8 ms·

> Are those days just over? Depending on your job function and industry. For tech, yes, those days are over for at least for another 5 to 10 years, is my guess

by bfung 5y ago

> Are those days just over? Depending on your job function and industry. For tech, yes, those days are over for at least for another 5 to 10 years, is my guess. COVID has generally proven to both employers and employees that productivity doesn't drop that much. It will also weed out bad people managers who need to "see" people physically who need to "get a feel" as a management metric. The only major factor that would swing the pendulum back into offices, is when future diseases get under control much more quickly - whether that's corona virus or the next version of it, H1N1, avian flu, MERS, covid-19, etc. When the population is smart enough to win those battles quickly, and that there's a company where in-person teams outperform remote teams by a large margin, that's when in-person will be back and the pendulum swing again.

FpUser 5y ago
>"Depending on your job function and industry. For tech, yes, those days are over for at least for another 5 to 10 years" I think for a good percentage the option might be forever except some once in a while gathering in some local bar / event place / rent a temp workspace / whatever else can substitute
jspash 5y ago
"COVID has generally proven to both employers and employees that productivity doesn't drop that much" Is that a personal observation of yours, or has this now become "fact"? The reason I ask is that I would like to find studies - not just surveys or anecdotal evidence - that attempt to quantify the quality and productivity of WFH since the recently pandemic changes. At work, we've had countless discussions about this and the jury is still out. The introverts claim to be no less than twice as productive, the extroverts claim they are lying and they really miss leaving work early on Fridays to go to the pub - somehow that makes them better employees. Management hate not being able to peer over your shoulder (although they have recently installed "security" software on everyone's laptops for "security purposes"). But I have nothing to point to other than my own experience managing a remote team of devs. I've yet to come to a solid conclusion as to how it works for others. I only know that my productivity and depth of work has never been greater. So if there are any resources you could point me to I'd be grateful.
- FpUser 5y ago
  >"really miss leaving work early on Fridays to go to the pub" I used to have this when I was employed (about 20 years ago). Somehow my personal take was that it gets tiring pretty fast. I've had enough friends outside of employment and wit the very rare exception would very much prefer to socialize with them rather than coworkers. I then went on my own and have never looked back. The fact that I am doing quite ok means that I am productive. I design and implement new software products for my own company or for clients.
  - lexapro 5y ago
    A lot of people don't have enough friends outside of employment.
    - WJW 5y ago
      Surely OP, who is "very extraverted" in their own words, would not lack friends outside of employment. Even if they did, they could always go out and make new ones.
      - jdavis703 5y ago
        People have become much more insular since the pandemic. I live in the night life district. Nearly two years in, the neighborhood is still clearly far less lively than in 2019, despite the fact that at least the businesses that didn’t go bankrupt have all reopened at 100% capacity, and our neighborhood has a 95%+ vaccination rate (meaning vax mandates aren’t keeping people in, and vaxxed folks should feel safe going out).
        sokoloff 5y ago
        > vaxxed folks should feel safe going out This might be over-estimating the numeracy and relative risk-judgment of people.
    - dev_tty01 5y ago
vladvasiliu 5y ago
I'd say it also depends a lot on location and its prevalent culture. Over here in France, most French companies (as opposed to US companies operating here) have to be dragged kicking and screaming into WfH arrangements. Ever since the pandemic started picking back up steam this autumn, the government was "encouraging" companies to allow people to work from home, but there were no firm directives. Most companies figured having their employees pile up in the metro (yay covid!) and congest the highways (yay pollution!) wasn't that big of an issue. They also asked companies to try to stagger arrival / departure times to reduce the number of people in the metro. Didn't work any better. In my opinion, if OP is living in France (or willing to relocate here), it should be extremely easy to find in-office jobs.
- xwolfi 5y ago
  Yeah but then you have to work with French people, which is a tradeoff I wouldnt do anymore, as a French myself :p
  - cosmodisk 5y ago
    I was finding it quite ok to work with French,some were even fanatic about their work. What I liked most about them was that none of them drank cool-aid and could easily spot corporate BS.
    - vladvasiliu 5y ago
      > What I liked most about them was that none of them drank cool-aid and could easily spot corporate BS. This may be true, but the issue I usually have is that they seem to not do anything about it. Not "rocking the boat" and "yessir" are quite common approaches here, to the point that a lot of people are under very high amounts of stress. Disclaimer: I've never worked outside of France, so I don't know how people here actually compare to other places.
  - ever1 5y ago
    Why is that ?
- 5y ago
huntertwo 5y ago
> When the population is smart enough to win those battles quickly Don’t hold your breath.
PragmaticPulp 5y ago
> COVID has generally proven to both employers and employees that productivity doesn't drop that much. I know this is the popular sentiment pushed by remote work fans, but in offline contexts I hear the polar opposite: Productivity struggles are ubiquitous during COVID WFH. Even the most pro-remote people are quick to admit that COVID WFH is not like normal WFH. Some places even had school closures which meant parents were juggling kids schooling and their jobs. Maybe you worked in a company that didn’t have a lot of employees with these problems, but it has been a significant challenge for many people and companies in the past year and a half. I managed remote teams long before COVID and even I wouldn’t ever suggest that remote has no effect on productivity. Remote is hard and I’d even say that most people aren’t cut out for it, at least not without significant mentoring and additional management attention.
- bencollier49 5y ago
  I completely agree with this. Certain phases of work and types of teams do alright remotely - typically a team with a lot of senior engineers in mid-project flow with few external dependencies. But a team with a significant number of juniors, faced with multiple blockers or external dependencies will underperform badly compared to in-person working. Whole days will go missing because of a lack of effective communication - the simple ability to lean over and check or ask how someone is doing. Not to mention the inability of learners to just pick up information through incidental conversation and overhearing other people talking.
  - PragmaticPulp 5y ago
    > Whole days will go missing because of a lack of effective communication A friend in the construction industry has been dealing with this since COVID WFH started. He works with a lot of different architects, designers, suppliers, and so on that have to coordinate work. He also has to track the costs of mistakes and extra time lost due to drawing issues, errors, missed change orders and so on. As soon as COVID WFH started, the rate of errors spiked upward. It didn’t decline until companies brought their employees back into the office. He now goes out of his way to work with companies that have gone back to in-office work because it’s the simplest and most predictable way to reduce the amount of money he loses to simple errors.
rsynnott 5y ago
> For tech, yes, those days are over for at least for another 5 to 10 years, is my guess. I'm kind of wondering are half of these comments from an alternate universe. Most tech companies either are planning to reopen their offices or have already reopened their offices. There are a few companies going remote-only, which I suppose is nice if you like that sort of thing (I would quit immediately) but most companies do plan to go back to the office, albeit likely with more flexibility and some permanent-remote employees.

by bfung 5y ago

FpUser 5y ago

>"Depending on your job function and industry. For tech, yes, those days are over for at least for another 5 to 10 years" I think for a good percentage the option might be forever except some once in a while gathering in some local bar / event place / rent a temp workspace / whatever else can substitute

jspash 5y ago

"COVID has generally proven to both employers and employees that productivity doesn't drop that much" Is that a personal observation of yours, or has this now become "fact"? The reason I ask is that I would like to find studies - not just surveys or anecdotal evidence - that attempt to quantify the quality and productivity of WFH since the recently pandemic changes. At work, we've had countless discussions about this and the jury is still out. The introverts claim to be no less than twice as productive, the extroverts claim they are lying and they really miss leaving work early on Fridays to go to the pub - somehow that makes them better employees. Management hate not being able to peer over your shoulder (although they have recently installed "security" software on everyone's laptops for "security purposes"). But I have nothing to point to other than my own experience managing a remote team of devs. I've yet to come to a solid conclusion as to how it works for others. I only know that my productivity and depth of work has never been greater. So if there are any resources you could point me to I'd be grateful.

FpUser 5y ago
>"really miss leaving work early on Fridays to go to the pub" I used to have this when I was employed (about 20 years ago). Somehow my personal take was that it gets tiring pretty fast. I've had enough friends outside of employment and wit the very rare exception would very much prefer to socialize with them rather than coworkers. I then went on my own and have never looked back. The fact that I am doing quite ok means that I am productive. I design and implement new software products for my own company or for clients.
- lexapro 5y ago
  A lot of people don't have enough friends outside of employment.
  - WJW 5y ago
    Surely OP, who is "very extraverted" in their own words, would not lack friends outside of employment. Even if they did, they could always go out and make new ones.
    - jdavis703 5y ago
      People have become much more insular since the pandemic. I live in the night life district. Nearly two years in, the neighborhood is still clearly far less lively than in 2019, despite the fact that at least the businesses that didn’t go bankrupt have all reopened at 100% capacity, and our neighborhood has a 95%+ vaccination rate (meaning vax mandates aren’t keeping people in, and vaxxed folks should feel safe going out).
      - sokoloff 5y ago
        > vaxxed folks should feel safe going out This might be over-estimating the numeracy and relative risk-judgment of people.
  - dev_tty01 5y ago

vladvasiliu 5y ago

I'd say it also depends a lot on location and its prevalent culture. Over here in France, most French companies (as opposed to US companies operating here) have to be dragged kicking and screaming into WfH arrangements. Ever since the pandemic started picking back up steam this autumn, the government was "encouraging" companies to allow people to work from home, but there were no firm directives. Most companies figured having their employees pile up in the metro (yay covid!) and congest the highways (yay pollution!) wasn't that big of an issue. They also asked companies to try to stagger arrival / departure times to reduce the number of people in the metro. Didn't work any better. In my opinion, if OP is living in France (or willing to relocate here), it should be extremely easy to find in-office jobs.

xwolfi 5y ago
Yeah but then you have to work with French people, which is a tradeoff I wouldnt do anymore, as a French myself :p
- cosmodisk 5y ago
  I was finding it quite ok to work with French,some were even fanatic about their work. What I liked most about them was that none of them drank cool-aid and could easily spot corporate BS.
  - vladvasiliu 5y ago
    > What I liked most about them was that none of them drank cool-aid and could easily spot corporate BS. This may be true, but the issue I usually have is that they seem to not do anything about it. Not "rocking the boat" and "yessir" are quite common approaches here, to the point that a lot of people are under very high amounts of stress. Disclaimer: I've never worked outside of France, so I don't know how people here actually compare to other places.
- ever1 5y ago
  Why is that ?
5y ago

huntertwo 5y ago

> When the population is smart enough to win those battles quickly Don’t hold your breath.

PragmaticPulp 5y ago

> COVID has generally proven to both employers and employees that productivity doesn't drop that much. I know this is the popular sentiment pushed by remote work fans, but in offline contexts I hear the polar opposite: Productivity struggles are ubiquitous during COVID WFH. Even the most pro-remote people are quick to admit that COVID WFH is not like normal WFH. Some places even had school closures which meant parents were juggling kids schooling and their jobs. Maybe you worked in a company that didn’t have a lot of employees with these problems, but it has been a significant challenge for many people and companies in the past year and a half. I managed remote teams long before COVID and even I wouldn’t ever suggest that remote has no effect on productivity. Remote is hard and I’d even say that most people aren’t cut out for it, at least not without significant mentoring and additional management attention.

bencollier49 5y ago
I completely agree with this. Certain phases of work and types of teams do alright remotely - typically a team with a lot of senior engineers in mid-project flow with few external dependencies. But a team with a significant number of juniors, faced with multiple blockers or external dependencies will underperform badly compared to in-person working. Whole days will go missing because of a lack of effective communication - the simple ability to lean over and check or ask how someone is doing. Not to mention the inability of learners to just pick up information through incidental conversation and overhearing other people talking.
- PragmaticPulp 5y ago
  > Whole days will go missing because of a lack of effective communication A friend in the construction industry has been dealing with this since COVID WFH started. He works with a lot of different architects, designers, suppliers, and so on that have to coordinate work. He also has to track the costs of mistakes and extra time lost due to drawing issues, errors, missed change orders and so on. As soon as COVID WFH started, the rate of errors spiked upward. It didn’t decline until companies brought their employees back into the office. He now goes out of his way to work with companies that have gone back to in-office work because it’s the simplest and most predictable way to reduce the amount of money he loses to simple errors.

rsynnott 5y ago

> For tech, yes, those days are over for at least for another 5 to 10 years, is my guess. I'm kind of wondering are half of these comments from an alternate universe. Most tech companies either are planning to reopen their offices or have already reopened their offices. There are a few companies going remote-only, which I suppose is nice if you like that sort of thing (I would quit immediately) but most companies do plan to go back to the office, albeit likely with more flexibility and some permanent-remote employees.