4 ms·

How about we stop presuming things and do some actual science. This is supposedly one of the most prestigious universities in the world throwing out the foundat

How about we stop presuming things and do some actual science. This is supposedly one of the most prestigious universities in the world throwing out the foundations for modern thought in the name of fear and profits for the greediest companies in the entire world. Their slogan is literally "the wind of freedom blows". Has the wind stopped blowing?

falcolas 5y ago
How do you accumulate 3 years of data on a vaccine about a year old? Presuming and modeling is what we can do.
- kyruzic 5y ago
  This is exactly the problem. You have simply decided science isn't needed because "we don't have time". Covid is not nearly as risky as the government and media has tried to convince everyone it is. The vast vast vast majority of people are at essentially 0 risk to covid. Eroding the foundations of democracy and modern thought in the repeated failed attempts to prevent the spread of covid is extremely stupid. I really wonder if people like you are even aware of how miserably every single policy aimed at slowing the spread of covid has failed. 1) lockdown to prevent the spread - did nothing, covid spread rapidly the moment the lockdowns ended, and we did nothing to prepare for it during the time of the lockdowns. We didn't build hospitals, we didn't train nurses, we simply wasted money. 2) Masks Mandates - A minor slow of the spread at the cost of erosion of freedoms, you don't have to be an anti masker to realize this, and the production of huge amounts of waste. 3) More Lockdowns - Same thing as first time. 4) Vaccines - We were promised this was the end, but thanks to people who think like you we pushed the idea that we don't need long term studies we can simply trust big pharma to tell the truth. Remember this: https://www.pfizer.com/news/press-release/press-release-detail/pfizer-and-biontech-announce-vaccine-candidate-against https://www.pfizer.com/news/press-release/press-release-deta..., here they "Vaccine candidate was found to be more than 90% effective in preventing COVID-19 in participants without evidence of prior SARS-CoV-2 infection in the first interim efficacy analysis" This is simply a lie. There vaccine literally never was 90% effective in the real world, and currently their vaccine actually has negative efficacy in preventing omnicron. 5) Vaccine Mandates - Look around you. They did absolutely nothing. 6) Booster Mandates - ... if you still believe this can work there is nothing that can be said.
  - falcolas 5y ago
    We have a lot of science. These MRNA vaccines didn't come from nowhere; they have been in development for decades. Thats why the vaccine came so quickly: the foundation was well established. > Eroding the foundations of democracy and modern thought in the repeated failed attempts to prevent the spread of covid is extremely stupid. Quarantine and vaccinations as solutions to infectious, deadly diseases is older than the US. They were even used by the founding fathers in the war for independence.
    - desine 5y ago
      >These MRNA vaccines didn't come from nowhere; they have been in development for decades. And not once could they even get to stage 3 clinical trials. This should be a red flag, not something used to promote them.
  - fabian2k 5y ago
    The vaccine does not have negative efficacy against Omicron. We don't have very solid data here because Omicron is so new, but one recent paper indicates that in a household setting a booster prevents around 50% of Omicron cases. That's not as good as with Delta, but it's not nothing and it's certainly not negative.
    - maxk42 5y ago
      This hasn't been peer-reviewed yet, but preliminary studies are showing that the vaccines actually do have negative efficacy after 90 days: https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.12.20.21267966v2 https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.12.20.21267966v... Yet another point in favor of "Let's not presume until the studies have been completed."
      - fabian2k 5y ago
        > The negative estimates in the final period arguably suggest different behaviour and/or exposure patterns in the vaccinated and unvaccinated cohorts causing underestimation of the VE. This was likely the result of Omicron spreading rapidly initially through single (super-spreading) events causing many infections among young, vaccinated individuals. That's from the linked paper. The authors don't claim at all that the vaccine has negative efficacy, and the study is simply not set up to measure that anyway. You cannot draw this conclusion from the data in this paper.
- xdennis 5y ago
  That's the problem. If we haven't had the time to observe the effects it seems foolhardy to assume everything will be fine.
pm90 5y ago
In the midst of a global pandemic, I think it’s fine to make educated guesses that may not be fully backed by the scientific method. A rational approach requires making the best choice out of the options available.
- kyruzic 5y ago
  - pm90 5y ago
    Stop spreading vaccine skepticism like it’s so scary. The majority of people have realized the only thing left to fear are vaccine skeptics.
shawabawa3 5y ago
There's plenty of science on vaccines Look at how many vaccines active service members are required to have for example
- kyruzic 5y ago
  Please read what I said, you completely failed to understand. There is no science on the effectiveness of vaccine or booster shot mandates. Or on the long term effects of either. And why is what the military mandates on people meaningful whatsoever? Review some history on what the military has mandated in the past.

falcolas 5y ago

How do you accumulate 3 years of data on a vaccine about a year old? Presuming and modeling is what we can do.

kyruzic 5y ago
This is exactly the problem. You have simply decided science isn't needed because "we don't have time". Covid is not nearly as risky as the government and media has tried to convince everyone it is. The vast vast vast majority of people are at essentially 0 risk to covid. Eroding the foundations of democracy and modern thought in the repeated failed attempts to prevent the spread of covid is extremely stupid. I really wonder if people like you are even aware of how miserably every single policy aimed at slowing the spread of covid has failed. 1) lockdown to prevent the spread - did nothing, covid spread rapidly the moment the lockdowns ended, and we did nothing to prepare for it during the time of the lockdowns. We didn't build hospitals, we didn't train nurses, we simply wasted money. 2) Masks Mandates - A minor slow of the spread at the cost of erosion of freedoms, you don't have to be an anti masker to realize this, and the production of huge amounts of waste. 3) More Lockdowns - Same thing as first time. 4) Vaccines - We were promised this was the end, but thanks to people who think like you we pushed the idea that we don't need long term studies we can simply trust big pharma to tell the truth. Remember this: https://www.pfizer.com/news/press-release/press-release-detail/pfizer-and-biontech-announce-vaccine-candidate-against https://www.pfizer.com/news/press-release/press-release-deta..., here they "Vaccine candidate was found to be more than 90% effective in preventing COVID-19 in participants without evidence of prior SARS-CoV-2 infection in the first interim efficacy analysis" This is simply a lie. There vaccine literally never was 90% effective in the real world, and currently their vaccine actually has negative efficacy in preventing omnicron. 5) Vaccine Mandates - Look around you. They did absolutely nothing. 6) Booster Mandates - ... if you still believe this can work there is nothing that can be said.
- falcolas 5y ago
  We have a lot of science. These MRNA vaccines didn't come from nowhere; they have been in development for decades. Thats why the vaccine came so quickly: the foundation was well established. > Eroding the foundations of democracy and modern thought in the repeated failed attempts to prevent the spread of covid is extremely stupid. Quarantine and vaccinations as solutions to infectious, deadly diseases is older than the US. They were even used by the founding fathers in the war for independence.
  - desine 5y ago
    >These MRNA vaccines didn't come from nowhere; they have been in development for decades. And not once could they even get to stage 3 clinical trials. This should be a red flag, not something used to promote them.
- fabian2k 5y ago
  The vaccine does not have negative efficacy against Omicron. We don't have very solid data here because Omicron is so new, but one recent paper indicates that in a household setting a booster prevents around 50% of Omicron cases. That's not as good as with Delta, but it's not nothing and it's certainly not negative.
  - maxk42 5y ago
    This hasn't been peer-reviewed yet, but preliminary studies are showing that the vaccines actually do have negative efficacy after 90 days: https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.12.20.21267966v2 https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.12.20.21267966v... Yet another point in favor of "Let's not presume until the studies have been completed."
    - fabian2k 5y ago
      > The negative estimates in the final period arguably suggest different behaviour and/or exposure patterns in the vaccinated and unvaccinated cohorts causing underestimation of the VE. This was likely the result of Omicron spreading rapidly initially through single (super-spreading) events causing many infections among young, vaccinated individuals. That's from the linked paper. The authors don't claim at all that the vaccine has negative efficacy, and the study is simply not set up to measure that anyway. You cannot draw this conclusion from the data in this paper.
xdennis 5y ago
That's the problem. If we haven't had the time to observe the effects it seems foolhardy to assume everything will be fine.

pm90 5y ago

In the midst of a global pandemic, I think it’s fine to make educated guesses that may not be fully backed by the scientific method. A rational approach requires making the best choice out of the options available.

kyruzic 5y ago
- pm90 5y ago
  Stop spreading vaccine skepticism like it’s so scary. The majority of people have realized the only thing left to fear are vaccine skeptics.

shawabawa3 5y ago

There's plenty of science on vaccines Look at how many vaccines active service members are required to have for example

kyruzic 5y ago
Please read what I said, you completely failed to understand. There is no science on the effectiveness of vaccine or booster shot mandates. Or on the long term effects of either. And why is what the military mandates on people meaningful whatsoever? Review some history on what the military has mandated in the past.