put it. Unfortunately in this area I also need a little help from modern science, so I’m glad I have access to it.
  - pdimitar 5y ago
    I think of it exactly like you said. Apparently my root comment was worded in a way that people thought I'm sitting on an extreme. I really am not though.
    - dclowd9901 5y ago
      Your initial argument sits pretty squarely in a camp or class of person that dismisses medication for mental illness. If you meant mental health medications have been overprescribed I think I even take issue with that. Anyone who’s been in that world and has been on any kind of mental health medication knows it’s not usually the first pitch thrown by mental health professionals.

honkycat 5y ago

missedthecue 5y ago
"I think this a very evil, ignorant comment. Sincerely: You should be ashamed of yourself for posting this." This, among numerous other parts of your comment are in gross violation of HN rules, just for future reference
pdimitar 5y ago
- honkycat 5y ago
  - pdimitar 5y ago
    I said what I observed and it goes without saying that I haven't seen everything. And you... are only seeing what you want and need to argue with someone. I'm not your enemy here, get off my back already.
    - honkycat 5y ago
      No, this is what you said: > Psychiatric medication often simply numbs your brain so it stops being worried about things that legitimately and truly torment it. It reduces your sensitivity, it knocks off your normal brain chemicals balance, and it turns you into a robot. I've had a family member go through this a long time ago. It was soul-crushing watching them when I visited. They were almost turned to vegetables with chemical means. See, the problem with acting like you were trying to be reasonable and you "didn't mean it like that" is that I can go back to your post quote what you said. I didn't "misunderstand" and I did not "only see what I want." I am not going to accept your attempt to backpedal. You said what I pasted above. I thought it was an ignorant thing to say. I responded. > I'm not your enemy here You absolutely are. I care about what is TRUE. You lie and say ignorant things that conveniently align with your values and try to pass them off as wisdom. > get off my back already. I will leave you alone after this final response.

evocatus 5y ago

More pontification and intellectualization of matters that people have no first-hand experience of, as is HN's wont. As someone with over 20 years of mental health issues who refused medication for exactly the same reasons - "sucking it up," trying to address root causes, meditation, spirituality, exercise... ... none of it worked. You could easily spend a lifetime trying to "root cause" the source of your malady and return empty handed, as I have. When the bills need to get paid, and your options are psychological collapse or some chemical attenuation of your mental state, I think the choice is clear. I agree that it's sort of twisted that modern society is structured such that we need to constantly medicate ourselves to cope with day to day existence. Alas.

pdimitar 5y ago
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- akiselev 5y ago
  > I'll join the chorus of the other sibling commenters here by expressing skepticism that any medication will at all help with anything. (emphasis mine) Right there in the first line. "Any medication", "at all", and "with anything." Come on :)
- pfortuny 5y ago
  The way you wrote your first paragraph is, honestly, condescending, whether you intended it or not, and gives exactly that impression.
- SamoyedFurFluff 5y ago
  Maybe you should consider studying rhetoric when making positional statements in the future. It’s clear that your language is failing to fully encompass your position. I myself am very confused how I can take away skepticism that any medical will help at all as somehow having any nuance that medication might work.

rtpg 5y ago

You can't claim to be pro-science and then false-ly claim that psychiatric medication does nothing. Depression and ADHD are _extremely_ treatable through medication, just as examples. There are many studies around this topic, it is way more treatable than certain physical conditions. "Knocks off your normal brain chemicals" have you considered that some people's normal brain chemicals are not set up normally? Would you claim someone who is anemic taking iron supplements should stop cuz they're messing with that? Naturalistic arguments like this lead to many people having way too much skepticism for things that are easily treatable. It leads to people dying. You should be ashamed of spreading this kind of nonsense. EDIT: ADHD medication, when the right medication is given, has like 70% success rate at treating symptoms, and there's like 30% of people who express not just having symptoms reach manageable level, but total removal of all symptoms for their cases! Imagine if we had magical robot prosthetics indistinguishable from actual human limbs. That is what we have for certain mental illnesses, for some set of people.

pdimitar 5y ago
- rtpg 5y ago
  You are claiming that medication cannot help with issues (expressing skepticism). I'm sympathetic to what you are saying that external factors are definitely at play (of course they are, in a sense. Mental illness characterised by social interaction will depend on factors of those social interactions). But you're dismissing internal factors! For many mental illnesses, people are able to function on a day-to-day basis without treatment, but would feel better with proper treatment. And sometimes the cup overflows, and people suffer because of it. And people in the chorus of skepticism play into people not getting treatment.
  - pdimitar 5y ago
    Dude, I'm not dismissing anything. I just didn't want to write a book. :) But I can see that many misunderstood my intent, so likely my fault. All I was saying is that medication is over-represented. That was all really. I myself have been on CBD and it helped me. I know pills can be good temporary crutches. But IMO they are given away too quickly (anecdotal evidence) without much regard to what the person is actually going through. I'm obviously aware that what I observed is not 100% of the cases. Really not sure what made so many jump on me claiming that I over-generalized. I didn't. I'm on your side and on the side of many who are going through a rough patch, very much because half of my life was a rough patch. I'm all too aware. I was only saying that medication is a trigger-happy tactic (again in my statistically insignificant observations).

disabled 5y ago

> Luckily, all my friends are fellow techies who are upper-middle class, and can afford medication and therapy (and in one case, out-of-state long-term hospitalization.) But even with insurance, they're looking at many thousands of dollars of treatment. Please understand that I am not anti-psychiatry at all. Your kid and their friends are best doing intensive therapy, and if necessary, sessions twice per week, outpatient. That is their best bet, health-wise. Because of taking Pristiq (desvenlafaxine) [SNRI] and Rexulti (brexpiprazole) for severe depression, I literally have suffered the worst thing imaginable, a drug side effect known as *akathisia*. In no exaggeration, it is worse than death. You have to move constantly, but it does not relieve the terror that you go through. You cannot physically relax at all. Your mind can only think haunting and terrorizing thoughts. It feels like you have been doused in gasoline, lit on fire, and you have been locked in a coffin. You literally survive moment-by-moment not to kill yourself. By the way, it is gruesomely painful from a perceptual standpoint. One time, when I was extremely sick, I went to the hospital and I had no idea whatsoever when I went to the emergency room that I was in sepsis along with diabetic ketoacidosis, due to being in the throes of akathisia. If you have it severely, it can cause violence and suicide. I had it severely and it lasted for about a year. I have 2 rare immune-mediated neurological disease plus type 1 diabetes (autoimmune and insulin-dependent). I have been through really terrible things in my life due to my health but akathisia by far takes the cake. It is in no exaggeration worse than death. Watch this video, this is what it is like every single day you suffer with it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_iiy8ISvdY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_iiy8ISvdY This is a public PSA about akathisia: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VgvhAilA070 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VgvhAilA070 This is excerpts from Jordan Peterson (whom I do not agree with from a political standpoint) who is a psychologist who suffered from it due to benzodiazepines: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UIfllfH0k3I https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UIfllfH0k3I My story has a lot of parallels to this story: https://www.madinamerica.com/2021/06/boy-interrupted-a-story-of-akathisia/ https://www.madinamerica.com/2021/06/boy-interrupted-a-story... > It's past time the West reckons with our mental health crisis. Why is it that we're the wealthiest nations in the world, yet our kids are more stressed and depressed than kids in third-world countries? I think society will only become more and more unstable until we spend time seriously addressing that question and adjust our culture accordingly. Like what? Do what Russia (along with the entire USSR) along with former Yugoslavia did to political dissidents? Did you know that they used to put political dissidents in 4-point restraints and inject them repeatedly with Haldol, in order to induce severe akathisia as a torture method? If you did not appear "crazy" before coming in to some place like the Serbsky Institute in Moscow, you would appear absolutely "crazy" afterwards whenever you came out of there. Have a read: https://fromthetrenchesworldreport.com/soviet-psychiatric-drug-for-dissidents-given-to-us-patients/74782 https://fromthetrenchesworldreport.com/soviet-psychiatric-dr... Also this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_abuse_of_psychiatry_in_the_Soviet_Union https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_abuse_of_psychiatry_... And just FYI, this effectively happened to me in America (although clearly I was not a political dissident). I got picked up by the police due to severe akathisia. I was forced to go to a medical hospital for "observation". I told the nurses that I could not have antipsychotics (which they give for agitation--although akathisia makes you extremely agitated) due to it invoking the akathisia and making it worse. About a week prior to this happening, I had just been diagnosed with akathisia. My world-renowned neurologist in movement disorders put a bunch of allergies in my medical record, including Haldol which he noted the reaction as "Akathisia". However, this particular hospital did not have access to my medical records (thank you "free market"). The nurses said that it was just an "adverse reaction" and therefore I was to receive it. They forced drugged me with antipsychotics and I had to move nonstop and I went really crazy. I was put in 4 point restraints and I was going so crazy that now I even know how to get those things off when they tie them extremely tightly. Anyways, that was the last straw for me when it came to staying in the United States. I am a Croatian (European Union) citizen so I can live abroad in Europe. Nothing will convince me to live in the United States, even though I have been an American citizen my entire life. It is no longer my homeland. And just FYI, Russia Today did a whole propaganda documentary about people who ended up with akathisia (pretty much all of the people profiled in the documentary had it) consisting of Americans taking a bunch of pills. It is called OverPill: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5722_XclQkY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5722_XclQkY

dclowd9901 5y ago

Literally your entire brain functions on trading of chemicals. There is no such thing as “a thought” without the chemicals in your brain producing it. What you describe as “numbness” seems to be your discomfort with a person’s personality changing in front of you… _for their benefit_. As someone who’s long differed from anxiety and depression, I had your mindset at one point. It wasn’t until I started trying medication that I could start evaluating my life in a more objective manner, without the chemicals in my brain discoloring every thought. Now I don’t even need medication, but I am certainly a different person. Medication helped me choose a better life for myself.

pdimitar 5y ago
You know what's extremely puzzling to me? That you think I disagree with you. I don't. I completely agree in fact.

IAmEveryone 5y ago

That’s just a bunch of kitchen psychology not even on the level of 19th century Freudian psychoanalysis. You’re starting from a very specific worldview—the puritanical tradition where those upholding a certain set of virtues (industriousness, tolerance to pain, etc) will be richly rewarded (on earth or later) and, conversely, any suffering can be traced back to individual faults. That mindset cannot survive contact with even trace amounts of actual data where, time and time again, medication does make a difference, although that difference remains frustratingly smaller than for other diseases. But it isn’t ‘numbing” of “fake” any more than antibiotics are. You seem to believe antidepressants are like uppers or downers where you chuck a handful and ten minutes later you feel a wave of happiness roll over you. Here’s a secret: take a few of those pills and you will feel… absolutely nothing. Anti-depressants do not produce a “high” in any sense of the word. Changes in mood take months to appear and are usually not even recognized by the patient. It’s their friends who tend to notice it first.

DeadReckoning 5y ago

I did a zoom call with a psychiatrist and got Prozac and propranolol within an hour. Amazed at how easy the process is now with telemedicine and how helpful the right medications are. I wish I hadn’t tried to “tough it out” for so long and being scared away from medication after hearing things like they would numb you or make you feel like a robot. I don’t feel that way at all now that I’ve experienced a number of these medications firsthand.

codingdave 5y ago

> Doing all this does NOT solve the underlying problems that make people reach for suicide. But it gives you time to teach teens coping skills, ingrain healthy habits, and get them through some of the tough teenage years, so you can then back down on meds when they are in a better place, with a better toolkit, to create adults who want to live. I agree the meds are not the best answer in all cases. And there is nothing wrong with discussing their negative aspects. But that doesn't mean they don't serve a purpose in some cases. Especially cases where it truly is a chemical imbalance causing the depression. Which may be more cases than you realize.

mistermann 5y ago
> But it gives you time to teach teens coping skills, ingrain healthy habits, and get them through some of the tough teenage years, so you can then back down on meds when they are in a better place, with a better toolkit, to create adults who want to live. From my perspective, the point of contention is whether we are doing this to a satisfactory level, or even "seriously" trying to. Like, what can we point to as humanity seriously trying, with the same seriousness we devote to other endeavours?

Dumblydorr 5y ago

Are you a psychiatrist, psychologist, or mental health expert? The "shouting away" may be caused by non-experts such as yourself thinking your notions are worth more than MDs, who have trained an additional 7+ years than you to become experts in treatment of suicidality.

dang 5y ago

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29859909 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29859909.