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Intel claims new i9 is faster than M1 Max
- newlisp 5y agoBut with the price of an i9 I can buy a whole computer (a macbook air). Even if it's much faster is going to be a hard sell for most.
- yobert 5y agoA flagship i9-12900K desktop processor is $618 right now on Newegg. Seems pretty reasonable to me!
- zepto 5y agoHere is the claim: “Intel announces the 12th Gen Intel® Core™ family of mobile processors led by the launch of new H-series mobile processors featuring the flagship Intel® Core™ i9-12900HK – the fastest mobile processor ever [1]“ “[1] Based on superior performance of 12th Gen Intel Core i9 12900HK against Intel Core i9 11980HK, AMD Ryzen 9 5900HX, and Apple M1 Max. Intel processor performance is estimated based on measurements with Intel Reference Validation Platforms. AMD processor performance is estimated based on measurements on a Lenovo Legion R9000K with RTX 3080. Apple M1 Max performance is estimated based on public statement made by Apple on 10/18/2021 and measurements on Apple M1 Max 16” 64GB RAM Model A2485. Best available compilers selected for all processors. Binaries compiled with ICC for Intel/AMD, binaries compiled with Xcode 13.1 for Apple. The metric used is the geometric mean of an n-copy SPECrate run of the C/C++ integer benchmarks in SPEC CPU 2017. See www.intel.com/PerformanceIndex for additional workload and configuration details. Results may vary. Other names and brands may be claimed as the property of others.”
- doctorshady 5y agoWhile I love C/C++, I thought the M1 family was specifically optimized for higher level languages?
- wahern 5y agoMaybe you're thinking of FJCVTZS, which is intended to accelerate a common operation in JavaScript engines? That's not unique to M1, though; rather added to a relatively recent ARM ISA revision. See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25422168 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25422168 I think there may be other optimizations related to Apple's reference counting and type tagging models for Objective-C and Swift.
- speed_spread 5y agoFJCVTZS I read that out loud, thinking I was back at the optometrist.
- spicybright 5y agoI'm still squinting...
- bee_rider 5y agoHey I recognize this Strongbad song. Everybody to the limit! The cheat is to the limit! Everybody FJCVTZS!
- wmf 5y agoThat's kind of a myth and it's basically impossible to design a processor that runs high-level code faster than low-level code.
- zepto 5y agoTrue, but it’s not impossible to design a processor that is much faster at running high level code in certain languages a lot faster than another processor that is roughly equivalent at running low level code.
- StringyBob 5y agoI wonder if the xcode binaries are compiled for Arm or x86_64 via Rosetta emulation - and how much difference that makes to performance and efficiency?
- spurgu 5y agoI believe it when I see it. At least watt for watt I have some serious doubts.
- MBCook 5y agoThat was always the biggest issue. It’s not hard to outperform an M1 Max. Just use a ton of cores and high frequencies. But that uses a ton of battery and puts off a ton of heat. That’s my favorite thing about my M1 Mac. It has no fan, doesn’t get hot, has TONS of battery, and still performs well. If Intel can match/beat Apple at similar power/thermal levels THATS an achievement.
- daviddever23box 5y agoRight - show me an ambiently-cooled Intel laptop with the same performance as a MacBook Air M1, available for purchase in the market, metric-for-metric. It doesn’t exist.
- MBCook 5y agoBased on Intel’s graph it looks like they be able to beat the M1 Max in performance at 35 watts. And that would be great. But laptops shouldn’t need to draw 35 watts minimum. If it can’t scale down when idle I think I’d pass.
- howdydoo 5y agoI have an i9-12900K (same gen desktop chip) that is self-reporting ~15W idle. I would be pretty surprised if their mobile chip didn't scale lower than that.
- MBCook 5y agoI was going off the slide shown on this tweet: https://twitter.com/tomwarren/status/1478514671980269574 https://twitter.com/tomwarren/status/1478514671980269574 It doesn’t show the new Intel processors going below about 30 watts. Then again I kind of doubt the M1 Max chips can’t get below 20 W.
- daviddever23box 5y agoIt might be faster in some areas, but not in all, and certainly not at the same power budget. Marketers gotta market, though.
- loeg 5y agoIntel are in fact claiming better performance per watt.
- schappim 5y agoBut at what thermal, power and monetary price? Edit: @deepnotderp[1] found the power adjusted basis: https://mobile.twitter.com/witeken/status/1478441037416828932/photo/1 https://mobile.twitter.com/witeken/status/147844103741682893... [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29802359#29803502 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29802359#29803502
- artursapek 5y agoExactly. The M1 is awesome not because of raw horsepower, but because of efficiency.
- Aperocky 5y agoI love my fanless M1 Air primarily because it's fanless. The 14" pro looks great, but can anyone using it tell me whether the fan ever turns on?
- thebean11 5y agoI have the 16" which has slightly better thermals. When it's in clamshell mode and I'm doing heavy stuff (maybe a zoom call + big compilation + running a few local services) I can feel a tiny bit of warm air coming out. Can't hear anything though.
- dghlsakjg 5y agoGreat to hear! I have an i7 16" intel and maxing out a single core will spin up the fans in short order. Maxing out multiple cores is kind of absurd how much noise and throttling happens
- Gigachad 5y agoI have the 2020 pro and I have only heard the fan once and that was when a compile bugged out and got stuck. Otherwise I don’t even hear the fan while gaming.
- avidphantasm 5y ago
- deepnotderp 5y agoTo all the commenters: This is claimed on a power adjusted basis: https://mobile.twitter.com/witeken/status/1478441037416828932/photo/1 https://mobile.twitter.com/witeken/status/147844103741682893...
- fouc 5y agoIf I'm reading this right, it's saying that when M1 Max is at peak performance (at 35W), the I9-12900HK is beating this performance while at the same wattage. I'm a bit skeptical this is true
- RototRobot 5y agoIt really wouldn't make any sense if it weren't? as by raw power the previous gen was already more powerful right?
- ksec 5y ago1. This is a slide from Intel. And they dont mention what sort of performance. Edit [1] 2. This is from witeken. A Well known Intel "supporter". AlderLake is good, but claiming it offer more Pref / Watt than Apple's M1 Max on a node that is generation behind would require some independent testing to verify . Because all the data known so far doesn't seems to suggest this. Especially in the case of Single Core Performance. [1] The metric used is the geometric mean of an "n-copy" SPECrate run of the C/C++ integer benchmarks in SPEC CPU 2017. You can find the M1 SPECrate 2017 results here https://www.anandtech.com/show/16252/mac-mini-apple-m1-tested/4 https://www.anandtech.com/show/16252/mac-mini-apple-m1-teste...
- deepnotderp 5y agoTo be fair, comparing TSMC’s nodes vs Intel’s isn’t exactly fair for CPUs since Intel has always had performance advantages beyond density such as Ion, cobalt, air gaps, etc. Edit: Ion= on state current
- PragmaticPulp 5y agoThey're specifically talking about the mobile part here. But it's not hard to believe that it will outrun the M1 Max in multithreaded benchmarks, and likely even single-threaded benchmarks. Intel's latest desktop parts are already faster than an M1 Max by a not-insignificant amount, and this is just a lower-power version. Intel's Alder Lake desktop parts are already surprisingly power efficient (ignoring the heavily clocked i9-12900K flagship, which was designed to basically ignore power consumption) The real wildcard is where the power consumption comes in. Intel has some slides showing it being competitive with or even surpassing the M1 Max. I know a lot a lot of people will scoff at such a claim, but I don't actually have a hard time believing it. I think the M1 is still going to win when it comes to idle consumption, though. I'm going to guess that net battery life is still going to favor the M1 by a decent margin, at least for mixed workloads where the CPU is idle a lot.
- n7pdx 5y agoRight, it is actually possible Intel found the one set of multi-threaded tests where they can lower the voltage/frequency to match the M1 Pro/Max power consumption and just edge ahead on performance due to sheer thread count. Apple decided their high-end laptop needed x number of cores, Intel can always grab a desktop part with x+n cores, shove it into a laptop, and claim a victory. Makes for a good marketing slide. Does not say a whole lot about the whole package, or every other workload besides this one that laptops might run. Say for example, single thread power efficiency, or anything that needs a GPU and won't drain the battery in 30 minutes.
- jeffbee 5y agoI have an M1, M1 Pro, and Core i7-12700K on my desk. The Intel part is the fastest on single and multi-threaded workloads I care about, and it does not come with the rosetta nonsense that makes it difficult to manage your compilers and libs on macOS. It does come with a different kind of nonsense, namely that Linux doesn't know what to do with the efficiency cores of the Intel part, so you have to either disable them or manually manage process and IRQ placement. Oh, and I can put however much memory and SSDs into the PC as I can afford, unlike the Macs. Currently using the M1 mini as a display head with VSCode connected to the PC over Thunderbolt, as a backend. Seems like the best of worlds. M1 Pro is probably going to get sold.
- freediver 5y agoApart from what others already said (performance per watt) this PR fails to acknowledge that M1 also has a built-in Neural Engine cores for accelerating machine learning, which is going to become the main feature of many apps. Indeed, M1 is unique in the respect that you get CPU, GPU and ML cores in a single chip, with incredible performance and minimal power utilization.
- LegitShady 5y agoUnique in what sense? Didn't Samsung make similar arm cpu/you/ml chips for Google's pixel 6 line?
- mynameisvlad 5y agoLaptop/desktop grade CPU/GPU/ML SoCs? No.
- wmf 5y agoIntel has GNA.
- albertopv 5y agoI understand the performance and power pros, but I don't like Apple architecture, if one of CPU, GPU or ML fails you have to replace everything, even what's still working. In fact I'm all in with Framework laptop, sadly they don't ship in Europe.
- fomine3 5y agoComputing chip itself rarely fails. Likely to fail other components like DRAM, SSD, fan, keyboard.
- hu3 5y agoThat thing should be screamingly fast with native Linux. If it compiles my projects 10% faster I'll probably get one to play with. 35w should be trivial to cool. My current laptop stays quiet up to 50w on the CPU with graphite pads on the GPU and liquid metal on the CPU.
- adenozine 5y agoI don't want to leave ARM because I don't want to support Intel either way. So, there!
- iqanq 5y agoMoving to a completely proprietary platform just to spite one x86 vendor is cutting off your nose to spite your face ;)
- spicybright 5y agoI thought arm was a lot more open than x86 based tech?
- userbinator 5y agoNo. x86 has its roots in the PC, which was an open and relatively standardised platform. ARM's rise to popularity came later, and there are literally thousands if not tens of thousands of different SoCs with an ARM core, which have nothing in common but the core. All the locked-down mobile devices are in this category, and their SoC manufacturers have been extremely reluctant to release much in the way of documentation.
- throwawaylinux 5y ago> x86 has its roots in the PC, which was an open and relatively standardised platform. x86 was and is proprietary (ARM's ISAs and designs are as well). The wider x86 platform is somewhat standardized, but that doesn't mean it's open any more than Apple computers using Thunderbolt or PCI or USB or DDR standards mean they are open.
- blackoil 5y agoCan you build an ARM computer of the components from Newegg?
- tyingq 5y agoAlso, a nitro-methane dragster is faster in the 1/4 mile than a high end Tesla. Though it might be wasting a few joules here and there doing it.
- bloodyplonker22 5y agoIt's ironic how Intel is now the company that needs to try to punch up in marketing after putting a sales/marketing person in charge for several years and falling straight down the ladder to pretty much last place.
- carlycue 5y agoApple has already won. Even if Intel catches up in efficiency, it doesn't matter. Even if they're 30% faster, it doesn't matter. Apple is in charge of their own destiny with Apple Silicon. That's invaluable.
- abledon 5y agoisnt it TSMC's silicon with a printing recipe sent over from apple?
- collinvandyck76 5y agoYes, Apple relies on other foundries to build their chips.
- eyelidlessness 5y agoWell, that’s a surprisingly myopic take on a site with a disproportionately large audience who send recipes to silicon on the regular.
- rstupek 5y agoDoesn't AMD similarly send their recipe to TSMC to be printed?
- lostmsu 5y agoI think TSMC being the king here was the point of the comment.
- pjscott 5y agoThat’s correct, but (a) the recipe is extremely non-trivial and (b) Apple could take that recipe to Samsung and get mostly comparable results for something in the double-digit millions of dollars range for design conversion, so they have leverage.
- howdydoo 5y agoSo Apple is the best regardless of which product is better?
- yeetaccount4 5y agoYeah right after all their bullshit perf metric shenanigans there’s no way I’m going to believe it on face value. How much longer have they been doing this than Crapple, and they think this is something to brag about? It’s 2004 all over again.
- kumarvvr 5y agoWow. Intel has shifted from being a leader to a follower. It doesn't matter if this particular chip is better than that particular chip. Apple will come up with an M2 or M2X that will be better or faster or cheaper. Apple is focusing on its products. Make then quieter, make them faster, make them last longer, make them lighter. The M1 design goals would be tuned to that. Seems like Intels goals are tuned to whatever beats M1.
- foxes 5y agoEven though the facility testing the new Intel CPU was submerged kilometres underwater, the blinding flash and mushroom cloud from the core meltdown was visible from orbit. In an instant hundreds of cubic kilometres of ocean boiled off. In the hours and days that followed, the mega tsunamis and earthquakes reduced most cities to scrambled ruins, the lands poisoned with radioactive salt rain.
- trantorghost 5y agoI wish Intel's product could be more competitive, the M1 macbook looks like IPAD with a larger screen.
- ytch 5y agoBut Intel also said Rocket Lake is better than M1: https://www.laptopmag.com/news/intels-benchmarks-show-advantages-over-apples-m1-processor-nobodys-buying-it https://www.laptopmag.com/news/intels-benchmarks-show-advant... > Intel claims that an 11th gen Core i7-1185G7 CPU can match or exceed the MacBook Pro M1’s processor in both native and non-native applications based on the benchmarks released. The company also says the 11th gen Core I7 will provide better battery life. So can we assume the leap of M1 -> M1 Max is bigger than 11th i7 -> 12th i7, therefore Intel can only beat it with i9? But it is a little strange since M1 Max has more CPU, GPU core and memory, and CPU design is almost the same. while Intel 12th core is a new design.
- zzt123 5y agoThere was no leap M1 -> M1 Max for single core. M1 Max, when it came out, was pretty much a bigger version of a one year old cpu.
- mdasen 5y agoThis feels like Intel blowing smoke. Comparing an HK processor to the M1 Pro/Max feels disingenuous. AnandTech compared the 11th generation HK to the M1 Max and found the M1 Max to use a lot less power (https://www.anandtech.com/show/17024/apple-m1-max-performance-review/3 https://www.anandtech.com/show/17024/apple-m1-max-performanc...). The HK used 2.7x, 2.1x, 2.3x, 2.0x, 3.2x, 1.9x, 1.3x, 1.3x, and then the gaming ones with discrete GPU where the combo used 3.2x and 2.4x. The MSI laptop with that HK chip in it is a 6.4 pound laptop with a 280W charger. What's so great about my M1 Pro MacBook is that I never hear fan noise. It doesn't get warm. I don't have to worry about running my battery down with IntelliJ. I don't have to worry about covering the vents with a blanket. I just get to use it. Intel is also announcing new 28W P-series processors and 9-15W U-series processors. The M1 (non-Pro/Max) fits into a fan-less MacBook Air. While my MacBook Pro has a fan, it basically never comes on (which definitely wasn't the case with my 10th generation Intel MacBook Pro). Comparing a 45W HK part to an M1 Pro/Max that seems to be well below 28W just doesn't seem like a real comparison. We'll see when AnandTech and others get their hands on it, but if it's achieving marginal performance gains while using double the power, that's not impressive. It kinda leaves me with the question: Are the HK processors a desperate attempt for Intel to get positive PR? When Apple showed off the M1 Max, it was showing off a chip that would fit in a gorgeous, convenient laptop. All of a sudden, you could have all that power without compromise. The HK processors feel like Intel saying, "see, you can have that power with us too," except that it doesn't come without the compromises. It comes with a 280W power adapter, a large and heavy form factor, heat, and low battery life. Or maybe Intel has pulled it off...but it seems like a desperate attempt to say "we're #1...if you don't look closely." Plus, one of the big advantages of the M1 is the unified memory. When Affinity Photo was benchmarking the M1 Max, it really showed the importance of the unified memory: https://twitter.com/andysomerfield/status/1452623920721448963 https://twitter.com/andysomerfield/status/145262392072144896.... Maybe Intel has pulled off something amazing. It seems more likely that they've produced a low-volume 45W part that will let them claim a benchmark crown while their 28W, 15W, and 9W parts are still behind. The fact that they're trumpeting a 45W part immediately makes me think that they're making a bad faith comparison. I hope Intel does well because competition is good for me as a consumer. This comparison doesn't make me think Intel has caught Apple.
- 5y ago
- midrus 5y agoThey look so desperate, it is even painful to see.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- kimown 5y agox86-64, arm, M1 will get outdated, the future belongs to risc-v.
- watersb 5y agoI really want to know how much power a typical 12th-gen Intel i9 laptop will require, with a number of web pages open in Windows, Windows Terminal with an Ubuntu shell open, just sitting there as I read HN. Which is to say, mostly idle. Next level, let's say you also have Dropbox installed and mostly up to date, not obviously indexing or whatever. I'm getting some strange numbers from my MacBook Air M1, like 25 milliWatts of SoC power draw. 0.025 Watts. That doesn't include the display (5 Watts?) etc. Windows Performance Monitor would show me a battery discharge of about 7 Watts on my little HP Stream 11, under roughly these conditions. Such low end might not seem relevant to you, but it covers most of my usage. VS Code, web pages, files. I try to keep the M1 MacBook Air away from direct contact with my skin, because my body, at ~ 36 C, is hotter than its idle operating temperature. My old Ivy Bridge laptops can't tie their shoes at anything under 50 degrees C.