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In other festive COVID news from Canada: >Canada's Justin Trudeau on the unvaccinated: >“They don’t believe in science/progress and are very often misogynisti

• charlieyu1 5y ago
  There is no science if doubts aren’t allowed.
  • MiroF 5y ago
    • q1w2 5y ago
      These policies are punitive - they are not based on science. There is no science demonstrating that withholding unemployment reduces transmission rates.
      • MiroF 5y ago
        There is social science indicating that employment mandates increase vaccination rates. There is science indicating that vaccines reduce transmission rates. Regardless, this is a different point than the original comment.
        • MrRiddle 5y ago
          > vaccines reduce transmission rates With current experience from UK and France, this line (even though true up to a point) is irrelevant.
  • egberts1 5y ago
    There is no science if the facts are not allowed either.
    • charlieyu1 5y ago
      So what are the facts actually? I’m not following covid news 24/7 but at least I’ve heard that developers of such vaccines refuse to release data on its effectiveness
      • Daishiman 5y ago
        Then you've heard wrong. /r/covid19 has torrents of papers by researchers from all over the globe showing the effectiveness of vaccines.
        • egberts1 5y ago
          so we did not have “breakthrough” (vaccinated folks catching COVID-19) cases on the Delta-variant of COVID-19 vaccine, right?
          • Daishiman 5y ago
            Why are you moving the conversation to something else? Breakthrough cases can be had while still dramatically reducing disease severity, transmissibility, hospitalizations, and chances of long COVID. All those things matter; all those are objectively improved by vaccination, even more by boosters. The only way you can actually ask this is by trying maliciously move the conversation to a nonsensical point. Neither myself nor anyone else has ever made the point that vaccines protect you completely, which is the entire point why even with vaccination there is still an objective to reduce case counts.
            • egberts1 5y ago
              Perhaps it is amplified by the media’s poor choice of reductive medical terminologies: as in “prevent” vs. “largely prevent”. We both know that vaccine , in general, is intended to “greatly minimize risk”.
  • atoav 5y ago
    Slight change: There is no science if reasonable doubts aren't allowed. The thing with this pandemic is, that the time where you could have a reasonable doubt in the vaccines are over for a while now. We vaccinated half of earths population. If there would have been horrible side effects they would have shown. The more data we gather the clearer the picture becomes and the less reasonable certain doubts become. The thing about doubt is that one can always doubt anything. You can doubt that a stone in your hand falls to the ground if you let it go, but no amount of doubt will change the outcome if you actually do it. Physical reality for the most part doesn't care for our feelings. If you are a brilliant physicist you could doubt is the explainations why the stone falls to the ground, but you cannot reasonably doubt the fact that it does accelerate towards the ground, because this is what is observed. You could have the feeling the universe is holographic and all this falling does not occur, however if you cannot create an experiment that would falsify existing, simpler explainations it remains just a interesting feeling and not a reasonable doubt.
    • commandlinefan 5y ago
      > there would have been horrible side effects they would have shown If they actually protected you against the virus that would have shown too, though.
      • lalaland1125 5y ago
        The vaccines do protect people. Look at the data. Vaccinated people are like 5-20x less likely to die or get hospitalized.
        • bell-cot 5y ago
          Many people seem to expect "vaccinated" to mean "enjoy utter immunity to". Kinda like some World of EverDungeon video game, where having the Amulet of Foozaz makes you utterly immune to any & all poisons. Anti-vaxer's love to play up that meme. A better analogy would be the body armor that Marines wear in combat zones. No Marine is stupid enough to believe that wearing body armor will make him completely immune to bullets. And certainly no Marine is stupid enough to say "I won't wear it, because it doesn't make me completely immune to bullets".
  • deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
• iqanq 5y ago
  Here is the video source, in case someone doesn't believe that he said that (I didn't, at first): https://westernstandardonline.com/2021/12/trudeau-calls-the-unvaccinated-racist-and-misogynistic-extremists/ https://westernstandardonline.com/2021/12/trudeau-calls-the-...
• ekianjo 5y ago
  • simonh 5y ago
    No, they can believe what they want as far as I’m concerned. Completely physically excluding them from society is enough. If they want to ‘protect’ themselves from the vaccine they have that right, absolutely, but the rest of us also have the right to protect ourselves from them.
    • deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    • leereeves 5y ago
      Isn't the vaccine supposed to provide that protection from (catching Covid from) them?
      • ekianjo 5y ago
        It is, but some vaccinated people apparently have a hard time understanding how things work and who is actually at risk.
      • random314 5y ago
        Vaccines have an efficacy of 90% -not 100% and don't work for the immunocompromised and those who have sulphate allergies.
      • simonh 5y ago
        Unvaccinated people are a threat to the public on many grounds. Many of these points are already all over this discussion here, but you’re asking so here they are. Unvaccinated people with covid on average have the infection for longer and have higher viral loads, so they are more likely to spread the virus to others than vaccinated people are. They are much more likely to need hospitalisation, putting a burden on the health system which hurts health care workers, and uses up health care resources needed by others. People with non-covid illnesses, or people with covid because they can’t be vaccinated for various legitimate reasons, are dying in some cases because health care systems are so busy caring for sick or dying vax deniers with covid. So these people are a clear danger to the public, and our health care systems in particular. Their choices are putting unreasonable and unfair demands on health care workers, and even killing people.
• rayiner 5y ago
  My dad spent his life working in public health, including vaccinations. “Doesn’t believe in science and progress” and “very often misogynistic and racist” is how Trudeau would describe your typical villager in Asia or Africa—the people my dad spent a lifetime serving. But Trudeau’s unrelated moral crusades are utterly irrelevant to the issue of public health, and he’s deeply damaging the public health effort by trying to tie them together. This is public health 101. You don’t use health as a vehicle for ideological issues because that destroys trust. E.g. if your Muslim villager won’t see a female doctor you find a male doctor. If pregnant women in Bangladeshi villages don’t trust western educated doctors, you build referral relationships with traditional midwives. (That one is a true story.) Health is the first and last consideration.
  • q1w2 5y ago
    He's making the same mistake we see all over social media these days. The collective assumption that everyone who disagrees with any ONE popular narrative, must also disagree with ALL other popular narratives. Anti-vaxxers must also be climate change deniers and racists and anti-abortion, etc... It makes it easier to hate people you disagree with if they're fundamentally evil in all the same ways. It saves you from having to have discussions with them, from having to think for yourself, and from any ethical dilemma when you mistreat them.
    • Spivak 5y ago
      There’s more nuance to this than you’re portraying because wedge issues exist. Once groups take sides on an issue the predictive power of knowing what someone thinks on one issue implying their stance on every issue skyrockets. It’s not about thinking for yourself more than it’s a consequence of people being good at mounting a defense for their own ideas whatever they are or wherever they originate. The more “research” you do on an issue the more likely you’ll come away with nothing more than better arguments for your existing stance. And I’m not claiming to be above it, you can play this game with me too. I am exactly the bleeding heart snowflake liberal.
    • rayiner 5y ago
      It also doesn’t matter what people’s beliefs are. In my (Muslim) home country homosexuality and abortion are illegal. But they’re still entitled to public health services. For public health, and science more generally, to be trusted, it must be above all the other political, religious, etc., debates.
• moralestapia 5y ago
  >“They don’t believe in science/progress and are very often misogynistic and racist [...] Whew, hyperbole of the year.
  • q1w2 5y ago
    Lumping all the people you hate makes, and assuming they all share all the same negative characteristics, makes it easy to hate just anyone who doesn't agree with absolutely everything you say. It's just another modern flavor of intolerance and authoritarianism.
• kstenerud 5y ago
  Edit: Whoops, Privacy Badger had deleted the embedded video. Check that if you're not seeing it. OK, so he said that we all know people who are hesitant to get the vaccine and we'll be considerate of them, but there is also a small group that is unequivocally opposed to the vaccine (who don't believe in science, who are often racist, mysoginist etc). About them we have to make a choice: Do we tolerate them, or do we say look, most people are vaccinated, we want to go back to the things we like doing, and these people are blocking us. So yeah, throwing in the racist and mysoginist thing was in poor taste. Hardly Watergate material, though. Edit 2: Whoops, deleted the video link, but it's already in another comment. https://westernstandardonline.com/2021/12/trudeau-calls-the-unvaccinated-racist-and-misogynistic-extremists/ https://westernstandardonline.com/2021/12/trudeau-calls-the-... Edit 3: I had originally said there was no video to look at. Please don't downvote the respondent.
  • pen2l 5y ago
    There is a video in your first link. Trudeau does in fact say that, though in French (and as someone who speaks French and has just listened to the first-hand recording, yes, the translation is more or less correct). I'm inclined to give him more leeway than the rest of the commenters here, as I think the unvaccinated do need to be censured, and in developed countries where information is abundant suggesting that it is safe and everyone should take it, it is increasingly unforgivable and intolerable for folks to be unvaccinated. As someone below quite aptly said: "If they want to ‘protect’ themselves from the vaccine they have that right, absolutely, but the rest of us also have the right to protect ourselves from them."
    • throwaway73838 5y ago
• Spivak 5y ago
  • slibhb 5y ago
    Virtually everyone I know voted for Biden, doesn't hate black people or women, and is tired of covid measures. The virus isn't going anywhere, we're all vaccinated, it's time to move on. Even if the 10-20% of the population that isn't vaccinated gets vaccinated it would not make the virus go away. There is a optimal amount of risk like there is an optimal amount of dirt in my home. Trudeau's rhetoric is shocking. Biden would never stoop to that level nor would have Obama. It's "deplorables" all over again and in addition to being cruel it's poor politics.
    • bradlys 5y ago
      Okay? But this isn’t about your liberal vaccinated friends. This is about people who aren’t vaccinated…
      • slibhb 5y ago
        "My liberal friends" show that this is not a wedge issue as the previous poster suggested. They are "anti-lockdown" and to a large extent "anti-mask" but they don't hate women, blacks, or science.
        • bradlys 5y ago
          But the point is that anti-vaccine people tend to be the hateful ones. Vaccines are a wedge issue. Lockdowns aren’t as much - if you’re already vaccinated. Honestly - almost no one really disagrees with that statement either. We all know it might not be helpful to get people vaccinated but we also know it’s true.
          • moralestapia 5y ago
            >But the point is that anti-vaccine people tend to be the hateful ones. Hi Trudeau! Listen, the issue here is that you cannot clump two uncorrelated issues together, and even if they were correlated, it wouldn't be fair as for sure there's people that (please sit down, this may me quite shocking to you) do not want to get the vaccine BUT are also not part of whatever group you refer to as "the hateful ones".
• random314 5y ago
  • kif 5y ago
    This person gives very good arguments why antivaxxers exist: https://twitter.com/YossiGestetner https://twitter.com/YossiGestetner Even he admits he doesn't believe stuff he writes sometimes, but he does it to show why there's dissent.
    • random314 5y ago
      I am not going to read his entire Twitter history. His top pinned tweet did not age well at all! So no good arguments at all!
• joelbondurant0 5y ago