11 ms·

I am very worried about this. While I love (and sometimes use) eSIMs, the physical SIM has a huge advantage in that it gives me freedom. It's the revolution th

by jwr 5y ago

I am very worried about this. While I love (and sometimes use) eSIMs, the physical SIM has a huge advantage in that it gives me freedom. It's the revolution that GSM brought: just take your SIM and move it to a different phone. No permission required. Arguably we've become slaves to ecosystems of either Apple or Google at this point, as pretty much nobody uses a phone as "just a phone", you need to have an account with one of those behemoths in order to use just about any app. But still. The physical SIM is (was?) one of the last remnants of the freedom we had to switch phones.

jacob019 5y ago
You don't need a google account to use an android phone, there are fantastic open source apps on f-droid, and you can even access the play store without a google account using aurora store. If you have root you can fully degoogle (PITA but gratifying), even without it's a big privacy upgrade to just disable the google apps and log out of google.
csunbird 5y ago
I am sorry, but what? You can just remove the association of the eSIM with the telephone and activate it in another. There is no lock in here.
- intricatedetail 5y ago
  Yet.
  - csunbird 5y ago
    The SIM vendor lock in does exist with the physical SIM card already, with the vendor sold phones.
    - larrysalibra 5y ago
      Carriers can also configure physical SIMs to only work with certain equipment.
    - tjoff 5y ago
      It exist, yes. But isn't used much in practice (where I live at least). I think it is illegal to charge to unlock them so the incentive for them to exist disappeared entirely. Which kind of highlighted that it was a dark-pattern that only served to trick customers. Kind of reinforces the notion that we should be worried...
- Nextgrid 5y ago
  Sorry, you can't. The e-SIM provisioning process is under the control of the carrier. They give you a QR code (or SM-DP string) which you scan/enter, your phone then contacts the carrier and after some back and forth acquires cryptographic keys which are stored in the eSIM chip. There is no way to extract these cryptographic keys and enter them into another phone. Instead, you have to repeat the whole process and get a new QR code from the carrier. They may charge for this, or just be a pain in general and make it difficult or refuse for whatever reason. I can see them taking advantage of this to prevent travellers using local SIMs for example - sure you can delete your eSIM and get a local one, but getting your own eSIM back will be difficult or outright impossible if you're still travelling (they may require physical ID verification, etc).
  - ceejayoz 5y ago
    Could Apple permit you to store multiple provisioned eSIMs on one device, and switch between via UI?
    - rosndo 5y ago
      That’s literally how it works… You can have as many eSIMs as you’d like, I currently have 8 on my phone and can choose which two I want to have active at any time. I’m not sure why nextgrid is constructing this weird technological strawman.
      - Nextgrid 5y ago
        Apologies - I was not aware you can have multiple eSIMs stored. If that's the case it lessens the impact, though switching between phones is still a problem.
        rosndo 5y ago
        Not any more than with regular physical SIMs, if your carrier wants to be shit they can lock a physical SIM to a specific device too.
hk1337 5y ago
This was my thoughts as well. It seems like we just drove around in a circle and ended up back where we have to contact the provider when we change phones.
jdavis703 5y ago
There’s still IMEI locks. A lot of prepaid carriers in Europe won’t or can’t sell you a SIM card for a US phone (one man claimed it was due to carriers trying to reduce phone theft). Note, my phone was fully paid for, and therefor unlocked.
- rchaud 5y ago
  With my Samsung Android phone I had to call my carrier's customer support and obtain the unlock code from them. So it wasn't unlocked automatically after it was fully paid for. When I traveled to Europe I just bought a local carrier SIM from a vending machine at the airport.
  - Nextgrid 5y ago
    Automatic unlocks is mostly an iPhone thing. iOS manages SIM locks differently (in fact on modern devices the modem itself isn't even locked, instead it's all done at the OS-level; Apple has a mapping of serial number to authorized carrier(s), to which the carriers can request changes remotely without having to provide an unlock code or requiring any user action).
- dkjaudyeqooe 5y ago
  I've never encountered this, which country are you talking about?
mrtksn 5y ago
I share your concerns but at the same time I think, why would we even need a SIM? Isn't it simply a device for accessing account on someones system? We don't have SIMs for ADSL or Fiber internet? We don't have SIMs for Reddit ot Twitter? Why would we have SIMs accessing GSM networks? There's no fundamental reason why we simply don't sign in into these networks like signing in to HN. Surely, it adds a layer of anonymity and freedom where you simply use the system by paying it however there's an ongoing trend all over the world of de-anonymisation. In many places they are asking for ID and other documents in order to provide you with a SIM. Physical SIM now means, it's yet another obsolete tech that costs money and takes space inside the devices only to sustain anonymity that is no longer desired. SIM is just another causality on the way towards the tightly controlled world. IMHO, it needs to happen at some point but we also need to rethink our rights in a world that is run by these huge networks. Wouldn't be nice if our phones could have simply scanned for the networks, receive the offers from the available networks, pay and start using it?
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- junon 5y ago
  Because SIMs require the physical card. You cannot forge a SIM without the SIM itself. There's a physical second factor. Usernames and passwords get leaked all the time, and since Reddit et al are meant to be accessed by multiple devices, device-locking them would be antithetical and anti-consumer. A phone service is implicitly device-locked (well, doesn't have to be, but it doesn't make sense to allow multiple devices per number anyway). Just using device credentials could allow anyone to log in with that information and use your subscription or pose as you. As for ADSL or other forms of internet, there is already a second factor - ISPs generally know from which vicinity you are connecting from, and when you log in with your account information in your modem, they can match what's on your account to your physical "drop" and assert that it is at least within the same neighborhood - again, creating a physical second factor. This is also why your internet service generally needs to be "moved" whenever you change your residence. A SIM card allows the freedom as the GP mentioned, without requiring someone from the centralized authority to process the request somehow. There is a huge difference if you think about it for a bit.
PragmaticPulp 5y ago
> Arguably we've become slaves to ecosystems of either Apple or Google at this point I’m far more worried about the SIM cards than Apple or Google. Did you know that SIM cards run Java? Or that they can send text messages from your phone directly to the baseband without going through the phone itself? Your SIM is probably sending data to your carrier without you knowing. ( https://scribe.rip/telecom-expert/what-is-at-t-doing-at-1111340002-c418876c212c https://scribe.rip/telecom-expert/what-is-at-t-doing-at-1111... ) Get rid of SIM cards and let’s move everything to purely digital number porting. That doesn’t mean you can’t add or change your provider when you travel, it just means you do it through the user interface instead of removing a little card that runs Java and has access to your baseband.
- Nextgrid 5y ago
  > move everything to purely digital number porting There's a common misconception that SIM == number. That's not the case. The SIM is simply the identity of your device to a carrier. > a little card that runs Java I believe (it's now been a few years since I've skimmed the spec) that the eSIM chip can also run Java and download applets.
- jacob019 5y ago
  Sure, but the sim doesn't have access to the main CPU, main memory, storage, or sensors (without help from an app which can just as easily leak data without help from the sim) I fail to see how it compromises security any more than an eSIM.
- gime_tree_fiddy 5y ago
  The full portability won't be the same across multiple regions, especially internationally. Also, there is a good chance it gets tied to the device/contract you are on, similar to how the phone contracts in the US were a few years ago.
- Isthatablackgsd 5y ago
  > Get rid of SIM cards and let’s move everything to purely digital number porting. That doesn’t mean you can’t add or change your provider when you travel, it just means you do it through the user interface instead of removing a little card that runs Java and has access to your baseband. Here a different perceptive on this. SIM: Great! my phone just broke and I need to call my insurance to get it replaced. Oh lucky I saved my older phone! That is so perfect because I can take the SIM from my primary phone and put it in the older phone. viola it works! all of that take within 5 mins. Without SIM: Great! my phone just broke and I need to call my insurance to get it replaced. Oh lucky I still have my older phone... oh wait, they don't have a SIM. So I am stuck without my phone for a week and need to have access to my phone now! Wait let me see if I can open my older phone and see what I can do. turns on yay it still works... no cellular signal? Oh right right, I forgot this phone don't have SIM. Oh ok I guess I have to go through the internal app to get it over to this phone. Why this app kept failing?! C'mon I just need my phone to work because I am expecting calls for potential future job that I might get it! two weeks later with new phone at the door Great... I didn't get the job because the mobile company and insurance been dragging this long as possible. All of this might take two weeks. This is why people favors SIM because it can be taken out and put in other phone within minutes. In other side, people will be stuck without phone for a while because of this stupidity.
mschuster91 5y ago
> It's the revolution that GSM brought: just take your SIM and move it to a different phone. No permission required. In virtually all countries sans a couple of dictatorships and other authoritarian regimes, you have many network providers to choose to buy an eSIM from - the US alone has 109 MVNOs plus the five network providers per https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_mobile_virtual_network_operators https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_mobile_v.... You also have the right to have your phone number ported. When you want to switch your phone and your provider does not allow you to request a new eSIM profile, you can switch both the phone and the provider. There are many things to criticize about modern phone markets - the lack of a right to root your phone and the lack of portability between app stores (not just purchases, but also stuff like game progress!) are the most important ones - but the switch to eSIM is not a problem at all.
arthur_sav 5y ago
Realistically when was the last time you switched your SIM card? I only change it when i change phones.
- tjpnz 5y ago
  Last time I was in SE Asia it wasn't uncommon to see people carrying multiple SIM cards. They were sold cheap and providers were constantly undercutting each other on mobile data. This was almost a decade ago now, but given how Asian variants of phones still have dual SIM slots I'm guessing it's still common.
  - smoovb 5y ago
    Asian eSIMs are common now. For example the Thai travel sim you would get at the BKK airport can be purchased online as an eSIM - so you can skip that local queuing and currency exchange experience. Discloser: I sell eSIMs.
- teeray 5y ago
  Travel. It’s dramatically cheaper to get a local SIM. Some even come with extra benefits, like a pass for use on local mass transit.
- hungryforcodes 5y ago
  I live in SE Asia and I do this all the time. Pretty much several times a year when I move around. So does everyone else I know here.
- yakshaving_jgt 5y ago
  I've changed SIM cards twice in the past week. I travel all the time.
  - maratc 5y ago
    airalo is literally made for you.
LeonidasXIV 5y ago
> It's the revolution that GSM brought: just take your SIM and move it to a different phone. No permission required. This is not really true: 1. SIM-lock is a thing, where providers prevent you from using the phone with another SIM (because they sold you the phone below cost and you're paying it back through your subscription cost) 2. IMEI lock is a thing too, unfortunately. The situation might be different now but in 2011/2012 it was near impossible to use a local SIM in your phone in Japan because phone providers wanted to sell you a phone with a SIM so you can't use your desired phone.
- llampx 5y ago
  Is that the fault of GSM the standard, though, or the anti-consumer carriers?
simonebrunozzi 5y ago
In EU, an eSIM gives you the same "rights" as a physical SIM. The biggest difference is that a physical SIM gives you a slightly higher level of security, at least in theory (then, phone carriers do a lot to screw this up anyway).
- Nextgrid 5y ago
  > eSIM gives you the same "rights" as a physical SIM. What does this mean in practice though? Some carriers already charge to reissue an eSIM. With a physical SIM you can use the same one until you break it. An eSIM is "consumed" when it is provisioned into a phone and you need the carrier's cooperation to get a new one which gives them the option to charge or just be assholes in general.
2ion 5y ago
Where I live (Germany) this is completely unfeasible and untrustworthy for yet another reason: telcos and ISPs (the big telcos here are ISPs as well). There are not many industries where contract agreements are handled by electronic and manual processes so unreliably, erroneous and intransparently as they are at ISPs and telcos. I wouldn't trust them with managing an eSIM for me ever. Given how important a phone number is these days, again, never. When the simplest processes don't work (point in case: wanted to change a prepaid plan online (should be possible) -- it was not possible, buttons simply greyed out for no reason and/or missing, customer rep totally clueless).
headmelted 5y ago
I'm actually more worried about a different problem - I don't care about removing the physical SIM slot but I'm really concerned about halving the amount of numbers someone can have on a single device. Phone numbers are an utterly terrible system. Having to give a single number out to everyone is a stupid beyond belief design that we just tolerate year after year. That SIM-based 2FA exists makes this even worse. Apple has already shone a light on this and basically shown their customers that having a single primary-key-for-contact circulate to everyone is insane - which is why they now have the private relay for e-mail. I have my own reservations about the relay, but we really should move to single-number-per-contact and make that the norm. And yes, I realise this wouldn't be supported by the current phone networks, which is why Apple/Google need to be the people to introduce a vendor-agnostic system as a layer above the current phone networks (akin to a private relay for phones). This is not unprecedented - they've collaborated on a lot of standards before (matter is a recent example that comes to mind).
- Nextgrid 5y ago
  Multiple numbers is already technically possible and does not require eSIM. It does require the carrier to innovate and actually do some engineering though, and there's no market pressure for them to do so.
  - heavenlyblue 5y ago
    Vodafone UK still associates your contract with a phone number. That is, if you wanted to keep the contract and re-associate your phone number with a new contract that is not possible without paying for the remaining months on the contract.
    - Nextgrid 5y ago
      Potentially, but my point is that it's a commercial decision or incompetence (maybe the number is used as the primary key for the contract record?) - technically there is no reason for this.
Someone 5y ago
https://support.apple.com/en-gb/HT212780 https://support.apple.com/en-gb/HT212780: Transfer an eSIM from your previous iPhone To transfer an eSIM to your new iPhone, you can scan the QR code your network provider gave you, use your network provider's iPhone app or install an assigned mobile data plan. When your mobile data plan is activated on your new iPhone, the plan on your previous iPhone will deactivate. There’s also https://support.apple.com/en-gb/HT210655 https://support.apple.com/en-gb/HT210655: Find out how to transfer an eSIM or physical SIM from your previous iPhone to an eSIM on your new iPhone. You can also convert your physical SIM to an eSIM on your iPhone. I think phones still can be SIM-locked, but AFAIK nothing changes there with eSIMs.
- cromka 5y ago
  I just got a new iPhone and transferring a prepaid T-Mobile (US) eSIM from my old iPhone was not supported. T-Mobile say it themselves on their website. > but AFAIK nothing changes there with eSIMs. For all the advantages of eSIM, this is absolutely not true.
lowwave 5y ago
Oh you think the cookie bs right now is bad for your privacy, can't wait for this eSIM shit show to come to light in a few year, it will be absolute privacy nightmare.
saurik 5y ago
You are sadly already going to have problems with this in the near future anyway :/. https://www.xda-developers.com/t-mobile-att-require-volte-phone-calls-shut-down-3g/ https://www.xda-developers.com/t-mobile-att-require-volte-ph... > If you have purchased a recent smartphone directly from AT&T or T-Mobile, then you very likely have nothing to worry about here. However, if you’re using an unlocked device or a device on a custom ROM, then you’ll want to pay attention to what’s coming. Since AT&T whitelists devices for VoLTE compatibility, you won’t be able to BYOD to the carrier starting February 2022 unless the carrier changes its practices or whitelists a lot more devices.
xwolfi 5y ago
Get a Huawei !! It's actually liberating: nothing Google made works on those, so you're forcefully put on a Google diet, it's not Apple, Huawei stuff are only really good if you'in China: you're stuck with F-Droid and the Aurora Store, surviving as you can without ANY integrated ecosystem. It seems silly but I never felt so free, esp after I turned on an all-blocking firewall that only whitelist the apps I want, when I want.
timcederman 5y ago
But it's so easy to move an eSIM to a different phone - if this suddenly stopped you'd get a lot of public backlash, much like if moving a physical SIM stopped working. In the meantime, this works just fine switching eSIMs between devices, so your concern is just hypothetical, or have I missed something?

by jwr 5y ago

jacob019 5y ago

You don't need a google account to use an android phone, there are fantastic open source apps on f-droid, and you can even access the play store without a google account using aurora store. If you have root you can fully degoogle (PITA but gratifying), even without it's a big privacy upgrade to just disable the google apps and log out of google.

csunbird 5y ago

I am sorry, but what? You can just remove the association of the eSIM with the telephone and activate it in another. There is no lock in here.

intricatedetail 5y ago
Yet.
- csunbird 5y ago
  The SIM vendor lock in does exist with the physical SIM card already, with the vendor sold phones.
  - larrysalibra 5y ago
    Carriers can also configure physical SIMs to only work with certain equipment.
  - tjoff 5y ago
    It exist, yes. But isn't used much in practice (where I live at least). I think it is illegal to charge to unlock them so the incentive for them to exist disappeared entirely. Which kind of highlighted that it was a dark-pattern that only served to trick customers. Kind of reinforces the notion that we should be worried...
Nextgrid 5y ago
Sorry, you can't. The e-SIM provisioning process is under the control of the carrier. They give you a QR code (or SM-DP string) which you scan/enter, your phone then contacts the carrier and after some back and forth acquires cryptographic keys which are stored in the eSIM chip. There is no way to extract these cryptographic keys and enter them into another phone. Instead, you have to repeat the whole process and get a new QR code from the carrier. They may charge for this, or just be a pain in general and make it difficult or refuse for whatever reason. I can see them taking advantage of this to prevent travellers using local SIMs for example - sure you can delete your eSIM and get a local one, but getting your own eSIM back will be difficult or outright impossible if you're still travelling (they may require physical ID verification, etc).
- ceejayoz 5y ago
  Could Apple permit you to store multiple provisioned eSIMs on one device, and switch between via UI?
  - rosndo 5y ago
    That’s literally how it works… You can have as many eSIMs as you’d like, I currently have 8 on my phone and can choose which two I want to have active at any time. I’m not sure why nextgrid is constructing this weird technological strawman.
    - Nextgrid 5y ago
      Apologies - I was not aware you can have multiple eSIMs stored. If that's the case it lessens the impact, though switching between phones is still a problem.
      - rosndo 5y ago
        Not any more than with regular physical SIMs, if your carrier wants to be shit they can lock a physical SIM to a specific device too.

hk1337 5y ago

This was my thoughts as well. It seems like we just drove around in a circle and ended up back where we have to contact the provider when we change phones.

jdavis703 5y ago

There’s still IMEI locks. A lot of prepaid carriers in Europe won’t or can’t sell you a SIM card for a US phone (one man claimed it was due to carriers trying to reduce phone theft). Note, my phone was fully paid for, and therefor unlocked.

rchaud 5y ago
With my Samsung Android phone I had to call my carrier's customer support and obtain the unlock code from them. So it wasn't unlocked automatically after it was fully paid for. When I traveled to Europe I just bought a local carrier SIM from a vending machine at the airport.
- Nextgrid 5y ago
  Automatic unlocks is mostly an iPhone thing. iOS manages SIM locks differently (in fact on modern devices the modem itself isn't even locked, instead it's all done at the OS-level; Apple has a mapping of serial number to authorized carrier(s), to which the carriers can request changes remotely without having to provide an unlock code or requiring any user action).
dkjaudyeqooe 5y ago
I've never encountered this, which country are you talking about?

mrtksn 5y ago

I share your concerns but at the same time I think, why would we even need a SIM? Isn't it simply a device for accessing account on someones system? We don't have SIMs for ADSL or Fiber internet? We don't have SIMs for Reddit ot Twitter? Why would we have SIMs accessing GSM networks? There's no fundamental reason why we simply don't sign in into these networks like signing in to HN. Surely, it adds a layer of anonymity and freedom where you simply use the system by paying it however there's an ongoing trend all over the world of de-anonymisation. In many places they are asking for ID and other documents in order to provide you with a SIM. Physical SIM now means, it's yet another obsolete tech that costs money and takes space inside the devices only to sustain anonymity that is no longer desired. SIM is just another causality on the way towards the tightly controlled world. IMHO, it needs to happen at some point but we also need to rethink our rights in a world that is run by these huge networks. Wouldn't be nice if our phones could have simply scanned for the networks, receive the offers from the available networks, pay and start using it?

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
junon 5y ago
Because SIMs require the physical card. You cannot forge a SIM without the SIM itself. There's a physical second factor. Usernames and passwords get leaked all the time, and since Reddit et al are meant to be accessed by multiple devices, device-locking them would be antithetical and anti-consumer. A phone service is implicitly device-locked (well, doesn't have to be, but it doesn't make sense to allow multiple devices per number anyway). Just using device credentials could allow anyone to log in with that information and use your subscription or pose as you. As for ADSL or other forms of internet, there is already a second factor - ISPs generally know from which vicinity you are connecting from, and when you log in with your account information in your modem, they can match what's on your account to your physical "drop" and assert that it is at least within the same neighborhood - again, creating a physical second factor. This is also why your internet service generally needs to be "moved" whenever you change your residence. A SIM card allows the freedom as the GP mentioned, without requiring someone from the centralized authority to process the request somehow. There is a huge difference if you think about it for a bit.

PragmaticPulp 5y ago

> Arguably we've become slaves to ecosystems of either Apple or Google at this point I’m far more worried about the SIM cards than Apple or Google. Did you know that SIM cards run Java? Or that they can send text messages from your phone directly to the baseband without going through the phone itself? Your SIM is probably sending data to your carrier without you knowing. ( https://scribe.rip/telecom-expert/what-is-at-t-doing-at-1111340002-c418876c212c https://scribe.rip/telecom-expert/what-is-at-t-doing-at-1111... ) Get rid of SIM cards and let’s move everything to purely digital number porting. That doesn’t mean you can’t add or change your provider when you travel, it just means you do it through the user interface instead of removing a little card that runs Java and has access to your baseband.

Nextgrid 5y ago
> move everything to purely digital number porting There's a common misconception that SIM == number. That's not the case. The SIM is simply the identity of your device to a carrier. > a little card that runs Java I believe (it's now been a few years since I've skimmed the spec) that the eSIM chip can also run Java and download applets.
jacob019 5y ago
Sure, but the sim doesn't have access to the main CPU, main memory, storage, or sensors (without help from an app which can just as easily leak data without help from the sim) I fail to see how it compromises security any more than an eSIM.
gime_tree_fiddy 5y ago
The full portability won't be the same across multiple regions, especially internationally. Also, there is a good chance it gets tied to the device/contract you are on, similar to how the phone contracts in the US were a few years ago.
Isthatablackgsd 5y ago
> Get rid of SIM cards and let’s move everything to purely digital number porting. That doesn’t mean you can’t add or change your provider when you travel, it just means you do it through the user interface instead of removing a little card that runs Java and has access to your baseband. Here a different perceptive on this. SIM: Great! my phone just broke and I need to call my insurance to get it replaced. Oh lucky I saved my older phone! That is so perfect because I can take the SIM from my primary phone and put it in the older phone. viola it works! all of that take within 5 mins. Without SIM: Great! my phone just broke and I need to call my insurance to get it replaced. Oh lucky I still have my older phone... oh wait, they don't have a SIM. So I am stuck without my phone for a week and need to have access to my phone now! Wait let me see if I can open my older phone and see what I can do. turns on yay it still works... no cellular signal? Oh right right, I forgot this phone don't have SIM. Oh ok I guess I have to go through the internal app to get it over to this phone. Why this app kept failing?! C'mon I just need my phone to work because I am expecting calls for potential future job that I might get it! two weeks later with new phone at the door Great... I didn't get the job because the mobile company and insurance been dragging this long as possible. All of this might take two weeks. This is why people favors SIM because it can be taken out and put in other phone within minutes. In other side, people will be stuck without phone for a while because of this stupidity.

mschuster91 5y ago

> It's the revolution that GSM brought: just take your SIM and move it to a different phone. No permission required. In virtually all countries sans a couple of dictatorships and other authoritarian regimes, you have many network providers to choose to buy an eSIM from - the US alone has 109 MVNOs plus the five network providers per https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_mobile_virtual_network_operators https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_mobile_v.... You also have the right to have your phone number ported. When you want to switch your phone and your provider does not allow you to request a new eSIM profile, you can switch both the phone and the provider. There are many things to criticize about modern phone markets - the lack of a right to root your phone and the lack of portability between app stores (not just purchases, but also stuff like game progress!) are the most important ones - but the switch to eSIM is not a problem at all.

arthur_sav 5y ago

Realistically when was the last time you switched your SIM card? I only change it when i change phones.

tjpnz 5y ago
Last time I was in SE Asia it wasn't uncommon to see people carrying multiple SIM cards. They were sold cheap and providers were constantly undercutting each other on mobile data. This was almost a decade ago now, but given how Asian variants of phones still have dual SIM slots I'm guessing it's still common.
- smoovb 5y ago
  Asian eSIMs are common now. For example the Thai travel sim you would get at the BKK airport can be purchased online as an eSIM - so you can skip that local queuing and currency exchange experience. Discloser: I sell eSIMs.
teeray 5y ago
Travel. It’s dramatically cheaper to get a local SIM. Some even come with extra benefits, like a pass for use on local mass transit.
hungryforcodes 5y ago
I live in SE Asia and I do this all the time. Pretty much several times a year when I move around. So does everyone else I know here.
yakshaving_jgt 5y ago
I've changed SIM cards twice in the past week. I travel all the time.
- maratc 5y ago
  airalo is literally made for you.

LeonidasXIV 5y ago

> It's the revolution that GSM brought: just take your SIM and move it to a different phone. No permission required. This is not really true: 1. SIM-lock is a thing, where providers prevent you from using the phone with another SIM (because they sold you the phone below cost and you're paying it back through your subscription cost) 2. IMEI lock is a thing too, unfortunately. The situation might be different now but in 2011/2012 it was near impossible to use a local SIM in your phone in Japan because phone providers wanted to sell you a phone with a SIM so you can't use your desired phone.

llampx 5y ago
Is that the fault of GSM the standard, though, or the anti-consumer carriers?

simonebrunozzi 5y ago

In EU, an eSIM gives you the same "rights" as a physical SIM. The biggest difference is that a physical SIM gives you a slightly higher level of security, at least in theory (then, phone carriers do a lot to screw this up anyway).

Nextgrid 5y ago
> eSIM gives you the same "rights" as a physical SIM. What does this mean in practice though? Some carriers already charge to reissue an eSIM. With a physical SIM you can use the same one until you break it. An eSIM is "consumed" when it is provisioned into a phone and you need the carrier's cooperation to get a new one which gives them the option to charge or just be assholes in general.

2ion 5y ago

Where I live (Germany) this is completely unfeasible and untrustworthy for yet another reason: telcos and ISPs (the big telcos here are ISPs as well). There are not many industries where contract agreements are handled by electronic and manual processes so unreliably, erroneous and intransparently as they are at ISPs and telcos. I wouldn't trust them with managing an eSIM for me ever. Given how important a phone number is these days, again, never. When the simplest processes don't work (point in case: wanted to change a prepaid plan online (should be possible) -- it was not possible, buttons simply greyed out for no reason and/or missing, customer rep totally clueless).

headmelted 5y ago

I'm actually more worried about a different problem - I don't care about removing the physical SIM slot but I'm really concerned about halving the amount of numbers someone can have on a single device. Phone numbers are an utterly terrible system. Having to give a single number out to everyone is a stupid beyond belief design that we just tolerate year after year. That SIM-based 2FA exists makes this even worse. Apple has already shone a light on this and basically shown their customers that having a single primary-key-for-contact circulate to everyone is insane - which is why they now have the private relay for e-mail. I have my own reservations about the relay, but we really should move to single-number-per-contact and make that the norm. And yes, I realise this wouldn't be supported by the current phone networks, which is why Apple/Google need to be the people to introduce a vendor-agnostic system as a layer above the current phone networks (akin to a private relay for phones). This is not unprecedented - they've collaborated on a lot of standards before (matter is a recent example that comes to mind).

Nextgrid 5y ago
Multiple numbers is already technically possible and does not require eSIM. It does require the carrier to innovate and actually do some engineering though, and there's no market pressure for them to do so.
- heavenlyblue 5y ago
  Vodafone UK still associates your contract with a phone number. That is, if you wanted to keep the contract and re-associate your phone number with a new contract that is not possible without paying for the remaining months on the contract.
  - Nextgrid 5y ago
    Potentially, but my point is that it's a commercial decision or incompetence (maybe the number is used as the primary key for the contract record?) - technically there is no reason for this.

Someone 5y ago

https://support.apple.com/en-gb/HT212780 https://support.apple.com/en-gb/HT212780: Transfer an eSIM from your previous iPhone To transfer an eSIM to your new iPhone, you can scan the QR code your network provider gave you, use your network provider's iPhone app or install an assigned mobile data plan. When your mobile data plan is activated on your new iPhone, the plan on your previous iPhone will deactivate. There’s also https://support.apple.com/en-gb/HT210655 https://support.apple.com/en-gb/HT210655: Find out how to transfer an eSIM or physical SIM from your previous iPhone to an eSIM on your new iPhone. You can also convert your physical SIM to an eSIM on your iPhone. I think phones still can be SIM-locked, but AFAIK nothing changes there with eSIMs.

cromka 5y ago
I just got a new iPhone and transferring a prepaid T-Mobile (US) eSIM from my old iPhone was not supported. T-Mobile say it themselves on their website. > but AFAIK nothing changes there with eSIMs. For all the advantages of eSIM, this is absolutely not true.

lowwave 5y ago

Oh you think the cookie bs right now is bad for your privacy, can't wait for this eSIM shit show to come to light in a few year, it will be absolute privacy nightmare.

saurik 5y ago

You are sadly already going to have problems with this in the near future anyway :/. https://www.xda-developers.com/t-mobile-att-require-volte-phone-calls-shut-down-3g/ https://www.xda-developers.com/t-mobile-att-require-volte-ph... > If you have purchased a recent smartphone directly from AT&T or T-Mobile, then you very likely have nothing to worry about here. However, if you’re using an unlocked device or a device on a custom ROM, then you’ll want to pay attention to what’s coming. Since AT&T whitelists devices for VoLTE compatibility, you won’t be able to BYOD to the carrier starting February 2022 unless the carrier changes its practices or whitelists a lot more devices.

xwolfi 5y ago

Get a Huawei !! It's actually liberating: nothing Google made works on those, so you're forcefully put on a Google diet, it's not Apple, Huawei stuff are only really good if you'in China: you're stuck with F-Droid and the Aurora Store, surviving as you can without ANY integrated ecosystem. It seems silly but I never felt so free, esp after I turned on an all-blocking firewall that only whitelist the apps I want, when I want.

timcederman 5y ago

But it's so easy to move an eSIM to a different phone - if this suddenly stopped you'd get a lot of public backlash, much like if moving a physical SIM stopped working. In the meantime, this works just fine switching eSIMs between devices, so your concern is just hypothetical, or have I missed something?