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Women force change at Indian iPhone plant
- newswasboring 5y agoI wonder how much it costs to improve the working conditions to basic hygiene? Anyone has any idea? I want to compare it to the top executive salary and see how much of a pay cut they will have to take
- merpnderp 5y agoLooks like Tim Cook makes about $15 million a year, which seems really low for the value he brings. This is likely more a question of Apple not requiring its contractors to bid in wormless food for their employees, when they bid a contract. Seems like Apple could just say on their contract deals "If you offer onsite dorms and food for your employees, it must not contain worms, feces, poison, or Brussel sprouts. Also you can't use slaves or children. Bid accordingly."
- blacksmith_tb 5y agoThat would be true if we only looked at his salary, but it appears he makes an order of magnitude more[1]. 1: https://www.bbc.com/news/business-58352098 https://www.bbc.com/news/business-58352098 (edited for a more reputable source)
- kube-system 5y agoI've always thought that it was dishonest to include non-monetary compensation in statements like "they make [x] amount of dollars, they can afford to [y]". Usually, to buy [y], you need cash.
- lern_too_spel 5y agoCash is easy to get by borrowing against assets.
- kube-system 5y agoThis is true for some people, some assets, and some amounts of money. Regardless, for the super-rich, they have enough cash that people can make more honest apples-to-apples comparisons with the same effect.
- lern_too_spel 5y agoParticularly for stock assets, where margin interest is less than 1% for large accounts.
- JaimeThompson 5y agoApple spends billions on stock buy backs per year they can redirect a bit of that so those who make their products for them don't have to be treated worse than animals.
- jjulius 5y agoYou could also compare it to the ~$200 billion[1] in cash they have on hand. [1]https://finance.yahoo.com/news/15-companies-most-cash-reserves-182708211.html https://finance.yahoo.com/news/15-companies-most-cash-reserv...
- shmde 5y agoAnother article from front page. Crowded dorms,no flush toilets and food crawling with worms at iPhone plant in India. [https://www.independent.ie/world-news/asia-pacific/crowded-dorms-no-flush-toilets-and-worms-in-food-how-protest-forced-change-for-women-at-indian-iphone-plant-41194516.html https://www.independent.ie/world-news/asia-pacific/crowded-d...]
- humaniania 5y agoReuters is a much better source of information. Look up the ownership of The Independent.
- nmridul 5y agoThe women would have continued suffering the condition (and apple continue to make profit) if the food poisoning did not happen. This title is trying to play down the condition of the dorms where the iPhone labourers were forced to stay. The apt title should be as per this thread - "Crowded dorms, no flush toilets and worms in food: How protest forced change for women at Indian iPhone plant". https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29737698 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29737698
- melling 5y agoDid FoxConn expand into India because India now requires the phones to be made there? There were no manufacturing companies in India?
- seanmcdirmid 5y agoIndia has huge tariffs for officially imported iPhones (to the point that most iPhones were being bought abroad or via the black market), so doing final assembly in India is the main way to avoid those tariffs and sell iPhones directly in India.
- dghughes 5y agoI'm pretty sure India and China are not on speaking terms.
- vanusa 5y agoPer the article: The factory is central to Apple's efforts to shift its slave plantations away from China due to tensions between Beijing and Washington. Reuters reported last year that Foxconn planned to invest up to $1 billion in the plant over three years I'm paraphrasing a bit, but only slightly.
- Jcowell 5y agoThis is weird to me. The initial line says per the article with the following block of text seemingly looking like from the article and then the last sentence says it’s paraphrased. Why not just quote the article and add brackets to any words you decide to add? It’s borderline misleading.
- vanusa 5y agoBecause it's time to start calling these plants that Apple runs what they are. As the hint at the bottom indicated -- the substitution was obvious (assuming one read the actual article). And in that sense, not "really" misleading. Call it dramatic license, if you will.
- dvt 5y agoThis is absolutely criminal and we should be a lot more cognizant of where our phones, laptops, and other gadgets come from. For a company like Apple (with the biggest private corporation war chest arguably in history) to tolerate these kinds of conditions is shameful. I'm sick and tired of Twitter slacktivism that does not fix these issues, and the real sad part is that there's real suffering that ought to be fixed. I read a book this year that I would recommend[1]. It's about organ trafficking in underdeveloped nations, but it's really opened my eyes to how much human suffering and injustice we tolerate as Western consumers. Of course, being an Eastern European immigrant, it really touched a nerve, but I think everyone should read it. [1] https://www.scottcarney.com/the-red-market https://www.scottcarney.com/the-red-market
- alisonkisk 5y ago
- EarlKing 5y agoStop buying all things Apple. That literally is the solution. Stop buying from them because their walled garden is an illusion as they do literally nothing to curate their app store. Stop buying from them because they're clearly OK with using sweatshop labor. Stop buying from them because they view their products as crudely made fashion accessories they can sell for a substantial markup no matter how awful they are. Just. Stop. Buying. Apple. Go buy a Pine Phone instead.
- literallyaduck 5y agoAnyone have information about the manufacturer process for Pine Phones?
- estaseuropano 5y agoI would suggest Fairphone, which actually tries to address these issues.
- xwolfi 5y ago
- forinti 5y agoIf not for basic human decency, then at least in the name of productivity these issues should have been solved. It just seems stupid to not offer a sane working environment.
- vanusa 5y agoIt just seems stupid to not offer a sane working environment. No -- Apple management sees this as a smart move, actually. Allowing these little flare-ups to happen now and then allows senior management to broadcast to the world just how cold-blooded they really are. Which helps keep the staff at home in line.
- zepto 5y agoElsewhere you claimed not to hate Apple.
- dvt 5y ago> It just seems stupid to not offer a sane working environment. You need to read about the history of corporatism from the mid 19th to the early 20th century. It's absolutely not stupid: it's optimal. The problem is that these two goals (optimal productivity and human rights) will conflict. There's absolutely an economic case to be made for working someone to the bone (and 16-hour workdays and beatings used to be the norm); it is, however, also unethical and morally wrong.
- kempbellt 5y ago> It's absolutely not stupid: it's optimal. It's absolutely not optimal, it's inefficient. Many companies have learned this, which is why you see things like "Unlimited Vacations! Free snacks! Company provided lunches!" etc, offered as perks. For low-skill labor, there isn't much benefit in making employees lives overly comfortable, but it is worth it to invest in some basic amenities - easy access to clean restrooms, regular breaks, clean air, clean water, warmth. These are the basics. In the case of these workers: - Better dorms = good sleep/less sickness - Decent food (without worms...) = less sickness/healthier employees - Decent toilets = less sickness/reduced stress All of these => happier, more energetic, and less distracted employees => more efficient work => more work gets done. With the benefit of making your company look like a good place to work.
- blhack 5y agoHow much more would it cost to manufacture iPhones in the US?
- martin8412 5y agoDepends on what you mean by manufacture. Print the PCB and assemble it? Probably not that much more given the scale of operations. Assembling it in the US is however a security risk for anyone not aligned with global US interests.
- pseudalopex 5y agoIsn't the software a security risk for anyone not aligned with global US interests? Isn't manufacturing in China a security risk for anyone not aligned with global PRC interests?
- scintill76 5y agoThe keys that sign the software are probably located in the US, or are otherwise within reach of US jurisdiction. That’s as much a risk as assembling hardware in the US would be.
- systemvoltage 5y agoInitially a lot since the entire supply chain is in China/Taiwan/Korea/Japan. Those glue stickies that hold the batteries? Nitto Japan makes them. Lots of small things like that also needs to be brought on shore. Overtime, it can get to a point where it would be maybe 30% more expensive. That number doesn’t ring well with investors. Only government action (which are puppetted by Apple lobbyists) can solve this problem.
- wonnage 5y agoIt’s weird that with interest rates at all time lows and huge amounts of money sloshing around looking for something to invest in, it’s all ended up in overpriced houses and NFTs rather than attempting to compete with these overseas manufacturers. Like surely Nitto doesn’t have some indefensible moat around making battery glue? Also while Congress is up in arms over tech monopolies… why isn’t anyone going after ASML? This is a literal monopoly that’s choking the entire world’s supply of semiconductors. Their patents prevent any competition. The US isn’t shy about taking unilateral action and fucking over entire countries when strategic interests are at hand, why not pull the trigger on a little-known Dutch company that the public doesn’t care about?
- keewee7 5y agoGood that they forced change but this is why India will never become industrialized. Apple will just move manufacturing back to China if more negative news makes it out of India.
- whatshisface 5y agoYou may be surprised to hear that India is already industrialized... and has been for decades.
- keewee7 5y agoHalf of India's population are still working in the agriculture sector. That is not normal in 2021 not even for developing countries. >Agriculture is the primary source of livelihood for about 58% of India’s population https://www.ibef.org/industry/agriculture-india.aspx https://www.ibef.org/industry/agriculture-india.aspx India needs a bigger manufacturing sector.
- whatshisface 5y agoIndia's manufacturing sector is about 13% of GDP and the US's manufacturing sector is about 11%. There are a lot of people living in rural India but they don't interfere with or detract from the Indians living in urban India. https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NV.IND.MANF.ZS?locations=IN-US https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NV.IND.MANF.ZS?location...
- Jensson 5y agoUS's manufacturing sector was 28% 1955, it went down post industrialization.
- incompleteCode 5y agoWhat makes you think India is _not_ industrialized?
- 5y ago
- Arete314159 5y agoWhat can we as consumers do to pressure Apple to have better working conditions?
- me_me_mu_mu 5y agoYou could vote with your wallet it’s literally all you have to do lol.
- petermcneeley 5y agoI dont think voting with your wallet was how any of the labour issues of the 20th century were solved.
- me_me_mu_mu 5y agoWell sure, then, just keep feeding the beast. Good luck.
- Den-vr 5y agoI'd suggest that the best thing we as consumers could do is speak to our state legislators about creating requirements for cellular devices to be sold in the state. Apple could do better, or they might just try to counter the legislative effort. Either way costs are imposed on Apple for evil. When it's less expensive to do better than it is to be evil, consumers will see change. Just look at what California legislators have been able to do to vehicles.
- Arete314159 5y agoI love this idea for blue states. For red states, it would be DOA.
- Den-vr 5y agoYou might be surprised at the amount of bipartisan support you would find for legislation that favors American manufacturing and morality. The opposition in red states would be from an enlightened industrialist's view that even these terrible jobs are still jobs that lift Indian families out of poverty and that this is part of the hard road to the middle class. Furthermore, this proposed legislation might harm constituents by increasing the prices they pay for phones. That said, you really only need one state in the entire country. With one state the options available to Apple become: eat the fines, change, refuse to sell in that state, or create an entirely new SKU for compliant devices.
- NaturalPhallacy 5y agoHeadline: >At an Indian iPhone Plant (implying it's an Apple plant) Article: >a Foxconn plant in southern India >Venpa Staffing Services, a Foxconn contractor that runs the dorm where workers were sickened by food poisoning, declined to comment. So it's Venpa Staffing who's responsible, but the headline implies Apple. I'm all for holding people accountable, but this is irritatingly deceptive journalism.
- Strilanc 5y agoApple is paying them money to make iPhones (according to the article). Apple is surely aware of this sort of behavior; maybe not the specific instance but the general fact. This makes Apple complicit. Similar to how buying factory farmed meat makes one complicit in factory farming.
- vanusa 5y agoExactly - "follow the money". It's very clear where the responsibility lies.
- NaturalPhallacy 5y agoWith the people who purchase iPhones? That's where Apple's money comes from.
- vanusa 5y agoBoth the consumer and the manufacturer are responsible -- on an abstract, ethical level. But in practical terms the manufacturer has infinitely more leverage over the situation.
- vanusa 5y agoFor women who assembled iPhones at a Foxconn plant in southern India, crowded dorms without flush toilets and food sometimes crawling with worms were problems to be endured for the paycheck. And: The unrest at Foxconn was the second involving an Apple supplier in India in a year. In December 2020, thousands of contract workers at a factory owned by Wistron Corp destroyed equipment and vehicles over the alleged non-payment of wages, causing estimated damage of $60 million. Which will just keep going on and on and on, of course. Until we stop buying their shiny products any more than strictly necessary. And those making ICT4 and higher at Apple -- especially those working at HQ in any capacity -- get together and tell their bosses they simply will not allow this shameful dereliction of duty on their part to continue. And will absolutely resign if there are any further occurrences of it.
- askonomm 5y agoYou mean Foxconn, right? As per my understanding this is not Apple's factory, simply just a factory that makes Apple products.
- vanusa 5y agoIt is 100 percent Apple's responsibility to guarantee safe and humane working conditions for all workers at every level in its supply chain. The idea that this is Foxconn's responsibility, or that Apple is "unable" to proactively monitor what happens at these plants is just BS.
- askonomm 5y agoI don't think that's how the world works. Just because you hate Apple, doesn't make it any different. I have a friend who runs a B2B sales company, by selling things like pencils and cups with logos on them, and he frequently communicates with a wide variety of factories who make those things, and in none of the factories does he have any control over how they do work, or what process they follow. But according to your logic, he should? And not only _should_, but it's his *responsibility*? Or do you just make this argument selectively based on how much money the company has who hires a factory? Because then again, you just hate Apple.
- bell-cot 5y agoNote that this wretched situation is at the very top of Apple's supply / manufacturing chain. (Maximum visibility, maximum risk of bad P.R.) Think about how workers further down - say, making small electrical connectors - are probably treated. Then consider that Apple's supply chain is probably held to considerably higher standards than those of the great majority of consumer product companies. :(
- estaseuropano 5y agoNeed more initiatives for approaches like fairphone.com, which offer a solution at least for conscious consumers.
- dirtyid 5y agoFrom memory Foxconn India assembly is done by all (predominantly?) women work force because they're easier to hire since most Indian manufacturers prefer men. I'm pretty sure I read this was a feminist move inspired by head operations mother or whatever feel good PR soundbite. Cynic in me now thinks maybe Foxconn feels it's easier to abuse rural Indian women after Winstron iphone riot that escalated to breaking shit last year.
- naruvimama 5y agoFor women with relatively little education or skills, a job in an apple assembly plant is a god send. The alternatives are manual labour in the farm or construction, as maids or in textile factories where the pay as well as work conditions are worse. I have personally visited factories in India which are neat and clean, and better than many college campuses.
- frontman1988 5y agoThe baseline hygiene in India isn't much higher than what was found. Apart from the worms everything is kinda routine. Flushless toilets are common everywhere. Crowded doms is also the norm for people living in chawls and slums in urban India. Handwashing using soap itself is practised by only 2/3rd of the population (and this is when majority don't use tissue paper/bidet). Similarly deodrant is unheard of. Open defecation is still practised in villages. Sadly I could go on and on
- naruvimama 5y agoFlush toilets use a lot of water, even wealthy people use buckets. Moreover squat toilets, which is how the human anatomy has evolved generally require the use of mugs and buckets, is the preferred and often cleaner method. Soap usage is quite common these days except perhaps in the remotest and the poorest regions. There is an obsession with western comodes and toilet paper, if you read up on their relatively recent history and a solution looking for a problem you would realise they they aren't great ideas. This is especially considering a warm country like India, where washing one's self with water and soap is the safest option. There is in general a problem with most countries especially developing ones, where the ones using the facilities are far removed from the ones providing it. Often the builders/contractors provide substandard facilities, this includes public facilities like busses. The food poisoning incident has brought out the other complains about other the facilities which has always existed.
- known 5y ago
- spzb 5y agoThis article is about Apple and a lot of commenters seem to be quite hung up on that fact but, let's be honest, pretty much every consumer device we buy will have had some or all of its components manufactured in a facility like this.
- vanusa 5y agoIf that were true then reports of this sort would be much more common.
- spzb 5y agoThat seems naive. The more common something is, the less newsworthy it is
- vanusa 5y agoAnyone who expresses an ounce of concern about where all of these products are made is 'hung up' and 'naive', would seem to be your main point here.
- spzb 5y agoWow. Interesting way to completely miss the point.
- vanusa 5y ago"All the other manufacturers are doing it so there's no need to get hung up about it, and aren't I more chill that everyone else here" does seem to be a fair reading of your original post on this topic.
- spzb 5y agoLike I said, missing the point. What I said was that everyone seems to be getting hung on it being Apple when actually it happens everywhere and that is the problem we should be hung up on.
- naruvimama 5y agoAs an Indian I can assure you that there are only a handful of bus stop in any major city which have the bus number written on them. There is a general apathy of service providers to the users. Dormitories for workers is a relatively new concept and not very common, it is quite possible that it was quickly built, was a penny pinching contractor or an all in all general apathy which is not that very uncommon. Also to note that these are remote dormitories managed by subcontractors, this abuse is very common (even reminds me of a case of foreign berry pickers in Sweden). There is probably no evil hand except these did not not figure highly on their priority list.
- solarmist 5y ago> There is a general apathy of service providers to the users. >There is probably no evil hand except these did not not figure highly on their priority list. Sorry, but how is this NOT evil? "[G]eneral apathy of [someone] to [others]" IS my definition of evil. To me, evil is carrying out your will without (or against) the will of others regardless of the consequences. The only missing piece is that the level where society places that deed in the morality spectrum. Lawful evil is still evil.
- naruvimama 5y agoThere is some relativity involved, as a child growing up in the 90s even for someone from a comfortably middle class family the safety standards were very poor. Students on cycle sharing roads with industrial trailers, leaky electric poles, light poles, I have had several near death incidents including falling off of a crowded bus. The standards have certainly improved quite drastically, busses with doors that close is a big improvement indeed. Some of this lack of empathy is global especially if it is not your problem, there is nothing evil but few greedy people who thought they could get away with cutting corners but got caught with their pants down. It is good, hopefully something good will come out of it. I am sure the conditions will improve once it is brought to light. I was also trying to make the point that we get much worse services from the government and we have no way to provide feedback, especially if it is the fault of bureaucrats (safe permanent job with a fat pension) and we do not vote for bureaucrats.
- thunkshift1 5y agoReminds of this clip from silicon valley- (upto 1:36) https://youtu.be/EyyIrpf68SM https://youtu.be/EyyIrpf68SM Absolute gold!