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> Recruiters love phone calls and don’t like doing things over email or text. This means that it is very easy to get overwhelmed by the number of recruiters try

• afarrell 5y ago
  The goal isn't to maximize efficiency. It is to increase human connection. Why? 1. They want you to feel a sense of trust to increase the probability of taking additional steps in the process. 2. They are mostly extroverts who want to hear someone talk about their career aspirations -- for the same emotional reasons that coaches want to see people learn.
  • hunglee2 5y ago
    great analysis. though for 1) in a way, it IS about maximising efficiency. The recruiter wants to place candidates, and those with whom s/he has a strong human connection are more likely to convert into placements. Hence, efficiency is the ultimate driver for this behaviour
• lordnacho 5y ago
  Phone calls are synchronous. You have each others attention, questions can be answered quickly. Also the big one is that hard to answer questions will die in an async setting. What's your current salary, why did you leave your last job so soon, anything that creates a desire to procrastinate with an answer.
  • tdeck 5y ago
    Questions like these may be appropriate¹ to ask in a scheduled interview. It's completely not respectful to pepper a person's week with multiple unscheduled "quick chats" or callbacks. If they want to schedule something that's what calendly is for. ¹The salary question is illegal in some places and kinda shady in the others.
• decafninja 5y ago
  The worst are the ones that will somehow dig up your company desk phone # and call you in the middle of the day at work. Is this something unique to the personalities of people that thrive at sales jobs? I've encountered this sort of behavior with real estate agents, car salesmen*, and of course, third party headhunter/recruiters. They love phone calls, will try to get you on the phone no matter what, and actively try to avoid e-mails/text/etc. * although, I recently purchased a car a few weeks ago, and nearly all my communication with the salesman was done via e-mail and text. Very pleasant experience, but I wonder if this is the new norm, or if he was a unique exception.
  • afarrell 5y ago
    Firstly: http://www.paulgraham.com/makersschedule.html http://www.paulgraham.com/makersschedule.html Secondly: Yes, people who like talking with people tend to go into careers that primarily involve talking to people.
    • DrAwdeOccarim 5y ago
      I have never heard of this maker vs manager schedule thing before. It really resonates with me. I just finished a rotation as a primary contributor on leave from my manager role and was having a real hard time telling people I had to cancel meetings from my normal job bc I couldn’t switch mental gears like that. This link is so very true it’s scary…I had been wondering if anyone was good at doing both, and if I could exercise my brain muscles to be able to switch between the two during the day. Anyone have any luck at that? I feels really really hard.
      • afarrell 5y ago
        Hard for me and hard for the author of the blog post.
      • jll29 5y ago
        It's hard for most if not all folks. What you can do is put cons calls in the morning, and do your IC work in the afternoon or the other way round. The mental switch is one part of the issue, and time fragmentation is the other.
• tomrod 5y ago
  Phone calls are done to prevent paper trails. I just send a list of questions to be answered when such requirements are not meaningful.
• alxmdev 5y ago
  I always thought the preference for phone calls over e-mails is so there's no written account of anything that might be convenient to backtrack on in the future.
  • deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  • mavelikara 5y ago
    No. Phone calls are more personal than emails. Some people like that. For everyone complaining here about getting phone calls, there is another half who'd jibe "Damn, another templatized email. Why should I be interested if you haven't put any time of yours into communicating with me??" TL;DR: programers are hard to please. No good deed goes unpunished.
    • xboxnolifes 5y ago
      > For everyone complaining here about getting phone calls, there is another half who'd jibe "Damn, another templatized email. This is a false dichotomy. A non-templated phone call can be replaced with a non-templated email. Incredibly easy to please. Paper trails are very professional.
    • csydas 5y ago
      I don't think it's that simple really; it seems like people (not just programmers) are hard to please because the circumstances and available time differ from day to day, and different conversations are better sometimes in email and others on a call. I'm very protective of my time in general because I tend to be involved in many things: sometimes technical, bureaucratic, sometimes internal-political, and so many more. Each category requires a different part of my attention/focus which I'm not always readily able to shift to, or more importantly, would rather not shift to as I'm more preoccupied with a different category. Most importantly, the majority of the time all these calls have one common denominator; the requestor wants/needs something from me, not the other way around. Wanting/needing my help or input isn't something wrong in and of itself, but if it's not reciprocal and especially if it's not something I'm obligated to do, I absolutely tend to be pretty defensive of my time. It's perfectly common in modern business to exploit people's tendency towards good faith interpretations and our aversion to conflict, and disengaging from situations/requests that aren't one's responsibility is something many people have difficulty with. (Just think in your work place if you know someone who just has a hard time saying "no" and over-commits themselves constantly) And it's a skill to identify these situations and gracefully disengage depending on the person who is creating the situation in the first place. When there are complaints about a template email, the opposite of that isn't a phone call, it's taking the time to state a point clearly and directly and showing that it has specific relevance to you and justifying your time/attention. A conversation can be just as "template" as any email, even more so sometimes when you are listening to someone who speaks only in aphorisms but cannot go deeper than that. ("You have a chance to get in on the ground floor of something truly revolutionary!", "It's a high-paced high-reward environment that a 10x-er like you can thrive in, and the growth opportunities are limitless!", or even we can think of the hey-day of descriptions along the lines of "the Uber of _____") If the conversation lacks substance or purpose to someone specific and relies on general advertisement like attention grabs to keep you going, it doesn't matter what the medium is, the conversation simply offers next to no value. A phone call doesn't mean personal by any means, it just means a slightly higher amount of attention and a situation that is sometimes difficult for people to exit. It has it's time and place, but far too many people exploit the good nature of others to peddle some agenda that serves only themselves. Absolutely, we should be more protective of our time/attention, and we should be more respectful of other people's time/attention
• __turbobrew__ 5y ago
  I have had many similar experiences. A recruiter contacts me via email regarding an open position, I ask for details in the email reply. They send me an email back saying we should schedule a call so they can answer my questions. I’m not even asking hard questions just “what is the salary range”, “when are you looking to fill the position”, “how many are on the team”, etc. I usually don’t waste my time with recruiters who don’t answer the most basic questions via email.
  • datavirtue 5y ago
    Perhaps it's a filter to make sure they don't move further with a candidate who is not serious? And like most things...there are likely few good confluent reasons for it despite none of the reasons influencing eachother. Some that others have mentioned so far.
    • AnimalMuppet 5y ago
      > Perhaps it's a filter to make sure they don't move further with a candidate who is not serious? That could be. If the candidate isn't willing to take the time for a phone call, can the recruiter be confident they willing to take the time for an interview?
      • fma 5y ago
        On the other hand, if a recruiter isn't willing to 'work with me' and spend a few minutes on replying an email, are they 'work with me' in the future? Or push their way around for what's best for them? I enjoy my job and salary...I don't have anything to lose by filtering out non-serious recruiters.
        • AnimalMuppet 5y ago
          Also a fair point.
    • executesorder66 5y ago
      > Perhaps it's a filter to make sure they don't move further with a candidate who is not serious? Why is asking basic questions over email considered "not serious", but doing the exact same thing over the phone is considered "serious". The recruiter is just an asshole for wasting everyone's time by not just answering the basic questions in their email reply. They are already replying to the email, so they might as well answer the questions.
• nicholasjarnold 5y ago
  I have a feeling it's a sales tactic which seeks to purposely use up a candidate's time with the hope that the candidate falls victim to the sunk cost fallacy. Desired inner monologue I think they hope to generate in us: "I've already spent 3 calls and a couple of hours talking to <recruiter>, so I might as well continue on with the process lest I end up wasting all that time." disclosure: I'm a dev and not a recruiter, so take this with a grain of salt.
  • whiplash451 5y ago
    I would tend to agree. My intuition is also that (1) some headhunters might use time-spent-on-the-phone as a metric linked to bonuses (think: click as a proxy for sales in online advertising) and (2) the phone lets headhunter gather intel that you end up leaking in the discussion and that you would not leak via email. Some have great tactics to make you speak “now that you’re on the call”.
    • dhosek 5y ago
      I think the time on the phone metric is a big thing, especially when the recruiters were working in office. I've been in the offices of recruiters and it's very much a bullpen-type situation and there's a manager on the side somewhere who's watching and will view those not on the phone as not working.
      • dhosek 5y ago
        Thinking about my most recent job search (in 2021), I think that this is very much the case—I had a lot more email and text-based interactions this time around than anytime before.
    • b9a2cab5 5y ago
      The latter is a negotiation tactic given in "Never Split the Difference". Essentially communicating over text/email allows you to carefully think about your words, whereas over a call or video call you can read tone of voice, body language, etc. and throw people off balance and reveal info.
• tarunupaday 5y ago
  I like the idea of going through independent headhunters. Does anybody know how to find good headhunters, though?
  • decafninja 5y ago
    I generally do not like independent headhunters. My experience with most of them has been mixed. However a few have been outstanding. The common denominator I've seen with the best third party recruiters is that they tend to work for smaller boutique shops (or even completely on their own) and cultivate good relationships with hiring managers.
• indymike 5y ago
  > This has been my experience as well, and while I understand the desire for introductory "sales mode" type calls, I think it's progressed past that point to something nearly pathological. I don't pay attention to unsolicited phone calls, so recruiters might as well be yelling at an empty chair when they call. My email is spam filtered, automatically sorted and tagged, so unsolicited recruiting goes directly to the trash. I've had a few really positive interactions that started via SMS and led to an accepted call from a recruiter.
• gorgoiler 5y ago
  Every call you take is an opportunity for you to bolster your final asking price. Use calls to your advantage. The recruiter might not be party to the final negotiation, but they’ll be a net positive at hiring meetings if you’ve got them in your corner. Recruiters will want to talk on the phone at every stage, not necessarily for long periods of time, but certainly frequently. They are constantly gauging how you feel as a candidate, and getting the measure of how to close you once you get an offer. Dance along to their tune and it will be one more reason you get top market price for your labor.
  • sokoloff 5y ago
    My experience (mostly on the hiring side) is that an in-house recruiter is indeed trying to close you if they think you'll be a good fit (they're measured/bonused on metrics around their job, after all) and third-party recruiters are just interested in closing the deal and you staying 90 days. As a hiring manager, I can't recall ever being influenced by a third-party recruiter as they "love" all candidates at a rate equal to 30% of the candidates' first year comp.
  • softwarebeware 5y ago
    Meh
• lmilcin 5y ago
  Basic reason for preferring calls over email is that it is more difficult to say no when on call than when responding to an email. As to scheduling meetings I just give them my Calendly link. They are loving it.
• heavenlyblue 5y ago
  The use calls because they can lie on the call without the fear of being called up on it, while in email you are will have a record of the conversation.
• dd82 5y ago
  I'm deaf and wear hearing aids, so talking on phones or any situation where I can't effectively lip read is an exercise in frustration. I can hear the other side, but the words just aren't coming through in my brain. So, a couple sentences describing this is a very easy way for me to filter out recruiters like this, and jobs as well. Especially with working remotely.
  • dhosek 5y ago
    I made a big point of saying this over and over during a previous job search and people still ignored what I said and called. They'd even acknowledge that I asked them not to call at the beginning of the call.
    • dd82 5y ago
      That makes it easy to filter them out, though.
• stirfish 5y ago
  How was your skiing trip? And did you schedule the meeting?
• riffic 5y ago
  something I've seen referenced elsewhere was to set up a mailing list for incoming recruitment requests: https://twitter.com/JillWohlner/status/1418568163898368003 https://twitter.com/JillWohlner/status/1418568163898368003 "I got my first 'im not looking right now, but please sign up to my mailing list to be notified when I am looking' from a candidate. The market is peak something!"
• discordance 5y ago
  Why care so much about a crappy recruitment experience? - it’s just the first hop/hoop. Would you not go to a party because your shower’s hot water temperature fluctuated and put you in a bad mood?
• lkrubner 5y ago
  I think this is because the recruiting agencies deliberately hire extroverts. As an example, in New York City, Talener. My friends tell me that the company mostly hires young people who engaged in a large number of social activities at college. Sororities, fraternities, soup kitchens, art clubs, music clubs, anything social. It’s a company of extreme extroverts.
• xvilka 5y ago
  It's probably HR that can be completely automated by the AI and scripts, also I bet it would be much more efficient and even cost- efficient.
• rejor121 5y ago
  Having read some of the comments, I wonder about the challenges with making myself a recruiter that doesn’t do the stupid things such as cold calling and wasting peoples time. I don’t like wasting time, but I also feel like the biggest hurdle would be just finding people to trust me to help them find a job.
• tippytippytango 5y ago
  It's more about objection handling and not letting prospects fall out of their funnel. In email, if someone has an objection and they are an avoidant type (most people), they will ignore the email thread for a long time and potentially forget about the thread completely. This can drag out communications for a weeks as the sales person is constantly having to revive the thread after it is apparent the prospect is avoiding. On a phone call, they can sense the apprehension, elicit the objection and handle it in minutes rather than days of silence. For this reason phone calls feel more efficient and safe to them.
  • zenlikethat 5y ago
    This is 100% accurate
• zenlikethat 5y ago
  Well that just sounds like that particular recruiter had some operational issues. Although she got you on the phone and got you to agree to a meeting so she was doing something right. At any rate, she should have just used a Calendly link or something. But there are many reasons why introductory phone calls (screens) are very necessary.
  • colechristensen 5y ago
    In the past I have had this problem often, round after round of handshakes back and forth trying to get availability to schedule brief phone calls despite me saying repeatedly “just call me”. My favorite was when I was contacted by the CEO of a small company asking if I was interested, foisted off on a recruiter who didn’t have time to schedule a call for a week and a half, and then told the position was no longer open.
    • zenlikethat 5y ago
      Annoying, but an important signal in a job search. If they don't have it together when they should be putting their best foot forward, they're going to be a complete disaster on the other side.
      • jll29 5y ago
        Yes, company recruiters are part of the external face of the company. If they are chaotic - don't sign on. There is, however, one exception to this rule: if recruiting/hiring is outsourced, then one may not interfere too much about the company from recruiters' behavior (there are many corporation where the friendly HR lady next door was replaced by a mailing list in a low cost country).
• rickeydidio 5y ago
  Former recruiter, current data analyst here… recruiters do that for 2 reasons.. 1) when you call someone it is immediate and you control the process. They aren’t waiting for you to email back. 2) recruiters want your “buy in”. It’s old school bs but if you can’t make time for a phone call then how committed are you to the process. Having said that, I’m currently looking and receive 10+ calls and emails a week. I rarely answer the calls or reply to emails but if the email is interesting to me and looks like a fit then I reply and ask them to call when they can.
  • pdimitar 5y ago
    Well, you just described the process for most programmers: we want to first see if we are interested and only then schedule a phone call. Pressuring me into a phone call just nets you a generic "let me get back to you" and 90% of the time I never do. I am not committed to their process, not to the process, you know?
    • rickeydidio 5y ago
      You're right on the money. Plus, most people want to see if the role is actually a fit. 50% of the roles I receive are data pipeline and BI infrastructure roles. I'm on the analytics side but because SQL is on my resume, it comes up in their searches. Majority of recruiters don't know the different so of course I don't want to waste 10-15 minutes on each of these calls.
• eru 5y ago
  I have the same impression. But I suspect it's not recruiters who are the weirdos. It might be us! Many normal people seem to prefer phone calls. Programmers seem to be in the minority of people who prefer written and asynchronous communication.
• archsurface 5y ago
  The like the phone so that they can ask questions in passing to find out what other roles they're competing for. You're their commission, so they have a sports coach/psychologist approach to groom and herd you. I pretty much shouted at the recruiter for my current job, finally losing it with all her calls just before I went into the interview - a sheepdog darting left and right of the sheep.
• peakaboo 5y ago
  I used to have recruiters call me daily and I just had to stop answering the phone on random numbers. I can't work for a customer and take recruiter calls at the same time. You would think recruiters would understand this but they just done care and just continue calling about new roles.