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Anybody here regularly lift weights?

23 points by ejs 18y ago

I am looking for some beta testers for an app I am working on ( http://overtrainer.com/ ). If anybody out there wants to play around and give some feedback I would be greatful. The app is for planning, logging and tracking results of workouts mainly weight lifting movements right now. Thanks!

ejs 18y ago
Link (for lazy people like me): http://overtrainer.com/ http://overtrainer.com/
- dcurtis 18y ago
  Interestingly, I wasn't going to go to the site until I saw your link and clicked it.
  - daniel-cussen 18y ago
    Same here.
- Alex3917 18y ago
  Why would you call a site for athletes overtrainer? That's like naming your dating site herpesSpace.
  - kingkongrevenge 18y ago
    Most people I've seen taking a logbook approach to working out over-train... First of all, if you have time to take notes or carry a water bottle while working out, as far as I'm concerned you're doing it wrong. Pick up the pace. It's almost always just porky nerds who have notebooks. A structured planned mentality to lifting is counter-productive. In terms of how much and how hard to go, you really need to listen to your body on any given day. Some times your immune system really is telling you to take it light and easy and wrap it up in fifteen minutes. Also, it's most effective to dramatically vary routines and volume/intensity quite randomly from a large repertoire of exercises to prevent habituation. This simply doesn't produce useful time series, so notes are pointless. Perhaps the biggest problem with a structured and planned approach to exercise is that it's not playful. It's of the wrong mentality to enjoy yourself.
    - HeyLaughingBoy 18y ago
      There's structure and then there's rigidity. I always took a structured approach (today I'm going to do legs & lower back), but modulated the intensity according to how I was feeling, my energy level, etc. By using that structure, I knew what my plan was and I could avoid overtraining a bodypart. And my notes are useful 10 years later. I can see progression, and the comment "allergies bad today" will explain why I cut sets short, etc. That said, I wouldn't use software to do this. My clipboard served me well for years.
      - Alex3917 18y ago
        Excel is useful though because it makes it easy to extrapolate how fast you will be in the future. Just being able to know whether your cardio is improving linearly or logarithmically is huge, along with various muscle groups. It's very hard to identify your sticking points without being able to turn the data into graphs.
    - pkaler 18y ago
      "It's almost always just porky nerds who have notebooks." I've logged every workout I've done over the last 14 years. I squat over 300 lbs and deadlift 450 lbs. My roommate in university was an olympic lifter. The entire team logged their workouts. Serious athletes log workouts.
      - kingkongrevenge 18y ago
        I think it's a bad idea to model a personal fitness regimen on competitive athletes. They are typically over trained. Really, they're typically damaging their health somewhat. And again, metric driven discipline is just not the right mentality to bring to exercise for 99% of the population. Also, you should read about high weight dead lifts and spine stress fractures. You are probably damaging your back.
        swombat 18y ago
        I think it's a bad idea to model a personal fitness regimen on competitive athletes Agreed, but logbooks are not a fitness regimen, they're a simple, useful technique for maintaining control of whatever fitness regimen you pick.
  - josefresco 18y ago
    Herpes dating site's are actually quite popular (1 in 5 Americans are infected) so your example pretty much sucks. If you have herpes, joining a "positive" dating site means you can date without having to worry.
    - jamesbritt 18y ago
      These seems like a variation on Internet Rule 34. No matter what you think is a down-side or turn-off, someone has or will soon make a Web business off of it.
  - bootload 18y ago
    "... Why would you call a site for athletes overtrainer? ..." Maybe because there is an optimal point in training. Working with weights is about repetition. Too much and you overtire or worse, injure yourself. Too little and you miss out on the benefits. The thing I would want to know is what benefit I'd get from logging this on a site (with all the associated hassles) compared to noting it in a log book with pencil & paper? Being able to see the results is a good motivational point.
    - ejs 18y ago
      You do bring up a good point. I have logged workouts for years into paper, and its easy to do, damn easy. I have done this in the impromptu way of writing what I am going to do next on the fly, or plan it out in a spreadsheet, print it and fill it in from there. The problem I have always had with these methods is after some time I have a big stack of rumpled papers, too much data really. To evaluate progress I just read through and try to grasp some qualitative comparison. By that point it would be far too much work to sit and enter all of the data into a spreadsheet. The point I am trying to address is to make a data entry method as easy as paper, but with results you can easily look back on and really compare. The results can also be generated to an image, and then embedded into websites, forums, what have you, to share with friends or to make an ongoing training log. I am also trying to address the annoyances with planning workouts with spreadsheets. I have done this plenty of times and don't care for it. Usually it involves digging up some template you made for the purpose and manually typing the exercises in, its annoying. So overtrainer.com will also allow you to plan your workout and print a form that you can just fill out, making the process more streamlined. So if you dont care for anything but paper thats fine! You can still plan your workouts and print the form. Thanks to everyone for all the feedback, its been really helpful.
      - bootload 18y ago
        "... The problem I have always had with these methods is after some time I have a big stack of rumpled papers, too much data really. To evaluate progress I just read through and try to grasp some qualitative comparison. By that point it would be far too much work to sit and enter all of the data into a spreadsheet. ..." Agreed. Doing this by paper is probably dead, spreadsheets so, so. Having a web based alternative is something that compelling if you continue using it. Is there a social side of this? Like working out a gym and comparing weights?
  - randomwalker 18y ago
    totally agree. i lift regularly. i'm just not going to use a site with that name. even to test it. it's just a huge mental block. sorry.
  - ejs 18y ago
    The name is a funny thing, this app has been a hobby of mine I have been working on here and there for a bit. It has always been geared towards the serious lifting crowd. I thought the name was easy to remember, easy to tell someone that they can spell again, and was slightly controversial (as seen in this thread!) But since I am gearing this towards serious folks I don't think they will act like noobs do and fear overtraining like its some kind of infection one suddenly contracts with after doing one extra set. In fact most of the people I talked to (standing around between sets), mostly people that compete in bodybuilding and power lifting, thought that the name was funny as most people would call what they do 'overtraining'. Since there are a lot of obviously knowledgeable people here let me ask, do you think you will remember the name now? do you think if it was named some random jumble of letters you would remember it more or less? Anyway thanks for all the feedback!
    - Alex3917 18y ago
      "most people would call what they do 'overtraining'." No, they wouldn't. Overtraining is a specific thing -- chronic glycogen depletion. It's only tangentially related to how much you work out. It's extremely serious too. One of my friends wasn't allowed to use his legs for several months, so he had to sit on the couch and watch cartoons all day.
  - deleted 18y ago
    [deleted]
  - symptic 18y ago
    Over-training is term used in weight lifting for those who are looking to build muscle mass by overloading their muscles during their working, forcing it to go into a greater "repair mode" than from your average person lifting regimen. Another term would be 'lifting to failure', which obviously doesn't sound as good/simple as overtraining. It's understandable you're not within his target demographic and can't relate to the idea, but your comment is rude regardless.
- vlam 18y ago
  Out of curiosity, why do URLs turn into links in comments but not Ask YC posts?
  - DabAsteroid 18y ago
    http://ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html http://ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html
donna 18y ago
I do a morning routine using the program "Body for Life"..
whalliburton 18y ago
I am of the opinion that lifting weights is just damage and not really useful in comparison to many other activities. I was a college football player and could put 375lb above my head, squat over 500lb and bench press 225lb over 30 times. That said. That is not health, but damage. Unless you can move your own body weight efficiently what is the point in lifting metal. Try Tai Chi or some form of movement that works on integrating the control of the entire body. Almost all weightlifting is isolating muscles and detaching the control of the muscles from each other. Muscles are also one of the weakest parts of the body structurally so strengthening them does little for the overall strength of the body, which is only what most weight lifting succeeds in doing . There are better ways to strengthen the joints and bones and tendons and ligaments.
- newt0311 18y ago
  Half right, half wrong. Lifting weights in isolation is useful but not particularly. However lifting weights with some exercise for careful movement control like Tai Chi is the best combo. Tai Chi just by itself is useful but without some alternate workouts, its doesn't help cardiovascular stamina and normally low load muscles like the biceps. However, given a choice between just Tai Chi and just weight lifting, I would choose Tai Chi any day. The weakest part of the body is bullshit. The strongest parts are the bones but that because they are structural elements and nothing else. The most you can do with bones is stand upright (and even that only after very careful balancing). If you want to actually do anything, you need muscles. Furthermore, bones can not apply any force without muscles. Even in soft martial arts like Tai Chi which use the weight of the entire body, muscles are needed for control. Furthermore, even in Tai Chi, strong laterals and abs are an absolute must because all movement stems from the hips and is supported by the thighs. Without these two, you are screwed. Lastly, while Tai Chi works on integrating the control of the entire body, it also tries to make the user aware of all the individual muscles in their body.
  - whalliburton 18y ago
    Out of all the elements I mentioned, muscles are the weakest, which you don't counter except to acknowledge. So not a bullshit thought. You only need the muscles to position the body. Structure and grounding toward the earth is the source of strength, not actual muscle exertion. If you can properly use your body you will not need the muscles for more than position, not resistance. Real speed and strength comes from complete relaxation and not tension, which weight lifting only promotes. The problem, in my eyes, of current weightlifters, is that they believe that they are healthy because they can lift certain weights under certain conditions. Move to a different context and that "strength" does no good and generally is a detriment both to coordination and to speed. Let me add that this is from a martial artist perspective. Of course muscles are needed to do work like climb a mountain or such, but your are better at growth trying to climb that mountain than some form of gym weightlifting activity.
tdavis 18y ago
I used to lift a couple times a day and am looking to get back into it, though probably only once a day. I'd be happy to test out the app.
- kingkongrevenge 18y ago
  Forty minutes twice a week is more than enough time if you're doing it right. If you can lift two days in a row in perfect comfort you're doing it wrong.
  - tdavis 18y ago
    Actually it's exceedingly simple: You don't work the same muscle groups more than every 2-3 days. Your argument suggests that if I do legs in the morning I shouldn't be able to do bi/tri that evening for example, which is pretty asinine. We are talking about two different things. I was power lifting which involves different workouts than total-body or body-weight exercises, for example. For the most part, though, the morning was reserved for cardio and very little lifting, mainly just some body-weight exercises. 40 minutes twice a week isn't nearly enough unless you're not looking for very good gains.
radley 18y ago
How do we get the app or contact you for feedback? Your page seems to only have a sign-up for notifications, but doesn't send a response... BTW - I've been looking for, and even considered developing, an iPhone app like this. Most are made for runners and calorie-counters, not work-outs.
tdoggette 18y ago
Me too! Oh wait no, this is HN, not a general discussion forum. My bad.
mikesabat 18y ago
Hi EJS, I'm definitely interesting in testing out the app. I have given a lot of thought to this. I used to work for pumpone.com and know a few of the issues.
ejs 18y ago
Sorry I should have said please leave contact info, or email me at erick@overtrainer.com if you would like to do some testing with it Sorry about the ambiguity!
spydertennis 18y ago
Hey, I lift almost everyday as well as doing cardio. I'd love to check out your app and give you some feedback. EDIT: sorry, realized i forgot my contact info and emailed you instead
jotto 18y ago
We should get in contact. I work on http://voomaxer.com http://voomaxer.com and my mantra is to prevent people from overtraining. So far I only handle run/walk/swim/bike/sleep/heart/weight but I want to get into weights.
aaroniba 18y ago
I think the user interface for data entry is the key problem in using software to track gym workouts. I lift 4x per week and have tried various workout logging software, but have yet to find anything that works better than a simple notebook and pen. A typical session's data includes 6 exercises, 4 sets each, weight and rep count for each set, so 48 numbers altogether, all related to each other in different ways. Plus I like to keep notes in the margin like "grip the bar wider" or "slower negative movement". If you can create an iphone app with a user interface that makes it really really easy to enter workout data, then I think you would find a large market. I payed for gyminee.com because I thought it might deliver this, but the data entry was still too annoying. The built-in Notes program on the iphone was actually better. Also, as other people have mentioned, "overtraining" has negative connotations, so I'm curious why you picked this name. Best of luck. I think this is something people want.
phil_KartMe 18y ago
nice tagline for the post. its a great idea to have beta testers be in your target market
muerdeme 18y ago
I'd happily beta test. I currently use http://www.gyminee.com http://www.gyminee.com to track my workouts.
unalone 18y ago
I've just started working out in the last few weeks, now that college has started. 1) Is your start-up one that would help me, new and inexperienced? If so, I'm interested, providing: 2) Do you need people testing that aren't particularly skilled at working out? Either way, best of luck with your app.
- ejs 18y ago
  Although this is geared towards the more experienced I would like to hear your thoughts as someone starting out. Let me know at erick@overtrainer.com if you would like to play around with it. Thanks
  - anamax 18y ago
    Market research question. Are there more people starting to exercise and looking for help or more people who already are exercising and would like help? One difference between the two groups is that the former hasn't gotten past the "most people quit after 2 months" stage. Is that more of a need than better recordkeeping is for the latter? (Successful first products tend to be painkillers, not vitamins.)
mrtron 18y ago
I workout regularly and have for quite a few years. a) I don't track the numbers, I know what I lift without writing it down. b) Overtrainer is a bad name...as mentioned. Over training almost never happens and has a bad stigma. People have difficulty getting TO the gym, not staying away. c) I don't see it solving a problem. How many people do you know that say 'I wish I could have better charts of my lifting amounts'? Or 'I wish I didn't workout as often'. Sorry for the negative feedback, but it's sincere.
- seano 18y ago
  "How many people do you know that say 'I wish I could have better charts of my lifting amounts'?" BodySpace on bodybuilding.com, which does this, currently has over 200,000 active members - so quite a few actually.
anamax 18y ago
You asked people what they thought and you're arguing with them. If there are other people who like overtrainer, great. However, right now the only feedback is negative. Until you've got more, you're wrong.

aaroniba 18y ago

Without some kind of logbook, how do you even evaluate how well you're doing? In my experience, most successful bodybuilders take a scientific approach to their training. The main variables that affect physique are genetics, diet, and routine. Different diets and routines work for different people, so to achieve the best results it's important to experiment. A log book gives you data to learn how to improve your routine. Even your point on the importance of varying routines is best achieved by using a log book. Try a steady routine for 3 months and measure your gains. Then try "dramatically varying" your routine for 3 months and measure your gains. Now you have data to support your own optimal workout plan. Finally, to your point about picking up the pace: most routines involve rest between sets, so if you log while resting then it doesn't slow you down.

kingkongrevenge 18y ago
> most routines involve rest between sets Body building and power lifting routines involve rest between sets. The rest is needed to achieve the volume which induces sarcoplasmic hypertrophy. Those guys look puffed up and ridiculous, in my opinion. They're also slow and have diminished hand speed and explosive power. High volume bench pressing, for example, will actually weaken your punch. Capillary density is also reduced and endurance is weakened. Brief and intense routines with very little rest give you endurance, make you fast, lean, and not puffed up. You routinely see chubby guys lumbering around, resting, and then moving some heavy weights. Every time I see some one going for brief intensity they're ripped, and usually among the strongest anyway.
- mrtron 18y ago
  I really disagree with things you state as facts. Firstly, the different between appearing ripped and appearing 'puffy' or bigger is far more about diet and cardio than anaerobic activity. The guys with abs at the gym are far less about practical strength and more about a strict diet and large amounts of aerobic exercise to put them at an unnaturally low body fat percentage. High volume bench press will weaken your punch? I call bullshit. Tell that to someone like Houston Alexander. Or Rashad Evans tonite, knocking out the best puncher in MMA (and clearly a weightlifter). Brief and intense exercise doesn't give you very little endurance. Instead, it works your muscles, primarily recruiting fast twitch muscles and improving anaerobic efficiency. Lastly, if body building/power lifting routines are making you slower and less explosive, why when I was training as a competitive gymnast were we training with large weight/low reps and weighted pylometrics to gain speed and explosiveness? I always hear talk about 'overtraining' but really I think the huge issue is under nutrition. I trained 20+ hours a week when I was younger as a competitive gymnast and didn't come close to overtraining. Overtraining occurs when serious bodybuilders workout 4+ hours a day, not when you workout twice a week for 30 minutes. Finally, I find your 'ripped is the strongest' statement ridiculous.
  - johnyzee 18y ago
    Thanks for the spoiler, guess I won't have to watch UFC 88 after all.
  - kingkongrevenge 18y ago
    I'm really not sure where you contradict me. The subject was high volume body building style routines, and the merits of intensity over volume. You don't seem to address this. I guarantee you no fighter trains anything at all like a body builder. The focus is on hand speed and explosive force. It is an absolutely proven fact that high volume and emphasis on maximal force training compromises speed and endurance. The low reps and plyometrics you mention have nothing to do with body building routines... I don't think anyone would suggest 30 minutes twice a week would lead to overtraining. That's a pretty good target, actually. Most people trying to get fit sort of half ass it five days a week, though. I'm not sure over-training is the right word, but they definitely spend way too much time training. But as far as training 20 hours a week, that's far in excess of any health benefits, which was my point above with regard to not modeling on athletes. Competition level training involves major oxidation and over nitrification stress. Hormone profiles are messed up. Pro and college level athletes are not doing their health any favors. I will have to disagree with your claim that getting cut is necessarily about aerobic exercise. Aerobics can certainly help, but another way lower fat is via boosted growth hormone. That "oh I'm going to puke" feeling you get from brief intense training is surging growth hormone levels. It makes you nauseous. It also reconfigures your body to be lean.
- aaroniba 18y ago
  > Body building and power lifting routines involve rest between sets. I thought this whole thread was about bodybuilding. That would be the target market for the app that was posted. I claimed that a logbook is useful for bodybuilders. Originally I thought you were saying that logbooks were bad for bodybuilders, but now I suppose you are saying that bodybuilding in general is a bad activity. That's a whole different debate. Personally I like the appearance of a lean, muscular, and proportional physique, which is what bodybuilding is all about (not that I've attained this yet, but it's a goal). > They're also slow and have diminished hand speed and explosive power Bodybuilding won't slow you down, but it's not the optimal way to develop speed, since it develops slow-twitch muscles more than fast-twitch ones. I don't understand at all your advocating "brief and intense" routines as an alternative to bodybuilding. Most bodybuilding routines are brief and intense sets, with some rest in between.
  - kingkongrevenge 18y ago
    > Bodybuilding won't slow you down Yes it will. I amateur box and getting in the ring with big muscular guys who obvious do bodybuilding style routines is great. They can't flick out fast punches and they run out of juice inside three rounds. This is well researched.
vlad 18y ago
Not genetics. Diet, Regular Workouts, and Sleep will lead to similar results for a given age group. There is nothing in genetics that will make you inept, except of course genetic mutations that are sometimes bad and sometimes good. But for normal people, genetics do not matter. One will never reach their genetic "glass ceiling" in fitness. I would also maybe add not having injuries. Because that also stops a person from training as much as they could otherwise. What you eat and at which points you eat it, what and how regularly you work out, whether you get enough sleep, and whether you currently have injuries are the most important factors. A fifth factor would probably be whether you have a workout partner to motivate you and spot you, so you always have a spotter, and thus can push yourself harder and get the most out of each exercise.
- DabAsteroid 18y ago
  Not genetics. Diet, Regular Workouts, and Sleep will lead to similar results for a given age group. Therefore, a group of average males can confidently be predicted to achieve the same fat/muscle ratio as a group of average females -- as long as their diet regimens, workout regimens, sleep regimens, and ages are the same?
  - ovi256 18y ago
    Strawman, and you know it.
- aaroniba 18y ago
  Genetics has a huge influence over your physique. For example, if you take a random sample of people who do not exercise regularly, there will be a wide variation in their bicep sizes. Genetics also controls things like metabolism and how well you respond to weight training, so you need to adjust your diet accordingly. I do agree with you that motivation and a good routine can create superior results in anyone. I was just pointing out that some people will have to work harder than others, diet harder, or eat more, or whatever.
  - vlad 18y ago
    I disagree. Genetics have very little influence over one's physique as long as other more important factors are considered, such as the person's activity level, amount of sleep, eating patterns, and work out routine. For a given person, those will be the differentials. Also, focusing on genetics ignores the fact that the exercise routines would be different for each person. Without knowing one's own genome sequence, a person who tries to stay active will learn what their body's preference is in terms of exercise. For me, I focused on muscle size. Other athletes focus on weight. Others focus on speed and conditioning. One will figure out which sports their body is meant for soon enough if they exercise regularly. The factors I've mentioned are also ones the person will learn to adjust--not their genetics. I don't know much about my genetics except that I'm taller than my parents. But I have observed changes in my body after working out regularly. These changes included improvements in metabolism, hunger, body mass, mood, confidence, speed, and posture. My genetics presumably did not change in the same span of time. (Neither are they something I can control.) So therefore, the person's activity level, amount of sleep, eating patterns, and a stable, consistent, work out routine are what matter the most. Comparing two different people entirely (in other words, two people with different genetics) is purely theoretical and not practical, as each individual would have had different prior sports experience, confidence level, access to quality foods, knowledge about nutrition, free time, and more. Even if one did somehow match two people with the same activity levels at a given point in time, they are almost guaranteed to have entirely different results in the future for those reasons. Similarly, two twins with identical genes will have huge differences in fitness if one considers the factors I've mentioned and one doesn't. Also, their metabolism levels, "bicep size", and other body features will be noticeably different. Genes might cap one's maximum ability: some people have genetic diseases affecting their physical ability, while others have "caps" that are greater than those of other people. But while in the first case it might be easier to zero in on somebody's (physical) limits correctly, in everybody else, it is impossible to tell how strong, fast, athletic, or muscular a given person can be, or what their metabolism will be like, when they're athletic. Progressing from spending 20 minutes exercising, three times a week, to playing sports for 2 hours at a time three times a week, lifting weights for 90 minutes four times a week, and running for about 30 minutes a few times a week, all at once, does not depend on one's genes. Also, I want to point out that it may only be record-setting Olympic athletes who truly get close to their genetic caps, and therefore genetics are not a factor for most normal people. Finally, regarding bicep size, here is a quote from the first search result on Google: "Genetics play perhaps the most important part of not only how large your arms can be but also their shape. Now if you are not a genetically gifted bodybuilder do not take this statement as a cause for you to have a yard sale and sell your weights. True, you may not be able to develop a 21” arm but this will not prevent you from sporting an 18” or even 19” well shaped and defined arm and whats wrong with that? A well shaped defined 18” arm is much more impressive than a flat chunk of flesh that measures 21” anyway. It takes a lot of time and experience before one can say for certain any lack of arm development is due to genetics. Dont be quick in jumping to this assessment; its the lazy way out." http://www.criticalbench.com/armmass.htm http://www.criticalbench.com/armmass.htm

randallsquared 18y ago
"I was a college football player and could put 375lb above my head, squat over 500lb and bench press 225lb over 30 times." and then "Real speed and strength comes from complete relaxation and not tension, which weight lifting only promotes." May we assume, then, that now that you don't lift weights, you can squat and bench more? No? Maybe it isn't a good idea to use "strength" to mean something other than what everyone else means by it.
- whalliburton 18y ago
  I cannot squat nearly as much nor bench nearly as much, but if that is you metric of health I will point you to several power lifters that died an early death. The strength I am referring is the strength of the "climb a mountain" type or the "move from point A to point B in the most economical way" kind or the "take on an adversary much stronger than myself" kind. On the speed side, for example, weightlifting, as it is popularly promoted, slows down the body. The biceps and the triceps work against each other and unless you can properly relax the countering muscle your intentions will be dampened. Weightlifting generally promotes tension in all muscles, thus a general slowing down.
  - mrtron 18y ago
    Those power lifters probably did a lot of anabolic steroids.
  - trapper 18y ago
    I am sure all the top sprinters in the world would agree. They never do weights, or use drugs to make them stronger. Olympic weightlifters aren't faster over a short distance than most sprinters, nor are bobsledders. Most bobsledders are weak and slow, barely able to lift .... if you go to pubmed, you won't find research showing an increase in speed entirely due to weightlifting routines. /end sarcasm.
  - randallsquared 18y ago
    "if that is you metric of health" You were previously talking about "strength" rather than "health". At least, you used the word "strength," so I assumed that was what you meant. If you meant to be talking about general health, then that's very different, and I don't have much to say on it. :)
  - herdrick 18y ago
    Nonsense. I started climbing mountains not long ago, and, having lifted weights for many years, was able to go further and faster than most experienced climbers. (Though of course in mountaineering your brain is more important than your legs.) Same with skiing, trail running, backpacking... strength helps with everything. Your biceps and triceps must work against each other or you will have no control over what you're doing. Sounds like you've fallen under the influence of quacks.
seano 18y ago
"Real speed and strength comes from complete relaxation and not tension, which weight lifting only promotes." The fastest man in the world, Usain Bolt, uses weight lifting as part of his training routine - as do elite athletes in almost all sports (with a particularly important role in those requiring high levels of strength and speed).