12 ms·

> Disclaimer: I acknowledge that I’ve been very privileged, especially in the educational opportunities I’ve had. This might sound reasonable from a US-centric

> Disclaimer: I acknowledge that I’ve been very privileged, especially in the educational opportunities I’ve had. This might sound reasonable from a US-centric perspective, but to me it reads like utter nonsense. The main privilege here is access to the US labor market and tax policy. There are no stories like this one where I live (in Sweden). Absolutely none.

xwolfi 5y ago
Yeah I d say he s been dealt very bad cards, had no problem being independent growing up in Normandy, France. I think we're priviledged by not being in the US and that guy is at the top of a turd pile...
- djohnston 5y ago
  You read that info and figure he's the unlucky one?
sneak 5y ago
One of the biggest tragedies, in my view, is what a lovely place Europe is to live, and what utter lack (seemingly for no great underlying reason) of class mobility exists there.
- dsomers 5y ago
  What an absolute joke. The United States has terrible class mobility compared to the Netherlands or Germany for example. You don’t have anything to support what you said other than a skewed perspective created by American centric media. Edit: I guess the down voters here hate facts. The US scores lower on social mobility than the majority of European countries https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Social_Mobility_Index https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Social_Mobility_Index
  - thesimon 5y ago
    Using a different metric the Netherlands are slightly better than the US, but Germany is slightly worse. https://www.oecd.org/els/soc/1-5%20generations.png https://www.oecd.org/els/soc/1-5%20generations.png
    - dsomers 5y ago
      And the majority of Europe is still ahead of the US, so what’s your point?
      - thegypsyking 5y ago
        I moved from Europe to the US, and so have a lot of other people who aim to become rich. In europe most rich people inherit everything, mobility to upper class is basically non existent. Here it’s Very much possible
    - dan-robertson 5y ago
      I’m kinda surprised by these numbers. My impression of the us is that many immigrants will be unskilled and have low incomes, but that their children will be much better off in comparison. So a few reasons these numbers could be this way: 1. My intuition is wrong 2. There are lots of people in low income groups where there is little i regeneration along mobility for structural reasons, or maybe immigrants children who often see the biggest improvements are excluded for some reason. 3. The chart talks about reaching mean income. Particularly in the US, mean income is higher than median income so even if achieving the latter is easier, achieving the former could be harder. To some extent the metric may disadvantage countries where the highest-earning few percent of the population earn a lot more than the median person.
    - lpv 5y ago
      That graph, and "social mobility" analysis in general, shows the movement from low income to average. This is good for a country overall, but it's irrelevant to the discussion that people are having in this thread. Most people here are more interested in the median to rich movement. Unfortunately this movement is practically impossible in countries like Sweden and NL (for an employee). Let's take a typical profile that HN users would be interested in, a top10% engineer working for a big company. This person would never become rich in NL, but almost always become rich in the US.
  - bjornsing 5y ago
    I don’t think that measurement of social mobility makes much sense in this context. Sure, moving from lower working class to upper middle class is probably easier in Sweden than in many other countries. But the thing is: it doesn’t make much of a difference. I have a sneaking suspicion that the Nordic welfare state kind of games the social mobility score in this way, by having such a compressed income distribution. If you go from $20k after taxes to $35k after taxes you’ve moved through more or less the whole income distribution, but your life is pretty much the same.
    - oblio 5y ago
      The thing is, there's only 1 situation where being a part of a certain socioeconomic group sucks. Being poor. So any country that optimizes for improving that, kind of by definition, improves the average happiness of its citizens.
    - yunohn 5y ago
      > If you go from $20k after taxes to $35k after taxes you’ve moved through more or less the whole income distribution, but your life is pretty much the same. 100% agreed - my sibling comment about NL also implies the same.
    - ethbr0 5y ago
      The report itself [0] notes many of the contradictions in the US: > "Despite scoring high on the Work Opportunities (83.0) pillar—because of its low unemployment rate—as well as on the Technology Access pillar (90.2), it has the lowest score in the region on the Fair Wages pillar (43.8 against an average of 64.6 for the region). With an incidence of low pay (less than two-thirds of median wages) at 24.9, it has one of the shares of low-paid workers among OECD countries. The lack of effective social protection in the United States also translates into a low score on the Social Protection pillar (61.7). The minimum guaranteed income benefits for a family with two children (where one partner is out of work) is only 20% of median income. The United States could also improve on the Health pillar, where it performs quite poorly compared to peers in its region (75.8) due to a low healthy life expectancy at birth (66.6 years)." When you average things down to a single number, you lose a lot of nuance. For the US, the data the report collected generally supports something like 'You have the opportunity to succeed greatly, and be rewarded extremely well, but this requires financial resources at birth.' While also being true that 'If you are less successful, there are few and poor support nets for you, and serious pitfalls to avoid (f.ex. health care costs).' [0] https://www3.weforum.org/docs/Global_Social_Mobility_Report.pdf https://www3.weforum.org/docs/Global_Social_Mobility_Report....
  - yunohn 5y ago
    Given my experience in NL, I would disagree. I see a very clear class divide here, which is just mostly ignored by the middle/upper classes and government. Most of the population spend the majority of their income on rent, commuting, and essentials. Students also have lots of debt over the past decade (15k on average). Owning a car is expensive, but so is public transport (esp. for a family). Renting is expensive, but so is buying a house. Income tax brackets range from ~40-50%, while corporate and dividend taxes are minimal - 15-20%. VAT is regressive and applies on almost all goods incl. groceries, ranging from 5-21%. There is no capital gains taxes, so this obviously benefits the economically active upper/elite classes who have assets/savings to invest - while middle class families do not own much at all. Since the Mobility Index rankings focus on lower -> middle class mobility, it shows the Netherlands in a positive light. However, the income divide between the two classes is actually not as pronounced as the USA, while the gap between middle to upper is incredibly massive (like most of the world). I guess what I'm trying to say is that despite the expected policy differences and rankings, NL is quite strongly divided economically. In my experience, the average Dutch don't mix with the poor, nor show off their riches, nor think too deeply about the elite classes. This mindset is essentially ignorance - neglecting poorness, brushing off government corruption, and assisting the funneling of taxes & wealth.
    - charlesdm 5y ago
      You forgot to mention you do have a wealth tax. For wealthy people, those tend to be one of the "worst" taxes, because it is payable regardless of whether your investments do well or bad.
      - yunohn 5y ago
        You’re right, I missed commenting on the Wealth tax. However, it’s equally ineffective - there are multitudes of ways to avoid paying it, as the wealthy here continuously do. Further, the percentage itself is quite small: - 0.58% for 30k-100k - 1.34% till ~1MM - 1.68% afterwards. It is hilarious to me, that 30k is considered “wealth”. This means saving for your children’s studying expenses (rent, food, etc), would require exceeding 30k and paying taxes. The wealthy are wealthy. It doesn’t seem to affect them at all. Instead, people like you and I have to think about the arbitrary amount of money the gov wants to extricate from our small savings.
  - RickJWagner 5y ago
    My own experiences disagree. I have friends who started out in middle-class families and sunk lower. I also have friends who started out middle-class and rose. IMHO, the biggest factors seem to be raw intellingence, willingness to move & chase money, and some 'luck' factors. But I can't imagine a world where nobody could change fortunes given reasonably common circumstances.
- 1ris 5y ago
  Like everything, it's very different across Europe. Best case, social mobility is pretty good. Worst case it's a little worse than the US. https://www.dw.com/en/germanys-social-mobility-among-poorest-worse-than-in-the-united-states-oecd/a-44245702 https://www.dw.com/en/germanys-social-mobility-among-poorest... >In Germany, it would take a child whose parents' earnings are in the bottom 10 percent of the population six generations or 180 years to reach the average national income. >The average across the entire OECD, a group of 37 industrialized countries, is five generations. Children in low-income families in Denmark would need two generations, while children in the United States would need five generations.
- odiroot 5y ago
  Seemingly it's easy to reach the middle class, or even upgrade into upper middle class (assuming you started with middle class parents). But then there's this big gap. And people in the middle are squeezed from the both sides.
CodeGlitch 5y ago
The modern "progressive" thought-process is to feel guilty about having a good education. I went to private school in the UK and the only thing I feel is infinite gratitude to my parents for forking-out the money to send me there (they were not rich, they were both teachers).
- darkwater 5y ago
  - marcellus23 5y ago
    It’s also not his fault at all.
    - whimsicalism 5y ago
      Nobody said it was "his fault" and that is obviously not the point of the acknowledgement starting the post.
      - refurb 5y ago
        So you agree he shouldn’t feel guilty.
        hhmc 5y ago
        Sure, but thinking privilege is equatable to guilt is missing the point.
        marcellus23 5y ago
        I don’t think anyone said that. Lots of people _do_ think you should feel guilt for privilege. Pretending those people don’t exist isn’t helping the progressive movement. It’s important for progressives to acknowledge and counter the people who wave the progressive flag but espouse the opposite of progressive ideals.
Gwypaas 5y ago
With the effective marginal tax rate at 67% for regular income in Sweden, excluding VAT and other point taxes, the only real possible method is to start a company.
- mlcrypto 5y ago
- wk_end 5y ago
  So just doing some cursory research - and I admit, I'm not Swedish - 67% seems to be on the high side as far as EMTR estimates go. So I think you'd need to make a pretty hefty amount of money in Sweden to pay that much. Wikipedia, for instance, claims that the EMTR for an income of over 675 000 SEK is only 60%; Glassdoor tells me the average software engineer in Stockholm makes ~500 000 SEK (though Glassdoor estimates can be questionable). I bring this up because I don't think taxation has much to do with this. In NYC I was paying around 50% of my income towards taxes (federal, state, and local); when you factor in what I was paying towards things that the Swedish social system provides, I'm sure it amounted to very close to 60% (maybe even more!). But NYC is full of plenty of engineers or similarly well-paid professionals who've achieved financial independence. And, well, at least per Glassdoor (caveat emptor), the average software engineer gets paid literally twice as much in NYC than in Stockholm. IMO that probably has more to do with it.
  - Gwypaas 5y ago
    Starting at 540 000 SEK it jumps 20% to 64% in total. Then at 645 000 SEK the last percents. What is important to the remember which most Swedes tend to forget is the payroll tax at 31.42% on the employer side. To see how it evolves across incomes see this page (in Swedish) https://www.ekonomifakta.se/fakta/skatter/skatt-pa-arbete/marginalskatt/ https://www.ekonomifakta.se/fakta/skatter/skatt-pa-arbete/ma...
charlesdm 5y ago
Most self employed in Europe have access to similar tax policies. You could think about and approach things differently to attain a similar result. I live in Belgium with similar high income tax rates to Sweden, but I know quite a few people that I grew up with who have done very well. Better than his story. All mid 30s and all came from nothing. Even as an employee. No excuses, man. These stories might not be listed in the newspapers, but that does not mean there are none.
- bjornsing 5y ago
  You know people in Belgium who make $600k a year as employed software engineers? Yea, sure... In Sweden you can incorporate and work as a consultant. That lets you accumulate capital on the corporate side of the tax barrier so to speak. But the tax authorities can show up at any time, claim that your one man company is “overcapitalized” and force you to pay income taxes on your earnings.
  - charlesdm 5y ago
    You can't just work your way to wealth. You need to reinvest what you make into other assets and let them compound... That said, I know self employed developers making 150-200k (EUR) gross per year as contractors. But I also know employees that get allocated a few 100k/year in stock options as part of their compensation. Yes, you do need to be exceptional. And you need to be smart in the choices you make. I thought that was a given, since millions of dollars don't just come falling from the sky.
    - bjornsing 5y ago
      > That said, I know self employed developers making 150-200k (EUR) gross per year as contractors. There’s nothing unusual about that. I was making that kind of money 15 years ago. But one problem is, that’s about what I can make today as well. There is no upward mobility in pay. And it has nothing to do with ability. It’s a cultural thing. (Also, the deal is typically that you sell your social career progression. So you’ll be doing the same kind of job endlessly.) > You can't just work your way to wealth. You need to reinvest what you make into other assets and let them compound... This however is where the real problem starts: there is no way to accumulate and reinvest capital (legally), without paying massive (70-80%) taxes.
Invictus0 5y ago
Just move then, your feet aren't bolted to the ground.
- amelius 5y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ergo_decedo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ergo_decedo
- bjornsing 5y ago
  If I could give my younger self some advice it would probably be: slack off, or leave. If you are talented and enjoy slacking off then you can have a pretty nice lifestyle in Sweden. Most of the exceptionally talented engineers I know work part time as consultants.
- DogLover_ 5y ago
  You can't "just move". It is quite difficult to get into the US
  - stackbutterflow 5y ago
    Is it harder to get into the US or the EU?
    - DogLover_ 5y ago
      I am not the right person to ask. I assume it is easier getting into EU but I can't say for sure
      - VWWHFSfQ 5y ago
        Just some anecdotal experience from talking to several French people that worked at the USA company I was at on visas, USA is pretty much the hardest (of the desirable places) in the world to emigrate to. Several of them ended up going to Canada because it was significantly easier and had a reasonable tech scene in the Toronto area
    - 5y ago
garmaine 5y ago
Markus Persson?
- Shaanie 5y ago
  Of course you can always start up a successful company, but that's not really relevant in this thread.
throwaway6734 5y ago
They somewhat address this: >In a similar vein as above, I hear that it is almost impossible for talented software developers to earn similar amounts in any country besides USA. If early financial independence is a priority for you, strongly consider moving here. The easiest way to do this is probably to take a 1-year hiatus from work, and enroll in a Master’s degree in USA. Though I have also met others who moved here on a work-visa
secondo 5y ago
> There are no stories like this one where I live (in Sweden). Absolutely none. Swedish tax rates on income makes this two to three times as difficult (approaches 60% plus 30% social paid by the employer this includes RSUs as well, plus 25% VAT) but it’s nonsense to claim this doesn’t happen. I am Swedish and have made significantly more in tech than the author. So has many of my friends. With that said, the only reason I’m still in Sweden is family. The public sentiment about the future is uncomfortably racist and increasingly hostile about fortune making. If you have the mobility my advice is to move. Good luck.
- bjornsing 5y ago
  > I am Swedish and have made significantly more in tech than the author. So has many of my friends. I’m not saying there is no path to financial independence in Sweden, I’m just saying that the path the author has taken / is advocating is not one. I too know people who’ve made significantly more than the author. I’ve come close myself. But that generally involves starting a company and having other people work for you.
- Winterflow3r 5y ago
  > I am Swedish and have made significantly more in tech than the author. So has many of my friends. If you're comfortable with sharing, was it through a company exit or IPO?
  - secondo 5y ago
    Absolute majority through RSUs, which is why I’m objecting the GP’s claims. The vested stock I’ve reinvested through an ISK in a somewhat broader portfolio over time.
    - bjornsing 5y ago
      If you’ve made over a million dollars in RSUs after taxes then I must admit… I’ve never heard of anything like that. Are you sure you’re not talking about stock options in a quickly growing company/ startup?
Aeolun 5y ago
People from Sweden should have a fairly easy time emigrating to the US right?
- bjornsing 5y ago
  I don’t think so. The easiest/surest path I know of is a H1B work visa.
- foldr 5y ago
  It's a bit of a myth that it's easy for people from European countries to emigrate to the US. Generally speaking there are no special visas available. You would either have to look into getting an H1B or one of the O1 visas. The O1 route is difficult, and the H1B route, while attainable, is a big PITA, and leaves you in a rather insecure position (especially if you have a spouse).
  - fundad 5y ago
    I think it’s a reference to US leaders with European heritage use Swedish immigrants as exemplary prospects versus people from non-white nations.
    - foldr 5y ago
      The US doesn't have explicitly racist immigration laws. Being white might give you some kind of an advantage (even though it obviously shouldn't), but you'll still have to go through the same process as anyone else.
      - fundad 5y ago
        Not explicitly; I agree. I meant that while it is a myth, it is a myth perpetuated by elected officials in the US and what they say when they hold power and especially the campaign promises they make to win power.
      - anxrn 5y ago
        Not directly racist, but there's a huge difference in effective waiting times for employment based green cards by country, mainly due to the per-country cap. Roughly speaking, for similarly qualified folks applying in the EB2 category in 2021, Indian immigrants (worst case), approval can take 15+ years, while immigrants from Sweden will take 2-3 years at most (was less than a year pre-COVID).
miskid 5y ago
The opportunity described is only common in a handful of companies in handful of cities. Outside of this it is going to be rare even in the US. Since Sweden doesn't have a large presence of these companies you are going to have to move to for example Zurich or London for it to be common. It isn't a Sweden versus US thing, it's a "achieving a high level in a major company that gives you stock" versus not. The opportunity still exists in Stockholm but requires more achievement, effort and luck because it is less common in absolute terms. That said it sucks to work in Sweden because it's all about making money through inheritance, housing, stocks or contacts. But I guess that is how it is in many places these days.
- fragmede 5y ago
  GP poster is also incorrect. Prior to his passing, famous DJ Avicii is estimated to have an estate of 50 million USD; well-off enough to never work again if he didn't want to. There's also, y'know, the Royal Family. GPs post would lead you to believe that Swedish society is flat, but there are absolutely bank managers (or something, I never got a chance to ask) running around driving Porsches while the rich plebs own thirty year-old cars, or don't own cars and take public transit. There are people who can skip the line to getting housing in Stockholm by buying a flat instead of waiting in line for years for a rental property. 20-year olds in the technology field are still much better off, economically, than someone who's chosen to be circus performer or artist. However, a world-class DJ and the fact that some people are richer than others doesn't really contradict the claim that Sweden is much more egalitarian, and my previous points need to be examined within the broader culture of Sweden and Scandinavia in general. (Many Swedes commute daily into Denmark.) Having a car is convenient, but thanks to a world-class public transportation network in Stockholm, rather unnecessary. Car ownership is thus less of a deal compared to much of the US. While the privileged in Silicon Valley are trying to get "fuck you" money (more eloquently expressed as Financial Indpendence / Retiring Early - FIRE), the older Swedes I met still work, and are most proud of the days or week off their job affords and middle-class people are able to travel more than I see Americans (though a lot of that is cultural, but time off work and plane tickets+hotel is expensive).
  - beaconstudios 5y ago
ur-whale 5y ago
- mattst88 5y ago
  I think you should consider this view in the context of various country's immigration policies. Privilege definitely comes into play.
MichaelRazum 5y ago
Oh boy that is true. Honestly, everyone who is born in the US is kind of privileged compared to 99% of the world. Especially if you are willing to work hard.
- ant6n 5y ago
  The US is 4% of the world.
  - kamaal 5y ago
    The parent post to yours is actually true, being born in US indeed does wonders to ones access to opportunities, infrastructure, culture, soceity etc. The USA really makes it easy for people to win. It can be hard to notice it if you've been there all life(or at least most of it), but people like me who have spent our whole lives outside USA(Indian Citizen) and then stayed in the USA for a couple of years(for work) and returned to our home countries can absolutely relate to this. The difference is like night and day, and it's not even like remotely comparable, being born in the USA even in under privileged conditions gives you lots of edge compared to your peer group.
    - ant6n 5y ago
      I'd argue that the US awards its less priviliged citizens much less oportunity than most other industrialized countries. There's a lot of poverty in the US, and huge differences between rich, middle class, the poor and the really poor. Most are in denial about these problems, and think this situation is fine because they like to compare to developing countries with even bigger poverty issues (in this case India), forgetting that most industrialized countries actually treat their poor people better.
- tdfx 5y ago
  The US passport is an enormous privilege. As well as being a native English speaker for business purposes.
franciscop 5y ago
Downvoted because, if there are many stories like this in "poorer" Spain (my home country), I'm sure there's a non-trivial amount of stories like this in any other richer European country: https://www.reddit.com/r/SpainFIRE/ https://www.reddit.com/r/SpainFIRE/
- bjornsing 5y ago
  Sure, there are paths to financial independence in Sweden too, just not this one. I’d say most such stories probably involve starting a company and having others work for you. Some probably “succeed” by being extremely frugal. But nobody negotiates and job hops themselves to $600k a year.
throwaway55421 5y ago
Sweden is funny. Their society is explicitly designed by the well off to convince the poors that all is well. It's all very equal, just don't look behind the curtain. We all earn our 50000SEK here. The CEO? Oh, just ignore him

xwolfi 5y ago

Yeah I d say he s been dealt very bad cards, had no problem being independent growing up in Normandy, France. I think we're priviledged by not being in the US and that guy is at the top of a turd pile...

djohnston 5y ago
You read that info and figure he's the unlucky one?

sneak 5y ago

One of the biggest tragedies, in my view, is what a lovely place Europe is to live, and what utter lack (seemingly for no great underlying reason) of class mobility exists there.

dsomers 5y ago
What an absolute joke. The United States has terrible class mobility compared to the Netherlands or Germany for example. You don’t have anything to support what you said other than a skewed perspective created by American centric media. Edit: I guess the down voters here hate facts. The US scores lower on social mobility than the majority of European countries https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Social_Mobility_Index https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Social_Mobility_Index
- thesimon 5y ago
  Using a different metric the Netherlands are slightly better than the US, but Germany is slightly worse. https://www.oecd.org/els/soc/1-5%20generations.png https://www.oecd.org/els/soc/1-5%20generations.png
  - dsomers 5y ago
    And the majority of Europe is still ahead of the US, so what’s your point?
    - thegypsyking 5y ago
      I moved from Europe to the US, and so have a lot of other people who aim to become rich. In europe most rich people inherit everything, mobility to upper class is basically non existent. Here it’s Very much possible
  - dan-robertson 5y ago
    I’m kinda surprised by these numbers. My impression of the us is that many immigrants will be unskilled and have low incomes, but that their children will be much better off in comparison. So a few reasons these numbers could be this way: 1. My intuition is wrong 2. There are lots of people in low income groups where there is little i regeneration along mobility for structural reasons, or maybe immigrants children who often see the biggest improvements are excluded for some reason. 3. The chart talks about reaching mean income. Particularly in the US, mean income is higher than median income so even if achieving the latter is easier, achieving the former could be harder. To some extent the metric may disadvantage countries where the highest-earning few percent of the population earn a lot more than the median person.
  - lpv 5y ago
    That graph, and "social mobility" analysis in general, shows the movement from low income to average. This is good for a country overall, but it's irrelevant to the discussion that people are having in this thread. Most people here are more interested in the median to rich movement. Unfortunately this movement is practically impossible in countries like Sweden and NL (for an employee). Let's take a typical profile that HN users would be interested in, a top10% engineer working for a big company. This person would never become rich in NL, but almost always become rich in the US.
- bjornsing 5y ago
  I don’t think that measurement of social mobility makes much sense in this context. Sure, moving from lower working class to upper middle class is probably easier in Sweden than in many other countries. But the thing is: it doesn’t make much of a difference. I have a sneaking suspicion that the Nordic welfare state kind of games the social mobility score in this way, by having such a compressed income distribution. If you go from $20k after taxes to $35k after taxes you’ve moved through more or less the whole income distribution, but your life is pretty much the same.
  - oblio 5y ago
    The thing is, there's only 1 situation where being a part of a certain socioeconomic group sucks. Being poor. So any country that optimizes for improving that, kind of by definition, improves the average happiness of its citizens.
  - yunohn 5y ago
    > If you go from $20k after taxes to $35k after taxes you’ve moved through more or less the whole income distribution, but your life is pretty much the same. 100% agreed - my sibling comment about NL also implies the same.
  - ethbr0 5y ago
    The report itself [0] notes many of the contradictions in the US: > "Despite scoring high on the Work Opportunities (83.0) pillar—because of its low unemployment rate—as well as on the Technology Access pillar (90.2), it has the lowest score in the region on the Fair Wages pillar (43.8 against an average of 64.6 for the region). With an incidence of low pay (less than two-thirds of median wages) at 24.9, it has one of the shares of low-paid workers among OECD countries. The lack of effective social protection in the United States also translates into a low score on the Social Protection pillar (61.7). The minimum guaranteed income benefits for a family with two children (where one partner is out of work) is only 20% of median income. The United States could also improve on the Health pillar, where it performs quite poorly compared to peers in its region (75.8) due to a low healthy life expectancy at birth (66.6 years)." When you average things down to a single number, you lose a lot of nuance. For the US, the data the report collected generally supports something like 'You have the opportunity to succeed greatly, and be rewarded extremely well, but this requires financial resources at birth.' While also being true that 'If you are less successful, there are few and poor support nets for you, and serious pitfalls to avoid (f.ex. health care costs).' [0] https://www3.weforum.org/docs/Global_Social_Mobility_Report.pdf https://www3.weforum.org/docs/Global_Social_Mobility_Report....
- yunohn 5y ago
  Given my experience in NL, I would disagree. I see a very clear class divide here, which is just mostly ignored by the middle/upper classes and government. Most of the population spend the majority of their income on rent, commuting, and essentials. Students also have lots of debt over the past decade (15k on average). Owning a car is expensive, but so is public transport (esp. for a family). Renting is expensive, but so is buying a house. Income tax brackets range from ~40-50%, while corporate and dividend taxes are minimal - 15-20%. VAT is regressive and applies on almost all goods incl. groceries, ranging from 5-21%. There is no capital gains taxes, so this obviously benefits the economically active upper/elite classes who have assets/savings to invest - while middle class families do not own much at all. Since the Mobility Index rankings focus on lower -> middle class mobility, it shows the Netherlands in a positive light. However, the income divide between the two classes is actually not as pronounced as the USA, while the gap between middle to upper is incredibly massive (like most of the world). I guess what I'm trying to say is that despite the expected policy differences and rankings, NL is quite strongly divided economically. In my experience, the average Dutch don't mix with the poor, nor show off their riches, nor think too deeply about the elite classes. This mindset is essentially ignorance - neglecting poorness, brushing off government corruption, and assisting the funneling of taxes & wealth.
  - charlesdm 5y ago
    You forgot to mention you do have a wealth tax. For wealthy people, those tend to be one of the "worst" taxes, because it is payable regardless of whether your investments do well or bad.
    - yunohn 5y ago
      You’re right, I missed commenting on the Wealth tax. However, it’s equally ineffective - there are multitudes of ways to avoid paying it, as the wealthy here continuously do. Further, the percentage itself is quite small: - 0.58% for 30k-100k - 1.34% till ~1MM - 1.68% afterwards. It is hilarious to me, that 30k is considered “wealth”. This means saving for your children’s studying expenses (rent, food, etc), would require exceeding 30k and paying taxes. The wealthy are wealthy. It doesn’t seem to affect them at all. Instead, people like you and I have to think about the arbitrary amount of money the gov wants to extricate from our small savings.
- RickJWagner 5y ago
  My own experiences disagree. I have friends who started out in middle-class families and sunk lower. I also have friends who started out middle-class and rose. IMHO, the biggest factors seem to be raw intellingence, willingness to move & chase money, and some 'luck' factors. But I can't imagine a world where nobody could change fortunes given reasonably common circumstances.
1ris 5y ago
Like everything, it's very different across Europe. Best case, social mobility is pretty good. Worst case it's a little worse than the US. https://www.dw.com/en/germanys-social-mobility-among-poorest-worse-than-in-the-united-states-oecd/a-44245702 https://www.dw.com/en/germanys-social-mobility-among-poorest... >In Germany, it would take a child whose parents' earnings are in the bottom 10 percent of the population six generations or 180 years to reach the average national income. >The average across the entire OECD, a group of 37 industrialized countries, is five generations. Children in low-income families in Denmark would need two generations, while children in the United States would need five generations.
odiroot 5y ago
Seemingly it's easy to reach the middle class, or even upgrade into upper middle class (assuming you started with middle class parents). But then there's this big gap. And people in the middle are squeezed from the both sides.

CodeGlitch 5y ago

The modern "progressive" thought-process is to feel guilty about having a good education. I went to private school in the UK and the only thing I feel is infinite gratitude to my parents for forking-out the money to send me there (they were not rich, they were both teachers).

darkwater 5y ago
- marcellus23 5y ago
  It’s also not his fault at all.
  - whimsicalism 5y ago
    Nobody said it was "his fault" and that is obviously not the point of the acknowledgement starting the post.
    - refurb 5y ago
      So you agree he shouldn’t feel guilty.
      - hhmc 5y ago
        Sure, but thinking privilege is equatable to guilt is missing the point.
        marcellus23 5y ago
        I don’t think anyone said that. Lots of people _do_ think you should feel guilt for privilege. Pretending those people don’t exist isn’t helping the progressive movement. It’s important for progressives to acknowledge and counter the people who wave the progressive flag but espouse the opposite of progressive ideals.

Gwypaas 5y ago

With the effective marginal tax rate at 67% for regular income in Sweden, excluding VAT and other point taxes, the only real possible method is to start a company.

mlcrypto 5y ago
wk_end 5y ago
So just doing some cursory research - and I admit, I'm not Swedish - 67% seems to be on the high side as far as EMTR estimates go. So I think you'd need to make a pretty hefty amount of money in Sweden to pay that much. Wikipedia, for instance, claims that the EMTR for an income of over 675 000 SEK is only 60%; Glassdoor tells me the average software engineer in Stockholm makes ~500 000 SEK (though Glassdoor estimates can be questionable). I bring this up because I don't think taxation has much to do with this. In NYC I was paying around 50% of my income towards taxes (federal, state, and local); when you factor in what I was paying towards things that the Swedish social system provides, I'm sure it amounted to very close to 60% (maybe even more!). But NYC is full of plenty of engineers or similarly well-paid professionals who've achieved financial independence. And, well, at least per Glassdoor (caveat emptor), the average software engineer gets paid literally twice as much in NYC than in Stockholm. IMO that probably has more to do with it.
- Gwypaas 5y ago
  Starting at 540 000 SEK it jumps 20% to 64% in total. Then at 645 000 SEK the last percents. What is important to the remember which most Swedes tend to forget is the payroll tax at 31.42% on the employer side. To see how it evolves across incomes see this page (in Swedish) https://www.ekonomifakta.se/fakta/skatter/skatt-pa-arbete/marginalskatt/ https://www.ekonomifakta.se/fakta/skatter/skatt-pa-arbete/ma...

charlesdm 5y ago

Most self employed in Europe have access to similar tax policies. You could think about and approach things differently to attain a similar result. I live in Belgium with similar high income tax rates to Sweden, but I know quite a few people that I grew up with who have done very well. Better than his story. All mid 30s and all came from nothing. Even as an employee. No excuses, man. These stories might not be listed in the newspapers, but that does not mean there are none.

bjornsing 5y ago
You know people in Belgium who make $600k a year as employed software engineers? Yea, sure... In Sweden you can incorporate and work as a consultant. That lets you accumulate capital on the corporate side of the tax barrier so to speak. But the tax authorities can show up at any time, claim that your one man company is “overcapitalized” and force you to pay income taxes on your earnings.
- charlesdm 5y ago
  You can't just work your way to wealth. You need to reinvest what you make into other assets and let them compound... That said, I know self employed developers making 150-200k (EUR) gross per year as contractors. But I also know employees that get allocated a few 100k/year in stock options as part of their compensation. Yes, you do need to be exceptional. And you need to be smart in the choices you make. I thought that was a given, since millions of dollars don't just come falling from the sky.
  - bjornsing 5y ago
    > That said, I know self employed developers making 150-200k (EUR) gross per year as contractors. There’s nothing unusual about that. I was making that kind of money 15 years ago. But one problem is, that’s about what I can make today as well. There is no upward mobility in pay. And it has nothing to do with ability. It’s a cultural thing. (Also, the deal is typically that you sell your social career progression. So you’ll be doing the same kind of job endlessly.) > You can't just work your way to wealth. You need to reinvest what you make into other assets and let them compound... This however is where the real problem starts: there is no way to accumulate and reinvest capital (legally), without paying massive (70-80%) taxes.

Invictus0 5y ago

Just move then, your feet aren't bolted to the ground.

amelius 5y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ergo_decedo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ergo_decedo
bjornsing 5y ago
If I could give my younger self some advice it would probably be: slack off, or leave. If you are talented and enjoy slacking off then you can have a pretty nice lifestyle in Sweden. Most of the exceptionally talented engineers I know work part time as consultants.
DogLover_ 5y ago
You can't "just move". It is quite difficult to get into the US
- stackbutterflow 5y ago
  Is it harder to get into the US or the EU?
  - DogLover_ 5y ago
    I am not the right person to ask. I assume it is easier getting into EU but I can't say for sure
    - VWWHFSfQ 5y ago
      Just some anecdotal experience from talking to several French people that worked at the USA company I was at on visas, USA is pretty much the hardest (of the desirable places) in the world to emigrate to. Several of them ended up going to Canada because it was significantly easier and had a reasonable tech scene in the Toronto area
  - 5y ago

garmaine 5y ago

Markus Persson?

Shaanie 5y ago
Of course you can always start up a successful company, but that's not really relevant in this thread.

throwaway6734 5y ago

They somewhat address this: >In a similar vein as above, I hear that it is almost impossible for talented software developers to earn similar amounts in any country besides USA. If early financial independence is a priority for you, strongly consider moving here. The easiest way to do this is probably to take a 1-year hiatus from work, and enroll in a Master’s degree in USA. Though I have also met others who moved here on a work-visa

secondo 5y ago

> There are no stories like this one where I live (in Sweden). Absolutely none. Swedish tax rates on income makes this two to three times as difficult (approaches 60% plus 30% social paid by the employer this includes RSUs as well, plus 25% VAT) but it’s nonsense to claim this doesn’t happen. I am Swedish and have made significantly more in tech than the author. So has many of my friends. With that said, the only reason I’m still in Sweden is family. The public sentiment about the future is uncomfortably racist and increasingly hostile about fortune making. If you have the mobility my advice is to move. Good luck.

bjornsing 5y ago
> I am Swedish and have made significantly more in tech than the author. So has many of my friends. I’m not saying there is no path to financial independence in Sweden, I’m just saying that the path the author has taken / is advocating is not one. I too know people who’ve made significantly more than the author. I’ve come close myself. But that generally involves starting a company and having other people work for you.
Winterflow3r 5y ago
> I am Swedish and have made significantly more in tech than the author. So has many of my friends. If you're comfortable with sharing, was it through a company exit or IPO?
- secondo 5y ago
  Absolute majority through RSUs, which is why I’m objecting the GP’s claims. The vested stock I’ve reinvested through an ISK in a somewhat broader portfolio over time.
  - bjornsing 5y ago
    If you’ve made over a million dollars in RSUs after taxes then I must admit… I’ve never heard of anything like that. Are you sure you’re not talking about stock options in a quickly growing company/ startup?

Aeolun 5y ago

People from Sweden should have a fairly easy time emigrating to the US right?

bjornsing 5y ago
I don’t think so. The easiest/surest path I know of is a H1B work visa.
foldr 5y ago
It's a bit of a myth that it's easy for people from European countries to emigrate to the US. Generally speaking there are no special visas available. You would either have to look into getting an H1B or one of the O1 visas. The O1 route is difficult, and the H1B route, while attainable, is a big PITA, and leaves you in a rather insecure position (especially if you have a spouse).
- fundad 5y ago
  I think it’s a reference to US leaders with European heritage use Swedish immigrants as exemplary prospects versus people from non-white nations.
  - foldr 5y ago
    The US doesn't have explicitly racist immigration laws. Being white might give you some kind of an advantage (even though it obviously shouldn't), but you'll still have to go through the same process as anyone else.
    - fundad 5y ago
      Not explicitly; I agree. I meant that while it is a myth, it is a myth perpetuated by elected officials in the US and what they say when they hold power and especially the campaign promises they make to win power.
    - anxrn 5y ago
      Not directly racist, but there's a huge difference in effective waiting times for employment based green cards by country, mainly due to the per-country cap. Roughly speaking, for similarly qualified folks applying in the EB2 category in 2021, Indian immigrants (worst case), approval can take 15+ years, while immigrants from Sweden will take 2-3 years at most (was less than a year pre-COVID).

miskid 5y ago

The opportunity described is only common in a handful of companies in handful of cities. Outside of this it is going to be rare even in the US. Since Sweden doesn't have a large presence of these companies you are going to have to move to for example Zurich or London for it to be common. It isn't a Sweden versus US thing, it's a "achieving a high level in a major company that gives you stock" versus not. The opportunity still exists in Stockholm but requires more achievement, effort and luck because it is less common in absolute terms. That said it sucks to work in Sweden because it's all about making money through inheritance, housing, stocks or contacts. But I guess that is how it is in many places these days.

fragmede 5y ago
GP poster is also incorrect. Prior to his passing, famous DJ Avicii is estimated to have an estate of 50 million USD; well-off enough to never work again if he didn't want to. There's also, y'know, the Royal Family. GPs post would lead you to believe that Swedish society is flat, but there are absolutely bank managers (or something, I never got a chance to ask) running around driving Porsches while the rich plebs own thirty year-old cars, or don't own cars and take public transit. There are people who can skip the line to getting housing in Stockholm by buying a flat instead of waiting in line for years for a rental property. 20-year olds in the technology field are still much better off, economically, than someone who's chosen to be circus performer or artist. However, a world-class DJ and the fact that some people are richer than others doesn't really contradict the claim that Sweden is much more egalitarian, and my previous points need to be examined within the broader culture of Sweden and Scandinavia in general. (Many Swedes commute daily into Denmark.) Having a car is convenient, but thanks to a world-class public transportation network in Stockholm, rather unnecessary. Car ownership is thus less of a deal compared to much of the US. While the privileged in Silicon Valley are trying to get "fuck you" money (more eloquently expressed as Financial Indpendence / Retiring Early - FIRE), the older Swedes I met still work, and are most proud of the days or week off their job affords and middle-class people are able to travel more than I see Americans (though a lot of that is cultural, but time off work and plane tickets+hotel is expensive).
- beaconstudios 5y ago

ur-whale 5y ago

mattst88 5y ago
I think you should consider this view in the context of various country's immigration policies. Privilege definitely comes into play.

MichaelRazum 5y ago

Oh boy that is true. Honestly, everyone who is born in the US is kind of privileged compared to 99% of the world. Especially if you are willing to work hard.

ant6n 5y ago
The US is 4% of the world.
- kamaal 5y ago
  The parent post to yours is actually true, being born in US indeed does wonders to ones access to opportunities, infrastructure, culture, soceity etc. The USA really makes it easy for people to win. It can be hard to notice it if you've been there all life(or at least most of it), but people like me who have spent our whole lives outside USA(Indian Citizen) and then stayed in the USA for a couple of years(for work) and returned to our home countries can absolutely relate to this. The difference is like night and day, and it's not even like remotely comparable, being born in the USA even in under privileged conditions gives you lots of edge compared to your peer group.
  - ant6n 5y ago
    I'd argue that the US awards its less priviliged citizens much less oportunity than most other industrialized countries. There's a lot of poverty in the US, and huge differences between rich, middle class, the poor and the really poor. Most are in denial about these problems, and think this situation is fine because they like to compare to developing countries with even bigger poverty issues (in this case India), forgetting that most industrialized countries actually treat their poor people better.
tdfx 5y ago
The US passport is an enormous privilege. As well as being a native English speaker for business purposes.

franciscop 5y ago

Downvoted because, if there are many stories like this in "poorer" Spain (my home country), I'm sure there's a non-trivial amount of stories like this in any other richer European country: https://www.reddit.com/r/SpainFIRE/ https://www.reddit.com/r/SpainFIRE/

bjornsing 5y ago
Sure, there are paths to financial independence in Sweden too, just not this one. I’d say most such stories probably involve starting a company and having others work for you. Some probably “succeed” by being extremely frugal. But nobody negotiates and job hops themselves to $600k a year.

throwaway55421 5y ago

Sweden is funny. Their society is explicitly designed by the well off to convince the poors that all is well. It's all very equal, just don't look behind the curtain. We all earn our 50000SEK here. The CEO? Oh, just ignore him