7 ms·

We definitely want to help you resolve these issues. Most of them sound like specific compatibility challenges on Ubuntu 21.10. To be clear, I agree that we n

by nrp 5y ago

We definitely want to help you resolve these issues. Most of them sound like specific compatibility challenges on Ubuntu 21.10. To be clear, I agree that we need to get better with new Ubuntu releases. We've been providing hardware to the team at Fedora and have full support out of the box with Fedora 35, but don't have a setup like that with Ubuntu yet. In the meantime, we've been recommending Ubuntu 21.04 because it does have full support and good stability with all updates applied: https://community.frame.work/t/ubuntu-21-04-on-the-framework-laptop/2722 https://community.frame.work/t/ubuntu-21-04-on-the-framework...

smeej 5y ago
I am running 21.04. All these problems are occurring on 21.04.
- nrp 5y ago
  In that case, we definitely want to understand what is occurring, because that is pretty unusual. I would recommend either commenting in the 21.04 thread or creating a new thread in our Linux sub-forum on this, so that both us and members of the community can help debug this: https://community.frame.work/t/ubuntu-21-04-on-the-framework-laptop/2722/131 https://community.frame.work/t/ubuntu-21-04-on-the-framework...
  - torstenvl 5y ago
    Hey. I don't have a Framework and I'm not in the market soon, so I'm not particularly invested in the underlying specifics here, but... As a general matter, I have seen this kind of sentiment a lot, and I don't think it's particularly helpful. This subthread OP clearly feels let down and potentially betrayed. Why would you respond by suggesting that the conversation goes private onto a forum Framework controls? Shifting the forum of the discussion to a place where one party has more power seems inherently questionable. I say that even though I have no reason to believe you all would do anything inappropriate, and my general view of your project is highly positive.
    - kadoban 5y ago
      I suspect HN isn't a very good place for a back-and-forth on debugging issues like this. If nothing else, HN has a reply depth limit that will be hit pretty quick.
    - BiteCode_dev 5y ago
      I agree with the sentiment, but they cannot provide assistance on HN either, it's not a good fit. At this point, when a client of mine that is technically litterate has such a bad experience, I pay them a visit. They would probably learn a ton by having the setup at hand.
    - fsflover 5y ago
      > by suggesting that the conversation goes private onto a forum Framework controls AFAIK it will not go private, it will still be available for everyone to follow. HN is not exactly convenient place for user support (unless it's Google or Apple).
    - mrtweetyhack 5y ago
  - pdabbadabba 5y ago
    I want Framework to succeed (and, in fact, had strongly considered becoming a customer) so its out of love that I say: it's this reply just as much as the original post that convinces me never to buy a Framework laptop. OP describes numerous major issues with the laptop and calls it one of the worst purchases he has ever made (and it wasn't a small purchase) and you...direct him to an internet forum for help troubleshooting??? If I were the original poster, I'd be furious. Given all the very positive press out there about Framework products, and the forum where this conversation is happening, I would have expected an answer more along the lines of: "your experience is unacceptable to us. Let us send you a box to return the laptop for an exchange or a full refund." I realize that this might be more appropriate for a private communication with he customer, rather than a public HN post. Maybe you've done that. I have no way of knowing. But from what I can see, it seems like OP is being told that its on him to figure out how to fix a laptop that he just paid $1,600(?) for and that, from the sound of it, never worked properly. I get that this product is aimed at folks who aren't afraid to get their hands dirty. But I would not have expected that to mean a customer would be relegated to the forums to address such major issues. The fact that some of your employees may help him do this on the forums is very cold comfort. It is still going to burn up a lot of the customer's time. Edit -- Just to refine my thoughts here: it's not a bad thing that Framework has an active forum that can help a customer resolve issues like this, nor is it a bad thing to invite a customer to participate there if they want to. On the contrary: that's all to the good. At the same time, though, I'd expect a company like Framework to evince a greater sense of their own ownership of the customer's problems, rather than exclusively suggesting ways that the customer can find a fix for themselves.
    - throwaway27727 5y ago
      I would assume that OP would have the option of returning if he so desired, without that needing to be pointed out in a public thread.
      - pdabbadabba 5y ago
        One would think. But, as a prospective customer, the posts on this thread give me some information about what kind of response I can expect if I have my own problems with their product. (Especially if they crop up after the close of the return window, etc.)
  - smeej 5y ago
    I will try to do this as soon as I have the time. But time is the main reason I bought the machine in the first place. Reviews about Ubuntu support were glowing. Linux support was touted in the website significantly. I'm really not trying to do anything extraordinary with the machine, so I thought it would be better just to spend the money and get one that works than it has been trying to do things like run Lubuntu on my old Chromebook Pixel. I'm doing basic things like research things in a web browser, scan documents with xsane, or occasionally record audio in Audacity. I'm not trying to do anything extraordinary or complicated. I just wanted a machine that would do those things without tracking me everywhere (Windows) and where I could fix pieces rather than having to replace the whole device if something broke or wore out. I paid more than twice as much as I ever have for a computer so that I would NOT have to help you develop the product, do quality control, or troubleshoot it. I wanted it to be ready to use for my run-of-the-mill needs. And it wasn't, and that's why I wrote this review here.
    - aksss 5y ago
      > time is the main reason If time is your valuable commodity then buying a first gen "revolutionary" product was never going to be a good move. In your case, buying "known good" was the direction you should have gone and let others cut themselves and bleed out on the edge. Sorry for your bad experience, chalk it up to lessons learned. It's ever the case with tech: the vision is far, far ahead of reality.
      - smeej 5y ago
        If it hadn't been for the glowing reviews of how seamlessly it supported Linux, and the suggestions if not outright claims on the website that it was designed with Linux support in mind, I wouldn't have. It doesn't sound ridiculous to me that someone might decide to target the Linux market really well even though others haven't. I had hoped that was what had happened. Maybe I wanted to believe it more than I should have believed it. But that's the motivation behind my posting here, to save anyone from making the same mistake. I have a $1700 paperweight. Oh well. But that doesn't mean I want anyone else to make the same mistake.
    - 5y ago
hansel_der 5y ago
really curios if there is ANY overlap of your target audience and fedora users. i mean, for a top-down approach i would probably also choose redhat because they seem to have structures for a streamlined b2b communication and commitment, but on the other hand i absolutely know nobody who uses it apart from the odd researcher and enterprise-it guys.
- krn 5y ago
  > really curios if there is ANY overlap of your target audience and fedora users. I believe it's the other way around: no other Linux distribution has a higher overlap with the target market of the Framework Laptop than Fedora. Because unlike Ubuntu, Fedora Workstation has been specifically design for developers, hobbyists, and early adopters[1]. Personally, I only recommend and install Ubuntu for non-technical people, who don't need or care about always having the most modern OS features. [1] https://getfedora.org/en/workstation/ https://getfedora.org/en/workstation/
  - plokiju 5y ago
    I’m a developer who’s pretty much always used Ubuntu, and haven't bothered digging too deep into other distros. What are the modern features I’m missing?
    - krn 5y ago
      To put it simply: most things that you are enjoying in Ubuntu now first showed up in Fedora months or even years ago.
      - OnlineGladiator 5y ago
        What does Fedora currently have that Ubuntu is missing?
        Mikeb85 5y ago
        Fedora just gets everything sooner. Newer kernels, gnome, packages. But it's still rock solid because of Red Hat/IBM.

by nrp 5y ago

smeej 5y ago

I am running 21.04. All these problems are occurring on 21.04.

nrp 5y ago
In that case, we definitely want to understand what is occurring, because that is pretty unusual. I would recommend either commenting in the 21.04 thread or creating a new thread in our Linux sub-forum on this, so that both us and members of the community can help debug this: https://community.frame.work/t/ubuntu-21-04-on-the-framework-laptop/2722/131 https://community.frame.work/t/ubuntu-21-04-on-the-framework...
- torstenvl 5y ago
  Hey. I don't have a Framework and I'm not in the market soon, so I'm not particularly invested in the underlying specifics here, but... As a general matter, I have seen this kind of sentiment a lot, and I don't think it's particularly helpful. This subthread OP clearly feels let down and potentially betrayed. Why would you respond by suggesting that the conversation goes private onto a forum Framework controls? Shifting the forum of the discussion to a place where one party has more power seems inherently questionable. I say that even though I have no reason to believe you all would do anything inappropriate, and my general view of your project is highly positive.
  - kadoban 5y ago
    I suspect HN isn't a very good place for a back-and-forth on debugging issues like this. If nothing else, HN has a reply depth limit that will be hit pretty quick.
  - BiteCode_dev 5y ago
    I agree with the sentiment, but they cannot provide assistance on HN either, it's not a good fit. At this point, when a client of mine that is technically litterate has such a bad experience, I pay them a visit. They would probably learn a ton by having the setup at hand.
  - fsflover 5y ago
    > by suggesting that the conversation goes private onto a forum Framework controls AFAIK it will not go private, it will still be available for everyone to follow. HN is not exactly convenient place for user support (unless it's Google or Apple).
  - mrtweetyhack 5y ago
- pdabbadabba 5y ago
  I want Framework to succeed (and, in fact, had strongly considered becoming a customer) so its out of love that I say: it's this reply just as much as the original post that convinces me never to buy a Framework laptop. OP describes numerous major issues with the laptop and calls it one of the worst purchases he has ever made (and it wasn't a small purchase) and you...direct him to an internet forum for help troubleshooting??? If I were the original poster, I'd be furious. Given all the very positive press out there about Framework products, and the forum where this conversation is happening, I would have expected an answer more along the lines of: "your experience is unacceptable to us. Let us send you a box to return the laptop for an exchange or a full refund." I realize that this might be more appropriate for a private communication with he customer, rather than a public HN post. Maybe you've done that. I have no way of knowing. But from what I can see, it seems like OP is being told that its on him to figure out how to fix a laptop that he just paid $1,600(?) for and that, from the sound of it, never worked properly. I get that this product is aimed at folks who aren't afraid to get their hands dirty. But I would not have expected that to mean a customer would be relegated to the forums to address such major issues. The fact that some of your employees may help him do this on the forums is very cold comfort. It is still going to burn up a lot of the customer's time. Edit -- Just to refine my thoughts here: it's not a bad thing that Framework has an active forum that can help a customer resolve issues like this, nor is it a bad thing to invite a customer to participate there if they want to. On the contrary: that's all to the good. At the same time, though, I'd expect a company like Framework to evince a greater sense of their own ownership of the customer's problems, rather than exclusively suggesting ways that the customer can find a fix for themselves.
  - throwaway27727 5y ago
    I would assume that OP would have the option of returning if he so desired, without that needing to be pointed out in a public thread.
    - pdabbadabba 5y ago
      One would think. But, as a prospective customer, the posts on this thread give me some information about what kind of response I can expect if I have my own problems with their product. (Especially if they crop up after the close of the return window, etc.)
- smeej 5y ago
  I will try to do this as soon as I have the time. But time is the main reason I bought the machine in the first place. Reviews about Ubuntu support were glowing. Linux support was touted in the website significantly. I'm really not trying to do anything extraordinary with the machine, so I thought it would be better just to spend the money and get one that works than it has been trying to do things like run Lubuntu on my old Chromebook Pixel. I'm doing basic things like research things in a web browser, scan documents with xsane, or occasionally record audio in Audacity. I'm not trying to do anything extraordinary or complicated. I just wanted a machine that would do those things without tracking me everywhere (Windows) and where I could fix pieces rather than having to replace the whole device if something broke or wore out. I paid more than twice as much as I ever have for a computer so that I would NOT have to help you develop the product, do quality control, or troubleshoot it. I wanted it to be ready to use for my run-of-the-mill needs. And it wasn't, and that's why I wrote this review here.
  - aksss 5y ago
    > time is the main reason If time is your valuable commodity then buying a first gen "revolutionary" product was never going to be a good move. In your case, buying "known good" was the direction you should have gone and let others cut themselves and bleed out on the edge. Sorry for your bad experience, chalk it up to lessons learned. It's ever the case with tech: the vision is far, far ahead of reality.
    - smeej 5y ago
      If it hadn't been for the glowing reviews of how seamlessly it supported Linux, and the suggestions if not outright claims on the website that it was designed with Linux support in mind, I wouldn't have. It doesn't sound ridiculous to me that someone might decide to target the Linux market really well even though others haven't. I had hoped that was what had happened. Maybe I wanted to believe it more than I should have believed it. But that's the motivation behind my posting here, to save anyone from making the same mistake. I have a $1700 paperweight. Oh well. But that doesn't mean I want anyone else to make the same mistake.
  - 5y ago

hansel_der 5y ago

really curios if there is ANY overlap of your target audience and fedora users. i mean, for a top-down approach i would probably also choose redhat because they seem to have structures for a streamlined b2b communication and commitment, but on the other hand i absolutely know nobody who uses it apart from the odd researcher and enterprise-it guys.

krn 5y ago
> really curios if there is ANY overlap of your target audience and fedora users. I believe it's the other way around: no other Linux distribution has a higher overlap with the target market of the Framework Laptop than Fedora. Because unlike Ubuntu, Fedora Workstation has been specifically design for developers, hobbyists, and early adopters[1]. Personally, I only recommend and install Ubuntu for non-technical people, who don't need or care about always having the most modern OS features. [1] https://getfedora.org/en/workstation/ https://getfedora.org/en/workstation/
- plokiju 5y ago
  I’m a developer who’s pretty much always used Ubuntu, and haven't bothered digging too deep into other distros. What are the modern features I’m missing?
  - krn 5y ago
    To put it simply: most things that you are enjoying in Ubuntu now first showed up in Fedora months or even years ago.
    - OnlineGladiator 5y ago
      What does Fedora currently have that Ubuntu is missing?
      - Mikeb85 5y ago
        Fedora just gets everything sooner. Newer kernels, gnome, packages. But it's still rock solid because of Red Hat/IBM.