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One of the things they told us in infantry school was, "if you get shot, don't die", meaning: don't immediately think that you're dead, because experience has s
by neurobashing 5y ago
One of the things they told us in infantry school was, "if you get shot, don't die", meaning: don't immediately think that you're dead, because experience has shown that you might actually die from a survivable wound if you _think_ you're a goner.
- rob_c 5y agoI've heard that a few times. I wonder what the stats on the effectiveness of that are (the military tends to be great for record keeping)
- watwut 5y agoI doubt they are able to accurately measure mental state of wounded soldiers in the middle of fight. And keep track of those records.
- samstave 5y agoI'm mostly talking out my ass on this one, but thought I would share... My brother is a doctor (CMO of the largest health system in a state, he was previously head of the Veterans administration for said state, Commander of the 10th medical wing in the USAF (he's a ret. Colonel - gave up the General track) , personal flight surgeon to the joint chiefs at the dod... etc...) I asked him recently about covid related use of the ICU rooms at his facility... and I was stunned that he answered that "we don't keep records of that" I had been asking about who was vaxxed and not - and he said that he had several people who were vaxxed and got covid and also died, the youngest being 30, who was vaxxed but also one of his employees at the hospital. The point though is just how much I was surprised at the statement that they aren't keeping records.... He was a field surgeon in Iraq, but I haven't talked to him about that experience much...
- watwut 5y agoI find that odd. Here they do track covid ICU nationally and covid even have them separated (they don't mix covid patients with car crashes). The lockdown was because capacities were getting full. And they also know who is vaccinated, so the general claim doctors were saying was that vaccinated seldom end up in ICU and very rarely die. Most in serious condition are unvaccinated. Causes of death tend to be tracked on national level too. It might be that hospital does not care, but death certificates for all kinda of stuff should be written somewhere.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- iak8god 5y ago> I asked him recently about covid related use of the ICU rooms at his facility... and I was stunned that he answered that "we don't keep records of that" What your brother means is that he hasn't encountered a medical or financial reason to request those reports run yet. The data is 100% being collected.
- samstave 5y agoobv... I cant give up too many more details than this, but still -- I can see through it... lots of reasons I can't say... (I fucking got cease-and-desisted in the past based on comments here...)
- mh- 5y ago> cease-and-desisted by your brother?
- samstave 5y agoI revealed how many cities in the US mandate and monitor every actions of your vehicle around certain buildings and require said buildings/companies to report the traffic around them... but I was more specific because I know which buildings and which cameras... because I designed some of them..... So yeah.
- ErikVandeWater 5y agoMaybe they just want you to avoid being a distraction to other soldiers in the heat of battle. Crying out for your mother can't be good for morale.
- mellavora 5y agoNo, from what I've read, the problem was the reverse. SOP is if you are shot, first, don't die, second, get evacuated back to medical care. because soldiers were taking survivable hits, but staying on with their buddies in the firefight while slowly bleeding out until the hit became much less survivable.
- AlgorithmicTime 5y ago
- goodlinks 5y agoSimilar thing taught for offshor survival training in the north sea. If you give up you are a gonner if you dont you may make it, and everyone who has survived had a determination to struggle on even when it looked bleak (i think the stats say something like if you are not out of the water in 5 mins you are unlikely to survive - even with a survival suit.) They show videos of people passing out as they are airlifted out of the sea too and falling out of the sling. or passing out and drowning when they see the helicopter overhead - assuming that they dont need to fight any more.
- 1_player 5y agoReminds me of the documentary film Last Breath, telling the story of deep sea diver Chris Lemons.
- oh_sigh 5y agoMaybe the documentary tells more, but I just read a bbc piece on him and it seems like he gave up: > He remembered: "I think once I accepted there was no hope of survival, I was powerless to do anything to save myself. A quiet resignation came over me." https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-47826802 https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetl...
- 1_player 5y agoIn that case it seems giving up instead of panicking might save what precious little oxygen you have left.
- eitland 5y ago> i think the stats say something like if you are not out of the water in 5 mins you are unlikely to survive - even with a survival suit. Obviously take those statistics with a grain of salt. According to some stats you can survive one minute in icy water. Yet many people enjoy swimming in the ice, including some who can stay in the icy water for 15 minutes or more just for kicks.
- manatbar384 5y agoI read this as infant School meaning I thought you meant like primary school. Was wondering wtf how intense is your junior curriculum?!
- warsoco 5y agolol same
- adolph 5y agoIt's an important part of the Active Shooter workshops taught in most schools and workplaces but it isn't tested very often.
- drcongo 5y agoStandard for American schools.
- avgcorrection 5y agoThat’s just the newfangled word for preparatory pre-kindergarten.
- EamonnMR 5y agoLiteral survivorship bias?
- kodah 5y agoThat's also why we separate bodies into different categories during a mass casualty event. If someone who was shot sees the body of someone missing multiple appendages, they can go downhill real fast.
- mellavora 5y agoI saw an interesting stat on this, in an article looking at 'which bullet caliber has the most stopping power' by looking at data from real shooting incidents (mostly police records). If I remember right, the conclusion was that 50% of the time, it didn't matter what the caliber was. The person got hit, realized they'd been shot, thought they were supposed to fall down, and then did. The other 50% did come down to the bullet caliber, lining up pretty much as you'd expect, along with some interesting stories of people who took mortal wounds from high-caliber rounds and kept fighting for a few minutes.
- pengaru 5y ago> 50% of the time, it didn't matter what the caliber was. The person got hit, realized they'd been shot, thought they were supposed to fall down, and then did Something that surprised me when watching the NZ masque terrorism shooter's first-person video was how uniformly everyone shot immediately collapsed. It looked fake like a Hollywood movie, except it was real. I have no firsthand experience with people being shot, but based on that particular footage my impression is people tend to go down hard immediately.
- mediocregopher 5y agoI'd like to think I'm someone who would fight to live, as is being discussed in this thread. But at the same time, in a situation like that where I'm completely unprepared to be shot at, I think immediately collapsing is probably the right strategy. If I keep struggling to escape I'm just gonna get shot again.
- sekh60 5y agoI am thinking back to the quote from Dune: "you've heard of animals chewing off a leg to escape a trap. there's an animal kind of trick. a human would remain in the trap endure the pain feigning death that he might kill the trapper and remove a threat to his kind."
- pengaru 5y ago> But at the same time, in a situation like that where I'm completely unprepared to be shot at, I think immediately collapsing is probably the right strategy. If I keep struggling to escape I'm just gonna get shot again. In the video the shooter fires repeatedly into the piles of collapsed bodies, and there's a disturbing lack of reactions. Folks survived but I suspect most of those were just lucky to be shielded by others who weren't so lucky.
- 2OEH8eoCRo0 5y agoWe were training with simunition (paint rounds) and were told something similar. They said that if you're hit with sim rounds ignore it because if you fall down when you're hit in training you'll instinctively fall down when hit with real rounds. Ten minutes later I was the point man while pushing upstairs and must have been hit about 10 times and I ignored it like Superman.
- rpmisms 5y agoSim rounds hurt, too. I think they should be more common as a training tool, because they hurt more than actually getting shot.
- eitland 5y agoWe were taught: never ever say someone is not going to make it. The hearing can work even if no other senses work they told us and if I understood it correctly they meant these words could make the wounded person give up.
- redanddead 5y agoWow... I mean armed forces all over the world recognize the concept of morale. I feel like there are aspects of that that we miss out on in everyday life, like in the media for example, concepts like "doom scrolling", and constant focus on bad news. I don't know
- laurent92 5y agoAt the same time, I find cruel to tell a guy who’s dying that he’s going to make it. Also, often, not listen to his last wills “because he’s gonna make it”. Sometimes you just would like to go in peace, tell the good old stories, and say “That was a nice life. Thanks.”
- iSnow 5y agoI suspect the background is that the others do not want to face the death of one of their pals. Without some evidence, I doubt someone unconscious would die from a "he ain't gonna make it" - it's at least as likely his mates want to do something positive. Kind of a superstition that if they give him up, he'll die.
- amelius 5y agoPlacebo effect is stronger than most people think, also works the other way.
- dathinab 5y agoThe is a reason why alternative medicine can be so (monetary, coverage, less healing wise) successful.
- t8y 5y agoIt could be other things though. Perhaps those that think they are going to die have reacted badly to injuries in the past, they are subconsciously aware that the injury is more serious to them than someone else (or that the injury is more serious than it seems). A over the top example is people that eat peanuts and think they are going to die are more likely to die and instead of attributing this to them having a deadly allergy saying it's because they thought they were going to die.
- BizarroLand 5y agoMy mom is a nurse and when she worked Gerontology she said the #1 predictor of a bed opening up on their ward was a family member coming in and telling their sick relative that it was, "Okay to let go". We think we are being kind but it's the kindness of talking someone into jumping off a cliff instead of trying to climb back down. If you want your family members to have the best chance of coming home, tell them that you are not ready for them to go and that you still need them.
- spbaar 5y agoHm, i was recently in a hospital room reading the pamphlets for grieving and soon to be grieving relatives and the "okay to let go" verbiage was actually recommended, although it was more directed at the family. It said it was much more common for family to be in denial, so please consult your doctor before saying goodbye i guess.
- Nosvenic 5y agoWhile this is true, life at all costs is NOT always the best answer, and begging someone to hold on when they're ready for death is incredibly tragic and a little selfish on the part of the family IMO. My grandpa has been clinging to life for the past couple of years for the benefit of his son despite the fact that he clearly doesn't fully exist on this plane anymore, and it's hard for me to watch. When I'm his age, I hope I'm surrounded by people that understand me enough to let me go when the time comes.
- cnasc 5y ago> she said the #1 predictor of a bed opening up on their ward was a family member coming in and telling their sick relative that it was, "Okay to let go". Wouldn’t that be because people are unlikely to say that except in the most dire circumstances?
- BizarroLand 5y agoNope! A lot of generally healthy elderly people who had a broken bone or a normal surgery that resulted in a few days in-care and then catch a flu or pneumonia and would be visited by their families in the process.| This is a risky state, as multiple concurrent issues increases fatalities. They already have their age, the surgery to heal from, and then throw a common infection on top of it all? You're in a red zone for survival at that point, but it's common enough and the fatalities are very low at that point unless you add in the secret ingredient. That ingredient being a beloved family member that doesn't tend to make histrionics out of small crises, the calm and caring one of the family, you know? When that person tells you how they want you to stay but "if you need to go then go", tearfully bidding you adieu? That's a straight up death sentence. If your elderly family member is in a tight spot but has a decent life waiting on them to recover? Don't tell them it's okay to go. Tell them to fight like they're the third monkey on the ramp of Noah's Ark and it's starting to rain. Then again, if they have severe issues, will never be outside of the institution again, they only have Jello night on Tuesdays to look forward to for the rest of their drooling, senile, smelly, miserable, and unfathomably uncomfortable lives, then that is when you tell them it's okay to go because literally nothing is better than where they will be if they survive.