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ASML reports fire at its Berlin factory
- n-e-w 5y agoAs a single source supplier for the global semiconductor supply chain this is concerning. Is impacting the semi supply chain the hot, new weapon of the US-China tech cold war?
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- chmod775 5y agoHurting ASML serves neither side - and that's true for most third parties who want nothing to do with that stupidity. But since it is stupidity and given the track record of the countries involved, I wouldn't completely rule out that someone might pull a stunt like this.
- rjzzleep 5y agoChina has been pouring high order of millions into domestic lithography. Eventually the market will shift. We're still a bit far away. Edit: funny that people here think that this is statement is somehow something that could be considered a contentious topic. semiengineering has a startup section with investments for people that are more interested in facts than emotions: https://semiengineering.com/startup-corner/ https://semiengineering.com/startup-corner/
- throwawaylinux 5y agoWell EUV alone cost many billions of dollars to develop. It's also not clear that China is particularly good at leading high tech innovation. If you just look at the dollars and cents, they should be inventing new technology at a similar rate as the US. Doesn't seem like they're pulling their weight.
- mensetmanusman 5y agoThey don’t have to lead though, just fast follow. Many companies were hit by digital trade secret theft that was sent to China, so they are more than capable of bypassing the billions of R&D by getting access to the designs and going from there with government backing.
- jazzyjackson 5y agoMany companies sent their blueprints to China and asked them to find a cheaper way to build it, and so they did. The exclusivity guarantees must have been lost in translation.
- fvv 5y agoMany ? Like who ? A secret stolen that way with company permission to stole and not just to a temporary permission to use the blueprint IMHO never happened and if happened has been a micro tiny fraction of stolen secrets ie by acquisitions, price dumping , expats coming back after having worked years in key jobs and then going in china to do a job where they can use what they learned without the restrictions of westerns laws
- jazzyjackson 5y agoI didn't mean clandestinely, I meant that western companies choose to have their product produced in China, and are surprised when the product is sold without their label attached to it. I guess it is the media pirate in me quibbling over the definition of "stole", yes, as far as intellectual property goes, the Chinese have 'stolen' the goods, but I can only speculate that the vast majority of the time they did not have to sneak into an office in the middle of the night, instead the IP was handed to them with a "please don't make copies outside of this commission, or I'll tell the US government you stole." Without enforcement, there's no such thing as private property. Western companies should have kept their secrets secret.
- throwawaylinux 5y ago
- orlp 5y ago> pouring high order of millions All I can think of is dr. Evil saying "one MILLION dollars".
- xadhominemx 5y agoChina will not have a domestically sourced EUV scanner with commercially viable throughput within 20 years, if not longer. They are lacking precursor technologies to the precursor technologies, supply chains, talent, etc for both light source and optics, and unlike the rear of the semiconductor industry, those ecosystems are today found within the US and Europe, not Asia.
- scarab92 5y agoThings move pretty fast in China, so even though they are slow to innovate they can quickly copy designs where enough detailed information exists in public. EUV took decades and billions of dollars in trial and error before the current techniques were figured out. Due to the West's tendency to publish successful techniques, China won't have to repeat these steps.
- bobthepanda 5y agoYMMV, depending on the technology. As an example where this hasn't worked so well, COMAC's aircraft production has not been doing too hot.
- snicker7 5y agoThings moved fast in China (rather Shrnzhen) due to a period of ultra-liberal economics that Xi is now dismantling.
- sudosysgen 5y agoXi has been cracking down a lot on "soft tech". Hardware tech has never been anywhere close to liberal even in Shenzhen, where all levels of government always had massive levels of investment and involvement in the industry.
- sitkack 5y agoCould you define soft tech in this context?
- himinlomax 5y agoASML has taken over all the business formerly held by such companies as Nikon, who are now in no position to compete. They would certainly be much better placed to do so again than some random Chinese company with no track record in the area. Disruptive innovations do happen, but that's not what the Chinese are doing here.
- nabla9 5y agoChina has no access to advanced ASML EUV lithography. Hurting ASML would help domestic Chinese manufacturers relative to Taiwan, South Korea, Japan and the US and elsewhere. (sabotage has so many other risks that it's not a good idea)
- manquer 5y agoAssuming rationality or optimal play is not good way to think of real world actions. You only need three things for something like this to happen. 1. One side thinks[1] that it will hurt the other side more than it does to itself. 2. Politically it can handle/sell the cost of such an action. 3. There is a leader who is ready to execute it as his agenda. [1] Only have to think so, it doesn't have to even be true.
- colechristensen 5y ago>Is impacting the semi supply chain the hot, new weapon of the US-China tech cold war? If it is, at best only temporarily. The US is perfectly capable of setting up its own complete supply chain if there were the political motivation and do so in a relatively short time frame. China is perfectly aware of this so it will never become a serious issue, they would just be shooting themselves in the foot and cutting themselves off from our (sometimes unwilling) technology transfer.
- oneplane 5y agoThe US is capable of many things, in theory. In practise, not a lot of new capabilities have materialised so far. Not even a single new Foxconn plant or a domestic contender (if any). That's not to say that is impossible, but without good examples we can all say a bunch of stuff and it won't mean anything.
- colechristensen 5y agoThere's a difference between what happens for economic reasons and what would happen for an actual security / supply chain threat.
- oneplane 5y ago> That's not to say that is impossible, but without good examples we can all say a bunch of stuff and it won't mean anything.
- colechristensen 5y agoOk, in WWII a big part of Allied victory was the US mobilizing a vertically integrated industrial base to build war materiel. You can look at the history of the Defense Production Act (1950) to see it in action several times building up local industries with lots of cheap money.
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- baq 5y agoCreating EUV machines took twice as long as getting people on the moon… not sure if it was as expensive, but setting up EUV lithography capacity for mass production certainly sounds like the Apollo program of the semiconductor industry.
- sydthrowaway 5y ago
- lmilcin 5y agoYou seem to have some knowledge that we do not. Care to share your source of information?
- n-e-w 5y agoNot that weird: "Since the US-China trade and technology confrontation spilled into public view in 2017, most of the attention has centered on trade conflict and the US campaign against Huawei, China's 5G leader and its most important global technology company. But recent US actions involving semiconductors present a more fundamental problem for China. Efforts to cut off the supply of cutting-edge semiconductors to Huawei and to encourage the construction of advanced chip factories on US soil have drawn the semiconductor industry into the US-China technology cold war, raising the stakes in the countries' trade and technology conflict." [1] [1] https://www.eurasiagroup.net/live-post/geopolitics-semiconductors https://www.eurasiagroup.net/live-post/geopolitics-semicondu...
- jazzyjackson 5y agoWouldn't be surprised. It is a pity and a relief that the new face of war will simply result in infrastructure failing at slightly higher rates, in a slow escalation as each side sees what it can get away with while maintaining plausible deniability.
- max-ibel 5y agoLem has mapped out a future like that in "Eden". Not sure if it's a great future to live in.
- forgotmyoldacc 5y agoSo where's the evidence? It's easy to spew conspiracy theories about anything. Intel could've started the fire in ASML's plant to slow down TSMC. I could've shorted ASML's stock and started the fire to profit from the other side of the world.
- IAmEveryone 5y agoGoogle Streetview of the location: https://www.google.com/maps/@52.4504667,13.4327515,3a,75y,226.47h,120.91t/data=!3m9!1e1!3m7!1s2uPT3eKmOS0nmgSg-gPYQA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!9m2!1b1!2i25!5m1!1e3 https://www.google.com/maps/@52.4504667,13.4327515,3a,75y,22... It's as close as one can get, with about 200m missing because, I guess, the driver decided nobody would care about the rest of this godforsaken industrial area. Or they got a call at exactly that moment that Google would stop gathering photos to spite the criticism of data protection advocates that was annoying them at the time.
- daneel_w 5y agoThe HN headline says "large fire", but the article does not.
- jazzyjackson 5y agoThis is the best info I could find, linked from a reddit thread. > Eine automatische Reinigungsanlage sei auf etwa 200 Quadratmetern in Brand geraten. > According to the fire brigade, only part of the plant was affected by the fire. An automatic cleaning system caught fire on around 200 square meters. https://www-heise-de.translate.goog/news/Brand-bei-ASML-Folgen-fuer-Halbleiterindustrie-noch-unklar-6316923.html?wt_mc=rss.red.ho.ho.atom.beitrag.beitrag&_x_tr_sl=de&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en-GB https://www-heise-de.translate.goog/news/Brand-bei-ASML-Folg...
- dralley 5y agoIt sounds like the fire itself was pretty small, but considering how sensitive the equipment they manufacture is and how clean it has to be, the potential damage to the facility and the production lines could be really severe.
- n-e-w 5y agoTheir statement is that it's too early to assess damage -- but it's enough they need to take a few days to assess the damage itself and impact on production. Also enough that it hit the share price. So, clearly not trivial. "At this point it is too early to make any statement on the damage or whether the incident will have any impact on the output plan for this year. It will take a few days to conduct a thorough investigation and make a full assessment. " https://www.asml.com/en/news/press-releases/2022/fire-incident-at-asml-berlin https://www.asml.com/en/news/press-releases/2022/fire-incide...
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- dathinab 5y agoBerlin news (rbb) say that Many things are still unclear including: - how big the damage is - how long it takes to operate again - how it was possible to happen/how it happend The linked article basically says the same.
- Ygg2 5y agoDoesn't litography use some pretty wild chemicals. Like Chlorine Trifloride? Thing that when burned emits hydrochloric acid and hydrofluoric acid. Aka thing that burns ashes. Again. I assume making those machines is pretty crazy as well.
- scheme271 5y agoThe one of the widely used light sources for EUV lithography uses a laser to zap molten tin to get the tin plasma to ionize and emit EUV light. It's fairly exotic and really inefficient but is needed for the smaller node sizes.
- Spooky23 5y agoI worked at a facility with experimental lithography machines. One of the nasties looked like water, but would pass through your skin and melt your bones. Fun.
- Ygg2 5y agoThat's wild. Something right out of the zone. Any idea what is it?
- Spooky23 5y agoHF was one of the nastier ones, but the one I’m thinking of sounded nastier. I’ll look for it in old training materials in the AM.
- tyingq 5y agoHydrofluoric acid, though I don't think it melts your bones in a dramatic/fast way. It seems to be partially so dangerous because it doesn't "burn" right away, and as you say, is absorbed quickly in skin. So you might not rinse it off quickly. "Piranha solution" (sulfuric acid, water, and hydrogen peroxide) is closer to what tv/movies portray hydrofluoric acid being like. That is, being able to disappear a body in it.
- jbverschoor 5y agoTech giants seem to have fire problems in Germany lately
- FinnKuhn 5y agoI‘m not quite sure, which other incidents you are referring too, as the only recent one I can remember was on OHB a few days ago. News article (only in German): https://www.n-tv.de/regionales/niedersachsen-und-bremen/Brandanschlag-auf-Raumfahrtkonzern-Staatsschutz-ermittelt-article23033914.html https://www.n-tv.de/regionales/niedersachsen-und-bremen/Bran...
- jbverschoor 5y agoAWS had a fire incident last summer Tesla has a fire incident last year (claimed by leftists) OVH had a fire incident last summer, but Strasbourg is actually France, who knew!
- FinnKuhn 5y agoDidn't know abot these, do you happen to know if anyone got caught in one of these cases?
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- harha 5y agoWhat's the deal with moving to Berlin anyway? Infrastructure is pretty bad (try getting good internet or mobile reception, even as a business), as are labor and tax laws and the motivation of most employees is pretty low as a result (high security, limited mobility - need tenure to retain the security, low impact of actions - both under and over performing), additionally, everything is a bureaucratic nightmare, better get out the fax machine.
- sofixa 5y agoASML didn't move to Berlin, they acquired a former supplier, Berliner Glass, which was founded there in 1952. Labour and tax laws can be an advantage (some people are more productive when not under stress, which is much more of a factor if you can get fired for whatever reason).
- _moof 5y agoI think we might not be good at building resilient systems.
- capableweb 5y agoIt's the opposite, this accident will make us better at making resilient systems. As we get better and better at safety, more and more accidents will be prevented, compared to yesterday and the day before. But as we build more complicated systems, we also discover new problems, sometimes after they become accidents, unfortunately.
- uvdn7 5y agoNormal Accidents is a terrific book on inevitable failures of complex systems — it was written before Chernobyl which makes it prophetic as well.
- hnburnsy 5y agoAfter hours share price is stable as of 10:30 PM EST. https://www.nasdaq.com/market-activity/stocks/asml/after-hours-trades https://www.nasdaq.com/market-activity/stocks/asml/after-hou...
- quickthrowman 5y agoUS equities after hours trading closes at 8:00 PM EST
- tpmx 5y agoIt's also traded in Amsterdam (Euronext): https://www.google.com/search?q=AMS:ASML https://www.google.com/search?q=AMS:ASML
- hda2 5y agoLike water, food, and electricity, electronics have become an integral part of life. Every single country that can afford to bootstrap their own semiconductor manufacturing infrastructure should be scrambling to do so. This infrastructure doesn't have to be cutting edge. Even 90s-era tech should be enough to cover a country's basic needs in case of a global collapse or shortage. It's insane for humanity to continue putting their eggs in one or two baskets.
- whatshisface 5y agoI think you're leaving a few things off the list. Gasoline, steel, machine shops, chemical plants... by the time you added everything that could lead to crisis if it ran out or stopped working you'd be a proponent of the Juche Idea. ;)
- hda2 5y agoMost countries I know of already consider power and basic manufacturing (chemical, construction) to be crucial, and do their best to secure their production or procurement. My argument is that semiconductor manufacturing must also be added to that list. A natural disaster or a war between two countries shouldn't lead to wide-spread famine or throw humanity back into the dark ages.
- pasabagi 5y agoWould it be the dark ages, though? I don't think it would be so terrible if we were all thrown back to PDP 11's or something, and there's no way it could ever be anywhere near that drastic. Hardware advances are nice, but the main innovations in computers have been infrastructural and social (the internet, email, open source, etc).
- whatshisface 5y agoDon't forget about engine control computers, which are necessary for much of today's ICE efficiency gains.
- PHGamer 5y agois this like when refineries say there is a fire but they just want to cut production .
- tcskeptic 5y agoChina sabotaging ASML profit on to prevent decentralization of chip production from Taiwan and maintain leverage over the US in Taiwan sovereignty struggle.
- dirtyid 5y agoReminds me of Chinese netizen conspiracy theory that US set fire to ASML / Prodrive warehouse in 2019 that delayed EUV delivery to SMIC long enough for Trump admin to pressure Dutch gov to cancel the contract. Plausible more US shenanigans or that PRC is fighting fire with fire. Literally. Conspiracy theories aside, hard to believe stuxnetting semi fabs isn't in the list of options.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- randomopining 5y agoThe timing is so suspicious that it definitely gives weight to that. Like the other sub-poster said, stux'ing a fab to show leverage in a future chip race makes a lot of sense.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- wumpus 5y agoOne of the fun parts of working in Silicon Valley is that there's... industrial stuff everywhere. At one office building, not only did we have the usual fire evacuation plan, but we had extra instructions because of one of our neighbors, who had storage tanks with the usual fab chemicals. Yow.
- Fnoord 5y agoYeah, that's not just in SV. Here in The Netherlands, you might have a neighbor who hosts illegal fireworks in their apartment/house. Some of that (e.g. 'cobra') is akin to having explosives. Which is illegal to have in your house, due to the safety concerns for other people.
- cromka 5y agoIs this in any particular way specific to The Netherlands? Sounds like it could happen anywhere?
- tinus_hn 5y agoIt’s like the Prohibition era. The Netherlands have always tried to control fireworks much more rigidly than the surrounding countries, and now have prohibited fireworks completely under the guise of COVID. There is still a big market for it though. The obvious and predictable result is that the stockpiles don’t end up in a bunker but in peoples homes and consist of ever stronger and more dangerous items.
- keewee7 5y agoBerlin is surprisingly backward compared to the rest of Germany. I don't know why tech companies have established themselves in Berlin.
- leokennis 5y agoOut of just curiosity (I do not live in Germany, I have no stakes in this game): how is Berlin backward?
- probably_wrong 5y agoNot the person you are replying to and I don't think that "backwards" is the right way to describe Berlin. Having said that: Berlin is a very "un-German" city in the sense that it seems unable to get things under control. At first they were broke ("poor but sexy", as the slogan went), then they where overwhelmed by tourists and aspiring artists, and now there's not a single free apartment anywhere. The bureaucracy is slow and everything is forever under construction. The BER airport exemplifies all of this at once. Having said that, it's one of my favorite places in the world: there's a vibrant, multicultural art community, everything is more laid back, it has plenty of beautiful corners and parks, and you don't need a car at all. It's a city with a special character, but I can also understand those who would rather live in a more predictable place.
- CookiesNCream23 5y agoI work in the industry and have worked in a fab. Here is some insight. We are taught that fabs are not treated as factories but as hazardous chemical storage plants. On top of that, we work with high pressure and high power systems. Fires have accounted for the most damage to fabs over the years; however, this situation is different. The site is not a fab, it is a ASML manufacturing plant. This plant does not produce chips. It produces parts for the ASML machines. It makes the tables the wafer moves on and the frame the mask moves on. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jH6Urfqt_d4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jH6Urfqt_d4 https://en.wikichip.org/wiki/mask https://en.wikichip.org/wiki/mask Downstream effects of this fire will reduce the uptime of the machines and the delivery of promised machines to our customers. To plug ASML. Speaking as a new grad. If you are in hardware, physics, nanoscience, simulations. ASML is the best company to work at if you want to learn. I get exposure to maybe the most complex engineering system is the world. The scale, complexity, details, and just hardcore technology is mind-blowing. I am plugging ASML because it is not widely know and I would love if fellow engineers had the opportunity to work here. I absolutely love the work I do.
- McBeige 5y agoSounds fascinating! What kinds of simulations?
- CookiesNCream23 5y agoI am not an expert in this area. Most of it is physics simulations. An example I know of is that we use feed forward control to make sure layers are aligned and printed with nanometer precision. Simulations are needed in this instance to model effects like thermal expansion, pressure waves, and much more. There is also more work in metrology (measurement) with stuff like scanning electron microscopes, lasers, flow, etc. You can find more about this by looking at the companies ASML has acquired or ASML's job postings.
- traceroute66 5y ago> Downstream effects of this fire will reduce the uptime of the machines and the delivery of promised machines to our customers. Given that it is the factory acquired from Berlin Glas in 2020, surely its capacity would only "just" be coming online at ASML and they have pre-existing capacity elsewhere ?
- pramaanik 5y agoAt a broader level, this accident again shows how vulnerable the semiconductor supply chain is, and it's not just because of geopolitics. I like the analogy by Willy Shih at HBS - "semiconductor supply chain is like a transcontinental relay race with hidden hurdles".
- jakuboboza 5y agoThis might delay new fabs all over the world that needs EUV equipment. That is bad for people living in 2024 but in 2022 it will change nothing for us pesky consumers. So future people i'm sorry :( the silicon shortage didnt end faster.
- Snafu77 5y agoIt's peculiar how many fires and major incidents there have been in European factories, plants, and buildings owned and operated by large European companies the last couple of years. ASML manufacturing, OVH data center, and even Astra Zeneca's largest vaccine manufacturing site, which is perhaps one of the largest in the world, costing them enormous sums in lost contracts in the early stages of the COVID vaccination effort. The best question to ask is, who benefits? It seems that more often than not it is a large American company or conglomerate.