6 ms·

Yes, this needs to be said. What the unvaccinated are doing right now is conducing a DDOS attack on the whole medical system. This is going to cost them dearly,

Yes, this needs to be said. What the unvaccinated are doing right now is conducing a DDOS attack on the whole medical system. This is going to cost them dearly, but everybody else will also pay a steep price. Is it really your freedom, if other people have to pay for it with their lives?

kdom13 5y ago
Should we be similarly condemning speeders, drunk drivers, obese people, etc., for hogging up hospital beds as a result of their reckless behavior?
- Der_Einzige 5y ago
  Already two one word responses of "yes". I have to also echo the "yes" comments given here. Yes, obese people do deserve stigma/condemnation as their condition is not victimless.
- belltaco 5y ago
  >speeders, drunk drivers Unsafe and drunk drivers are quite condemned. Obese people don't normally make hospital beds unavailable. If there was a safe, easy to take and effective vaccine against obesity, but they refused to take it, they would be condemned much more. Plus none of them can infect others with their affliction.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - johnisgood 5y ago
    > If there was a safe, easy to take and effective vaccine against obesity, but they refused to take it, they would be condemned much more. Seriously? What about the good ol' "eat less" (excluding the rare cases where it is related to metabolism disorders)?
    - belltaco 5y ago
      In what world is "eat less" as easy or effective as getting a shot? Losing weight is quite hard and keeping it off is next to impossible, given that very few succeed. In case you're serious, you can read this. https://slimemoldtimemold.com/2021/07/11/a-chemical-hunger-part-ii-current-theories-of-obesity-are-inadequate/ https://slimemoldtimemold.com/2021/07/11/a-chemical-hunger-p...
      - johnisgood 5y ago
        Vaccination is used for prevention. Eating less is also prevention (or would you rather prefer "not eating a lot"?)... from getting obese. Once you are obese, eating less also could serve as a treatment; you lose weight.
        belltaco 5y ago
        Maybe, but it's not easy at all unlike getting a vaccine. Otherwise we wouldn't be seeing a global epidemic of obesity. One has to eat less for a very long amount of time.
        johnisgood 5y ago
        Are obese people starting off as obese though? I would think that they have to eat a lot to become obese to begin with, which suggests that eating less prevents one from getting obese[1]. Eating less is both prevention and treatment. [1] Excluding metabolic disorders
- eliaspro 5y ago
  None of these are infectious with a doubling rate of 2.5-4 days.
  - bsaul 5y ago
    Well, if anything the past two months has taught us, is that vaccination rate in countries has zero impact on the number of cases of the next wave.
    - jacquesm 5y ago
      That's not what we've learned.
    - kadoban 5y ago
      I highly doubt you have data showing that. If you do, I'd be very interested in seeing it. At the very least though, the vaccination rate has a large effect on hospitalizations and deaths.
    - simonh 5y ago
      That certainly was not true pre-omicron. Here I’m the UK even with Delta, widespread early vaccination made a huge difference. Life here largely returned to normal for much of the past year with very low hospitalisation rates. It saved huge numbers of lives, with a relatively open society. Now with omicron it’s spreading so fast that even though it seems to be less likely to put you in hospital, it’s infecting so many people the numbers in hospital are shooting up anyway. Vaccination is still saving huge numbers of lives here, but we are phasing in some limited lockdown rules as they become necessary. On a personal note I caught the virus 2 weeks ago. I was pretty sick for a few days, but shook it off after a week thanks to being fully vaccinated. The rest of my family had it too and my reaction was the worst. I hate to think what it would have been like if I hadn’t had the vaccine working for me as well. I’d probably be dead.
      - kbelder 5y ago
        You're making a lot of assumptions, there. It would likely have been worse if you weren't vaccinated, but not necessarily. It would almost certainly not killed you. You just need to remember to add 'probably' or 'possibly' in front of most of your statements. People will accept them more, and your mind will be clearer and more rational.
- Fatnino 5y ago
  Yes
- delecti 5y ago
  > condemning speeders, drunk drivers Yes, absolutely, 100%. There's a reason we have laws against those things: to condemn that behavior. > obese people The causes of the obesity pandemic in the developed world are too complicated to blanket say that all obese people are "reckless". Certainly some are though.
  - bsaul 5y ago
    smokers ? skateboarders ? alcohol drinkers ? rough sport amateurs ? People who don't exercise enough ? Those who eat junk food on their coach the whole day ? Don't you see where this is going ? Do you really want the government to dictate every single decision in your life, as soon as they're deemed "dangeours for the rest of the society" in one way or another ?
- throwaway6734 5y ago
  Yes
- paulryanrogers 5y ago
  Drunk and other reckless drivers are already breaking laws, for which many do suffer the consequences personally. As to the obese and immuno-compromised also ending up in hospitals, many were born with a much higher than average risk for their conditions. Getting vaccinated is likely much easier than maintaining a healthy weight in this age of industrial "food" or being born without a high risk condition.
- BaculumMeumEst 5y ago
- eska 5y ago
  What a poor attempt at causing a false choice logical fallacy. Drunk drivers are some of the most hated people in society. Obesity can occur without own responsibility or at least be much more difficult to deal with for some people. It also doesn't infect people that walk past.
- tzs 5y ago
  Speeders and drunk drivers don't overwhelm hospital capacity because there aren't enough of them, and the injuries they cause are usually physical trauma that usual doesn't require as much resources to treat as does COVID. Obese people don't overwhelm hospital capacity because it is highly variable how long it takes for obesity to result in something that puts you in the hospital. Moderately obese people lose on average about 3 years of life. As far as hospital capacity goes the impact is that the people handling long term capacity planning have to change their forecasts to call for a little more capacity a little sooner.
  - paulpauper 5y ago
    It's surprising it's only 3 years, and that is for men. For women it's even less. Most people if surveyed would guess figures like 10 years or more, but as it turns out, obesity just is not as big of a killer as the media hype would have one believe.
malchow 5y ago
- lmilcin 5y ago
  > In fact, I'd love for you even to make the first necessary point in that argument: that hospitals in the U.S. are currently widely running out of capacity to treat patients Don't be fooled by bed availability. They put more beds, sure, but AFAIK they still haven't found a way to mass produce more medical staff.
  - malchow 5y ago
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - detaro 5y ago
      the "DDOS attack" quote is from somebody else...
- belltaco 5y ago
  >followed a nerve gas attack playbook for a respiratory illness with a 0.2% fatality rate >I'd love to see you illustrate with numbers the DDOS that you believe the unvaccinated population is visiting on hospitals. There are only about 2.5 hospital beds per 1000 in the US. 0.2% is already 20 per thousand. Plus a lot more need(ed) hospitalization and proper medical care and oxygen in order to survive. Not to mention that hospitals have a high occupancy outside of covid, so not all beds are available just for covid patients.
  - stavros 5y ago
    > 0.2% is already 20 per thousand. Don't you mean 2 per thousand?
  - inglor_cz 5y ago
api 5y ago
Simple solution: if you refuse vaccination for a non-medical reason and require treatment for COVID, you pay out of pocket. No insurance, no medicare, no medicaid. Best of all isn't personal responsibility a classical conservative thing? Don't want to do something simple and free to keep yourself out of the hospital? Fine, but you get to pay for it. Of course they will just go bankrupt and we'll end up paying for it anyway, but at least it will send a message. Could be extended to other forms of adherence to flagrant health quackery. I have zero sympathy for this insanity anymore. If you get your health information from YouTube you are an idiot.
- sokoloff 5y ago
  Where does that line end? Smoking-related diseases? Obesity related presentations? Extreme sports injuries? Drunk driving crashes? Drug overdoses? Unwanted pregnancies? There’s a whole lot of reasons people end up in the hospital, plenty of which someone will conclude “well, that was more stupid than I’m comfortable paying for”, and having to do a full circumstances checkup to figure out which price and to whom to charge seems…problematic.
  - klyrs 5y ago
    Fun fact, there are insurance exemptions and penalties for at least a few of the things you've listed. Your jurisdiction & policy may vary, but where I live, smoking can increase your insurance rates and make you ineligible for things like kidney transplants; injuries sustained while intoxicated are considered at-fault and aren't insured. I think that includes overdoses. People who engage in extreme sports are encouraged to get specific life insurance because most policies don't cover wanton recklessness. Unwanted pregnancy? Not where I live, but anti-abortion laws are coming fast and furious across the US, and yes, children are extremely expensive and entirely your responsibility. The unresearched whataboutisms in this thread are truly something else.
  - vaxxz 5y ago
    > Where does that line end? Smoking-related diseases? Obesity related presentations? Extreme sports injuries? Drunk driving crashes? Drug overdoses? Unwanted pregnancies? With the exception of drunk driving, the others do not directly pose an immediate risk to others.
michaelhenchard 5y ago

kdom13 5y ago

Should we be similarly condemning speeders, drunk drivers, obese people, etc., for hogging up hospital beds as a result of their reckless behavior?

Der_Einzige 5y ago
Already two one word responses of "yes". I have to also echo the "yes" comments given here. Yes, obese people do deserve stigma/condemnation as their condition is not victimless.
belltaco 5y ago
>speeders, drunk drivers Unsafe and drunk drivers are quite condemned. Obese people don't normally make hospital beds unavailable. If there was a safe, easy to take and effective vaccine against obesity, but they refused to take it, they would be condemned much more. Plus none of them can infect others with their affliction.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- johnisgood 5y ago
  > If there was a safe, easy to take and effective vaccine against obesity, but they refused to take it, they would be condemned much more. Seriously? What about the good ol' "eat less" (excluding the rare cases where it is related to metabolism disorders)?
  - belltaco 5y ago
    In what world is "eat less" as easy or effective as getting a shot? Losing weight is quite hard and keeping it off is next to impossible, given that very few succeed. In case you're serious, you can read this. https://slimemoldtimemold.com/2021/07/11/a-chemical-hunger-part-ii-current-theories-of-obesity-are-inadequate/ https://slimemoldtimemold.com/2021/07/11/a-chemical-hunger-p...
    - johnisgood 5y ago
      Vaccination is used for prevention. Eating less is also prevention (or would you rather prefer "not eating a lot"?)... from getting obese. Once you are obese, eating less also could serve as a treatment; you lose weight.
      - belltaco 5y ago
        Maybe, but it's not easy at all unlike getting a vaccine. Otherwise we wouldn't be seeing a global epidemic of obesity. One has to eat less for a very long amount of time.
        johnisgood 5y ago
        Are obese people starting off as obese though? I would think that they have to eat a lot to become obese to begin with, which suggests that eating less prevents one from getting obese[1]. Eating less is both prevention and treatment. [1] Excluding metabolic disorders
eliaspro 5y ago
None of these are infectious with a doubling rate of 2.5-4 days.
- bsaul 5y ago
  Well, if anything the past two months has taught us, is that vaccination rate in countries has zero impact on the number of cases of the next wave.
  - jacquesm 5y ago
    That's not what we've learned.
  - kadoban 5y ago
    I highly doubt you have data showing that. If you do, I'd be very interested in seeing it. At the very least though, the vaccination rate has a large effect on hospitalizations and deaths.
  - simonh 5y ago
    That certainly was not true pre-omicron. Here I’m the UK even with Delta, widespread early vaccination made a huge difference. Life here largely returned to normal for much of the past year with very low hospitalisation rates. It saved huge numbers of lives, with a relatively open society. Now with omicron it’s spreading so fast that even though it seems to be less likely to put you in hospital, it’s infecting so many people the numbers in hospital are shooting up anyway. Vaccination is still saving huge numbers of lives here, but we are phasing in some limited lockdown rules as they become necessary. On a personal note I caught the virus 2 weeks ago. I was pretty sick for a few days, but shook it off after a week thanks to being fully vaccinated. The rest of my family had it too and my reaction was the worst. I hate to think what it would have been like if I hadn’t had the vaccine working for me as well. I’d probably be dead.
    - kbelder 5y ago
      You're making a lot of assumptions, there. It would likely have been worse if you weren't vaccinated, but not necessarily. It would almost certainly not killed you. You just need to remember to add 'probably' or 'possibly' in front of most of your statements. People will accept them more, and your mind will be clearer and more rational.
Fatnino 5y ago
Yes
delecti 5y ago
> condemning speeders, drunk drivers Yes, absolutely, 100%. There's a reason we have laws against those things: to condemn that behavior. > obese people The causes of the obesity pandemic in the developed world are too complicated to blanket say that all obese people are "reckless". Certainly some are though.
- bsaul 5y ago
  smokers ? skateboarders ? alcohol drinkers ? rough sport amateurs ? People who don't exercise enough ? Those who eat junk food on their coach the whole day ? Don't you see where this is going ? Do you really want the government to dictate every single decision in your life, as soon as they're deemed "dangeours for the rest of the society" in one way or another ?
throwaway6734 5y ago
Yes
paulryanrogers 5y ago
Drunk and other reckless drivers are already breaking laws, for which many do suffer the consequences personally. As to the obese and immuno-compromised also ending up in hospitals, many were born with a much higher than average risk for their conditions. Getting vaccinated is likely much easier than maintaining a healthy weight in this age of industrial "food" or being born without a high risk condition.
BaculumMeumEst 5y ago
eska 5y ago
What a poor attempt at causing a false choice logical fallacy. Drunk drivers are some of the most hated people in society. Obesity can occur without own responsibility or at least be much more difficult to deal with for some people. It also doesn't infect people that walk past.
tzs 5y ago
Speeders and drunk drivers don't overwhelm hospital capacity because there aren't enough of them, and the injuries they cause are usually physical trauma that usual doesn't require as much resources to treat as does COVID. Obese people don't overwhelm hospital capacity because it is highly variable how long it takes for obesity to result in something that puts you in the hospital. Moderately obese people lose on average about 3 years of life. As far as hospital capacity goes the impact is that the people handling long term capacity planning have to change their forecasts to call for a little more capacity a little sooner.
- paulpauper 5y ago
  It's surprising it's only 3 years, and that is for men. For women it's even less. Most people if surveyed would guess figures like 10 years or more, but as it turns out, obesity just is not as big of a killer as the media hype would have one believe.

malchow 5y ago

lmilcin 5y ago
> In fact, I'd love for you even to make the first necessary point in that argument: that hospitals in the U.S. are currently widely running out of capacity to treat patients Don't be fooled by bed availability. They put more beds, sure, but AFAIK they still haven't found a way to mass produce more medical staff.
- malchow 5y ago
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - detaro 5y ago
    the "DDOS attack" quote is from somebody else...
belltaco 5y ago
>followed a nerve gas attack playbook for a respiratory illness with a 0.2% fatality rate >I'd love to see you illustrate with numbers the DDOS that you believe the unvaccinated population is visiting on hospitals. There are only about 2.5 hospital beds per 1000 in the US. 0.2% is already 20 per thousand. Plus a lot more need(ed) hospitalization and proper medical care and oxygen in order to survive. Not to mention that hospitals have a high occupancy outside of covid, so not all beds are available just for covid patients.
- stavros 5y ago
  > 0.2% is already 20 per thousand. Don't you mean 2 per thousand?
- inglor_cz 5y ago

api 5y ago

Simple solution: if you refuse vaccination for a non-medical reason and require treatment for COVID, you pay out of pocket. No insurance, no medicare, no medicaid. Best of all isn't personal responsibility a classical conservative thing? Don't want to do something simple and free to keep yourself out of the hospital? Fine, but you get to pay for it. Of course they will just go bankrupt and we'll end up paying for it anyway, but at least it will send a message. Could be extended to other forms of adherence to flagrant health quackery. I have zero sympathy for this insanity anymore. If you get your health information from YouTube you are an idiot.

sokoloff 5y ago
Where does that line end? Smoking-related diseases? Obesity related presentations? Extreme sports injuries? Drunk driving crashes? Drug overdoses? Unwanted pregnancies? There’s a whole lot of reasons people end up in the hospital, plenty of which someone will conclude “well, that was more stupid than I’m comfortable paying for”, and having to do a full circumstances checkup to figure out which price and to whom to charge seems…problematic.
- klyrs 5y ago
  Fun fact, there are insurance exemptions and penalties for at least a few of the things you've listed. Your jurisdiction & policy may vary, but where I live, smoking can increase your insurance rates and make you ineligible for things like kidney transplants; injuries sustained while intoxicated are considered at-fault and aren't insured. I think that includes overdoses. People who engage in extreme sports are encouraged to get specific life insurance because most policies don't cover wanton recklessness. Unwanted pregnancy? Not where I live, but anti-abortion laws are coming fast and furious across the US, and yes, children are extremely expensive and entirely your responsibility. The unresearched whataboutisms in this thread are truly something else.
- vaxxz 5y ago
  > Where does that line end? Smoking-related diseases? Obesity related presentations? Extreme sports injuries? Drunk driving crashes? Drug overdoses? Unwanted pregnancies? With the exception of drunk driving, the others do not directly pose an immediate risk to others.

michaelhenchard 5y ago