6 ms·

Yes, Other Countries Do Housing Better, Case 2: Germany

51 points by throw0101a 5y ago

_iziv 5y ago
I live in an eastern German city with a university with ca. 24.000 students. The prices have doubled within 10y and weren't affordable for any two incomes below the 95th quantile. The prices in _every_ major city have increased dramatically. The only affordable houses are run down, old ones, half an hour away from public transportation -- barely anybody wants to live there, because of high rate of right wings (eastern Germany), or lack of infrastructure (e.g. medical care). These broken minor towns and cities might decrease the average prices -- failure of the averages! Regarding prices, from my POV the article is made-up nonsense.
- quelltext 5y ago
  I have a hunch it's the same with Japan (part 1 of this). House prices in attractive areas (in and around Tokyo) have increased drastically over the last few years. Meanwhile, houses in the countryside are on the market for almost (and often literally) nothing. I guess the question is what the data is actually measuring. would still expect the graphs to show an increase if they measure the price of actually sold property. Just checked OECD data and to me it looks like prices are rising in similar ways in Germany and the US since 2015. Japan does in fact seem less steep but it's still rising, not flat as the graphs on TFA would suggest: https://data.oecd.org/chart/6ztU https://data.oecd.org/chart/6ztU
  - forgotmyoldname 5y ago
    Just looking around my town, new houses in Japan are also dramatically larger and higher quality than older ones. Older homes were one floor with single pane windows and basically single plane plywood walls. New ones have double paned windows, 2-3 floors, and some degree of insulation in the walls. I’m not sure if that’s the sole factor driving price increases, but I imagine it’s one thing. Houses are generally treated as something to rebuild every 20-40 years here. But I could see newer homes being a buy once, keep your whole life deal.
MichaelRazum 5y ago
German prices are extremly high compared to the sallary. If you want to buy a house in a German major city, you would have to take a credit for your whole life. Really everyone is complaining. It is not affordable. So even persons with high income like doctors or engineers are struggeling. So often you just hear, the only chance is to inherit it...
- chii 5y ago
  > It is not affordable. is renting not an option? Why is only purchasing counted?
  - ghosty141 5y ago
    The majority of adults rent their apartments/homes.
  - tigershark 5y ago
    Renting is the equivalent of throwing away your money paying more than a mortgage in a lifetime and without having anything tangible in your hands after.
    - Ozzie_osman 5y ago
      That's not always true. Renting can definitely be a better decision from a purely economic perspective (just Google "rent vs buy calculator" to see why).
    - fxtentacle 5y ago
      It depends. I would have to pay my current rent for 83 years to match the purchase price of a similar house. Plus if I rent it, then repairs need to be paid for by the housing company. If I buy, then I'm paying for them. So with the current high housing asset prices and low rental prices, purchasing a house doesn't make financial sense.
      - fragmede 5y ago
Aurelius3 5y ago
This article and the other articles on this subject by the author confuse me greatly. He claims that the housing is extremely affordable in all of these countries. The countries he mentioned as good examples or large improvements are Japan, Germany, France, New Zealand, and the United Kingdom. Yet the home ownership of all these countries is around the 60 ~ 65% mark according to wikipedia[1], In germany it is as low as 51%. And this number is for the entire country, This number would be even lower in the urban cities I would wager. If the housing was truly affordable then why is home ownership so low? Furthermore looking at the highest home ownership rates it is mainly ex socialist countries, China, India, smaller Asian countries, and some Caribbean countries. I would guess that the large push to create commie blocks then the subsequent liberalization and deregulation in ex socialist countries is a large factor in this. So if the author wanted examples of "Doing housing better" (subjective) he should have looked elsewhere. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_home_ownership_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_home_owne...
- pjc50 5y ago
  Lower home ownership may be an indication that the rent/buy tradeoff moves more towards rent, and that it's less critical to use leveraged asset price inflation to build wealth. But you're right that any article describing UK housing as "affordable" needs suspicion. Should also compare by size; the one advantage the US does have is much larger houses, on average.
- fy20 5y ago
  I wouldn't consider the UK as a good example of affordable housing. First of all, compared to the rest of Europe houses are small - my parents have a house that's slightly larger than the average, it has 3 bedrooms in 90m2 including the garage. The housing stock - even new houses - are all pretty inefficient and need a lot of energy to heat. The rest of Europe has been pushing energy efficiency standards (in terms of heating demand), especially Scandanavia and the Baltic's, while the UK has pretty much stood still and builds houses today the same as they did 30 years ago. For this you are going to be paying a lot. Two people on average salaries would not be able to get a mortgage for my parents' house, and it's not anywhere near London or other big cities. And that's assuming you could earn an average salary - in their area that would be a bit of a push as most of the jobs are in the service and tourism industry.
_8j50 5y ago
The scale and demographic complexity of the US means you can't compare it as a whole to mono-cultural relatively small states. Brazil or India would be a more apples-to-apples comparison. Or you can compare Germany to US states. Housing is different in new england vs california or vs missisipi.
- avgcorrection 5y ago
  The US is definitely monocultural compared to India and Brazil. So you can’t make those comparisons either, at least according to your own criteria...
  - _8j50 5y ago
    Then you don't understand cultural diversity in the US. There are regional differences like india for example but each city or region in the US tends to self-segregate, some more than others but just about every country has a significant immigrant community in the US which are comparable to smaller ethnic groups in other countries. You may have been thinking there is just racial culture (white, black,etc...) but that is inaccurate. To name a few Irish in boston, italian in nyc, cuban in miami, african american in harlem va NC vs Missisipi, mexican in texas vs california, so many more. The US has the diversity similar but not the how that diversity is defined as with india or brazil.
    - avgcorrection 5y ago
      India for example has so many languages that one has to group them all into different language families. To compare that kind of diversity with third generation Italian-Americans in NYC and how cities have X district (Chinese or whatever) is laughable, and frankly a new low. > The US has the diversity similar but not the how that diversity is defined as with india or brazil. I don’t even know what this sentence is supposed to say but it’s probably not anything profound.
      - _8j50 5y ago
        Every one of those languages in india have native speakers in the US, what's your point? > it’s probably not anything profound. Could say the same, just being pompous. We're not comparing third generation italians with all of india here, we are comparing them the whole of US where italians are one piece with india. If you want 1-to-1 check out immigrant communities in any major city and suburb. I've worked in a team of maybe 20 where at least 7 nationalities and 4-5 native langauges were represented. Unless of course you don't consider naturalized americans lr their children as real americans? I've met Chinese from different parts of china, mexicans from different parts if mexico, indians from different states speaking urdu, punjabi,etc... middle easter people with very different arabic dialects and somehow you think India or Brazil is more diverse? You don't have to have a long established native presence for your culture to count. Heck, ever heard of internet or hacker culture? It's real!
fulafel 5y ago
The rent favouring culture and policies that give strong protections to tenants are really the smart thing to do in housing policy. It doesn't make sense for most people to borrow and put large amounts of capital into one basket where you can't use the #1 risk management tool of normal investment (diversification). Like the article says, Austria is another country where housing is really well run.
627467 5y ago
What is the desire effect? Increase homeownership by increasing housing stock? Germany as a whole does much worse at homeownership than most other countries according to this list.[0] Is the goal stable prices over long period of time? And are we comparing house prices of individual US cities to entire countries (ie. Germany)? I bet that prices in large German cities are much less stable than in smaller ones. [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_home_ownership_rate https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_home_ow...
- Ozzie_osman 5y ago
  Home ownership isn't the goal. It can have a lot of benefits, but downsides too. The goal is affordable housing. With good housing stock, that means people can own OR rent in an affordable manner, depending on what they need.
- fxtentacle 5y ago
  In general the goal in Germany is to make housing affordable. Buying a house is an investment decision and less regulated. But if you own a house and you don't live there or the house is owned by a company, then you are legally required to rent it out at a fair price. So rental tends to be quite affordable, even in cities and nice areas. That's why in cities like Hamburg you can have €1000 monthly rentals but purchasing an equivalent house would be 1200000€
  - luckylion 5y ago
    > That's why in cities like Hamburg you can have €1000 monthly rentals but purchasing an equivalent house would be 1200000€ What? no. Absolutely not. The houses or flats you get for 1.2mm will be more like 3-4k a month if you're renting.
  - nradov 5y ago
    How is a fair price determined? Is that something other than the market price?
whinvik 5y ago
We have been in Germany for a couple of years and in my experience things are changing rapidly. First, it is nearly impossible to get an apartment for rent in the big cities. Second rents are rapidly rising and I don't think it will get better in the near future.
creed 5y ago
Sorry to say but reading this as a native Berliner is really difficult. It seems like the author has never spoken to any German that has been involved in housing in the last 10+ years. I can only second what others in the comments here have already pointed out: current housing and housing prices feel fundamentally broken and completely disconnected from wages and realistic mortgages.
- bierjunge 5y ago
  It's not only in the major cities like Berlin, Munich or Hamburg. Prices skyrocketed even in smaller cities like Karlsruhe or Heidelberg. A 40m² flat can be 300.000€++ and you will need to renovate it. 20 years ago, you could get a house for the money.
vogre 5y ago
Japan is famous for its miniature apartments. Germany is famous for its hundred person lines for apartment rent and notorious living rules. How is it better than anything?
- cycomanic 5y ago
  I think your confusing Germany with another country, I've never seen a 100 person line for an apartment there. Mind you Sweden has those (although they are virtual). This is mostly a function of completely missing the boat on population growth and the necessary investments. It's been the same all over the world, lobbyist hamstringing the public systems reducing investments because "government bloat" the systems then fail to work adequately which is being used to lobby against the systems as "not working".
  - MauranKilom 5y ago
    Here are some numbers for applicants per apartment in Germany: https://www.immobilienscout24.de/ratgeber/immobiliensuche-tipps/aktuelle-themen/konkurrenz-wohnungssuche.html https://www.immobilienscout24.de/ratgeber/immobiliensuche-ti... (I believe they report the number for the district with the highest average.) München: 77 Stuttgart: 75 Köln: 53
    - hulitu 5y ago
      And the situation is the same for suburbs or close cities to these big cities.
  - lentil_soup 5y ago
    > I think your confusing Germany with another country, I've never seen a 100 person line for an apartment there Not a 100 person, but at least in Frankfurt it is quite common to show up to a rental apartment viewing where a lot of other people are also visiting
  - bluefirex 5y ago
    I moved to Hamburg this year. I had 16 flat visits in total, 12 of which I had to share with at least 30 other people. It really is that way.
jebentier 5y ago
Have to agree with the majority of commenters here. I’m an American expat in Berlin for 2 years now and the housing market is completely broken. Not only are prices continuing to go up, but the governments are blocking building to meet demand for affordable housing and renovations of older housing. If a person is able to buy something that is affordable in a major city, it is guaranteed to need an equal amount invested in renovations. In general the German population doesn’t care about owning property (last I saw only 40% of the country had actual interest in home ownership) and so this puts the market in the hands of the landlords entirely. Germany is currently trying to combat against conglomerates coming in and buying out buildings to own outright and rent out, setting their own price for the rent. This kind of renting is becoming more and more widespread which is also contributing to the ever rising prices for rental housing.
- mariusor 5y ago
  > it is guaranteed to need an equal amount invested in renovations Unless you mean that as a hyperbole, I doubt it very much. Prices for flats, I believe, range from 400.000EUR up, and investing that much into renovations would bring you a marble, teak and gold leaf finishing house.
- Joeri 5y ago
  Sounds like they’re fighting the symptoms instead of the cause. You can’t pump billions in subsidies into the market, lower interest rates to the floor to prevent that money from going around capital markets and not expect some kind of dysfunctional price rise in the real estate market. Money finds its way to where it provides the best return, and right now that is real estate in most markets. Trying to fight this tide at the real estate end is somewhat futile. The governments need to give the money a better place to go.
  - nwah1 5y ago
    Right. The correct approach is to tax land by value, but exempt improvements. Make it expensive to do idle speculation and cheap to renovate or build.
- 5y ago
gego 5y ago
You should definitely look at Austria's "Sozialer Wohnbau" and "Gemeindebau" in Vienna https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gemeindebau https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gemeindebau Also look at the conference series Working Class Districts and Urban Policies https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://publik.tuwien.ac.at/files/publik_267566.pdf https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https:/...

51 points by throw0101a 5y ago

I live in an eastern German city with a university with ca. 24.000 students. The prices have doubled within 10y and weren't affordable for any two incomes below the 95th quantile. The prices in _every_ major city have increased dramatically. The only affordable houses are run down, old ones, half an hour away from public transportation -- barely anybody wants to live there, because of high rate of right wings (eastern Germany), or lack of infrastructure (e.g. medical care). These broken minor towns and cities might decrease the average prices -- failure of the averages! Regarding prices, from my POV the article is made-up nonsense.

quelltext 5y ago
I have a hunch it's the same with Japan (part 1 of this). House prices in attractive areas (in and around Tokyo) have increased drastically over the last few years. Meanwhile, houses in the countryside are on the market for almost (and often literally) nothing. I guess the question is what the data is actually measuring. would still expect the graphs to show an increase if they measure the price of actually sold property. Just checked OECD data and to me it looks like prices are rising in similar ways in Germany and the US since 2015. Japan does in fact seem less steep but it's still rising, not flat as the graphs on TFA would suggest: https://data.oecd.org/chart/6ztU https://data.oecd.org/chart/6ztU
- forgotmyoldname 5y ago
  Just looking around my town, new houses in Japan are also dramatically larger and higher quality than older ones. Older homes were one floor with single pane windows and basically single plane plywood walls. New ones have double paned windows, 2-3 floors, and some degree of insulation in the walls. I’m not sure if that’s the sole factor driving price increases, but I imagine it’s one thing. Houses are generally treated as something to rebuild every 20-40 years here. But I could see newer homes being a buy once, keep your whole life deal.

MichaelRazum 5y ago

German prices are extremly high compared to the sallary. If you want to buy a house in a German major city, you would have to take a credit for your whole life. Really everyone is complaining. It is not affordable. So even persons with high income like doctors or engineers are struggeling. So often you just hear, the only chance is to inherit it...

chii 5y ago
> It is not affordable. is renting not an option? Why is only purchasing counted?
- ghosty141 5y ago
  The majority of adults rent their apartments/homes.
- tigershark 5y ago
  Renting is the equivalent of throwing away your money paying more than a mortgage in a lifetime and without having anything tangible in your hands after.
  - Ozzie_osman 5y ago
    That's not always true. Renting can definitely be a better decision from a purely economic perspective (just Google "rent vs buy calculator" to see why).
  - fxtentacle 5y ago
    It depends. I would have to pay my current rent for 83 years to match the purchase price of a similar house. Plus if I rent it, then repairs need to be paid for by the housing company. If I buy, then I'm paying for them. So with the current high housing asset prices and low rental prices, purchasing a house doesn't make financial sense.
    - fragmede 5y ago

Aurelius3 5y ago

This article and the other articles on this subject by the author confuse me greatly. He claims that the housing is extremely affordable in all of these countries. The countries he mentioned as good examples or large improvements are Japan, Germany, France, New Zealand, and the United Kingdom. Yet the home ownership of all these countries is around the 60 ~ 65% mark according to wikipedia[1], In germany it is as low as 51%. And this number is for the entire country, This number would be even lower in the urban cities I would wager. If the housing was truly affordable then why is home ownership so low? Furthermore looking at the highest home ownership rates it is mainly ex socialist countries, China, India, smaller Asian countries, and some Caribbean countries. I would guess that the large push to create commie blocks then the subsequent liberalization and deregulation in ex socialist countries is a large factor in this. So if the author wanted examples of "Doing housing better" (subjective) he should have looked elsewhere. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_home_ownership_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_home_owne...

pjc50 5y ago
Lower home ownership may be an indication that the rent/buy tradeoff moves more towards rent, and that it's less critical to use leveraged asset price inflation to build wealth. But you're right that any article describing UK housing as "affordable" needs suspicion. Should also compare by size; the one advantage the US does have is much larger houses, on average.
fy20 5y ago
I wouldn't consider the UK as a good example of affordable housing. First of all, compared to the rest of Europe houses are small - my parents have a house that's slightly larger than the average, it has 3 bedrooms in 90m2 including the garage. The housing stock - even new houses - are all pretty inefficient and need a lot of energy to heat. The rest of Europe has been pushing energy efficiency standards (in terms of heating demand), especially Scandanavia and the Baltic's, while the UK has pretty much stood still and builds houses today the same as they did 30 years ago. For this you are going to be paying a lot. Two people on average salaries would not be able to get a mortgage for my parents' house, and it's not anywhere near London or other big cities. And that's assuming you could earn an average salary - in their area that would be a bit of a push as most of the jobs are in the service and tourism industry.

_8j50 5y ago

The scale and demographic complexity of the US means you can't compare it as a whole to mono-cultural relatively small states. Brazil or India would be a more apples-to-apples comparison. Or you can compare Germany to US states. Housing is different in new england vs california or vs missisipi.

avgcorrection 5y ago
The US is definitely monocultural compared to India and Brazil. So you can’t make those comparisons either, at least according to your own criteria...
- _8j50 5y ago
  Then you don't understand cultural diversity in the US. There are regional differences like india for example but each city or region in the US tends to self-segregate, some more than others but just about every country has a significant immigrant community in the US which are comparable to smaller ethnic groups in other countries. You may have been thinking there is just racial culture (white, black,etc...) but that is inaccurate. To name a few Irish in boston, italian in nyc, cuban in miami, african american in harlem va NC vs Missisipi, mexican in texas vs california, so many more. The US has the diversity similar but not the how that diversity is defined as with india or brazil.
  - avgcorrection 5y ago
    India for example has so many languages that one has to group them all into different language families. To compare that kind of diversity with third generation Italian-Americans in NYC and how cities have X district (Chinese or whatever) is laughable, and frankly a new low. > The US has the diversity similar but not the how that diversity is defined as with india or brazil. I don’t even know what this sentence is supposed to say but it’s probably not anything profound.
    - _8j50 5y ago
      Every one of those languages in india have native speakers in the US, what's your point? > it’s probably not anything profound. Could say the same, just being pompous. We're not comparing third generation italians with all of india here, we are comparing them the whole of US where italians are one piece with india. If you want 1-to-1 check out immigrant communities in any major city and suburb. I've worked in a team of maybe 20 where at least 7 nationalities and 4-5 native langauges were represented. Unless of course you don't consider naturalized americans lr their children as real americans? I've met Chinese from different parts of china, mexicans from different parts if mexico, indians from different states speaking urdu, punjabi,etc... middle easter people with very different arabic dialects and somehow you think India or Brazil is more diverse? You don't have to have a long established native presence for your culture to count. Heck, ever heard of internet or hacker culture? It's real!

fulafel 5y ago

The rent favouring culture and policies that give strong protections to tenants are really the smart thing to do in housing policy. It doesn't make sense for most people to borrow and put large amounts of capital into one basket where you can't use the #1 risk management tool of normal investment (diversification). Like the article says, Austria is another country where housing is really well run.

627467 5y ago

What is the desire effect? Increase homeownership by increasing housing stock? Germany as a whole does much worse at homeownership than most other countries according to this list.[0] Is the goal stable prices over long period of time? And are we comparing house prices of individual US cities to entire countries (ie. Germany)? I bet that prices in large German cities are much less stable than in smaller ones. [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_home_ownership_rate https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_home_ow...

Ozzie_osman 5y ago
Home ownership isn't the goal. It can have a lot of benefits, but downsides too. The goal is affordable housing. With good housing stock, that means people can own OR rent in an affordable manner, depending on what they need.
fxtentacle 5y ago
In general the goal in Germany is to make housing affordable. Buying a house is an investment decision and less regulated. But if you own a house and you don't live there or the house is owned by a company, then you are legally required to rent it out at a fair price. So rental tends to be quite affordable, even in cities and nice areas. That's why in cities like Hamburg you can have €1000 monthly rentals but purchasing an equivalent house would be 1200000€
- luckylion 5y ago
  > That's why in cities like Hamburg you can have €1000 monthly rentals but purchasing an equivalent house would be 1200000€ What? no. Absolutely not. The houses or flats you get for 1.2mm will be more like 3-4k a month if you're renting.
- nradov 5y ago
  How is a fair price determined? Is that something other than the market price?

whinvik 5y ago

We have been in Germany for a couple of years and in my experience things are changing rapidly. First, it is nearly impossible to get an apartment for rent in the big cities. Second rents are rapidly rising and I don't think it will get better in the near future.

creed 5y ago

Sorry to say but reading this as a native Berliner is really difficult. It seems like the author has never spoken to any German that has been involved in housing in the last 10+ years. I can only second what others in the comments here have already pointed out: current housing and housing prices feel fundamentally broken and completely disconnected from wages and realistic mortgages.

bierjunge 5y ago
It's not only in the major cities like Berlin, Munich or Hamburg. Prices skyrocketed even in smaller cities like Karlsruhe or Heidelberg. A 40m² flat can be 300.000€++ and you will need to renovate it. 20 years ago, you could get a house for the money.

vogre 5y ago

Japan is famous for its miniature apartments. Germany is famous for its hundred person lines for apartment rent and notorious living rules. How is it better than anything?

cycomanic 5y ago
I think your confusing Germany with another country, I've never seen a 100 person line for an apartment there. Mind you Sweden has those (although they are virtual). This is mostly a function of completely missing the boat on population growth and the necessary investments. It's been the same all over the world, lobbyist hamstringing the public systems reducing investments because "government bloat" the systems then fail to work adequately which is being used to lobby against the systems as "not working".
- MauranKilom 5y ago
  Here are some numbers for applicants per apartment in Germany: https://www.immobilienscout24.de/ratgeber/immobiliensuche-tipps/aktuelle-themen/konkurrenz-wohnungssuche.html https://www.immobilienscout24.de/ratgeber/immobiliensuche-ti... (I believe they report the number for the district with the highest average.) München: 77 Stuttgart: 75 Köln: 53
  - hulitu 5y ago
    And the situation is the same for suburbs or close cities to these big cities.
- lentil_soup 5y ago
  > I think your confusing Germany with another country, I've never seen a 100 person line for an apartment there Not a 100 person, but at least in Frankfurt it is quite common to show up to a rental apartment viewing where a lot of other people are also visiting
- bluefirex 5y ago
  I moved to Hamburg this year. I had 16 flat visits in total, 12 of which I had to share with at least 30 other people. It really is that way.

jebentier 5y ago

Have to agree with the majority of commenters here. I’m an American expat in Berlin for 2 years now and the housing market is completely broken. Not only are prices continuing to go up, but the governments are blocking building to meet demand for affordable housing and renovations of older housing. If a person is able to buy something that is affordable in a major city, it is guaranteed to need an equal amount invested in renovations. In general the German population doesn’t care about owning property (last I saw only 40% of the country had actual interest in home ownership) and so this puts the market in the hands of the landlords entirely. Germany is currently trying to combat against conglomerates coming in and buying out buildings to own outright and rent out, setting their own price for the rent. This kind of renting is becoming more and more widespread which is also contributing to the ever rising prices for rental housing.

mariusor 5y ago
> it is guaranteed to need an equal amount invested in renovations Unless you mean that as a hyperbole, I doubt it very much. Prices for flats, I believe, range from 400.000EUR up, and investing that much into renovations would bring you a marble, teak and gold leaf finishing house.
Joeri 5y ago
Sounds like they’re fighting the symptoms instead of the cause. You can’t pump billions in subsidies into the market, lower interest rates to the floor to prevent that money from going around capital markets and not expect some kind of dysfunctional price rise in the real estate market. Money finds its way to where it provides the best return, and right now that is real estate in most markets. Trying to fight this tide at the real estate end is somewhat futile. The governments need to give the money a better place to go.
- nwah1 5y ago
  Right. The correct approach is to tax land by value, but exempt improvements. Make it expensive to do idle speculation and cheap to renovate or build.
5y ago

gego 5y ago

You should definitely look at Austria's "Sozialer Wohnbau" and "Gemeindebau" in Vienna https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gemeindebau https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gemeindebau Also look at the conference series Working Class Districts and Urban Policies https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://publik.tuwien.ac.at/files/publik_267566.pdf https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https:/...