13 ms·

Hot take: the current state of anti-racism is increasingly indistinguishable from regular racism.

user-the-name 5y ago
Garbage. As someone else already pointed out, this is the exact argument made by the far right. It is entirely dishonest and only serves to suppress efforts to improve the situation of oppressed groups. You can do better than this kind of intellectual laziness. Go learn what actual anti-racism is. Don't just blindly accept contrarianism by those who wish to harm.
Barrin92 5y ago
pretty hot if you've ever been the target of actual racism, which includes getting beaten up for wearing a headscarf, not getting an apartment rented out because your last name sounds weird or being rejected by your parents in law, or fucked over by the police. I know HN doesn't like heated language and so on but if you think a bunch of intellectuals getting their book tours cancelled and online commentators getting their twitter blocked compares to the lived racism of minorities you have to have your head up your own ass.
- zo1 5y ago
  I really don't think we talk enough about how much plain old racism, not "reverse-racism", is actually happening to non-traditional races (I.e. White and Asian people). It's seeped so much into the culture that we don't even notice it, and on top of it, we dismiss it because it's detracting and detrimental to social reform for "real" racism.
- chroem- 5y ago
  Not all forms of discrimination fall along lines of race. You have no idea the kind of discrimination I have had to claw my life back from. Edit: During my schooling I developed a rare form of progressive vision loss. It also makes me extremely light sensitive, and thus it's difficult to conceal. After 1500 job applications I wound up as a construction worker doing hard labor. Since then I have managed to work my way back up to a fairly successful ML engineer, although that never would have happened if I hadn't gone to extreme lengths to conceal the state of my eyesight from my employers. Don't ever imply I don't know what discrimination is like.
  - noobermin 5y ago
    The ableism you faced is terrible. I will ask you how that relates to the post though as it says "discrimination based on racism is worse than being 'cancelled' by the woke mob"
    - ummonk 5y ago
      Which post are you talking about? I don't see anyone saying that.
  - namdnay 5y ago
    I'm not sure why you're exploding on the parent poster - none of what you have described is in any way related to what you or they were discussing
  - Laforet 5y ago
    This is a genuine question, and I apologize in advance if this ever comes across as ableist. Would you still have taken the job knowing that your vision issues might (hypothetically) endanger yourself and others in the line of work? This is the question I have been asking since I watched the movie GATTACA. Without spoiling it for anybody who has not seen it, the movie depicts a predicament somewhat similar to your situation. In the end, the hero was able to emerge triumphant and achieve his life goal through plenty of perseverance plus some deception on the side. The film is hailed as seminal critique against ableism and eugenics among other things. However I could never shake the feeling that the story put the hero in a position way above his physical capability and it is very likely going to end in disaster for everyone involved. I really want to agree with the message of the film, but the plot only seems to undermine it. In a more relatable example, is there any justification in revoking drivers license for senior citizens on the basis that they much more likely to cause accidents, whilst knowing that their quality of life will suffer greatly as a result? This question affects me personally in some way and I still have no good answer for it.
- CodeGlitch 5y ago
  I don't think many in HN would deny these racist events, but is the answer the current "anti racism wokeness"? Arguably not... It seems to be causing more problems than its solving.
  - ljf 5y ago
    Causing problems for who?
    - EarlKing 5y ago
      Anyone with a genuine interesting in seeing racism actually resolved.
    - roenxi 5y ago
      People who are worried about racism. There seems to be a growing acceptance of racially-charged policies in institutions. Even if we accept the occasionally-made argument that meritocracy is an illusion, explicitly racist policies seems like a step down from at least attempting to evaluate individual merit. Attempts at race blindness in the institutions are much better ideas than the ideologies that currently seem to be incubating.
      - rbanffy 5y ago
        > explicitly racist policies seems like a step down from at least attempting to evaluate individual merit. It is a result of the observation that the usual methods for evaluating individual merit are themselves racially biased and, therefore, require a correction factor applied. > Attempts at race blindness This ignores the environment factors around the development of minority individuals that impact the measured merit.
        ummonk 5y ago
        > It is a result of the observation that the usual methods for evaluating individual merit are themselves racially biased and, therefore, require a correction factor applied. What exactly causes these methods to be biased in favor of Asians over whites, and in turn biased in favor of whites whose ancestors did not speak Spanish over whites whose ancestors did speak Spanish?
- eecc 5y ago
  Well, both seem to work on the principle of “cancellation” (one being purely abstract social, the other firmly physically social.) But the mechanism remains very very similar.
  - mschuster91 5y ago
    [flagged]
    - mdoms 5y ago
      Lianne Wadi
      - mschuster91 5y ago
        Admittedly I'm European, never heard of that case... but holy fuck if that is not a well-deserved "cancelling" I don't know what is. Literally calling for the extermination of Jews, PoC and fat people [1] - it's hard to get worse verbally. [1]: https://meaww.com/lianne-wadi-palestinian-business-majid-wadi-loss-racist-tweets-resurfaced-backlash https://meaww.com/lianne-wadi-palestinian-business-majid-wad...
        mdoms 5y ago
        Please make an effort to understand the case properly, and the full ramifications. Yes her tweets (that she made as a teenager several years prior to her cancellation) were awful. But perhaps her father doesn't deserve to lose his livelihood along with dozens of his employees because of it.
        lelanthran 5y ago
        From the link: In June 2020, when Minneapolis was rattled by the brutal custodial murder of George Floyd and consequent Black Lives Matter protests, the Wadis became avid supporters of the movement. They even showed their solidarity by flaunting BLM banners from their stores as well as donating food for free to demonstrators. In fact, Lianne herself marched in the BLM protest rallies. However, Lianne's tweets from 2012, which she had even deleted long back, mysteriously resurfaced around that time. The highly offensive tweets portrayed racist sentiments against Black people and the Jewish community. Some of her tweets were also blatantly homophobic and body-shaming. I dunno if it was well-deserved or not (what did the father do that merited the loss of 69 jobs?), but didn't someone famous say "The left always eats its own"? The problem with the woke movement is that it's dominated by the extreme members[1], and the non-extreme members aren't allowed to speak up against the excesses of the movement anyway. There is no forgiveness, there is no compromise, there is no leeway for nuance of thought. All together, that's a very dangerous movement; it's a movement where thought is forbidden, and we all saw how that turned out multiple times in history. [1] Probably a very vocal minority, but with large impact when it comes to effects on people.
- colordrops 5y ago
  I've had a few of the things you listed happen, including getting beat up for my race, not getting an apartment rented out because of my weird name, and rejected by my mother in law. (I'm an arab by the way, and my wife is chinese). I've also not gotten a job because I was considered "white". The hiring manager was a friend, so he let me in on the "social justice" that was going on behind the scenes. These are both "actual racism" to use your terms, and I revile them equally.
  - pm90 5y ago
    I’m sorry about what happened to you. However, your individual experience to the contrary does not counteract the general point.
    - colordrops 5y ago
      And what exactly is the "general point"?
      - garbagecoder 5y ago
        That reverse racism, especially against Asians, is real?
        dragonwriter 5y ago
        Discrimination against Asians isn't “reverse racism” (to the extent that phrase is ever meaningful), in any sense, unless maybe it's in an environment where Asians historically hold disproportionate social power and have used it to systematically discriminate against non-Asians.
        garbagecoder 5y ago
        I’m sorry you’re ignorant of history. There used to be laws like “Chinese Exclusion Acts” that were straight up racism based on a theory of racial inferiority of Asians. Now they are being punished for being academically superior in the name of equity, hence the reverse. Though I agree with you the phrase is mostly meaningless, to the extent it has meaning it’s exactly what I’ve described. Which you seem to agree with, so I’m not sure why you’re flaming me.
- SpicyLemonZest 5y ago
  I don’t want to claim equivalence, but book tours and online commentators are missing the point here. The source post includes a reference to an article Scientific American published, arguing that a particular person was a bad choice to be the White House science advisor because the advisor shouldn’t be a white male.
- YetAnotherNick 5y ago
  Entire world has perpetrated racism/casteism for 1000s of years, including blacks. The aim of bashing out few who we can find ties to racism decades ago is not useful to anyone.
- imgabe 5y ago
  "Just a bunch of intellectuals getting their book tours cancelled" is a strawman that people use to trivialize an increasingly hostile environment that is seeing regular, non-famous people getting silenced and having their careers destroyed. Here's a Twitter thread compiling some examples of instances other than book tours and twitter blocks: https://twitter.com/SoOppressed/status/1282404648389926913 https://twitter.com/SoOppressed/status/1282404648389926913 Sure, nobody is getting lynched yet. If you want to hold an oppression Olympics, minorities still win. Does that make you feel better? Do we have to wait until people are getting murdered to care about it?
  - mjlawson 5y ago
    Honestly, I read the first 8 or so and found most to be appropriate social backlash when taking full context into account. 1. White cafeteria workers serving Kool Aid and watermelon-flavored water for Black History Month, while lying to a student who took offense, saying "black people put this menu together." 2. A yoga studio who was already in the red going under after many of their teachers quit and protested due to workplace complaints. 3. I couldn't find the original source video for this, but feeling obligated to publicly post a video mentioning "overall crime rates of black Americans compared with white Americans" in an attempt to discredit BLM can get you fired. I don't see that as cancel culture, but an employer using their discretion on who they want interfacing with the public. 4. This one I find the most compassion for. If we were to hold everyone and their parents accountable for the things they or their children said when they were 14, we'd be in a lot of trouble. NPR did a good article about this story: https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2020/07/28/891829285/after-being-called-out-for-racism-what-comes-next https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2020/07/28/891829285... 5. This was a private school, not a public school, published by the National Post without any details about the individual who was fired, and uncorroborated by other, less biased news sources. 6. Two white women admit tactlessly that they were stealing recipes from Mexican taco ladies. People didn't like that, and decided not to support their business. I could go on, but I don't see what there is to be outraged about here.
    - imgabe 5y ago
      I'm not going to litigate every example, suffice to say I don't think that's a fair characterization of any of those, except for 4. And in that case, you don't find it outrageous that a family's livelihood was destroyed, along with that of all of their employees for what is essentially some teenage edgelord posturing? You find that to be a perfectly fine and fair thing to happen? Nothing to be outraged about?
- noobermin 5y ago
  I feel like "cancel culture" is a thing but when people make statements like "it's reverse racism, BLM are the REAL racists" I lose all sympathy for their arguments. It is also a bit difficult to feel sorry for people who are the focus of news articles and opeds who are the victims of "cancel culture" who are honestly often wealthy people who as you said get their book tour cancelled. I mean sure, it's difficult and we can talk about it (similar to this article which is about a well-known geneticist's legacy, I think this blogpost is worthy of discussion!), but this need to equate it with what I feel are obviously worse harms make me loathe to continue the conversation. It reminds me a little bit like Godwin's Law, equating some harm which is worthy of its own discussion to an obviously worse harm which just does the job of cheapening the worse at the expense of elevating the minor injury.
  - jollybean 5y ago
    "it's reverse racism, BLM are the REAL racists" That's not the statement being made. OP is saying that 'reverse racism is similar to racism'. It's not unreasonable at all. Casual bigotry is the populist form of racism, and it's now accepted on 'one side', even publicly. While affirmative action may help in some ways, it also allows people with institutional power to let lose their bigotry and justify it, with the full blessing of the powers that be. For example, I believe the author of this SA article is a blatantly hateful, bigoted racist, clear as day judging by this article, and her comments and Tweets. Some people don't seem to have any self awareness about this, it's disturbing, or rather, they take a more perverse view: that bigotry can only come from a position of power, that they will define at will, therefore hateful, bigoted rhetoric towards someone who ostensibly comes from a supposed 'position of power' just 'doesn't count', which is ridiculous.
  - soundnote 5y ago
    The Association of American Medical Colleges, 2017: https://imgur.com/a/4fva6V2 https://imgur.com/a/4fva6V2
- anonymoushn 5y ago
  I was turned down for a bunch of apartments because of my race, but that wasn't racist because it's impossible to be racist against white people.
  - coffeecat 5y ago
    If true, that's a violation of the fair housing act, for which you can and should sue. But taken in conjunction with your other post in this thread, I'm a bit skeptical.
    - anonymoushn 5y ago
      I don't think it's illegal where I live. I can send you the email I received from Thoughtworks when I was based in the USA if you like. You don't seem to have an email in your profile though.
- ummonk 5y ago
  As a brown boy in the post-9/11 bible belt, I've was subjected to bullying (including physical violence) as well as racial profiling for my race. I was also discriminated against in university admissions because somehow my race makes me privileged and/or non-diverse when it comes to academics in the US.
- HideousKojima 5y ago
  >pretty hot if you've ever been the target of actual racism I've been rejected from graduate programs that I would have been accepted to had I been black, does that count?
- refurb 5y ago
  You’re not even addressing the core comment. When your anti-racism theory starts making accusations based on race I’d say you’ve got a problem.
- namelessoracle 5y ago
  Having worked in the prison system as a counselor. I've seen plenty of white people attacked violently for the color of their skin. It's pretty prevalent there at least. These people were also told that it wasn't a racist attack by other counselors who went through social justice esque programs because they were white, and racist attacks cant happen to white people. This was back in the Obama era, so this has been going on for awhile. The current state of anti racism takes that a step further. Those people deserved to be attacked and the results of that attack were justice because of their ancestors.
- soundnote 5y ago
  You know how they used to bar and quota Jews from attending university? Association of American Medical Colleges, 2017: https://imgur.com/a/4fva6V2 https://imgur.com/a/4fva6V2
- Siira 5y ago
  Racism is a huge problem. Suppression of truth in the service of advancing a political agenda is also a huge problem. The latter is, indeed, a most convenient tool that the ruling elite has to leech off others. Look at any system where some people are exploited, and you’ll find an integral component is distorting the truth. Another point that is pertinent is that incentives matter a lot. A person who is by prejudice unable to, e.g., rent a house, is suffering an injustice, but it’s not like they can do much about it. A scientist, who is enjoying respect and prestige, on the other hand, can very easily be swayed by some rather small pressure to take up some politically expedient lies to preserve their lifestyle. So while the pressure on scientists might indeed be trivial compared to what minorities suffer, the effects of this pressure can be society-wide still.
Cthulhu_ 5y ago
Can you list some examples?
breakyerself 5y ago
I found all these studies showing that actual racism causes measurable disadvantages for people of color. Can you show me where antiracism causes anything close to a similar negative effect on society? [1] Police stop black drivers significantly more than white drivers when the sun's up and they can see the driver is black, but not at night when they can't see the drivers race. Meaning race is often the determining factor for why someone is pulled over or not. [2] Unarmed black people are 3.49 times as likely to be killed as unarmed white people. Local crime rates have zero effect on this statistic. [3] Black and white police use force at similar rates in white neightborhoods, but white cops use force significantly more than black cops when responding to calls in minority neighborhoods. [4] Police in oakland find contraband at the same rate regardless of race, but search black drivers 4x more often. [5] The more white a suspect appears to be the less likely police are to use force. The more black a suspect appears the more likely it is that police will use force. [6] Black police are more likely to be shot by their fellow officers than white police. [7] Oaklad police disproportionately handcuff blacks at stunning levels in all areas of the city. [8] In San Francisco, “although Black people accounted for less than 15 percent of all stops in 2015, they accounted for over 42 percent of all non-consent searches following stops.” This proved unwarranted: “Of all people searched without consent, Black and Hispanic people had the lowest ‘hit rates’ (i.e., the lowest rate of contraband recovered).” [9] The DOJ investigation into Ferguson PD, found “a pattern or practice of unlawful conduct within the Ferguson PD that violates the 1st, 4th, and 14th Amendments to the Constitution, and federal law.” The scathing report found that FPD was targeting black residents and treating them as revenue streams for the city by striving to continually increase the money brought in through fees and fines. [10] In Chicago, a 2016 report found that “black and Hispanic drivers were searched approximately four times as often as white drivers, yet Chicago PDs own data show that contraband was found on white drivers twice as often as black and Hispanic drivers.” [11]2014 ACLU analysis of Illinois DOT data found: “Black and Latino drivers are nearly twice as likely as white drivers to be asked during a routine traffic stop for ‘consent’ to have their car searched. Yet white motorists are 49% more likely than African American motorists to have contraband discovered during a consent search by law enforcement, and 56% more likely when compared to Latinos.” [12] Black people are more likely to be wrongfully convicted and more likely to be framed for a crime they didn't commit. [13] Black kids are more likely to be tried as an adult. [14] Black people get 20% longer prison sentences for the same crimes even controlling for criminal history. [15] Black students are more likely to be arrested at school. A function of increased security at predominantly black schools. Not because black students commit crimes at school at higher rates. [16] Security levels in schools are determined by how many black kids go to the school and not crime levels. [17] Predominantly black schools are chronically underfunded compared to predominantly white schools. [18] An identical resume with a white sounding name like Stephen or Susan is twice as likely to recieve a call for a job interview compared to the same resume with an ethnically black sounding name like Jamal or Latisha. [19] Minorities who alter their resumes to seem white get more job interviews. [20] Banks targeted black homeowners for predatory homeloans and refinancing in the lead up to the 2008 crisis. Causing black families to be disproportionately harmed by the forclosure crisis. [21] owner-occupied homes in black neighborhoods are undervalued by $48,000 per home on average, amounting to $156 billion in cumulative losses. This study controls for crime rates. Neighborhood amenities like schools, parks, walkability, and public transportation. The size and age of homes etc. [22] In an experiment landlords responding to emails treated Blacks, Arab males, Muslims, and single parents unfavorably. [23] Almost twice as many non-Hispanic Black children have lead levels at or above 2 micrograms per deciliter compared to non-Hispanic White children. [24] People of color are much more likely to live near polluters and breathe polluted air. People in poverty are exposed to more fine particulate matter than people living above poverty. “results at national, state, and county scales all indicate that non-Whites tend to be burdened disproportionately to Whites.” [25] Black children are taken into foster care at a disproportionately high rate, and stay in the system longer before they’re adopted or reunited with their parents. [1] https://www.nature.com/articles/s41562-020-0858-1 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41562-020-0858-1 [2] https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0141854 https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal... [3] https://www.nber.org/papers/w26774?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter#fromrss https://www.nber.org/papers/w26774?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_me... [4] https://stanford.app.box.com/v/Data-for-Change https://stanford.app.box.com/v/Data-for-Change [5] https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/1948550616633505 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/194855061663350... [6] https://www.hks.harvard.edu/sites/default/files/centers/wiener/programs/pcj/files/Police-on-Police_Shootings_with_appendices.pdf https://www.hks.harvard.edu/sites/default/files/centers/wien... [7] https://sparq.stanford.edu/opd-reports https://sparq.stanford.edu/opd-reports [8] https://sfdistrictattorney.org/sites/default/files/Document/BRP_report.pdf https://sfdistrictattorney.org/sites/default/files/Document/... [9] https://www.justice.gov/sites/default/files/opa/press-releases/attachments/2015/03/04/ferguson_police_department_report.pdf https://www.justice.gov/sites/default/files/opa/press-releas... [10] https://chicagopatf.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/PATF_Final_Report_Executive_Summary_4_13_16-1.pdf https://chicagopatf.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/PATF_Fina... [11] https://www.aclu-il.org/en/press-releases/traffic-stop-data-shows-persistent-patterns-racial-bias-according-new-report https://www.aclu-il.org/en/press-releases/traffic-stop-data-... [12] https://www.law.umich.edu/special/exoneration/Documents/Race_and_Wrongful_Convictions.pdf https://www.law.umich.edu/special/exoneration/Documents/Race... [13] https://www.wnyc.org/story/black-kids-more-likely-be-tried-adults-cant-be-explained/ https://www.wnyc.org/story/black-kids-more-likely-be-tried-a... [14]https://www.ussc.gov/research/research-reports/demographic-differences-sentencing https://www.ussc.gov/research/research-reports/demographic-d... [15] https://www.edweek.org/ew/articles/2017/01/25/black-students-more-likely-to-be-arrested.html https://www.edweek.org/ew/articles/2017/01/25/black-students... [16] https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/06/160608180824.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/06/160608180824.h... [17] https://psmag.com/education/nonwhite-school-districts-get-23-billion-less-funding-than-white-ones https://psmag.com/education/nonwhite-school-districts-get-23... [18] https://www.nber.org/digest/sep03/w9873.html https://www.nber.org/digest/sep03/w9873.html [19] https://hbswk.hbs.edu/item/minorities-who-whiten-job-resumes-get-more-interviews https://hbswk.hbs.edu/item/minorities-who-whiten-job-resumes... [20] https://www.aclu.org/files/field_document/discrimlend_final.pdf https://www.aclu.org/files/field_document/discrimlend_final.... [21] https://www.brookings.edu/research/devaluation-of-assets-in-black-neighborhoods/ https://www.brookings.edu/research/devaluation-of-assets-in-... [22] https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0166046217302612 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S01660... [23] https://www.publichealthpost.org/databyte/racial-gaps-in-childrens-lead-levels/ https://www.publichealthpost.org/databyte/racial-gaps-in-chi... [24] https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2018/02/the-trump-administration-finds-that-environmental-racism-is-real/554315/ https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2018/02/the-tru... [25] https://www.mynews13.com/fl/orlando/news/2021/07/14/foster-care-race?cid=id-app15_m-share_s-web_cmp-app_launch_august2020_c-producer_posts_po-organic https://www.mynews13.com/fl/orlando/news/2021/07/14/foster-c...
Ygg2 5y ago
That's a hot take? Didn't CHAZ had black only zones. It's just racism but with a different bent.
- user-the-name 5y ago
  Racism is far more complicated than that. Giving an oppressed group a safe space is not the same as excluding that group. That is completely missing the point of why racism is a problem. Racism is not anything that takes race into account.
  - voldacar 5y ago
    Your moral framing depends on language manipulation which in turn depends on who is able to most successfully wield power in the public square. Who decides who is part of an "oppressed group"? Challenge mode: your answer must not contain "we" And chaz was hardly a "safe space" as another comment pointed out. It also was not "given"
    - user-the-name 5y ago
      > Your moral framing depends on language manipulation What does this mean? This applies to every single moral judgement, and that is perfectly fine and normal. That is what morals are.
      - enchiridion 5y ago
        No, it doesn’t and it’s not. It is possible to reason about morals without subtlety deceitful language games. I’d also like to point out that your comment likely uses the very same tactics that GP is complaining about. Clearly when saying “manipulation”, GP meant that they are upset with language designed to foster a foregone conclusion. So you either: 1. Think that is acceptable, which it’s not. 2. Are changing the definition of “manipulation” to mean something more like “use”, which was clearly not intended here. Neither option is conducive to honest moral discourse. If you want to reinforce your current beliefs, go ahead and continue the same way. If you are interested in an honest debate, give GP the best interpretation possible, and see if you position still holds up. As a final point of why these language games are not conducive to honest debate, you did not address the latter points that GP brought up.
littlestymaar 5y ago
It's not a “hot take” at all, it is like the official of the GOP, and have been so for quite some time. Actually it is a pretty common trope from concervatives talking about anti-racism. For instance in France this argument dates at least since the 80s (your sentence is almost an exact translation of a bullet point in the agenda of the Front National in 1986 (far right and Holocaust deniers, cofounded by a former waffer SS French volunteer, by the way), which changed name to Rassemblement National and grew to become the second most powerful political party in France).
- refurb 5y ago
  Ok you’ve told me other groups use it but you haven’t refuted the argument in the least.
  - littlestymaar 5y ago
    Indeed I didn't, for good reasons[1] my comment was aiming at the claim that this commonplace was a “hot take”. [1] it's not even an argument to beging with, it's a cheap attempt at decredibilizing the opponent with an inflamatory comparison. You wouldn't lose time to discuss the claim that “conservatives are nazis” or anything like that would you? If you're genuinely interested in an intelligent discussion about that slogan, just search on your favorite search engine: many people have actually discussed it in depth and showed how stupid it is (which is something I deeply admire, since Brandolini's law is very real).
    - refurb 5y ago
      So you've used two tactics now: 1) try and smear people who make this statement by saying "bad people" use it too and now 2) saying that the statement is so "clear false" that it's not even worth trying to refute. Color me skeptical. And i would certainly refute that "conservatives are Nazis" is someone made that statement. It's pretty easily falsifiable. Can you falsify the OP's statement?
      - littlestymaar 5y ago
BatteryMountain 5y ago
Painfully obvious from looking at America from the outside.
coldtea 5y ago
Superficially yes, but I think modern anti-racism is basically classism: a tool privileged whites use to shame and dominate lower classes, and to signal and fight status wars between them. Which is also why accusation of "privilege" more often than not comes from whites (and a smaller assortment of careerists in activism, journalism, and academia) themselves actually privileged career/money/status-wise, and is non-ironically directed towards people less privileged that them! Then again, old-style racism was basically classism too: a way justify keeping blacks as slaves or, after the civil war, as cheap laborers. It's only after blacks became integrated that racism became an ideology apart from serving an active function of maintaining privilege (and by then, the ideology was shared with far fewer, the kind of "white power" scum that are quite rare statistically speaking).
soundnote 5y ago
Cold take: It is regular racism, just directed at acceptable targets.

Garbage. As someone else already pointed out, this is the exact argument made by the far right. It is entirely dishonest and only serves to suppress efforts to improve the situation of oppressed groups. You can do better than this kind of intellectual laziness. Go learn what actual anti-racism is. Don't just blindly accept contrarianism by those who wish to harm.

Barrin92 5y ago

pretty hot if you've ever been the target of actual racism, which includes getting beaten up for wearing a headscarf, not getting an apartment rented out because your last name sounds weird or being rejected by your parents in law, or fucked over by the police. I know HN doesn't like heated language and so on but if you think a bunch of intellectuals getting their book tours cancelled and online commentators getting their twitter blocked compares to the lived racism of minorities you have to have your head up your own ass.

zo1 5y ago
I really don't think we talk enough about how much plain old racism, not "reverse-racism", is actually happening to non-traditional races (I.e. White and Asian people). It's seeped so much into the culture that we don't even notice it, and on top of it, we dismiss it because it's detracting and detrimental to social reform for "real" racism.
chroem- 5y ago
Not all forms of discrimination fall along lines of race. You have no idea the kind of discrimination I have had to claw my life back from. Edit: During my schooling I developed a rare form of progressive vision loss. It also makes me extremely light sensitive, and thus it's difficult to conceal. After 1500 job applications I wound up as a construction worker doing hard labor. Since then I have managed to work my way back up to a fairly successful ML engineer, although that never would have happened if I hadn't gone to extreme lengths to conceal the state of my eyesight from my employers. Don't ever imply I don't know what discrimination is like.
- noobermin 5y ago
  The ableism you faced is terrible. I will ask you how that relates to the post though as it says "discrimination based on racism is worse than being 'cancelled' by the woke mob"
  - ummonk 5y ago
    Which post are you talking about? I don't see anyone saying that.
- namdnay 5y ago
  I'm not sure why you're exploding on the parent poster - none of what you have described is in any way related to what you or they were discussing
- Laforet 5y ago
  This is a genuine question, and I apologize in advance if this ever comes across as ableist. Would you still have taken the job knowing that your vision issues might (hypothetically) endanger yourself and others in the line of work? This is the question I have been asking since I watched the movie GATTACA. Without spoiling it for anybody who has not seen it, the movie depicts a predicament somewhat similar to your situation. In the end, the hero was able to emerge triumphant and achieve his life goal through plenty of perseverance plus some deception on the side. The film is hailed as seminal critique against ableism and eugenics among other things. However I could never shake the feeling that the story put the hero in a position way above his physical capability and it is very likely going to end in disaster for everyone involved. I really want to agree with the message of the film, but the plot only seems to undermine it. In a more relatable example, is there any justification in revoking drivers license for senior citizens on the basis that they much more likely to cause accidents, whilst knowing that their quality of life will suffer greatly as a result? This question affects me personally in some way and I still have no good answer for it.
CodeGlitch 5y ago
I don't think many in HN would deny these racist events, but is the answer the current "anti racism wokeness"? Arguably not... It seems to be causing more problems than its solving.
- ljf 5y ago
  Causing problems for who?
  - EarlKing 5y ago
    Anyone with a genuine interesting in seeing racism actually resolved.
  - roenxi 5y ago
    People who are worried about racism. There seems to be a growing acceptance of racially-charged policies in institutions. Even if we accept the occasionally-made argument that meritocracy is an illusion, explicitly racist policies seems like a step down from at least attempting to evaluate individual merit. Attempts at race blindness in the institutions are much better ideas than the ideologies that currently seem to be incubating.
    - rbanffy 5y ago
      > explicitly racist policies seems like a step down from at least attempting to evaluate individual merit. It is a result of the observation that the usual methods for evaluating individual merit are themselves racially biased and, therefore, require a correction factor applied. > Attempts at race blindness This ignores the environment factors around the development of minority individuals that impact the measured merit.
      - ummonk 5y ago
        > It is a result of the observation that the usual methods for evaluating individual merit are themselves racially biased and, therefore, require a correction factor applied. What exactly causes these methods to be biased in favor of Asians over whites, and in turn biased in favor of whites whose ancestors did not speak Spanish over whites whose ancestors did speak Spanish?
eecc 5y ago
Well, both seem to work on the principle of “cancellation” (one being purely abstract social, the other firmly physically social.) But the mechanism remains very very similar.
- mschuster91 5y ago
  [flagged]
  - mdoms 5y ago
    Lianne Wadi
    - mschuster91 5y ago
      Admittedly I'm European, never heard of that case... but holy fuck if that is not a well-deserved "cancelling" I don't know what is. Literally calling for the extermination of Jews, PoC and fat people [1] - it's hard to get worse verbally. [1]: https://meaww.com/lianne-wadi-palestinian-business-majid-wadi-loss-racist-tweets-resurfaced-backlash https://meaww.com/lianne-wadi-palestinian-business-majid-wad...
      - mdoms 5y ago
        Please make an effort to understand the case properly, and the full ramifications. Yes her tweets (that she made as a teenager several years prior to her cancellation) were awful. But perhaps her father doesn't deserve to lose his livelihood along with dozens of his employees because of it.
      - lelanthran 5y ago
        From the link: In June 2020, when Minneapolis was rattled by the brutal custodial murder of George Floyd and consequent Black Lives Matter protests, the Wadis became avid supporters of the movement. They even showed their solidarity by flaunting BLM banners from their stores as well as donating food for free to demonstrators. In fact, Lianne herself marched in the BLM protest rallies. However, Lianne's tweets from 2012, which she had even deleted long back, mysteriously resurfaced around that time. The highly offensive tweets portrayed racist sentiments against Black people and the Jewish community. Some of her tweets were also blatantly homophobic and body-shaming. I dunno if it was well-deserved or not (what did the father do that merited the loss of 69 jobs?), but didn't someone famous say "The left always eats its own"? The problem with the woke movement is that it's dominated by the extreme members[1], and the non-extreme members aren't allowed to speak up against the excesses of the movement anyway. There is no forgiveness, there is no compromise, there is no leeway for nuance of thought. All together, that's a very dangerous movement; it's a movement where thought is forbidden, and we all saw how that turned out multiple times in history. [1] Probably a very vocal minority, but with large impact when it comes to effects on people.
colordrops 5y ago
I've had a few of the things you listed happen, including getting beat up for my race, not getting an apartment rented out because of my weird name, and rejected by my mother in law. (I'm an arab by the way, and my wife is chinese). I've also not gotten a job because I was considered "white". The hiring manager was a friend, so he let me in on the "social justice" that was going on behind the scenes. These are both "actual racism" to use your terms, and I revile them equally.
- pm90 5y ago
  I’m sorry about what happened to you. However, your individual experience to the contrary does not counteract the general point.
  - colordrops 5y ago
    And what exactly is the "general point"?
    - garbagecoder 5y ago
      That reverse racism, especially against Asians, is real?
      - dragonwriter 5y ago
        Discrimination against Asians isn't “reverse racism” (to the extent that phrase is ever meaningful), in any sense, unless maybe it's in an environment where Asians historically hold disproportionate social power and have used it to systematically discriminate against non-Asians.
        garbagecoder 5y ago
        I’m sorry you’re ignorant of history. There used to be laws like “Chinese Exclusion Acts” that were straight up racism based on a theory of racial inferiority of Asians. Now they are being punished for being academically superior in the name of equity, hence the reverse. Though I agree with you the phrase is mostly meaningless, to the extent it has meaning it’s exactly what I’ve described. Which you seem to agree with, so I’m not sure why you’re flaming me.
SpicyLemonZest 5y ago
I don’t want to claim equivalence, but book tours and online commentators are missing the point here. The source post includes a reference to an article Scientific American published, arguing that a particular person was a bad choice to be the White House science advisor because the advisor shouldn’t be a white male.
YetAnotherNick 5y ago
Entire world has perpetrated racism/casteism for 1000s of years, including blacks. The aim of bashing out few who we can find ties to racism decades ago is not useful to anyone.
imgabe 5y ago
"Just a bunch of intellectuals getting their book tours cancelled" is a strawman that people use to trivialize an increasingly hostile environment that is seeing regular, non-famous people getting silenced and having their careers destroyed. Here's a Twitter thread compiling some examples of instances other than book tours and twitter blocks: https://twitter.com/SoOppressed/status/1282404648389926913 https://twitter.com/SoOppressed/status/1282404648389926913 Sure, nobody is getting lynched yet. If you want to hold an oppression Olympics, minorities still win. Does that make you feel better? Do we have to wait until people are getting murdered to care about it?
- mjlawson 5y ago
  Honestly, I read the first 8 or so and found most to be appropriate social backlash when taking full context into account. 1. White cafeteria workers serving Kool Aid and watermelon-flavored water for Black History Month, while lying to a student who took offense, saying "black people put this menu together." 2. A yoga studio who was already in the red going under after many of their teachers quit and protested due to workplace complaints. 3. I couldn't find the original source video for this, but feeling obligated to publicly post a video mentioning "overall crime rates of black Americans compared with white Americans" in an attempt to discredit BLM can get you fired. I don't see that as cancel culture, but an employer using their discretion on who they want interfacing with the public. 4. This one I find the most compassion for. If we were to hold everyone and their parents accountable for the things they or their children said when they were 14, we'd be in a lot of trouble. NPR did a good article about this story: https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2020/07/28/891829285/after-being-called-out-for-racism-what-comes-next https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2020/07/28/891829285... 5. This was a private school, not a public school, published by the National Post without any details about the individual who was fired, and uncorroborated by other, less biased news sources. 6. Two white women admit tactlessly that they were stealing recipes from Mexican taco ladies. People didn't like that, and decided not to support their business. I could go on, but I don't see what there is to be outraged about here.
  - imgabe 5y ago
    I'm not going to litigate every example, suffice to say I don't think that's a fair characterization of any of those, except for 4. And in that case, you don't find it outrageous that a family's livelihood was destroyed, along with that of all of their employees for what is essentially some teenage edgelord posturing? You find that to be a perfectly fine and fair thing to happen? Nothing to be outraged about?
noobermin 5y ago
I feel like "cancel culture" is a thing but when people make statements like "it's reverse racism, BLM are the REAL racists" I lose all sympathy for their arguments. It is also a bit difficult to feel sorry for people who are the focus of news articles and opeds who are the victims of "cancel culture" who are honestly often wealthy people who as you said get their book tour cancelled. I mean sure, it's difficult and we can talk about it (similar to this article which is about a well-known geneticist's legacy, I think this blogpost is worthy of discussion!), but this need to equate it with what I feel are obviously worse harms make me loathe to continue the conversation. It reminds me a little bit like Godwin's Law, equating some harm which is worthy of its own discussion to an obviously worse harm which just does the job of cheapening the worse at the expense of elevating the minor injury.
- jollybean 5y ago
  "it's reverse racism, BLM are the REAL racists" That's not the statement being made. OP is saying that 'reverse racism is similar to racism'. It's not unreasonable at all. Casual bigotry is the populist form of racism, and it's now accepted on 'one side', even publicly. While affirmative action may help in some ways, it also allows people with institutional power to let lose their bigotry and justify it, with the full blessing of the powers that be. For example, I believe the author of this SA article is a blatantly hateful, bigoted racist, clear as day judging by this article, and her comments and Tweets. Some people don't seem to have any self awareness about this, it's disturbing, or rather, they take a more perverse view: that bigotry can only come from a position of power, that they will define at will, therefore hateful, bigoted rhetoric towards someone who ostensibly comes from a supposed 'position of power' just 'doesn't count', which is ridiculous.
- soundnote 5y ago
  The Association of American Medical Colleges, 2017: https://imgur.com/a/4fva6V2 https://imgur.com/a/4fva6V2
anonymoushn 5y ago
I was turned down for a bunch of apartments because of my race, but that wasn't racist because it's impossible to be racist against white people.
- coffeecat 5y ago
  If true, that's a violation of the fair housing act, for which you can and should sue. But taken in conjunction with your other post in this thread, I'm a bit skeptical.
  - anonymoushn 5y ago
    I don't think it's illegal where I live. I can send you the email I received from Thoughtworks when I was based in the USA if you like. You don't seem to have an email in your profile though.
ummonk 5y ago
As a brown boy in the post-9/11 bible belt, I've was subjected to bullying (including physical violence) as well as racial profiling for my race. I was also discriminated against in university admissions because somehow my race makes me privileged and/or non-diverse when it comes to academics in the US.
HideousKojima 5y ago
>pretty hot if you've ever been the target of actual racism I've been rejected from graduate programs that I would have been accepted to had I been black, does that count?
refurb 5y ago
You’re not even addressing the core comment. When your anti-racism theory starts making accusations based on race I’d say you’ve got a problem.
namelessoracle 5y ago
Having worked in the prison system as a counselor. I've seen plenty of white people attacked violently for the color of their skin. It's pretty prevalent there at least. These people were also told that it wasn't a racist attack by other counselors who went through social justice esque programs because they were white, and racist attacks cant happen to white people. This was back in the Obama era, so this has been going on for awhile. The current state of anti racism takes that a step further. Those people deserved to be attacked and the results of that attack were justice because of their ancestors.
soundnote 5y ago
You know how they used to bar and quota Jews from attending university? Association of American Medical Colleges, 2017: https://imgur.com/a/4fva6V2 https://imgur.com/a/4fva6V2
Siira 5y ago
Racism is a huge problem. Suppression of truth in the service of advancing a political agenda is also a huge problem. The latter is, indeed, a most convenient tool that the ruling elite has to leech off others. Look at any system where some people are exploited, and you’ll find an integral component is distorting the truth. Another point that is pertinent is that incentives matter a lot. A person who is by prejudice unable to, e.g., rent a house, is suffering an injustice, but it’s not like they can do much about it. A scientist, who is enjoying respect and prestige, on the other hand, can very easily be swayed by some rather small pressure to take up some politically expedient lies to preserve their lifestyle. So while the pressure on scientists might indeed be trivial compared to what minorities suffer, the effects of this pressure can be society-wide still.

Cthulhu_ 5y ago

Can you list some examples?

breakyerself 5y ago

I found all these studies showing that actual racism causes measurable disadvantages for people of color. Can you show me where antiracism causes anything close to a similar negative effect on society? [1] Police stop black drivers significantly more than white drivers when the sun's up and they can see the driver is black, but not at night when they can't see the drivers race. Meaning race is often the determining factor for why someone is pulled over or not. [2] Unarmed black people are 3.49 times as likely to be killed as unarmed white people. Local crime rates have zero effect on this statistic. [3] Black and white police use force at similar rates in white neightborhoods, but white cops use force significantly more than black cops when responding to calls in minority neighborhoods. [4] Police in oakland find contraband at the same rate regardless of race, but search black drivers 4x more often. [5] The more white a suspect appears to be the less likely police are to use force. The more black a suspect appears the more likely it is that police will use force. [6] Black police are more likely to be shot by their fellow officers than white police. [7] Oaklad police disproportionately handcuff blacks at stunning levels in all areas of the city. [8] In San Francisco, “although Black people accounted for less than 15 percent of all stops in 2015, they accounted for over 42 percent of all non-consent searches following stops.” This proved unwarranted: “Of all people searched without consent, Black and Hispanic people had the lowest ‘hit rates’ (i.e., the lowest rate of contraband recovered).” [9] The DOJ investigation into Ferguson PD, found “a pattern or practice of unlawful conduct within the Ferguson PD that violates the 1st, 4th, and 14th Amendments to the Constitution, and federal law.” The scathing report found that FPD was targeting black residents and treating them as revenue streams for the city by striving to continually increase the money brought in through fees and fines. [10] In Chicago, a 2016 report found that “black and Hispanic drivers were searched approximately four times as often as white drivers, yet Chicago PDs own data show that contraband was found on white drivers twice as often as black and Hispanic drivers.” [11]2014 ACLU analysis of Illinois DOT data found: “Black and Latino drivers are nearly twice as likely as white drivers to be asked during a routine traffic stop for ‘consent’ to have their car searched. Yet white motorists are 49% more likely than African American motorists to have contraband discovered during a consent search by law enforcement, and 56% more likely when compared to Latinos.” [12] Black people are more likely to be wrongfully convicted and more likely to be framed for a crime they didn't commit. [13] Black kids are more likely to be tried as an adult. [14] Black people get 20% longer prison sentences for the same crimes even controlling for criminal history. [15] Black students are more likely to be arrested at school. A function of increased security at predominantly black schools. Not because black students commit crimes at school at higher rates. [16] Security levels in schools are determined by how many black kids go to the school and not crime levels. [17] Predominantly black schools are chronically underfunded compared to predominantly white schools. [18] An identical resume with a white sounding name like Stephen or Susan is twice as likely to recieve a call for a job interview compared to the same resume with an ethnically black sounding name like Jamal or Latisha. [19] Minorities who alter their resumes to seem white get more job interviews. [20] Banks targeted black homeowners for predatory homeloans and refinancing in the lead up to the 2008 crisis. Causing black families to be disproportionately harmed by the forclosure crisis. [21] owner-occupied homes in black neighborhoods are undervalued by $48,000 per home on average, amounting to $156 billion in cumulative losses. This study controls for crime rates. Neighborhood amenities like schools, parks, walkability, and public transportation. The size and age of homes etc. [22] In an experiment landlords responding to emails treated Blacks, Arab males, Muslims, and single parents unfavorably. [23] Almost twice as many non-Hispanic Black children have lead levels at or above 2 micrograms per deciliter compared to non-Hispanic White children. [24] People of color are much more likely to live near polluters and breathe polluted air. People in poverty are exposed to more fine particulate matter than people living above poverty. “results at national, state, and county scales all indicate that non-Whites tend to be burdened disproportionately to Whites.” [25] Black children are taken into foster care at a disproportionately high rate, and stay in the system longer before they’re adopted or reunited with their parents. [1] https://www.nature.com/articles/s41562-020-0858-1 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41562-020-0858-1 [2] https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0141854 https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal... [3] https://www.nber.org/papers/w26774?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter#fromrss https://www.nber.org/papers/w26774?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_me... [4] https://stanford.app.box.com/v/Data-for-Change https://stanford.app.box.com/v/Data-for-Change [5] https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/1948550616633505 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/194855061663350... [6] https://www.hks.harvard.edu/sites/default/files/centers/wiener/programs/pcj/files/Police-on-Police_Shootings_with_appendices.pdf https://www.hks.harvard.edu/sites/default/files/centers/wien... [7] https://sparq.stanford.edu/opd-reports https://sparq.stanford.edu/opd-reports [8] https://sfdistrictattorney.org/sites/default/files/Document/BRP_report.pdf https://sfdistrictattorney.org/sites/default/files/Document/... [9] https://www.justice.gov/sites/default/files/opa/press-releases/attachments/2015/03/04/ferguson_police_department_report.pdf https://www.justice.gov/sites/default/files/opa/press-releas... [10] https://chicagopatf.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/PATF_Final_Report_Executive_Summary_4_13_16-1.pdf https://chicagopatf.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/PATF_Fina... [11] https://www.aclu-il.org/en/press-releases/traffic-stop-data-shows-persistent-patterns-racial-bias-according-new-report https://www.aclu-il.org/en/press-releases/traffic-stop-data-... [12] https://www.law.umich.edu/special/exoneration/Documents/Race_and_Wrongful_Convictions.pdf https://www.law.umich.edu/special/exoneration/Documents/Race... [13] https://www.wnyc.org/story/black-kids-more-likely-be-tried-adults-cant-be-explained/ https://www.wnyc.org/story/black-kids-more-likely-be-tried-a... [14]https://www.ussc.gov/research/research-reports/demographic-differences-sentencing https://www.ussc.gov/research/research-reports/demographic-d... [15] https://www.edweek.org/ew/articles/2017/01/25/black-students-more-likely-to-be-arrested.html https://www.edweek.org/ew/articles/2017/01/25/black-students... [16] https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/06/160608180824.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/06/160608180824.h... [17] https://psmag.com/education/nonwhite-school-districts-get-23-billion-less-funding-than-white-ones https://psmag.com/education/nonwhite-school-districts-get-23... [18] https://www.nber.org/digest/sep03/w9873.html https://www.nber.org/digest/sep03/w9873.html [19] https://hbswk.hbs.edu/item/minorities-who-whiten-job-resumes-get-more-interviews https://hbswk.hbs.edu/item/minorities-who-whiten-job-resumes... [20] https://www.aclu.org/files/field_document/discrimlend_final.pdf https://www.aclu.org/files/field_document/discrimlend_final.... [21] https://www.brookings.edu/research/devaluation-of-assets-in-black-neighborhoods/ https://www.brookings.edu/research/devaluation-of-assets-in-... [22] https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0166046217302612 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S01660... [23] https://www.publichealthpost.org/databyte/racial-gaps-in-childrens-lead-levels/ https://www.publichealthpost.org/databyte/racial-gaps-in-chi... [24] https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2018/02/the-trump-administration-finds-that-environmental-racism-is-real/554315/ https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2018/02/the-tru... [25] https://www.mynews13.com/fl/orlando/news/2021/07/14/foster-care-race?cid=id-app15_m-share_s-web_cmp-app_launch_august2020_c-producer_posts_po-organic https://www.mynews13.com/fl/orlando/news/2021/07/14/foster-c...

Ygg2 5y ago

That's a hot take? Didn't CHAZ had black only zones. It's just racism but with a different bent.

user-the-name 5y ago
Racism is far more complicated than that. Giving an oppressed group a safe space is not the same as excluding that group. That is completely missing the point of why racism is a problem. Racism is not anything that takes race into account.
- voldacar 5y ago
  Your moral framing depends on language manipulation which in turn depends on who is able to most successfully wield power in the public square. Who decides who is part of an "oppressed group"? Challenge mode: your answer must not contain "we" And chaz was hardly a "safe space" as another comment pointed out. It also was not "given"
  - user-the-name 5y ago
    > Your moral framing depends on language manipulation What does this mean? This applies to every single moral judgement, and that is perfectly fine and normal. That is what morals are.
    - enchiridion 5y ago
      No, it doesn’t and it’s not. It is possible to reason about morals without subtlety deceitful language games. I’d also like to point out that your comment likely uses the very same tactics that GP is complaining about. Clearly when saying “manipulation”, GP meant that they are upset with language designed to foster a foregone conclusion. So you either: 1. Think that is acceptable, which it’s not. 2. Are changing the definition of “manipulation” to mean something more like “use”, which was clearly not intended here. Neither option is conducive to honest moral discourse. If you want to reinforce your current beliefs, go ahead and continue the same way. If you are interested in an honest debate, give GP the best interpretation possible, and see if you position still holds up. As a final point of why these language games are not conducive to honest debate, you did not address the latter points that GP brought up.

littlestymaar 5y ago

It's not a “hot take” at all, it is like the official of the GOP, and have been so for quite some time. Actually it is a pretty common trope from concervatives talking about anti-racism. For instance in France this argument dates at least since the 80s (your sentence is almost an exact translation of a bullet point in the agenda of the Front National in 1986 (far right and Holocaust deniers, cofounded by a former waffer SS French volunteer, by the way), which changed name to Rassemblement National and grew to become the second most powerful political party in France).

refurb 5y ago
Ok you’ve told me other groups use it but you haven’t refuted the argument in the least.
- littlestymaar 5y ago
  Indeed I didn't, for good reasons[1] my comment was aiming at the claim that this commonplace was a “hot take”. [1] it's not even an argument to beging with, it's a cheap attempt at decredibilizing the opponent with an inflamatory comparison. You wouldn't lose time to discuss the claim that “conservatives are nazis” or anything like that would you? If you're genuinely interested in an intelligent discussion about that slogan, just search on your favorite search engine: many people have actually discussed it in depth and showed how stupid it is (which is something I deeply admire, since Brandolini's law is very real).
  - refurb 5y ago
    So you've used two tactics now: 1) try and smear people who make this statement by saying "bad people" use it too and now 2) saying that the statement is so "clear false" that it's not even worth trying to refute. Color me skeptical. And i would certainly refute that "conservatives are Nazis" is someone made that statement. It's pretty easily falsifiable. Can you falsify the OP's statement?
    - littlestymaar 5y ago

BatteryMountain 5y ago

Painfully obvious from looking at America from the outside.

coldtea 5y ago

Superficially yes, but I think modern anti-racism is basically classism: a tool privileged whites use to shame and dominate lower classes, and to signal and fight status wars between them. Which is also why accusation of "privilege" more often than not comes from whites (and a smaller assortment of careerists in activism, journalism, and academia) themselves actually privileged career/money/status-wise, and is non-ironically directed towards people less privileged that them! Then again, old-style racism was basically classism too: a way justify keeping blacks as slaves or, after the civil war, as cheap laborers. It's only after blacks became integrated that racism became an ideology apart from serving an active function of maintaining privilege (and by then, the ideology was shared with far fewer, the kind of "white power" scum that are quite rare statistically speaking).

soundnote 5y ago

Cold take: It is regular racism, just directed at acceptable targets.