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Pretty much everyone I know who worked in Software at Apple had a bad experience. The common refrain was that engineers are treated like crap at apple, and it's

Pretty much everyone I know who worked in Software at Apple had a bad experience. The common refrain was that engineers are treated like crap at apple, and it's the designers who get all the glory. It makes me excited for the future of software engineering to see moves like this. Clearly Apple, and many other companies, are starting to understand just how critical devs are to a modern business. And they are finding that to get good devs, you have to treat devs well too, in order to compete with companies like Google & Meta. My bet: salaries, especially for experienced engineers, continue to skyrocket.

jjtheblunt 5y ago
I worked in software & hardware engineering at Apple, we don't know one another, and nothing you cite as the common refrain was true anywhere around our world. We were treated excellently, and I loved it. (Quit for a science job far away, total non sequitur, not because of Apple)
- ozzythecat 5y ago
  This is a recurring theme of posts that authoritatively attempt to describe the “hopeless” working conditions of highly compensated employees at big tech company <X>. I’ve been at one of the FAANGs for about 7 years. I’ve been on some amazing teams but also my share of office bs and difficult people. From reading HN’s characterization of my work environment, I’m depressed, completely stressed out, and everyone I work with is a horrible human being. I mean, if I wasn’t depressed before, I’m more likely to be depressed after reading some of these posts. As much as folks on even this site rally against FB, the constant stream of negativity or opinions - on why we should all hate X or why Y is evil - is easily found even here on HN.
- ksec 5y ago
  I think there is a major difference between Steve-Jobs era and Tim Cook era. Lots of people's past experience may have been Steve Jobs or slightly past Steve Jobs era from 11 - 14, where most of the things stayed the same. I tend to think 2015 was a turning point. And everything after is Tim Cook era. Also depends on org as well, for example vast majority of bad comments could be traced back to Apple IS&T. And you dont even need insider story to tell, simply judge them by IS&T's output on iCloud and any services.
  - jjtheblunt 5y ago
    I was there for both eras, and what you wrote seems plausible. It did seem pointless bureaucracy attempts were more prevalent after 2015 or so, from what i observed, and such were explicitly spoken of as forbidden before 2011, for example.
gjsman-1000 5y ago
If the designers get all the glory… sign me up! Maybe I’m naive, but designing UI stuff is a lot less stressful than making things actually work.
- double_nan 5y ago
  Designers and PMs. Apple is being ran by designers and PMs. Which is not really a bad thing from users point of view.
  - baxtr 5y ago
    Apple has product managers?
    - eigen 5y ago
      > Apple has product managers? hiring so many project managers. https://jobs.apple.com/en-us/search?search=pm&sort=relevance&location=united-states-USA https://jobs.apple.com/en-us/search?search=pm&sort=relevance...
      - baxtr 5y ago
        Project vs Product
    - zffr 5y ago
      Parent commenter might mean EPMs (engineering program managers). They are basically project managers and keep software releases on time. They do tend to hold a lot of power at apple. I don’t think I have never come across an actual product manager at apple. Design tends to make on most of that responsibility
      - baxtr 5y ago
        Exactly. Design and Eng as far as I know. Project managers is a whole different thing…
  - 5y ago
double_nan 5y ago
From my point of view there is a hierarchy of swe’s at apple. On the top are iOS devs - the one who are the closest to the users and execs. Next are macos, hardware, backend. After all of that you have IST eng (i hope that i remember the name of the org correctly) and not really people from Apple’s point of view: contractors.
ChrisMarshallNY 5y ago
I never worked at Apple, but I've been an Apple developer, since they were a pretty scruffy outfit, and everyone was waiting for them to go belly-up. From my perspective, Apple has always treated their engineers quite well. Guy Kawasaki once said that "Working for Apple is like being paid to go to Disneyland." It may no longer be the case, but I have always assumed that engineers at Apple have always felt valued.
- sincerely 5y ago
  So you've never worked for Apple but think people should know what you imagine people at Apple think?
  - ChrisMarshallNY 5y ago
    > So you've never worked for Apple but think people should know what you imagine people at Apple think? I thought we didn't post personal attacks on HN. That was uncalled-for.
    - thehappypm 5y ago
      Seems like an attack on your qualification to make that statement, not you yourself
      - ChrisMarshallNY 5y ago
        I clearly, and unambiguously spelled out my qualification (30+ years of working with very happy Apple engineers), and also clearly stated that I have never worked there, myself. I was extremely careful not to write in a confrontational manner. It was merely a vague statement, of my own personal PoV, based on a great deal of personal experience (I've been writing Apple software since 1986). Much of that time was spent, working for very respected corporations that had a close working relationship with Apple engineering. I spent a great deal of time, working directly with Apple engineers and managers. I have also had many, many training sessions at Apple (back when they did that). I've spent a lot of time, in the Apple ecosystem. It doesn't escape my notice that lots of other folks that haven't worked for Apple have been more than happy to post their opinions, here. Apple seems to be a bit of a lightning rod. I can tell you that anyone that has developed for them, as long as I have, has become quite used to torrents of abuse. I can't even imagine what Apple employees had to go through (actually, I can, because they told me). I have to add that I have never had any interaction with either of you two folks, yet your very first interaction with me, was an attack. That may fly on Facebook or Twitter, but it may be ... less than ideal ... in a professional environment (which I definitely consider HN). Note that I make it absolutely clear who I am, how to get in touch with me, and how to find out more about me. It encourages me to behave well. I deleted my last anonymous social media account, years ago. This is a community. I consider it to be a professional community, and I value the considered input of professionals. I learn something every day from HN, and have great respect for many of its participants. It is not a good idea for me to start relationships off in a pugilistic manner. I am likely to reduce the number of opportunities for me to grow; both personally, and professionally.
argitest34 5y ago
The standard way to describe Apple is that there are good and bad teams. My experience there (SWE org) was 70+ hour workweeks, backstabbing, more politics than anywhere else I've ever worked by a factor of ten, useless leadership (director had no charisma or leadership skills, but seemed to have the Jobs personality...), fear of senior management (director, VPs) by managers, and every other negative anecdote about a toxic workplace you can come up with. That being said, I have colleagues in other orgs/teams that love their job, work 30 hours a week on average, have strong managers, interesting work, and shockingly higher pay. So, there are good teams and there are bad teams. Unfortunately, you only hear that because there are often far more bad teams than good. I've been impressed that Apple has thus far avoided one of those "Amazon is the worst company to work for" NYT articles. The lows are so unbelievably low at Apple if you end up on a bad team.
- exBarrelSpoiler 5y ago
  I have also experienced some uniquely Apple lows in my time. The mini-Jobs personality problem is spot-on, there are some middle managers there who are unprofessionally rude, mean, even dictatorial. The stress is ratcheted up by ironclad deadlines that entire orgs live and die by. And for a long time a lot of internal systems were absurdly out of date even though they belonged to such a cutting-edge company.
PragmaticPulp 5y ago
FWIW, the Apple software devs I know really enjoy their jobs. They all agree that it's not easy work, but I don't know anyone there who claims mistreatment. Small sample size, of course. > It makes me excited for the future of software engineering to see moves like this. Clearly Apple, and many other companies, are starting to understand just how critical devs are to a modern business. As a counterpoint, some of the highest paid non-FAANG jobs I had had some of the worst treatment of engineers. The high salaries were used to compensate for the terrible treatment and make it harder for employees to leave. In one case, many of us left and gladly took lower compensation at other companies just to get out. And of course, the jobs were immediately backfilled with new people eager to cash in on the high salaries. Money is an easy way to fill seats, but treating people well is the only way to keep them there.
- zffr 5y ago
  As a former engineer in SWE, I don’t think there was mistreatment, but I definitely felt like designers were treated (slightly)better. At the minimum they seemed to have better snacks back in Infinite Loop!
  - seanmcdirmid 5y ago
    Designers have often get some nice amenities to make up for less pay than SWEs. Design managers also seem to be more emphatic and experienced.

jjtheblunt 5y ago

I worked in software & hardware engineering at Apple, we don't know one another, and nothing you cite as the common refrain was true anywhere around our world. We were treated excellently, and I loved it. (Quit for a science job far away, total non sequitur, not because of Apple)

ozzythecat 5y ago
This is a recurring theme of posts that authoritatively attempt to describe the “hopeless” working conditions of highly compensated employees at big tech company <X>. I’ve been at one of the FAANGs for about 7 years. I’ve been on some amazing teams but also my share of office bs and difficult people. From reading HN’s characterization of my work environment, I’m depressed, completely stressed out, and everyone I work with is a horrible human being. I mean, if I wasn’t depressed before, I’m more likely to be depressed after reading some of these posts. As much as folks on even this site rally against FB, the constant stream of negativity or opinions - on why we should all hate X or why Y is evil - is easily found even here on HN.
ksec 5y ago
I think there is a major difference between Steve-Jobs era and Tim Cook era. Lots of people's past experience may have been Steve Jobs or slightly past Steve Jobs era from 11 - 14, where most of the things stayed the same. I tend to think 2015 was a turning point. And everything after is Tim Cook era. Also depends on org as well, for example vast majority of bad comments could be traced back to Apple IS&T. And you dont even need insider story to tell, simply judge them by IS&T's output on iCloud and any services.
- jjtheblunt 5y ago
  I was there for both eras, and what you wrote seems plausible. It did seem pointless bureaucracy attempts were more prevalent after 2015 or so, from what i observed, and such were explicitly spoken of as forbidden before 2011, for example.

gjsman-1000 5y ago

If the designers get all the glory… sign me up! Maybe I’m naive, but designing UI stuff is a lot less stressful than making things actually work.

double_nan 5y ago
Designers and PMs. Apple is being ran by designers and PMs. Which is not really a bad thing from users point of view.
- baxtr 5y ago
  Apple has product managers?
  - eigen 5y ago
    > Apple has product managers? hiring so many project managers. https://jobs.apple.com/en-us/search?search=pm&sort=relevance&location=united-states-USA https://jobs.apple.com/en-us/search?search=pm&sort=relevance...
    - baxtr 5y ago
      Project vs Product
  - zffr 5y ago
    Parent commenter might mean EPMs (engineering program managers). They are basically project managers and keep software releases on time. They do tend to hold a lot of power at apple. I don’t think I have never come across an actual product manager at apple. Design tends to make on most of that responsibility
    - baxtr 5y ago
      Exactly. Design and Eng as far as I know. Project managers is a whole different thing…
- 5y ago

double_nan 5y ago

From my point of view there is a hierarchy of swe’s at apple. On the top are iOS devs - the one who are the closest to the users and execs. Next are macos, hardware, backend. After all of that you have IST eng (i hope that i remember the name of the org correctly) and not really people from Apple’s point of view: contractors.

ChrisMarshallNY 5y ago

I never worked at Apple, but I've been an Apple developer, since they were a pretty scruffy outfit, and everyone was waiting for them to go belly-up. From my perspective, Apple has always treated their engineers quite well. Guy Kawasaki once said that "Working for Apple is like being paid to go to Disneyland." It may no longer be the case, but I have always assumed that engineers at Apple have always felt valued.

sincerely 5y ago
So you've never worked for Apple but think people should know what you imagine people at Apple think?
- ChrisMarshallNY 5y ago
  > So you've never worked for Apple but think people should know what you imagine people at Apple think? I thought we didn't post personal attacks on HN. That was uncalled-for.
  - thehappypm 5y ago
    Seems like an attack on your qualification to make that statement, not you yourself
    - ChrisMarshallNY 5y ago
      I clearly, and unambiguously spelled out my qualification (30+ years of working with very happy Apple engineers), and also clearly stated that I have never worked there, myself. I was extremely careful not to write in a confrontational manner. It was merely a vague statement, of my own personal PoV, based on a great deal of personal experience (I've been writing Apple software since 1986). Much of that time was spent, working for very respected corporations that had a close working relationship with Apple engineering. I spent a great deal of time, working directly with Apple engineers and managers. I have also had many, many training sessions at Apple (back when they did that). I've spent a lot of time, in the Apple ecosystem. It doesn't escape my notice that lots of other folks that haven't worked for Apple have been more than happy to post their opinions, here. Apple seems to be a bit of a lightning rod. I can tell you that anyone that has developed for them, as long as I have, has become quite used to torrents of abuse. I can't even imagine what Apple employees had to go through (actually, I can, because they told me). I have to add that I have never had any interaction with either of you two folks, yet your very first interaction with me, was an attack. That may fly on Facebook or Twitter, but it may be ... less than ideal ... in a professional environment (which I definitely consider HN). Note that I make it absolutely clear who I am, how to get in touch with me, and how to find out more about me. It encourages me to behave well. I deleted my last anonymous social media account, years ago. This is a community. I consider it to be a professional community, and I value the considered input of professionals. I learn something every day from HN, and have great respect for many of its participants. It is not a good idea for me to start relationships off in a pugilistic manner. I am likely to reduce the number of opportunities for me to grow; both personally, and professionally.

argitest34 5y ago

The standard way to describe Apple is that there are good and bad teams. My experience there (SWE org) was 70+ hour workweeks, backstabbing, more politics than anywhere else I've ever worked by a factor of ten, useless leadership (director had no charisma or leadership skills, but seemed to have the Jobs personality...), fear of senior management (director, VPs) by managers, and every other negative anecdote about a toxic workplace you can come up with. That being said, I have colleagues in other orgs/teams that love their job, work 30 hours a week on average, have strong managers, interesting work, and shockingly higher pay. So, there are good teams and there are bad teams. Unfortunately, you only hear that because there are often far more bad teams than good. I've been impressed that Apple has thus far avoided one of those "Amazon is the worst company to work for" NYT articles. The lows are so unbelievably low at Apple if you end up on a bad team.

exBarrelSpoiler 5y ago
I have also experienced some uniquely Apple lows in my time. The mini-Jobs personality problem is spot-on, there are some middle managers there who are unprofessionally rude, mean, even dictatorial. The stress is ratcheted up by ironclad deadlines that entire orgs live and die by. And for a long time a lot of internal systems were absurdly out of date even though they belonged to such a cutting-edge company.

PragmaticPulp 5y ago

FWIW, the Apple software devs I know really enjoy their jobs. They all agree that it's not easy work, but I don't know anyone there who claims mistreatment. Small sample size, of course. > It makes me excited for the future of software engineering to see moves like this. Clearly Apple, and many other companies, are starting to understand just how critical devs are to a modern business. As a counterpoint, some of the highest paid non-FAANG jobs I had had some of the worst treatment of engineers. The high salaries were used to compensate for the terrible treatment and make it harder for employees to leave. In one case, many of us left and gladly took lower compensation at other companies just to get out. And of course, the jobs were immediately backfilled with new people eager to cash in on the high salaries. Money is an easy way to fill seats, but treating people well is the only way to keep them there.

zffr 5y ago
As a former engineer in SWE, I don’t think there was mistreatment, but I definitely felt like designers were treated (slightly)better. At the minimum they seemed to have better snacks back in Infinite Loop!
- seanmcdirmid 5y ago
  Designers have often get some nice amenities to make up for less pay than SWEs. Design managers also seem to be more emphatic and experienced.