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Ask HN: Nerds of HN, did you overcome loneliness?

96 points by TekMol 5y ago

As Paul Graham wrote in his essay "Why nerds are unpopular", it is hard for us tech oriented people to build a great social life. Because our minds constantly revolve around tech and science. Has anyone here ever made good progress in connecting with other people? If so, which approaches or resources were helpful to you?

_8j50 5y ago
I didn't but I have to learn to accept responsibility. That said most nerds I know of can make friends with other nerds just fine. It's not good to hide behind the nerd shield for any social or mental health issues because it can prevent us from identifying and resolving the underlying cause.
kioshix 5y ago
I've kinda just accepted that I'm alone. I don't really feel that lonely, but I'd love to have a friend or two. The few friends I've had have sort of just drifted away I guess. I can be social, but I prefer being by myself most of the time. And in my country theres an unwritten rule of never talking to strangers, if you do; you're some kind of weirdo. So that doesn't help either!
- TekMol 5y ago
  Do countries really differ in this regard? Wich country are you, where it makes you a weirdo when you talk to strangers? I think it depends on how you do it. If you sit down in a cafe and start talking endlessyl to the person at the next table without invitation, then that is probably weird everywhere. Imho, the "not weird" way is to sit down and while having eye contact (usually people look at you when you sit down close by) say something very short like "Hi" or "Is this table free?". And then only continue if you get an interested, friendly reaction. Would that make you a weirdo in your country?
  - kioshix 5y ago
    To my knowledge, yes. I'm Norwegian, and we're usually sort of reserved and private. Obviously it varies, the older generation is more open. Even small things like striking up a conversation with someone while waiting for the bus is 'frowned upon', people keep to themselves and mind their own business. People who talk to you at bus stops are 'weirdos' (very over-simplified, but that's the general opinion). I'd love to live in a place where it's more normal to just strike up a conversation with someone. I'm not usually the one to start a conversation, but if someone does, I'll usually be fine with it. Oh, and don't even get me started on eye contact; that's some scary shuff! How does even eye contact work? I have no idea...
nvahalik 5y ago
Reading "Just Listen" by Mark Goulston was helpful. But really, developing a habit of listening. I think one of the things that's hard is that we are so used to always working, going, learning, building. We measure and improve. We commit, run, test, and deploy. We focus in on a particular thing and get really good at it. But people aren't like that. They have feelings and emotions. They have a past and a history. They have fears and doubts. They have dreams and things that drive them. Some of those things which we cannot relate to. We can do all the right things and still end up getting hurt. They often don't respond the way we think and unlike compiled code, they can misunderstand what's being said or what's going on. So, listen, ask questions, and treat others better than you'd treat yourself.
paulcole 5y ago
> it is hard for us tech oriented people to build a great social life. Because our minds constantly revolve around tech and science. This is not true and it’s a self-defeating attitude to create an excuse for why you haven’t achieved what you want. Being interested in technology and science don’t prevent you from developing social skills. Develop those skills the same way you developed your tech/science skills: learning, practice, and feedback. If you don’t know where to start: Talk to people and really listen what they have to say. Ask them questions. Read books. Date more. Go to therapy.
- igetspam 5y ago
  Agreed. These generalizations are self defeating and wrong. Not everyone is born with social skills but they can be learned. I had a teacher who went to school with Bill Gates. He was apparently impossible to connect with. It wasn't until it became necessary for the success of Microsoft that he really started to work on it. He paid through the nose for coaches and leveraged mentors. Now he has a stage presence and can command a room. While he's a billionaire of an example, the same thing can work for anyone. I was listening to an Arrested DevOps podcast the other day and the host was talking about how approached public speaking the way he learned new tools or tech. Before every talk, he picked one item to try and improve. Sometimes it was gesturing, so his movements could be picked up by the camera. Sometimes it was something else. Identify what success means, break it down into measurable components and work on then one at a time until they're second nature. Or be alone and be okay with it.
bilal4hmed 5y ago
Stuff that helped me: Realize that any relationship requires effort from both sides. When was the last time you reached out to someone, checked in etc. Talking to people who are not from my industry also helped me gain insight as to how others think, feel etc. More well rounded, have people who are like you but seek others who are different Hobbies, Volunteer efforts have been the best ways for me to gain more friends
- chousuke 5y ago
  How do you find things that you can put effort into? And even if I had something to put effort into, how do you actually do that? I pretty much constantly feel like I have no idea what I actually want to do, and when I think about possibly intentionally doing something, it feels "fake" to me. On top of that there's a strong "anti-motivation" to just do nothing. My brain seems to offer no assistance in figuring out what to do even after I manage to get something started (it often does the opposite), so it usually leads nowhere.
  - bilal4hmed 5y ago
    I relate to that, I ran in to analysis paralysis phase and found myself wanting to do everything. So I wrote down a few things I wanted to do such as contribute code to OSS, volunteer at events, better stock / financial planning research etc. Then I picked up the top 3 and did something small such as check in code or read code a few hours on a Saturday, find a an activity using Facebook ( you can replace with any other website but I found good luck with FB ), pick two reddit thread and READ thoroughly. I gave each one of them two or three tries and then determined to continue with the item or discard and move on to next. For the social part or the "anti-motivation" , I would often times find my mind going "this is a waste, bail out and head home, relax". I learnt to catch that feeling right at the beginning and thinking about "this is how I grow, this is how I meet new people, learn a new skill, overcome a fear" and then roll on to meet my commitment. This method, combined with strict boundaries around time, trial and error has helped me tremendously. I am open to suggestions if others have faced this, but this is what worked with me. Small steps, a lot of time and patience with myself, rinse & repeat. Hopefully it helps. The most important part is to try, show up, attempt...that itself is half the battle.
hughrr 5y ago
Meetup.com. Sign up for some random shit and go out and do stuff. Edit: just a warning. Some of the things you go to will be crap or full of weirdos and you won't get on with people at some of them. That's fine; they won't remember you and you won't remember them and you never have to go again if you didn't like it. Which makes it even cooler.
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jplr8922 5y ago
By trying to bond with people on an emotional level rather than an intellectual one. After all, do you want to *be right*, or do you want to connect? At some point I realized that it made no sense to complain about loneliness because I am a brainy type AND simultaneously refuse to engage with other's emotions because they are not brainy as I am. The book which helped me the most is *non violent communication*. Its like an universal protocol, but still filter the bullshit. edit: Of course, as other said, growing out of your mental tendency takes years and is still a work in progress. But with this type of thing the way is the destination.
- czbond 5y ago
  I do think there is a space in between. Yes, connecting with most people is hard because many can be feelers, highly emotional, dramatic, irrational..... we're in different universes. I look at them as though they are as alien as they think I am. I, personally, cannot bond at an emotional level at all - and must bond by problem solving. I don't mesh with most - and frankly don't care. Saying that, I've found that my best friends have been "intelligent feelers". They like that I can live in the future rather than the "now", think probabilistically, make decisions detached from emotion, and absorb information. I like that they help me become a bit closer to human. To be more accepting of people, to lighten up, and to entertain wider swaths of humans silliness as normal. What worked for me - is finding people that pass my "personal filter" and then solving some kind of issue with them. (crisis, family, work, charity, whatever)
- racl101 5y ago
  > it made no sense to complain about loneliness because I am a brainy type AND simultaneously refuse to engage with other's emotions because they are not brainy as I am. Reminds me of a funny story years ago: I remember talking to a guy at work who complained about girls avoiding him like the plague, and they only talked to him when they had to cause he was an IT guy. But sure enough, if you observed him for a few minutes, it was exactly like that SNL skit with Jimmy Fallon, the guy would berate and/or belittle coworkers for not knowing about technology as much as he did, even though it's not really their job. The guy pretty much dried up the vagina. And the worst part is that I tried to explain it to him and he just could not comprehend with all his intelligence, the notion that talking down to people just isn't sexy.
not1ofU 5y ago
Quit IT for a few years and worked in pubs. Maybe not for everyone though.
hnsanket 5y ago
Still trying. Graduated in the pandemic, started working remotely. Moved to a new place where I don't have any close friends, just two acquaintances. I've met my team in-person only once. It's hard to get a car right now. It's hard to be alone and stay motivated. But I know I'm not alone and I'll be okay.
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Torwald 5y ago
Two ressources that I found most helpful: https://stevepavlina.com/?s=relationships https://stevepavlina.com/?s=relationships https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/4553092-real-time-relationships https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/4553092-real-time-relati...
monster_group 5y ago
>> it is hard for us tech oriented people to build a great social life. This stereotype needs to die. For some reason, tech people have a superiority complex about their intelligence and inferiority complex about their social intelligence (neither of which is true from what I have observed). Tech people are normal people.
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- Grustaf 5y ago
  Not sure that's true. I would be surprised if computer nerds weren't significantly further along the autism spectrum than average.
  - aqme28 5y ago
    I think there's a correlation, but it's not even particularly strong. I know plenty of socially well-adjusted programmers.
    - HPsquared 5y ago
      That's the set of programmers you know personally - this sample is biased towards more socially-engaged programmers (the more social contacts they have, the more likely you are to know them).
      - panda-giddiness 5y ago
        Amusingly, most people are biased towards engaging with people more sociable than they [1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friendship_paradox https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friendship_paradox
        HPsquared 5y ago
        It's like how most online content is produced by a vocal minority. Most informal "random samples" are not representative of the population as a whole.
kijin 5y ago
A great social life doesn't require tons of friends or stereotypical social activities. Any circle of friends and/or family whom you are happy to be around is more than enough, even if it's only one person! So cherish what relationships you might already have. Be loyal to them. For loneliness relief, you might not need much more beyond that.
briancl 5y ago
I spent a lot of time working on myself, first. For me, that looked like understanding past trauma, and then doing the work: meditation, journaling, fixing diet and exercise, sleeping better, and enhancing existing relationships with friends and family. Then, I felt more comfortable knowing myself and being my authentic self. With that foundation in place, I put real energy into expanding my communities. I put myself out there. I asked people to hang out, and I shared my struggles. I was more comfortable being vulnerable. There are other tactics that have worked. I introduced like-minded people to one another and let those connections grow on their own. I spend time on touching base. When I read an article or see a tweet that a distant friend might enjoy, I send it. And ask how they are doing. I lean into curiosity about others. Ask people probing questions about their lives, hopes, fears.
- alexpetralia 5y ago
  "When I read an article or see a tweet that a distant friend might enjoy, I send it." This is also a trick I commonly employ. I rekindle our common interests with things I'm learning or reading and it is serves as a great launch point for discussion when we reconnect. I've affectionately earned a reputation among my friends as a "spammer", but perhaps that is better than "absentee"!
  - User23 5y ago
    In general communications with your more distant friends have considerably higher Shannon entropy than communications with close friends, for obvious reasons. Which means that often it's a real treat to get messages like that.
vbezhenar 5y ago
I did not. And watching back at my life, I’d say, I’d be better not trying to do so. I don’t need social life, but I felt self-imposed pressure to participate which leads to nowhere. It’s better to admit that I don’t need social life and social life does not want to have me around and move on.
Grustaf 5y ago
Pick up a hobby, like climbing, skateboarding, basketball, diving or whatever and you will be meeting people regularly and frequently.
- rtkaratekid 5y ago
  Yeah I was going to say this. A hobby that gets you out of the door and interacting with people not through a screen helps a lot. From there you can work on your social skills with this helpful buffer of the shared enjoyment of an activity with other people.
- istinetz 5y ago
  I went to a climbing gym for a year, several times a week. Never had a longer conversation with anyone I wasn't already friends with; not that I tried that hard. I'm not sure how I'd start a friendship there.
  - Grustaf 5y ago
    Yes perhaps climbing (or skateboarding) isn't the best example, since it's easy to just climb along by yourself. Group activities like courses would be the best really.
itg 5y ago
I honestly don't know. At best you're going to get trite answers such as join a club or get involved in a hobby. In my experience, you make transient acquaintances and still end up feeling lonely.
jeffrwells 5y ago
I came to realize at the age of 30 that I am actually an extrovert Being a Computer Science grad / software engineer and on the quieter side, I always labeled myself as an introvert. But I more recently identified that I get a lot of energy from talking to the right people, even if I’m not loud and gregarious like your textbook extrovert. The main thing is I only get energy from talking to interesting people about interesting things, and I now see that as a positive, instead of hating myself for not meeting some unrealistic standard of being able to engage with boring people over small talk or trivial matters
- siva7 5y ago
  Thanks for pointing this out. I made the same realization at that age and have since then shifted my career more toward people instead of code.
- throwaway4aday 5y ago
  Is this the secret reality of extroversion/introversion? I'll have to think about this for a bit but looking back at the encounters I've had with extroverts, they're mostly just good at smalltalk, jokes and BS. They can sometimes be fun but can also be extremely tiring to be around if you're not in the mood for that type of engagement. On the other hand, I know a lot of introverts who are extremely talkative when discussing their area of interest or any other deep conversation. I'll have to be mindful about noticing if I actually do get tired of social interaction the same way with "introverts" and "extroverts". Thank you for this new perspective.
  - HeyLaughingBoy 5y ago
    Are you sure those people were extroverts? I am most definitely not an extrovert, but I'm fine with "smalltalk, jokes and general BS" when I have to be. i.e., if I'm trying to be sociable, or to meet someone, or just not be a party pooper. It's not my normal state, it's just me trying to not be an asshole.
- chousuke 5y ago
  I suspect I'm similar; I think I actually like engaging with people whenever I get the chance to do so; I just have no idea how to get my anxiety out of the way so the opportunities are very rare.
rektide 5y ago
Heads up there was a thread on men's loneliness yesterday, on an article which cited some of how men often are career/interest focused (among other noteables). https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29743613 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29743613 (14 hours, 7 comments)
danrl 5y ago
Clear distinction between loneliness and solitude and when I needed or wanted each of which and when not was helpful. The times you want neither are the moments you want to engage in social activities, even approaching people circumstances allowing, without it feeling forced upon you by yourself.
logicalmonster 5y ago
Without being insulting to anybody, one of the best things you can do for your social life (not to mention health, and even finances) is work on your fitness for these (and many other reasons). * You will gain a lot of confidence in social situations. Going to a gathering as one of the fittest people there feels a lot less anxiety-inducing than entering as the overweight person. Trying to date while in shape is an entirely different experience than trying to find somebody when you're not. * Finding an exercise you enjoy gives you an outlet for pent up stress, making you less anxious in other areas of your life. * Finding some sport or activity you can participate in gives you numerous opportunities to join with clubs and make activity buddies.
- HPsquared 5y ago
  Social skill itself is also akin to a muscle - it gets better with use. I assign myself "social exercises" much like physical exercises in order to keep "socially fit".
bena 5y ago
I got married. Seriously though, I'm mostly comfortable with solitude so it's never been a huge issue with me. I like making, I like tinkering, I like doing what I want when I want. I can keep myself entertained. I also realized this about myself, so I stopped pushing myself to expand my social circles. That's to say I don't like people. I do. I like playing games with people, going to movies, hanging out, etc. But I can go weeks before feeling the desire for social interaction (outside what office life provides). Whereas, I'm done with most social engagements in a few hours even on my most outgoing days. That's my best attempt at answering the title on its face. I overcame it by realizing, like BatManuel claims: "[I am] lone." However, as to the question further asked in the body: I've leaned into myself. I allow myself to be. I've learned that people only care that you care about them. Look for the "cool" first. There's probably something you like in almost everything. Or at least interesting. Everyone wants to be interesting, so be interested.
mind-blight 5y ago
I strongly recommend dance classes (especially partner dances like tango or salsa). You get exercise, learn physical and verbal communication, become comfortable with awkward mistakes and social failures, and meet lots of new people. Rotating partners every few minutes helps you leftover both dance and social skills. Each person is different, do every partner is different. Sometimes, you just don't click and that's ok. You remember the people you did enjoy dancing with and make sure to grab a few dances later
- kukkeliskuu 5y ago
  I second this. This was the key for me. However, try to find a teacher that teaches basic technique (leading-following, body consciousness etc.) instead of step sequences. Or better yet, take private lessons. The step sequences are a bad way for brainy people to learn how to dance.
ramsundhar20 5y ago
Have made spending time with my kid as the first and foremost.
irateswami 5y ago
Honestly, I just prefer being alone. I find that I get all my needs for social interaction through work and family, and even that can be too much. I have to spend large swaths of the day just being by myself, and I typically use that time for the things I want to do; reading books, learning Russian, trying new technologies. These are all solitary pursuits, and I like that I can do them in my own way at my own pace. I guess my roundabout way of answering the question is that I simply got comfortable being with myself. I like me, I think I'm pretty cool. I know I'm not perfect but I have a lot of self love. Combine that with the desire and grit to always be working towards self improvement, plus a wife and kids, and I find that my day is filled to the brim with joy, love, and excitement.
- eatbitseveryday 5y ago
  > I have to spend large swaths of the day just being by myself > plus a wife and kids I find, since having a larger immediate family, I have few opportunities to be by myself. Are your kids older? Does your spouse put more time into daily things or the kids?
  - irateswami 5y ago
    I have three young children. My wife understands my introversion and that I need time to myself. We have a sort of agreement, she could be a stay at home mom but she also is going to take the majority of the child-rearing, I make and manage the money in our home. One of the reasons I love working from home is that I actually spend more time with my kids. It's not a chore and I don't have to set aside specific time to do so, it just happens organically. What has helped tremendously is outsourcing a number of chores. I've hired people to clean my house, maintain the yard, etc and it's really freed up more time. Now I have plenty of bandwidth to devote to family, along with all my other hobbies and intellectual pursuits.
odshoifsdhfs 5y ago
a) stop calling yourself a nerd b) your mind doesn't 'constantly revolve around tech and science.', you are just bad at other things and dismiss them or want to feel superior. Normal Relationships don't revolve around a single topic they agree on c) if you are lonely, it isn't because you are a nerd (heck, being nerdy is even popular now), if because of your lack of social skills and do nothing to improve them d) get the fuck out of the house and interact with people. Gym, bar, supermarket, sports league, hobby place, dog park, etc. Just because the person you meet doesn't have an opinion on linux vs mac vs windows, or if Pluto is or isn't a planet, doesn't mean they aren't interesting/know interesting topics. You are not special or better because you 'pursue' science (sorry for the negative tone, but is needed, all the 'nerds' I see that are lonely are a result of putting science or correctness or tech as the highest thing in life, and being condescending to other's interests, which makes they not really relatable, and thus lonely)
Fire-Dragon-DoL 5y ago
I might have done this unconsciously, but in my teenagers years I bond with others over videogames (couch gaming or chat about games). Made some good friends (really good). Then I changed country and made friends of programming (the most nerd side of my passion). Made some good friends that way too. The teenagers years were harder, it took a while to bond. I had two very good friends but lost one since he took a very different path. And my actual friends were not in school with me, so my life was miserable while in school and sometimes great over the weekend. I did a lot of "self analysis" (a lot of thinking about myself). This is something I did instinctively, I didn't study anything about it, but it helped dramatically. I turned out very happy and satisfied though, so in that mess, something must have worked! But I did meet many nerdy people myself and made friends with (including a wife), so I'd be surprised if it's not possible to do the same. The biggest struggle so far is that we can't find other families with nerd parents, now that we have kids. All the families we are friends with are all into hiking. Luckily, kids give plenty to talk about.
bag_boy 5y ago
It’s easier to connect with people when you realize you don’t have to share the same passions - they just have to be passionate about something.
habibur 5y ago
What worked for me : Get married, have children and be happy. The children will ultimately grow up, but by then I just feel happy being alone.
pictur 5y ago
What does it take to identify someone as a nerd?
trabant00 5y ago
If you're really interested in how things work there's no easier way to engage with people. Just talk to them about what they do (not necessarily for a living). Most people are lonely, even the married ones with 3 children, and are just dying to share their thoughts and passions. You have to be genuinely curious though, if you just want to prove how you know everything already you will get a negative reaction. The results will guide you.
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siva7 5y ago
So what do you do when someone asks you about your profession, then they say "ohh poor boy, must be some lonely nerd". Do you just nod with your head because you believe that crap? I've seen this attitude over and over again. Change your attitude towards yourself.
jcpst 5y ago
I grew up awkward and introverted, with awkward and introverted parents. When I finished college and moved to a new city, I intentionally put myself in situations where I had to socialize. I created a Couchsurfing account and hosted people from time to time (circa 2008-2010). I also joined a few meetups here and there, volunteered at a soup kitchen… Over time, exposure to these social settings helped reduce my anxiety around them, and I picked up (probably the hard way). I’m immuno-compromised, so the pandemic has been lonely a number of times, as I tend to be more cautious then the average person. I feel for people wanting to make this change in their life now but are protecting themselves.
Case81 5y ago
most cliche answer by far...but, love and romance. I feel really lonely without my girlfriend, like...just nothing else fills that gap.
kstenerud 5y ago
You connect best with people who are like you in some way. Sports fans like to hang around with sports fans. Outdoors folks like to hang around with outdoors folks. Avid readers find fulfillment in book clubs. There's no magic here, and "popularity" isn't going to do a thing against loneliness. This is nothing new. Great minds like Voltaire met regularly with like-minded people to discuss philosophy and science in excruciating detail as far as everyone else was concerned. One could consider them the "nerds" of their time, and yet they had social lives, just not so much outside of their circles (much like everyone else). Your connections come from activities where you share experiences with others doing things you all enjoy, so seek out those enjoyable activities and the connections will slowly build as you meet people in those circles. That's how I met my wife.
SamoyedFurFluff 5y ago
Firstly going to therapy and being direct with what you want. “I’m not as social as I’d like to be.” And then directly working on it witj as little self judgement as possible. In this way your therapist is your coach and your sport is socializing. Secondly is to practice. Nerds love nerd meetups- look at anime con, gencon, games done quick, etc. find a local group like this and integrate, which is a fancy word for showing up and participating.
a_brawling_boo 5y ago
For me it isn't so much being a 'nerd', which I am, as being very much an introvert as well. And most people don't know this, but introverts still want to be around people, just need alone time too, so I understand where you are coming from. If you find yourself not doing things or not experiencing things or not participating in conversations because they do not revolve around tech and science, and I know this sounds dumb, but force yourself to do it. I had a low point in my life and decided to force myself to say yes to things I really didn't want to do, and over the years I found out there is a reason people like sports, or concerts or whatever, and other things I tried once and knew it is not for me. And you don't have to change your interests or try to be popular or care about fashion like Graham talks about. I don't like sports in general, but I will always go to a college football game if invited, it is fun, even if you don't enjoy football, also there are other people at super bowl parties that don't watch football either; but I will never go to a nightclub again, once was enough to know. Your social circle expands and one day saying 'yes' to something will lead you to meet someone you will eventually start a family with and then your social circle will slowly shirk and that is okay.
bradleyjg 5y ago
Keep your identity small. What good does it do you to identify as a nerd?
hppb 5y ago
I joined a nerdy martial arts club (Historic European Martial Arts), to play with swords, get fit, and meet other people who are nerdy but not in tech. Made many new friends that way.
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da39a3ee 5y ago
Don't fuss about your "social life" directly. Find a romantic partner, probably using dating apps, and then build your social life on top of your shared life with your partner.
indymike 5y ago
> If so, which approaches or resources were helpful to you? For me the issue was one of being too selective and fearful. I would analyze people the way people analyze resumes, trying to read between the lines for facts that in reality are not in evidence. So, because I was afraid of rejection, this led to a bit of a spiral, where caution led to expecting the worst, and then noticing every fault. I had moved out on my own, and was really lonely, working as a lab device repair engineer (I had spend four years prior writing software for 80s era diagnostic devices) in a town where I knew no one. One day I decided to try something completely new: I'd just accept the people in my life as "my team", be nice to them and try to be helpful, and see what happened. So instead of worrying about if the person was good or bad, I started figuring out what the people that were around me liked and disliked so I could be nice. I also decided that my default answer for social interaction would always be yes. So where I'd find an excuse not to go to lunch with coworkers, I'd say yes. Little stuff like getting a coffee for a coworker when I went to get mine. Saying good morning, and asking "are you having a good day?" to the ever-changing lady at the front desk. It didn't matter what she said, I'd just listen and say something sympathetic. At the end of the day, I'd tell the people that sat near me in the office that I was leaving. It took all of three days for people that I only interacted professionally with to really warm up. People asked if I wanted to grab lunch. At the end of the day I got invited to grab a beer, go work out, or go to a sports event. I said yes every time - even if it was something I had zero personal interest in. I would go, and soak up the experience, listening to them talk about themselves, their problems, and when they asked me about me, I'd answer honestly. So in short, stop judging, accept the people already in your life, say yes, go to lunch with people, go to social events, be honest, and most importantly be a good listener.
sriram_malhar 5y ago
Cooking for others. Drop off a surprise bag of home-made bagels for a breakfast, make soup for a sick person, call someone and ask them to come over for coffee and cake. Or sump'n.
hypertele-Xii 5y ago
Drugs.
xeromal 5y ago
This isn't a solution to your problem, but I slowly fostered a relationship with my distant brother and father (who I had a right to not forgive) over several years. Loneliness is a strange thing to conquer and it's more of a state-of-mind than anything. I'm the "same" lonely as I was a few years ago. What I mean by that is that I still don't have friends in the city I live in, but mentally, I'm very satisfied because my brother or dad are a call away and that keeps me from falling into that sadness. I guess what I'm saying is, you stop feeling lonely when you're confident you have a few people to lean on. Pursuing meaningful relationships is very difficult and it's often easier to build on an existing foundation such as a blood relative or old friend. A lot of people will tell you to make new friends or go to a meetup, but it's really really hard to find people who will stick around and not turn into shallow acquaintances. Once you have one or two people you can cry to, the loneliness feeling evaporates. That's what happened to me, anyways.
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TooTiredToSleep 5y ago
I didn't. I'm close to my parents, and have a decent friendship group who I meet up with often, but the lack of a romantic partner means I am incredibly lonely. I've tried both dating sites and in person meet ups and nothing works for me. I've been in two long term (4y, 2y) romantic relationships, which both started the same way but that isn't available to me any more. I feel unwanted and I know why it is. I've felt loved and desired before, and not having that just burns me up by day day. I feel hollow and worthless. I see some comments saying they are alone, but not lonely. I'm the inverse, I'm not alone, but terribly lonely.
psyc 5y ago
Not exactly. It just went away on its own. I’m far more solitary now than at any other period of time. But whereas I used to feel loneliness quite painfully, I no longer feel it at all. I have no other explanation except the passage of time.
hiremaga 5y ago
I haven't overcome loneliness but I have come to better terms with this feeling than I had in the past. I now understand that it's a state that arises from time to time. And then passes. And arises again. It's also a feeling that can show up in solitude or a crowd. Many of the ideas suggested here have helped me but one more than the rest is the company of a person who listens sympathetically. This has helped me understand what loneliness, in its myriad flavors, might mean underneath. As an adult this person has been a trained therapist. As a child it was a loving grandparent. Some weeks it's also my meditation partner from a retreat a few years ago. I've come to appreciate that loneliness really is universal. We are far from alone in feeling alone. And this time of the year can be particularly hard on many of us; faced with unending pictures of seemingly perfect family unions. Reaching out to someone, just like you did today, is a great place to start. I hope you feel at least a little less alone now. And I'm confident there are many, including me, who've benefited from your choice to ask your question today. Thank you for connecting us in this way.
johnwheeler 5y ago
I don’t know how old you are, but once you get to around 25-30, it becomes infinitely harder to build close friendships. Around that age there are a few things working against you. 1. Families and priorities erode the time available to cultivate new friendships. 2. You lack history with people you meet and time is not on your side to effect that. Attempts to create history feel forced and unnatural. 3. You develop an intolerability to slights, real or perceived, because your understanding of human nature is more convincing to you than when you were an innocent child. I once read that the best way to make new friends is through spontaneous positive experiences over a long stretch of time. For example, my wife is 41, and she has a new friend she’s known for about 2 years now. They met while picking up our respective kids at school who used to play with each other (spontaneity). Over time, they found out they had a mutual friend and many things in common, same sense of humor, etc. it’s taken a long time, but I’ve seen their friendship grow into what I’d consider close.
stadium 5y ago
Volunteering to manage my kid's youth sports team has been good for me. The quality of the kids' experience depends on it which is a good forcing function to stay on top of things. Unexpectedly, it's also been a way to build community and get families connected with each other. As an introvert with social anxiety I didn't plan for that part of it. It feels nice to hear words of appreciation from other parents and know that I'm making a difference, even if small. Being forced outside of my social comfort zone has been good for my personal growth. Especially after dealing with COVID related isolation for so long.
runjake 5y ago
Join activity groups/clubs. Eg: running, hiking, cycling, sports, etc — something that takes the focus off of the need to start or keep up conversations. It’s also important to learn that everyone else has insecurities, self-doubts, has to poop and so on. From the coolest to the loneliest. It’s all about how you manage it. Never apologize for yourself unless you’ve actually done something wrong.
mhoad 5y ago
You might have undiagnosed social anxiety disorder or something like that which causes you to internalise a lot of unhelpful stuff. The good part of that however is that there are already some good clinical approaches to that which seem to have high success rates. If getting yourself a psychologist is an option to help you put together a plan I’d recommend it. Trying to figure all of this out on your own without a proper sounding board is almost certainly going to make it a much longer journey with a much lower chance of success.
cblconfederate 5y ago
I wonder if people realize that, to a large extent, cities are designed to exacerbate loneliness. Most people don't even form relationships unless forced to be in the same space and time by an external force, in school or work. As they get older, the emphasis on heavy parenting excludes other people from their lives. In the past, the church, the cafe, the market were meeting places, not anymore. As we are entering an era of remote-work we have to start building solutions to these problems. The industrial-era city-warehouse is not a good model for our times.
wdr1 5y ago
It was hard, but I got out of my own head. I took an interest in other people. What do they think? What's their story? Not to debate or argue, but just to try & understand them. When I was a lot younger my anxiety would sometimes result in my mind going blank at a social event. To combat that, I would draft a few questions or topics on an index card & stick it in my back pocket. When it would happen, I'd excuse myself to the restroom & read it. Once I got basic footholds on social interactions, I started to realized something: a lot of people felt the same anxiousness & stress that I did. That helped me a lot because my focus became how do I help them feel more comfortable, feel a sense of belonging. And again, by taking the focus off myself, the interactions became easier. Carnegie's "How to Win Friends & Influence People" is also great. Lastly, practice helps a lot. Accept you'll make mistakes, have awkward moments & everything else. So what? The worst thing it can do is keep you from trying again in the future. After a while (and I mean a long while), you learn to laugh those things off & it becomes easier. Just keep going.
xiphias2 5y ago
I went to the gym 5 days a week and got fit with a trainer (ate a lot of meat of course, even though I'm not a big meat eater). In just 3 months you will start getting compliments both online and offline. You can do it without a trainer as well, but at least get a few classes to make sure you're not destroying your joints.
- sydthrowaway 5y ago
  Just replace meat with protein shakes
renewiltord 5y ago
Intelligent people know how to behave socially. It’s just another system. However, most things are impossible to ones who believe they cannot do them. No human who believes they cannot open a jar has ever succeeded. I’m an engineer with degrees in Maths and CS. All the good engineers I know are also socially capable. At the worst, you have to be able to play well with other engineers.
bjacobt 5y ago
I'm US based and used to volunteer in the local food bank. You meet different groups of people there and it's a good way to start your day on the weekends by waking up early, appreciating what you have in life and knowing you did something good. Link to find foodbank https://www.feedingamerica.org/take-action/volunteer https://www.feedingamerica.org/take-action/volunteer SF food bank links I used 1. https://www.sfmfoodbank.org/volunteer/in-the-warehouse/ https://www.sfmfoodbank.org/volunteer/in-the-warehouse/ 2. https://www.sfmfoodbank.org/volunteer/ https://www.sfmfoodbank.org/volunteer/ Edit: added links
tomjuggler 5y ago
Like many others in the comments here I can only offer my own personal observation. I used to be super shy, now I'm not. I used to juggle alone, just preoccupied with the patterns for years - then a friend who made a living from performing told me I could do it too, and took me to busk with him. The first show I did, I was shaking with anxiety.. Nowadays there isn't a social situation I couldn't handle. Please don't tell yourself, "I'm a nerd, I can't socialise", the truth is, you just need to try. It's going to be awkward at first, yes. It sounds weird but try to work out things to try out, rehearse what to say, before you are in a social situation (like actually in front of the mirror). Pay attention to others and work out what approach works for you. Most of all, go for it and talk to someone. Then do it again. By the way, happy New Year!
brooksbp 5y ago
I feel compelled to offer some advice here. Please hear me out.. I'm pretty socially awkward. I don't have "friends". I don't go to movies. I don't plan lunch dates. I don't host parties. I rarely ask people to do things. I don't have a "social life". I've been lonely. I still get lonely sometimes. But.. I love it. I feel good. And I like the people that are in my life. > Has anyone here ever made good progress in connecting with other people? Yes. As a side effect of doing what I love to do. Focus on what you love to do. Dig into it. And you will find other people who love to do those things too. Acknowledge your loneliness. Embrace it. Stop worrying about it. It's not a "problem" that needs fixing. Avoid self-help resources, if you can. And do not pretend that someone else can "fix" this for you. You are the only one who can be you. Redirect your mindset. If you continually tell yourself that you're lonely, don't have friends, and have no connection, you will be miserable and stuck in a rut forever. If your actions are motivated by trying to "better your social life", you will feel empty inside. Stop that. Forget about all of that. Just do what you love to do, and cultivate that. It's much easier to connect with someone when you are working, building, or playing something. You will find people along the way. One or two might stick, and many won't. There are so many different people in this world! And that's OK. Honestly ask yourself what you love to do. If you were financially independent, what would you spend your time on? Who would you surround yourself with? What pursuit, mission, or deeper meaning would bring you together?
powersnail 5y ago
> it is hard for us tech oriented people to build a great social life. Because our minds constantly revolve around tech and science. I disagree. There are thousands of reasons for loneliness, and there are thousands of different types of nerds. Might nerds have a higher number of being lonely statistically speaking? Possible. But it's a gross overstatement that a mind revolving around tech and science necessarily causes loneliness. The correlation is not particularly strong, and the causation is certainly unproven. From I observe in myself and my colleagues, many "nerds" socialize just fine. They are nerds at some time, and social butterflies at others. If you feel lonely, you have to first identify "why". Is it something about yourself (reluctance to speak to people, reluctance to connect)? Is it something about the circumstance (moving to a different city, so losing old contacts)? Is it something about the current environment that is unfriendly to you? Are you in a place where nobody shares your hobby? I personally find my own loneliness more related to the fact that I'm in a different country. I was reading Orwell's essay on Henry Miller, and one sentence struck me very dearly: "Exile is probably more damaging to a novelist than to a painter or even a poet, because its effect is to take him out of contact with working life and narrow down his range to the street, the café, the church, the brothel and the studio." Although not a novelist (and not a patron of brothel), I do find myself limited to certain streets, houses, and supermarkets. I've visited more hotels than homes, more restaurants than kitchens, and I know very little about what American life entails apart from what I observe from a distance. No matter what I do, I can't seem to get into US culture. I combat this kind of loneliness by focusing on what I can get into: connect with people who share similar hobbies: violin playing, cooking, literature. It feels much more free to talk with people about what I fully understand, rather than small talks in which I can barely grasp the meaning of idioms. And the more I talk, the more I can start to connect with people on an emotional level, which feels very comforting.
satisfice 5y ago
My son met his now wife while gaming online. I can report that online gaming appears to be an excellent way to learn to work and live with other people.
rambojazz 5y ago
No progress yet.
pgcj_poster 5y ago
Paul Graham's essay indicates that (a) Paul Graham went to High School in a cartoon and (b) Nerds are unpopular because they care more about being smart than being tolerable to be around. I'm certain that this is true of Paul Graham, but I'm pretty sure a lot of people who are labelled as nerds are lonely for other reasons. People with social anxiety might naturally gravitate towards solitary activities, like reading or computing, which are considered "nerdy." If that's you, then you need to convince your brain that other people aren't scary. One strategy I've heard for this is running "experiments" where you write down what you're worried will happen before undergoing a social situation that provokes anxiety, then afterwards write what actually happened and compare them. Usually, things will go better than you worried, and calling attention to this each time can (hopefully) reduce your overall level of anxiety. Other people might begin with "nerdy" interests and develop social deficits because of media and people like Paul Graham who say that people interested in those things must be weird and unpopular. If that's you, then you should work to convince yourself that you're not a nerd, and in fact there's no such thing as a "nerd." You should probably do this anyway, because the idea that you have to be a "nerd" to be good at stuff like programming excludes people who don't fit the prototypical image of a "nerd," such as women. If, as Paul Graham says, you're lonely because you care too much about being/appearing intelligent, you should convince yourself that the most important thing is not to be smart, but to be kind.
- throwhn1 5y ago
  As a kid I discovered trash talking as a strategy and adapting my behaviour to be more like the others helped me. But growing older this is not such a great option anymore. Also in a competitive workplace only being kind doesn't get you far, at worst it leads to burnout. I think one needs to find a balance. Also in my school class the most nerdy kid just played air plane during class and recess and that is why he got bullied really badly. That kid also did some fun things sometimes but loudly playing his solitary games was just completely out of place. Thinking back it makes me wonder why teachers didn't mention that to him.
petarvasilev 5y ago
luhego 5y ago
Before the pandemic I used to go to meetups frequently. You will see and interact with same the people over and over again, so there a chance that you can get friends that way.
ThinkBeat 5y ago
This needs to be made into a plan. 1. Where to meet people. 2. How to approach people. 3. How to handle initial contact. 4. How to bond. 5. Graceful goodbye. 6. Further contact warranted? None of these are easy by themselves even. 1) The older you get the harder it is to meet people. First you are in school with a bunch of random people. Then you may have to detour into the military, utterly random people. University with a bunch of people a little less random. The farther you get from your educational stage the harder it is to meet people. People get older, they already have a circle of friends and family. You can: - Join a book club - Join a sportsteam - Find a place to volunteer. - Join a religion. Some will have rituals for including new members. - Join some political / ideological activism group - Join the Foreign Legion - Find somewhere public and hang out there all the time (pub, coffee shop, lingerie store, jail, ) - Take classes in something. 2) Not much help I can give here. It can be super hard. Esp if there is already a structure in place. So everyone is talking to people in small groups and there you are all by yourself. I suck hard at this I have attended a lot of tech related conferences like DefCon. I never managed to meet anyone there. Except when I was a speaker. 3) I suck hard at this 4) Yeah right. 5) The best if you can establish a timetable ahead of time in some subtle way, or you may be in a situation where there is a natural timetable. You need flexibility. You might never want to see this person again (ever). 6) Usually not. Most people suck. You suck too, but you are ok with it sort of. I have no interest and nothing to contribute on: sports, drinking, shagging, fishing, celebrities, fashion, exotic vacations, gambling, get rich quick schemes, tupperware, MLM Making beer, wine, compost, voodoo dolls, automobiles, Now here is where people say: "Well, there is your problem". I think not really: I like: modern art, photography, philosophy, politics, (in a respectful, restrained, and eager to learn kind way) religion, literature, eclectic music, programming, hacking, There is a subsection of all people who enjoy one or more of those, that subsection is vastly smaller than: sports, drinking, celebrities, tavel.
sydthrowaway 5y ago
Harsh truth: its time to settle.
a-saleh 5y ago
Well, while I did meeting a lot of tech people that had small social circles/seemed lonely, most of the people I know have small group of friends and are very happy with it, and I know even of some genuinly happy social butterflies that have large group around them. Personally, it is hard. I.e. I met one of my closest friends when we started internship together, but it took us month before we went out together beyond work-lunch/coffee-break. And even after few years it felt kinda awkward when I talked to him about my marital problems, and he was the one that called me on it. And I was glad he did, because I didn't really have people to talk about that ...
openssl 5y ago
MaurizioPz 5y ago
I'm hopeful about a course I'm taking (starting next week) that could help me addressing this. Practical Social Networking - https://guildoftherose.org/courses https://guildoftherose.org/courses (it is a "guild" born from the rationality movement and currently in beta, we have just finished today the 3rd course of the beta and I'm quite happy with how they are handling it)
knbknb 5y ago
Overcoming loneliness is hard for everyone, not just for nerds. It is difficult to overcome loneliness because the entire society is affected by several megatrends which enhance loneliness, perhaps even leading to positive feedback. In no particular order: On economical level, neoliberalism and privatization encourages loneliness. On community (City) level, urban planning is designed to make inner cities more inhabitable, at least the common spaces (again by privatization, surveillance, optimizng cities for traffic flows, the need to have a car, increasingly long commutes requiring people to spend more time alone). Urban Living spaces are unaffordable requiring people to work more. Rural areas are also affected. This has lots of consequences for loneliness. On workplace level, remote work, outsourcing; more and more jobs hat require constant screen-staring; modern management methods and the digital whip, union busting and many other innovations increase loneliness. On individual level, stress, e.g. from constant pressure at work, and too high performance levels expected, increase sickness and then loneliness. Aging societies and decades of accumulations of unhealthy lifestyles do their part. Long-Covid is a mass-disabling event leading to more loneliness. You get the idea. I could go on. And I don't have a recipe to "overcome loneliness". It's like overcoming wetness. It is impossible - when everyone is swimming in a sea of loneliness.
yesenadam 5y ago
I used to be lonely sometimes, or didn't have quite as many friends as I'd wish. Then I joined a free friendship/dating site about 15 years ago, and made friends in a lot of countries. I had to learn spanish because I started making friends with latinas, and really loved that, and most don't speak any english. So, that added a lot of countries to the potential-friends pool. (I'd love to get good at French and Portuguese, to add Brazil and French-speaking Africa.) Ever since, I've had a load of great friends all over the world. It's been amazing! Right now my dearest friends are in Bulgaria, Ghana, India, Philippines, Peru, Colombia, etc. The main surprise has been, how little cultural gap/barrier there is - none really, except language, if you don't speak it. Now my main problem is - how on earth am I ever gonna be able to visit them all! Also, during the years I joined 2 free language learning sites, the ones where you meet someone and teach each other. I was only on them for a week or two before meeting 'teachers' who quickly became dear friends, one in Nicaragua, the second in Spain. That's also a great way to meet people. And a great way to learn a language. (I studied grammar a lot in the early days too, of course.)
guilhas 5y ago
I got a girlfriend from work We are not similar. She likes her gym, and coffee with friends, traveling; I like my linux, and programming debugging, politics... We more or less understand each other I am very bad socially, so my social life is mostly her social life Anything else I also go to Meetup.com

go_elmo 5y ago

I am asking myself sometimes to what extend CS-based work increases autism-typical behaviour, simply by enforcing similar thinking patterns (maybe). I kind of get into a "tunnel" when having a well focused day of code and feel like Im on the spectrum afterwards. Maybe this enforces this stereotype even if there is no correlation..?

jfengel 5y ago
It's called "flow". Most people do it. It's how artists work and rock climbers climb and everyone else who gets focused on a moderately complex task. Programming is a great form of art, one that is more lucrative than other art forms, but it's not different from other human experience.
pizza234 5y ago
I confirm (for my own case) this phenomenon - the circularity of the behavior. The more I think in a structured way at work, the more I do it outside, the more I do it at work, and so on. I'd say that there is simply a tendency to do that, that gets reinforced by the (work) conditions. In my opinion, it's crucial, in these conditions, to be self-aware and get a certain degree of control, as one can easily slide into, let's say, some negative patterns of the behavior in the spectrum.
Grustaf 5y ago
I think it's 90% the other way around. Clearly people that are slightly (or very) autistic will gravitate towards computer work, since computers are like a wet dream for autistics.
throwhn1 5y ago
I have a similar observation. My motivation to start programming as a kid was to build cool stuff but it turned out that just learning to code was so crazy difficult and such a big effort. Eventually I became good at it but I feel like it took a toll from my creativity. Similar with studying, I studied Physics. This was a pragmatic choice since I was naturally good at math, curious about philosophical consequences and job perspectives were supposed to be solid. But the studies were really hard and eventually I started to not care about any philosophical aspect, just accepting everything is state of the (pragmatic) art. Not to mention how often I had to tell people I have to leave early because of studies. Also later on especially in some startups pressure can be insane, one boss once suggested I could work in nowhere land for some months to focus better. (Luckily I didn't do that) But yeah, this certainly does something to you I think. Good to not forget there's also this other life. (I think that's also the point in the pg article) Also I must say social life really became much more difficult over time. When I was younger not meeting anyone in a week felt strange, now I'm happy when I can socialize once a month.

jfengel 5y ago

Nerd culture idolizes the hyper focused and dedicated social maladept. That predates the common recognition of autism as a spectrum, but it fit into the stereotype. That hero worship tells people that they're better programmers if they reject everything else. Not only is it not true, it's counterproductive. Autism may be overrepresented among computer people but it's still rare. What's more common, I think, is neurotypical people trying to act autistic and failing. Autistics do indeed need a different approach to a lot of things, but what most nerds need is to think of themselves as people who are fortunate to have a skill set that is well compensated even without being the 100x programmer who sleeps under his desk and eats only Soylent. That gives us the freedom to be interested in life outside of computers and jobs. That's not easy when you have to see outside a culture that emulates a few highly successful individuals. Or worse, emulate the myth of their public persona without actually knowing their real lives. The trick, I would say, is to stop telling each other that we're so different from other people, and that this is necessary to be good at our jobs.

connectsnk 5y ago
This comment should be stickied on hacker news front page so that everyone has a chance to read it.
Grustaf 5y ago
If autism is a spectrum, I would say that at least 80% of the programmers I've come in contact with are noticeably further along it than average. Over 60% would be described as awkward. This is in Scandinavia where people generally just work in a field they enjoy, nobody works in IT for the money, so it is probably different in a place like India or even the US.
- Nbox9 5y ago
  I’m the US. Your comment seems to imply that non-asd folks entering tech are just in it for the money. Between the general popularity with Video Games, the changing Hollywood image of hackers (Neo, FSociety, Pied Pipper), the hero worship of Steve Jobs/Elon Musk, and the general societal acceptance of all things STEM we have a lot of people, especially young men, entering computer programming out of genuine interest. Determining private medical data or motivations for a population is hard to do in any ethical empirical way.
  - Grustaf 5y ago
    I don't know what Neo or FSociety are, but almost all the programmer protagonists of Silicon Valley were more or less awkward. Young Steve Jobs was pretty awkward too, and Elon Musk is positively painful to watch. So I'm not sure these shows and people attract the average person. I do think most people enter programming because of a genuine interest, hence the abundance of awkward introverts in the business. My point was just that in places like the US were there is such a strong focus on making money, there are probably more people getting in to IT for money, and hence more non-awkward people.
    - randomhodler84 5y ago
      Matrix the movie (first one, the good one) and Mr Robot the TV show! If you are not familiar with either, they are strongly recommended!
      - Grustaf 5y ago
        Ah, well i enjoyed Matrix back in the day but there’s little connection with programming isn’t there? Mr Robot was fun too until it became too much of a Fight Club rip off, but I remember the protagonist as extremely awkward and weird, not someone that a mainstream person would aspire to be like.
    - Nbox9 5y ago
      I do not feel convinced that there is a strong relationship between people’s interests and their level of social awkwardness or their position on the ASD. I understand that your attitude is that people interested in computers are more likely to be socially awkward. I wanted to challenge that position, and bring my own antidotal point of view into the discussion. The protagonists of Silicon Valley were displayed in incredibly high positive light. They received fame, fortune, drugs and sex. They were portrayed as a modern personification of American Independence, living life on their own terms and bashing heads against authority. They showed very strong social connections. Even scenes where Richard experiences social anxiety are shown in a highly relatable way.
- smnrchrds 5y ago
  I think you missed this excellent article that was posted to HN a few days ago. You are describing a gradient, not a spectrum. Autism spectrum means something different. https://neuroclastic.com/its-a-spectrum-doesnt-mean-what-you-think/ https://neuroclastic.com/its-a-spectrum-doesnt-mean-what-you... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29682917 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29682917
  - Grustaf 5y ago
    Thanks for the links, yes I did think that "spectrum" referred to a scale. And I don't know much about autism in general, but it should be pretty uncontroversial to say that programmers and computer nerds are much more socially awkward than average.

ascar 5y ago

I guess we have to differentiate between people working in tech and the actual nerds. As tech pays well we get more and more people working here for the money and not out of passion. I would say the ones that go hiking, mountain biking or climbing after hours and tend not to touch a computer much outside of work are not the stereotype that is addressed here. They are "normal" (although I don't like that definition of normal) people working in tech. Then there is the stereotype that spent most of their free time on their computers out of passion and that's what made them end up in tech. That's the same stereotype that has a harder time forming social bonds for the simple reason that they tend to stay home to follow their passion rather than engage in social activities.

cassianoleal 5y ago
I got my first computer at the age of 4. I learned to program BASIC on it when I was 6. At 12 I was building computers, fixing other people's machines, even phone lines. I'm now a platform engineer, working with cloud computing, kubernetes, serverless, the works. I run a small home lab with a few self-hosted services. My home network comprises of many VLANs for different purposes, my router runs OpenWRT which I tinker with a lot. I own 2 3D printers, one of which solely so I can tinker with it, both at the hardware and the software levels. I spend a lot of time reading and learning about new tech, networking, computers in general. I'm also a rock climber. Last year I hiked up Mount Snowdon in Wales. I have done the Inca Trail in Peru to Machu Picchu. I have climbed in Brazil, England, Wales, Greece, France. I'm also a cyclist. I love playing football and basketball (despite being fairly short at 1m65cm). I have been trying to get into running lately, mostly because it's very easy and quick to get some exercise in, since I don't particularly like it. I have gone camping for weeks so I could climb in remote places and/or on the cheap, but also for the sheer enjoyment of it. I have met friends on both camps, and I'm still quite socially awkward and relatively anxious. I still find it hard to relate closely to many people. That doesn't stop me from trying - and failing a lot. The idea that those worlds are at odds on a fundamental level absolutely needs to die. It's not good for us nerds, it's not good for us athletes/workout enthusiasts, it's not good for us nature people.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]

waterhouse 5y ago

Normal people? So, if someone found 100 software engineers and got their IQs, do you expect they would form an approximately normal distribution, with a mean of 100 and roughly sixteen of them below 85? Or that, for tests that attempt to measure autism such as [0], they would get average scores? [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autism-spectrum_quotient https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autism-spectrum_quotient

leros 5y ago
Being intellectually intelligent doesn't make you much different from the average person.
giraffe_lady 5y ago
The person you're responding to said "normal people" not "exactly average on any specific metric an HN commenter can choose" so I don't really find this persuasive. "Normal people" is a lot harder to define and quantify than IQ or whatever that other one is and that might be uncomfortable. Nonetheless it is a more useful description for this purpose.
- waterhouse 5y ago
  The preceding sentence said "tech people have a superiority complex about their intelligence and inferiority complex about their social intelligence (neither of which is true from what I have observed)", so I took "Tech people are normal people" to mean "Tech people have average intelligence and social intelligence"; which I consider extremely unlikely, and therefore proposed some operationalizations of it that could be checked empirically.
  - giraffe_lady 5y ago
    Yes I understood your reasoning. I was pointing out why I didn't find it persuasive.
    - waterhouse 5y ago
      Ok, which of the following is closest to your beliefs? 1. Tech people are of approximately average intelligence, and we should be able to see this in IQ or other tests. 2. Tech people are of approximately average intelligence, although IQ and other tests may say otherwise; those tests are all bad. 3. Tech people are of substantially above average intelligence. I would suggest SAT/ACT scores as the most obvious and least-confounded alternative to IQ tests. More-confounded alternatives would include grades, rate of having a college degree, rate of attending an elite college, rate of having advanced degrees, size of vocabulary... As for social awkwardness, I think that is less well-studied than intelligence, but you could imagine constructing a survey with questions that attempted to measure what you cared about. For example: "How many friends do you have?" "Were you bullied in school?" "Would you feel excited or apprehensive about attending a party where you didn't know anyone else?" "Do you find it easy to make new friends?" "Do you think others enjoy your presence at parties?" (Some questions like these have in fact been used to estimate "extroversion".) And I would ask a similar question here: do you really think tech people are average, and, if so, do you think this would likely be seen in the results of simple questionnaires?
      - giraffe_lady 5y ago
        I don't have an opinion about the average intelligence of software developers and you've clearly thought a lot more about this than I care to. But the person made a pretty straightforward assertion about us being, in aggregate, normal. And you pretty much went straight for the calipers, which I just don't think was helpful or necessary. That's all that's happening here, I'm not trying to formally debate you about the truth of these different statements. Just pointing out that software devs are overall a pretty normal group of people.
        deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
        Jensson 5y ago
        > I don't have an opinion about the average intelligence You probably missed that this sub thread just concerns the intelligence part of the top post. It said that software engineers are neither superior with respect to intelligence nor are inferior with respect to social skills. The poster you argue with choose to argue against the first point, you try to say that he is wrong since the first point is valid. The points aren't really connected, so even if the second point is valid the first point might still be wrong. On HN threads going off-topic is normal and should be expected. So just because the outer discussion only concerns social part it is still fine to poke hole in parts of people comments like this. The first person to bring up intelligence was the top post anyway, there was no reason to do so, but now they did so we have this subthread.
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prirun 5y ago

> The main thing is I only get energy from talking to interesting people about interesting things I can relate to this, but to me it's different than true extroversion. My mom was an extrovert. I took her to the grocery store once, waited for her at the front while she tooled around in a cart (she was elderly but wanted to shop by herself). She had to pick up maybe 5 things. After about 20 minutes, I called her and she didn't answer. After 10 more minutes I called, she answered, and said she was talking to a "friend" about her husband who had recently died. I said, "Who is this?", and she said "You don't know her, we just met." I actually got kinda mad that I had been waiting all this time, she hadn't finished her shopping, and had been (and still was!) talking to some stranger so long. Once we were in standing in line at the checkout, again at the grocery but when she was younger and getting around okay, and people would just start spontaneously talking to her, or she to them. Next thing you know they'd be telling her about their husband that cheated on them, they didn't get along with their kids, or who knows what! In the grocery store, no one talks to me - ever. I don't care, but it just doesn't happen. My mom told me once it's because I don't look at people. My sister asked why everyone talked to Mom and my mom said, "the secret is, don't ever talk about yourself. If someone tells you something, just act interested, say 'Really?', or ask them a question, but then wait for them to start talking again." My sister has tried it and said it's amazing how well it works. A big difference between me and my mom is that she was actually interested in the lives of complete strangers. She liked people on a level way above me. And not just for small talk: she talked with them about their lives, their problems, their goals, their careers - you name it. She was energized by talking to all kinds of people. To her, all people were interesting and energized her. A true extrovert.