9 ms·

There is no science if doubts aren’t allowed.

by charlieyu1 5y ago

MiroF 5y ago
- q1w2 5y ago
  These policies are punitive - they are not based on science. There is no science demonstrating that withholding unemployment reduces transmission rates.
  - MiroF 5y ago
    There is social science indicating that employment mandates increase vaccination rates. There is science indicating that vaccines reduce transmission rates. Regardless, this is a different point than the original comment.
    - MrRiddle 5y ago
      > vaccines reduce transmission rates With current experience from UK and France, this line (even though true up to a point) is irrelevant.
egberts1 5y ago
There is no science if the facts are not allowed either.
- charlieyu1 5y ago
  So what are the facts actually? I’m not following covid news 24/7 but at least I’ve heard that developers of such vaccines refuse to release data on its effectiveness
  - Daishiman 5y ago
    Then you've heard wrong. /r/covid19 has torrents of papers by researchers from all over the globe showing the effectiveness of vaccines.
    - egberts1 5y ago
      so we did not have “breakthrough” (vaccinated folks catching COVID-19) cases on the Delta-variant of COVID-19 vaccine, right?
      - Daishiman 5y ago
        Why are you moving the conversation to something else? Breakthrough cases can be had while still dramatically reducing disease severity, transmissibility, hospitalizations, and chances of long COVID. All those things matter; all those are objectively improved by vaccination, even more by boosters. The only way you can actually ask this is by trying maliciously move the conversation to a nonsensical point. Neither myself nor anyone else has ever made the point that vaccines protect you completely, which is the entire point why even with vaccination there is still an objective to reduce case counts.
        egberts1 5y ago
        Perhaps it is amplified by the media’s poor choice of reductive medical terminologies: as in “prevent” vs. “largely prevent”. We both know that vaccine , in general, is intended to “greatly minimize risk”.
        Daishiman 5y ago
        I don't care as I actually read the source papers with published statistics on effectiveness metrics and followup meta-analises. Every mainstream medium is telling it loud and clear: 20-fold reduction in ICU admissions and deaths. There is nothing to debate here.
atoav 5y ago
Slight change: There is no science if reasonable doubts aren't allowed. The thing with this pandemic is, that the time where you could have a reasonable doubt in the vaccines are over for a while now. We vaccinated half of earths population. If there would have been horrible side effects they would have shown. The more data we gather the clearer the picture becomes and the less reasonable certain doubts become. The thing about doubt is that one can always doubt anything. You can doubt that a stone in your hand falls to the ground if you let it go, but no amount of doubt will change the outcome if you actually do it. Physical reality for the most part doesn't care for our feelings. If you are a brilliant physicist you could doubt is the explainations why the stone falls to the ground, but you cannot reasonably doubt the fact that it does accelerate towards the ground, because this is what is observed. You could have the feeling the universe is holographic and all this falling does not occur, however if you cannot create an experiment that would falsify existing, simpler explainations it remains just a interesting feeling and not a reasonable doubt.
- commandlinefan 5y ago
  > there would have been horrible side effects they would have shown If they actually protected you against the virus that would have shown too, though.
  - lalaland1125 5y ago
    The vaccines do protect people. Look at the data. Vaccinated people are like 5-20x less likely to die or get hospitalized.
    - bell-cot 5y ago
      Many people seem to expect "vaccinated" to mean "enjoy utter immunity to". Kinda like some World of EverDungeon video game, where having the Amulet of Foozaz makes you utterly immune to any & all poisons. Anti-vaxer's love to play up that meme. A better analogy would be the body armor that Marines wear in combat zones. No Marine is stupid enough to believe that wearing body armor will make him completely immune to bullets. And certainly no Marine is stupid enough to say "I won't wear it, because it doesn't make me completely immune to bullets".
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

There is no science if doubts aren’t allowed.

MiroF 5y ago

q1w2 5y ago
These policies are punitive - they are not based on science. There is no science demonstrating that withholding unemployment reduces transmission rates.
- MiroF 5y ago
  There is social science indicating that employment mandates increase vaccination rates. There is science indicating that vaccines reduce transmission rates. Regardless, this is a different point than the original comment.
  - MrRiddle 5y ago
    > vaccines reduce transmission rates With current experience from UK and France, this line (even though true up to a point) is irrelevant.

egberts1 5y ago

There is no science if the facts are not allowed either.

charlieyu1 5y ago
So what are the facts actually? I’m not following covid news 24/7 but at least I’ve heard that developers of such vaccines refuse to release data on its effectiveness
- Daishiman 5y ago
  Then you've heard wrong. /r/covid19 has torrents of papers by researchers from all over the globe showing the effectiveness of vaccines.
  - egberts1 5y ago
    so we did not have “breakthrough” (vaccinated folks catching COVID-19) cases on the Delta-variant of COVID-19 vaccine, right?
    - Daishiman 5y ago
      Why are you moving the conversation to something else? Breakthrough cases can be had while still dramatically reducing disease severity, transmissibility, hospitalizations, and chances of long COVID. All those things matter; all those are objectively improved by vaccination, even more by boosters. The only way you can actually ask this is by trying maliciously move the conversation to a nonsensical point. Neither myself nor anyone else has ever made the point that vaccines protect you completely, which is the entire point why even with vaccination there is still an objective to reduce case counts.
      - egberts1 5y ago
        Perhaps it is amplified by the media’s poor choice of reductive medical terminologies: as in “prevent” vs. “largely prevent”. We both know that vaccine , in general, is intended to “greatly minimize risk”.
        Daishiman 5y ago
        I don't care as I actually read the source papers with published statistics on effectiveness metrics and followup meta-analises. Every mainstream medium is telling it loud and clear: 20-fold reduction in ICU admissions and deaths. There is nothing to debate here.

atoav 5y ago

Slight change: There is no science if reasonable doubts aren't allowed. The thing with this pandemic is, that the time where you could have a reasonable doubt in the vaccines are over for a while now. We vaccinated half of earths population. If there would have been horrible side effects they would have shown. The more data we gather the clearer the picture becomes and the less reasonable certain doubts become. The thing about doubt is that one can always doubt anything. You can doubt that a stone in your hand falls to the ground if you let it go, but no amount of doubt will change the outcome if you actually do it. Physical reality for the most part doesn't care for our feelings. If you are a brilliant physicist you could doubt is the explainations why the stone falls to the ground, but you cannot reasonably doubt the fact that it does accelerate towards the ground, because this is what is observed. You could have the feeling the universe is holographic and all this falling does not occur, however if you cannot create an experiment that would falsify existing, simpler explainations it remains just a interesting feeling and not a reasonable doubt.

commandlinefan 5y ago
> there would have been horrible side effects they would have shown If they actually protected you against the virus that would have shown too, though.
- lalaland1125 5y ago
  The vaccines do protect people. Look at the data. Vaccinated people are like 5-20x less likely to die or get hospitalized.
  - bell-cot 5y ago
    Many people seem to expect "vaccinated" to mean "enjoy utter immunity to". Kinda like some World of EverDungeon video game, where having the Amulet of Foozaz makes you utterly immune to any & all poisons. Anti-vaxer's love to play up that meme. A better analogy would be the body armor that Marines wear in combat zones. No Marine is stupid enough to believe that wearing body armor will make him completely immune to bullets. And certainly no Marine is stupid enough to say "I won't wear it, because it doesn't make me completely immune to bullets".

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]